What's the deal with the plot summary on blu-ray.com?
Prometheus 3D (2012)In the distant future, two superpowers control Earth and fight each other for all the solar system's natural resources. When one side dispatches a team to a distant planet to terraform it for human colonization, the team discovers an indigenous race of bio-mechanoid killers.
Was that a phony premise to throw off fans or something?
Originally posted by Patient_LeechHopefully cause that's not the movie at all lol
What's the deal with the plot summary on blu-ray.com?Was that a phony premise to throw off fans or something?
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
What's the deal with the plot summary on blu-ray.com?Was that a phony premise to throw off fans or something?
That only sounds half right. Maybe in the expanded Blu-ray, we will find out Weyland-Yutani has corporate competition on Earth, and the old superpower politics of spheres of influence has moved from political halls to boardrooms.
As for the second sentence...that sounds like the official line given for the journey of the Prometheus ship. Most of the crew was unaware of the full nature of the mission (speculating it was for terraforming, but maybe not), but they were being well paid not to ask questions.
Still, that reads like a rushed synopsis for a movie released only two weeks ago. Get closer to the date and I think there will be a more detailed one on Amazon etc.
Originally posted by roughrider
That only sounds half right. Maybe in the expanded Blu-ray, we will find out Weyland-Yutani has corporate competition on Earth, and the old superpower politics of spheres of influence has moved from political halls to boardrooms.
Ah, interesting theory. That might be interesting, but it might seem like a bit of a side-track considering the main themes and intent of the movie.
Originally posted by Newjak
1) I don't think people should just as you say put a sock in it. Regardless of whether the air was breathable they had no idea what kind of airborne bacteria/viruses could be in the air. I'll use Earth as an example. Even though we all breath the same air if we go to another part of the world where our immune system isn't adjusted for the bacteria in the world we'll likely get sick and possibly die and that's on Earth. There's no telling what separate bacteria or micro-organisms could have developed on an Alien world and our immune systems wouldn't be ready for it. There is a difference between interacting with the environment in a pressurized safe suit and actively having your body interact with foreign elements.4) It was stupid for the biologist to just go gaga over the creature. He had no idea what the creature was capable and he died because of his stupidity.
And it was stupid for them to just dismiss a ping of life as nothing. For one it means you don't trust the equipment to do what's supposed to do. Secondly not only should they have had people monitoring them at all times they should have also been recording their video feed. That way they would have no why they died.
David and Weyland still acted stupid in how they handled everything imo. Purposely infecting someone without knowing how it will turn out is stupid. Weyland was in stasis so as far as we know he wasn't in any danger of dying quickly therefore there was no need to be so brash.
I know humans can be illogical at times and do stupid things, but generally when you're supposed to have some of the smartest people interacting with a foreign and unfamiliar environment I would think their natural tendency would tend to be more cautious than what they displayed in the movie. And it ended up killing them.
Obviously the type of movie this was meant people were gonna have to die but you can have this stuff happen without them acting stupid to produce the results.
Now I don't think this kind of thing would normally bother me as bad as this, but from what I gathered this movie was supposed to make you think about some hard questions about life. Yet for such big ambitions they kind of barely hit the surface of that and the characters they used to try and bring those points home didn't work because they acted like idiots.
How am I supposed to take the very real and big questions this film tries to take into account when the film doesn't do the same with the plot or the characters.
This film had so much potential but it fell way short, and this was me going in with no expectations for the film so I wasn't walking in with a bias. At least I don't feel I did.
Originally posted by Newjak
1) I don't think people should just as you say put a sock in it. Regardless of whether the air was breathable they had no idea what kind of airborne bacteria/viruses could be in the air. I'll use Earth as an example. Even though we all breath the same air if we go to another part of the world where our immune system isn't adjusted for the bacteria in the world we'll likely get sick and possibly die and that's on Earth. There's no telling what separate bacteria or micro-organisms could have developed on an Alien world and our immune systems wouldn't be ready for it. There is a difference between interacting with the environment in a pressurized safe suit and actively having your body interact with foreign elements.4) It was stupid for the biologist to just go gaga over the creature. He had no idea what the creature was capable and he died because of his stupidity.
And it was stupid for them to just dismiss a ping of life as nothing. For one it means you don't trust the equipment to do what's supposed to do. Secondly not only should they have had people monitoring them at all times they should have also been recording their video feed. That way they would have no why they died.
David and Weyland still acted stupid in how they handled everything imo. Purposely infecting someone without knowing how it will turn out is stupid. Weyland was in stasis so as far as we know he wasn't in any danger of dying quickly therefore there was no need to be so brash.
I know humans can be illogical at times and do stupid things, but generally when you're supposed to have some of the smartest people interacting with a foreign and unfamiliar environment I would think their natural tendency would tend to be more cautious than what they displayed in the movie. And it ended up killing them.
Obviously the type of movie this was meant people were gonna have to die but you can have this stuff happen without them acting stupid to produce the results.
Now I don't think this kind of thing would normally bother me as bad as this, but from what I gathered this movie was supposed to make you think about some hard questions about life. Yet for such big ambitions they kind of barely hit the surface of that and the characters they used to try and bring those points home didn't work because they acted like idiots.
How am I supposed to take the very real and big questions this film tries to take into account when the film doesn't do the same with the plot or the characters.
What can I say, other than repeat what I said to Re: Blaxican?
1. We can chase our tails all day long about the removal of the helmets - you keep ignoring the fact their instruments said it was safe, and in the end nothing ever happened as a result becasue nothing was airborne - but take your logic of the situation to it's natural course: because their earth-based instruments can't possibly take into account something that is 'alien' to them, they were at risk of ANYTHING.
- They shouldn't have taken the head back for examination because even though they sprayed it for contagion, they couldn't possibly take everything into account because it was 'alien' so that was a stupid decision too. Luckily the head explosion that happened was just a small one; they should have anticipated something bad would have happened, bringing that head on board!
- Come to think of it, it was stupid for Peter Weyland to spend a trillion dollars to fund this mission, since no state of the art tech from Earth could be capable of taking something into account that is 'alien' in nature.
- And what was Christopher Columbus thinking 520 years ago, when he sailed for America with nothing more than a hunch about land, risking the lives of all his men? There was no proven theory the Earth was round! And how stupid were those natives to greet him - didn't they realize they had hundreds of years of enslavement and smallpox to look forward to???
Get the gist of my argument? Saying it's stupid for these characters to do something because their knowledge of something - like the air in the chamber - couldn't possibly be complete, it goes against the nature of scientific progress itself. Which is, at the end of the day, taking risks. Hopefully small ones. That's what it was when Holloway took off his helmet; their instruments said the air was fine, he took the risk to prove it was so, and he was right. Nothing bad happened from the plot as a result of him doing that.
(By the way, we go somewhere on Earth where we know for sure there is something dangerous in the air, we takes steps to cover our mouth or breathe through something else. We do generally as a race act logically to preserve our lives.)
2. Them dismissing the intermittent 'ping' as a glitch showed they were confident in their equipment. The first survey of the place showed nothing was living or moving; it was only David's later investigation of the 'ping' showed it was the last Engineer's sleep compartment.
3. What you call Weyland's and David's stupid actions, I call evidence of a arrogant, tyrannical ego. We have known this about the ruthless Weyland-Yutani corporation since the first film in 1979; everyone is expendable in the course of achieving their goals. Weyland might have considered Shaw & Holloway kindred spirits for financing the mission, but ultimately they were expendable to him, too. He refuses to step aside for his embittered daughter to take over becasue he feels immortality is something he should claim for himself, over anything or anyone else.
And Weyland chose to leave his stasis only when word of the living Engineer reached him through David. Again, he is arrogant enough to claim the first meeting with this being for himself and to get the answers he seeks. He wouldn't let anyone else in the history books claim that over him.
David's actions are not really open to criticism, since for the most part he is just following his creator's agenda and demands.
4. Sorry you don't think there is much to think about, for big questions. I have been pondering how and where the movie uses the themes of life vs. death (how that is the Engineer's grand plan, and it ultimately becomes the lifecycle for the Xenomorphs themselves) plus the theme of selflessness vs. selfishness; did we get life through the selfless sacrifice of the first Engineer we see, using the black liquid? And does that liquid become something else in the presence of selfishness?
Originally posted by Newjak
It was stupid for the biologist to just go gaga over the creature. He had no idea what the creature was capable and he died because of his stupidity.
The thing probably would have killed them anyway. It sped up the process and was meant to be symbolic of human curiosity.
Originally posted by Newjak
And it was stupid for them to just dismiss a ping of life as nothing. For one it means you don't trust the equipment to do what's supposed to do. Secondly not only should they have had people monitoring them at all times they should have also been recording their video feed. That way they would have no why they died.
Well, why would "life" appear, and then disappear? Sounds like a glitch. And there was nothing they could have done for them anyway. He informed them. That's all he could do at that time.
Originally posted by Newjak
David and Weyland still acted stupid in how they handled everything imo. Purposely infecting someone without knowing how it will turn out is stupid. Weyland was in stasis so as far as we know he wasn't in any danger of dying quickly therefore there was no need to be so brash.
You're really reaching here.
Originally posted by Newjak
I know humans can be illogical at times and do stupid things, but generally when you're supposed to have some of the smartest people interacting with a foreign and unfamiliar environment I would think their natural tendency would tend to be more cautious than what they displayed in the movie. And it ended up killing them.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." ~Albert Einstein. Even "smart" people are often only smart about one, two, or maybe three things. Whatever they deal with on a regular basis.
Originally posted by Newjak
...from what I gathered this movie was supposed to make you think about some hard questions about life. Yet for such big ambitions they kind of barely hit the surface of that and the characters they used to try and bring those points home didn't work because they acted like idiots.
So you expected to have the movie explain the meaning of life? No film is gonna do that. All it can do is pose the questions, which this film does do. You still have to come up with the answers on your own. "Try harder."
This is all speculation on your part...and it is baseless. It is also contradictory to what was seen in the movie. All we know is relations soured around 100 CE and they planned to wipe out their own creations. The purpose of the planet MAY have changed, as well. But we do know that it was once being terraformed...and all operations stopped around 100 CE.
hahahaa...I honestly can't believe you can type that with a straight face. That I'm the one speculating.
What we know from the film
1: That there were star maps in loads of different cultures pointing to the same constellation. We know that the constellation shown couldn't have been known to those cultures because it was only recently discovered through modern science. We know that image of those star maps showed one of the engineers pointing to the constellation. We know that the humans interpreted it as an invitation to go there. We know the images pre date when the engineers supposedly decided to wipe out humanity and we know the planet is used for weapons manufacturing. I point out the stupidity of those facts and you start saying the engineers MAY have changed the purpose of the planet and were terraforming it because MAYBE they were wanting to live together on it with humans in a space faring whatever...and yet I'M supposedly the one making baseless speculation?
Seriously?
You see a plothole but none exists. You are inventing plotholes so you can hate the movie more. Sorry, not plothole there, at all.
Of course it's a plot hole. Either they were giving humans a map to a planet that was only used as a weapons manufacturing planet BEFORE relations turned sour or the whole idiotic Jesus interpretation is wrong because they would've had to change the planet's purpose before they were killed by the unexplained...whatever it was that was chasing them....OR they were leaving a map for humans to a planet that had no purpose at all until the engineers got pissed at humans and then decided to make that planet a bio weapons making planet on the off chance that humans would go to it despite the fact that they were planning on wiping humans out around the time humans were still using swords for fighting wars.
"And, again, the engineers did not make the star maps, the humans did."
So the humans made star maps to a constellation they couldn't even see with unerring accuracy across cultures that never even had contact with one another. Yes...Perfect sense that one eh?...Even more stupid.
You certainly did some assuming about David, already.
Yes...The video disagrees. Quite plainly obvious from it that David was able to express emotions without feeling them.
You said you would allow a pass for LotRs for leaving tons of answered questions in the first film...but will not do so for Prometheus.
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
Before LotR was made...The story was finished...written...You know it has an end and you know the story is split into 3 parts.
Prometheus is half a story...The conclusion of which only has a basic plot written by a writer who might not even be involved in the sequel. A sequel that might not even be made. Yet apparently it's fine to have millions of people pay to go see a story that isn't finished and might never be finished...That's disgraceful. Yet I'm a hypocrite for pointing that out?...No...I don't think so.
It had a book version, sure, but the films were not finished and we had no way of knowing how it was going to be done/turn out. TONS of stuff was cut from the first book before it hit the big screen.
Yes I'm aware of that. Was the story still complete?...Yes...Thus my point.
Seems like he likes the way Hemmingway writes. I do not care for that story telling method, myself; but, unlike you, I was not devastated by the ending in Prometheus because we were pretty much promised another film. Since Scott has pretty much stated at least another film is coming (he said it would IF Prometheus did well...and it did well. It has almost made it's budget back, just domestically, much less with the worldwide earnings being included), I am quite happy with Prometheus because I get to sink my teeth into another movie that will answer some questions and possibly provide more.
You were happy with the ending?...Deary me.
TV release?
Sky movies...Probably about a year after the cinema release...If that happens.
"I said to him, we should be prepared for people to feel frustrated if we’re going to be withholding, so we have to be very careful about what we’re saving for later," he continues. "Because it’s not a foregone conclusion that there are going to be sequels, and so if there isn’t a sequel, just be comfortable with what we gave them in this movie."
Yeah...I wasn't comfortable with what they gave us in the movie...What with it not being a finished story. As annoying as the Sopranos ending....Well...Maybe not quite as annoying as that.
And Lindelof stated the the gist of the second Prometheus film has been discussed out. He also said he thinks it would benefit being in "new hands" which is all good news for you:
Even David Goyer would do a better job than Lindelof. So here's hoping Lindelof isn't involved.
So that is not a plothole, per se. It is an intentional plothole that Scott was keenly aware of...because of what you (Jaden) said: he wants another movie or two.
Well here's hoping he doesn't go with Lindelof. Otherwise he'll do what he does best. String people along for forever and a day...Go on strike for a while and write a shitty ending that doesn't even go anywhere to explaining half the stuff brought up during the whole story...Most likely cos he'd forgotten what he'd written and never bothered his arse looking back at it for continuity cos he's a lazy ****ing **** of a shit writer.
Anyway. I'll go back to some other daft shit I've thought of from the movie.
You seem hung up on this 2000 year ago thing...Lets look at what that figure is based on in the film.
She's an archaeologist. Which is the study of ancient civilizations by studying material culture. That's not a specialty of identifying or dating remains otherwise she'd be a forensic anthropologist. She makes a 5 second examination of a species she's never encountered in an environment she's never been in and which is covered in a exoskeleton/biosuit she's never encountered and yet she can date it to 2000 years ago with that 5 second examination.
Strange. It really could mean that the 2000 year old number could be just plucked out the air...Just like Vickers saying she'd travelled half a billion miles away from every man on earth...That figure is obviously also just pulled out of the writers arse as that would make the planet just past Jupiter.
Another thing we have to take for granted is that the black goo really was a bio weapon and that the engineers really were planning to wipe humanity out...Who do we have to thank for this wonderful revelation?...Janek...The captain who has no knowledge of anything on which to base that claim...Yet somehow everyone believes him so it must be true...Maybe the engineer wasn't flying away to destroy earth...Maybe he was flying away cos he know something killed all the other engineers and he wanted to get the **** outta there. But no...Janek knows...Janek is the ultimate bad ass knower guy. He can know stuff without having any way of knowing that stuff...bad ass knower.
What's the deal with the plot summary on blu-ray.com? quote: Prometheus 3D (2012) In the distant future, two superpowers control Earth and fight each other for all the solar system's natural resources. When one side dispatches a team to a distant planet to terraform it for human colonization, the team discovers an indigenous race of bio-mechanoid killers. Was that a phony premise to throw off fans or something?
Probably to do with the extended info from the website and all the pre-existing stuff about the Weyland and Yutani competition.
That only sounds half right. Maybe in the expanded Blu-ray, we will find out Weyland-Yutani has corporate competition on Earth, and the old superpower politics of spheres of influence has moved from political halls to boardrooms. As for the second sentence...that sounds like the official line given for the journey of the Prometheus ship. Most of the crew was unaware of the full nature of the mission (speculating it was for terraforming, but maybe not), but they were being well paid not to ask questions. Still, that reads like a rushed synopsis for a movie released only two weeks ago. Get closer to the date and I think there will be a more detailed one on Amazon etc.
I think a film about how Weyland took over Yutani would be interesting and a decent thriller. Especially if it went into a lot of the stuff that's mentioned about Weyland's inventions over the years...All the stuff that's mentioned on the Project Prometheus website.
People need to cut Damon Lindelof a little slack; just because he said what he said and he was behind LOST - I know some won't forgive him, but they are taking his words out of context.
Many big works of fiction aren't completely thought out ahead of time. George Lucas had a large outline for the Star Wars OT but not every plot development had been thought out yet. In the postscript for his first Dark Tower novel - which would take decades of Stephen King's life to finish - he confessed he didn't know where this would all go, or how long it would take to finish the journey. Only that somewhere inside, he did know, and it would take time to find out. So it's not like this is David Lynch and his advice is 'It all makes sense if you're dreaming.' Just give them time to find it.
The idea that Elizabeth Shaw is going to confront the Engineers on their home planet..is so huge...it can go so many ways to furthering the narrative towards Alien.
Originally posted by jaden101
hahahaa...I honestly can't believe you can type that with a straight face.
I did not type it with a straight face: I typed it with a gay one. 😐
Originally posted by jaden101
That I'm the one speculating.
Sure are. 🙂
What we know from the film
Originally posted by jaden101
1: That there were star maps in loads of different cultures
7 civilizations, I believe.
Originally posted by jaden101
pointing to the same constellation. We know that the constellation shown couldn't have been known to those cultures because it was only recently discovered through modern science.
I do not believe that this is correct. The stars would still be visible. It is the idea that there is a earth-like planet there that was discovered. It was not a planet, though: it was a moon.
Originally posted by jaden101
We know that image of those star maps showed one of the engineers pointing to the constellation.
Something that the humans painted, not the engineers. And the humans also were worshiping the Engineer.
Originally posted by jaden101
We know that the humans interpreted it as an invitation to go there.
Only some interpreted it that way: Shaw and Holloway. But not Weyland.
Originally posted by jaden101
We know the images pre date when the engineers supposedly decided to wipe out humanity and we know the planet is used for weapons manufacturing.
We know that the moon had a germ-warfare depot that was going to be used against earth's humans due to a souring of relations around 100 CE. We know that terraforming operations had pretty much ceased due to a disaster on that moon but we do not know what exactly happened....other than they were being attacked by Xenomorphs (burst open chests a la classic aliens).
Originally posted by jaden101
I point out the stupidity of those facts
None of those "facts" are stupid and your "facts" were not exactly spot on, either.
Originally posted by jaden101
and you start saying the engineers MAY have changed the purpose of the planet
They very well may have.
Originally posted by jaden101
and were terraforming it because MAYBE they were wanting to live together on it with humans in a space faring whatever...and yet I'M supposedly the one making baseless speculation?
Oh, so now you're redirecting my points towards another point of my where I am explicitly speculating, huh?
Originally posted by jaden101
Seriously?
Well, if you would keep portions of the conversation within the same thread, you would be able to form a coherent argument against my accusation against your speculation.
Here's what you were speculating about:
"If the engineers were planning on wiping out humanity 2000 years before the events of Prometheus then they would've know that humans were nowhere near achieving interstellar travel and so would've had no reason to change what the planet was being used for..."
But you're trying to redirect the attention from your speculation to a point I made that was clearly speculation. Not happening. And I clearly pointed out where you were speculating in that point, as well. 🙂
Originally posted by jaden101
Of course it's a plot hole. Either they were giving humans a map to a planet that was only used as a weapons manufacturing planet BEFORE relations turned sour or the whole idiotic Jesus interpretation is wrong because they would've had to change the planet's purpose before they were killed by the unexplained...whatever it was that was chasing them....OR they were leaving a map for humans to a planet that had no purpose at all until the engineers got pissed at humans and then decided to make that planet a bio weapons making planet on the off chance that humans would go to it despite the fact that they were planning on wiping humans out around the time humans were still using swords for fighting wars.
That's all speculation on your part. 🙂 However, the Jesus theory has been confirmed by both Scott and Lindelof. The specific reference to Jesus was removed to keep out of trouble, but it's confirmed that it was the events surrounding Jesus' death that caused relations to sour.
But, here's one small problem with your speculation: humans are virtually identical, genetically, to the Engineers. Their technology was coming along just fine. You (ambiguous "you", not "Jaden" you) would have to be pretty dumb if you thought the humans would stagnate technologically: the Engineers were not that dumb. They made some plans to wipe them out. However...something happened...for all we know, all of the Engineers are dead minus a few in hypersleep. We just do not know why the Engineers did not pick up right after the accident on LV-223. They abandoned those plans OR they were completely wiped out. That's all we know and all we will get until the second film. Based on Scott's wording, he used "are", not "were" when referring to traits of the Engineers. Sounds like he plans for them to be alive.
And, no, they did not make that moon a "bioweapons making" planet on the off-chance that they made it to the moon. That's retarded. It was 100CE: there was no way they were creating a contingency plan for the humans arriving onto that moon when they did not possess the technology to get there: they were planning a mass extinction of humankind and seemed to be just about done with their prep (I believe David said that the ship had a course charted for earth so they were literally just about to haul ass to earth and WTF rape us).
Originally posted by jaden101
So the humans made star maps to a constellation they couldn't even see with unerring accuracy across cultures that never even had contact with one another.
Correction: they painted star maps to some stars that they could clearly see with the naked eye.
Originally posted by jaden101
Yes...Perfect sense that one eh?...Even more stupid.
Um. Yes. It does make perfect sense. You're creating false problems that literally do not exist.
I'll explain it to you: Engineers are living among humans for tens of thousands of years. Humans make star maps. The only thing missing is at some point, the humans got a common thread from the Engineers about that particular star formation. We do not know how it was communicated or why it was communicated. The "how" and the "why" can only be explained with speculation. None of that is even remotely close to "stupid".
Originally posted by jaden101
Yes...The video disagrees.
It does, with you.
Originally posted by jaden101
Quite plainly obvious from it that David was able to express emotions without feeling them.
Quite plainly obvious that David expressed emotions he was not supposed to be expressing. Looks like you missed out on the best writing in the film because of your clear anti-Prometheus bias. Too bad.
Originally posted by jaden101
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
No, but you definitely going out of your way to not understand why you are being hypocritical. It's quite a stretch on your part, for sure.
Originally posted by jaden101
Before LotR was made...The story was finished...written...You know it has an end and you know the story is split into 3 parts.
Before the LotR Trilogy was made, we had no idea which elements would change, which elements would be eliminated, and how the events would unfold. Knowing the ending in no way changes my point.
Prometheus: we already know that, at some point, the events of the Prometheus film become irrelevant to the Alien universe. We do know that the Aliens eventually come forth n'such. But keep pretending that you're not being a hypocrite: at least it will make you feel better about your clear bias against Prometheus.
Originally posted by jaden101
Prometheus is half a story...
And so is LotR. LotR has so much unexplained story going on it is absurd. It has more missing lore and stories than any 20 sci-fi movies you can put together. For one, what is Sauron's back story? Why did he wage a war? Where did he come from? What is his relation with Gandalf? What does the whole planet of middle earth look like? Why did Sarumon start serving Sauron? How did the elves become immortal or why are they immortal (if they did not become that way). Man, there's like thousands of these things just from LotR, alone, that make your point seem absurdly hypocritical. You probably chose the absolute worst example to make your point about Prometheus. I am literally at a loss for any other movie trilogy that could have been a worse choice in a comparison to Prometheus' explained plot points. Can you think of a worse example (you may be able to, but I couldn't).
Originally posted by jaden101
The conclusion of which only has a basic plot written by a writer who might not even be involved in the sequel. A sequel that might not even be made. Yet apparently it's fine to have millions of people pay to go see a story that isn't finished and might never be finished...That's disgraceful. Yet I'm a hypocrite for pointing that out?...No...I don't think so.
Scott will be involved, for sure. Lindelof may not be back, though. The sequel will be made...we just haven't gotten an official announcement from Fox, yet.
And as far as "stories that aren't finished" in movies, yeah, that's just about every single film ever made. Almost all movies do not finish out all plot points. Very few do the Disney "and this is what happened after the movie" happily ever after endings.
And, yes, you're a hypocrite for using one of the most "missing plot" movie trilogies in the history of cinema as an example of a "finished product that Prometheus fails to live up to".
Originally posted by jaden101
Yes I'm aware of that. Was the story still complete?...Yes...Thus my point.
No, the story is still not complete. 🙂
Originally posted by jaden101
You were happy with the ending?...Deary me.
Yup. Just the same as you being happy with the ending of Return of the King. Why did they go to Valinor or why did they have to go there? Why did Frodo go? Where is it? What is the significance to other lands/places?
Oh, right, you would have to have asked the author about it, just like people did to Scott about the nature of the Engineers, for why they went to the undying lands:
Read Letter 154.
Here is an excerpt.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Aman
In Tolkien's own words: "I have said nothing about it in this book..."
Oh snap...
Guess you should not have used LotR as your example, huh? 🙂
Originally posted by jaden101
Sky movies...Probably about a year after the cinema release...If that happens.
We have to get cable, here, to watch movies a year after release.
Originally posted by jaden101
Yeah...I wasn't comfortable with what they gave us in the movie...What with it not being a finished story. As annoying as the Sopranos ending....Well...Maybe not quite as annoying as that.
AHA! Another one that is definitely worse than Prometheus: the Soprano's ending.
Originally posted by jaden101
Even David Goyer would do a better job than Lindelof. So here's hoping Lindelof isn't involved.
I do not care for Lindelof's inability to actually finish a story.
Originally posted by jaden101
Well here's hoping he doesn't go with Lindelof. Otherwise he'll do what he does best. String people along for forever and a day...Go on strike for a while and write a shitty ending that doesn't even go anywhere to explaining half the stuff brought up during the whole story...Most likely cos he'd forgotten what he'd written and never bothered his arse looking back at it for continuity cos he's a lazy ****ing **** of a shit writer.
I agree about everything. You're preaching to the choir.
Originally posted by jaden101
Anyway. I'll go back to some other daft shit I've thought of from the movie.You seem hung up on this 2000 year ago thing...Lets look at what that figure is based on in the film.
K?
Originally posted by jaden101
She's an archaeologist. Which is the study of ancient civilizations by studying material culture. That's not a specialty of identifying or dating remains otherwise she'd be a forensic anthropologist. She makes a 5 second examination of a species she's never encountered in an environment she's never been in and which is covered in a exoskeleton/biosuit she's never encountered and yet she can date it to 2000 years ago with that 5 second examination.
lol
Guess you missed the mentioning, twice (maybe 3 times) of them making a radiometric reading. They used future tech to get a radiometric dating of the alien. So now you're going to ignore future sci-fi tech just to argue a point that goes directly against what is seen in the movie? Cool. Just don't mind me if I do not take anything you typed up, next, seriously or cogent, at all.
Originally posted by jaden101
Strange. It really could mean that the 2000 year old number could be just plucked out the air...Just like Vickers saying she'd travelled half a billion miles away from every man on earth...That figure is obviously also just pulled out of the writers arse as that would make the planet just past Jupiter.
The number wasn't pulled out of thin air, covered that already.
You need to watch the film again, for sure.
Vickers was also using an idiom and was not making a literal statement. It is comparable to saying, "we are a million miles out in the middle of nowhere). The movie told us how far away the star system was: 3.27 * 10 ^14 km from Earth. That's a bit over 39 lightyears.
So, in otherwords, Neil deGrasse Tyson does not have a clear understanding of English language idioms, you're parroting him, and you did not pay attention to the film because you missed that they were actually 3.27 * 10 ^14 km from Earth. Am I surprised? No. You missed all of the emotional bits from David and concluded he was an emotional-less automaton so it should be no shock that you missed how far away they actually were. I know, tough love...I'm being a jerk.
Originally posted by jaden101
Another thing we have to take for granted is that the black goo really was a bio weapon and that the engineers really were planning to wipe humanity out...Who do we have to thank for this wonderful revelation?...Janek...The captain who has no knowledge of anything on which to base that claim...
He seemed to be basing it off of his military experience and intuition. Oh, and...he was the only one that was not an idiot on the ship. He also got to observe lots of the video feed stuff so he could have based it on...you know...what he actually saw rather than pulling it out of thin air like you suggest.
Originally posted by jaden101
Yet somehow everyone believes him so it must be true...
So Shaw is 'everyone', huh? Nah. It was Shaw and his two pilots.
Originally posted by jaden101
Maybe the engineer wasn't flying away to destroy earth...
You missed the part where David stated that the course was set for earth and that the Engineers were going there to wipe them out, huh? Now, you COULD argue that David made that stuff up. Then I may agree that it is possible, though contradictory to both the Engineer's reaction and David's words.
Most writers start a piece of work with an arc in mind and an idea for an ending...Lindelof seems to have an idea for an interesting start for a story...begins it and then has no clue where it will end or how to end it....Which wouldn't be a problem if people didn't start making his writing into anything...But they do...and that's the problem.
As for Shaw going to the engineers on their home planet to further the narrative towards Alien...Scott already said that any sequel would be to "tangentialize further from Alien" rather than towards it.
Originally posted by roughrider
People need to cut Damon Lindelof a little slack; just because he said what he said and he was behind LOST - I know some won't forgive him, but they are taking his words out of context.
Many big works of fiction aren't completely thought out ahead of time. George Lucas had a large outline for the Star Wars OT but not every plot development had been thought out yet. In the postscript for his first Dark Tower novel - which would take decades of Stephen King's life to finish - he confessed he didn't know where this would all go, or how long it would take to finish the journey. Only that somewhere inside, he did know, and it would take time to find out. So it's not like this is David Lynch and his advice is 'It all makes sense if you're dreaming.' Just give them time to find it.
To what, exactly, are you referring? What words are people taking out of context?
Originally posted by roughrider
The idea that Elizabeth Shaw is going to confront the Engineers on their home planet..is so huge...it can go so many ways to furthering the narrative towards Alien.
Yeah, man. I'm f%cking psyched about it. I think she's gonna have some trouble getting off the planet, though, now that that alien hatched out of the Engineer. I bet that things gonna start some shit, maybe even reproduce... a few times.. heh
Ridley on the sequel (this was just six days ago)...
"From the very beginning, I was working from a premise that lent itself to a sequel," says Scott. "I really don't want to meet God in the first one. I want to leave it open to Shaw saying, 'I don’t want to go back to where I came from. I want to go where they came from.'"Scott went on to refer to the fact that the original title for Prometheus was going to be Paradise, intimating that Paradise would probably now be the title of the sequel.
"I'd love to explore where [Dr. Shaw] goes next and what does she do when she gets there," says Scott, "because if it is paradise, paradise can not be what you think it is. Paradise has a connotation of being extremely sinister and ominous."
"Because [the Engineers] are such aggressive f#ckers," he continues, "I always had it in there that the God-like creature that you will see actually is not so nice, and is certainly not God." Sounds to us like a sequel is a matter of when and not if...
👆
No, but you definitely going out of your way to not understand why you are being hypocritical. It's quite a stretch on your part, for sure.
I'm not being hypocritical...You're just being stupid.
Before the LotR Trilogy was made, we had no idea which elements would change, which elements would be eliminated, and how the events would unfold. Knowing the ending in no way changes my point.
We're not discussing you crap points...We're discussing my great points...
Prometheus: we already know that, at some point, the events of the Prometheus film become irrelevant to the Alien universe. We do know that the Aliens eventually come forth n'such. But keep pretending that you're not being a hypocrite: at least it will make you feel better about your clear bias against Prometheus.
My bias against Prometheus?...My 1st post I actually posted some positives about the film...I actually wanted to like it...It's one of the few movies of the last few years that I had reasonably high expectations of...It's not my fault it turned out to be so riddled with holes that it's difficult to ignore them. You seem to have wanted to like it and are blindly ignoring those holes or making baseless assumptions to plug them to try and justify liking a film that is, at best, extremely flawed.
And so is LotR. LotR has so much unexplained story going on it is absurd. It has more missing lore and stories than any 20 sci-fi movies you can put together. For one, what is Sauron's back story? Why did he wage a war? Where did he come from? What is his relation with Gandalf? What does the whole planet of middle earth look like? Why did Sarumon start serving Sauron? How did the elves become immortal or why are they immortal (if they did not become that way). Man, there's like thousands of these things just from LotR, alone, that make your point seem absurdly hypocritical. You probably chose the absolute worst example to make your point about Prometheus. I am literally at a loss for any other movie trilogy that could have been a worse choice in a comparison to Prometheus' explained plot points. Can you think of a worse example (you may be able to, but I couldn't).
This really is becoming tedious...You're just being absolutely ridiculous now...It's like saying every film about everyone isn't a self contained story because it doesn't show you them being born...and their parents and grandparents being born and every thing that has happened throughout the entire universe since the big bang and everything else that happens after they die until the end of time.
The Lord of the Rings has a beginning of a story arc and and end of a story arc...The War of the Ring
Prometheus has beginning of a story arc..."We've found evidence across the world of an alien species effecting human development across the whole planet...Lets go and try and find them"...By the end of the movie it's a case of "lets go keep trying to find them and see how many more of these open ended films we can get away with until someone writes a decent ending"...and in the middle we get tons and tons of epic stupidity and plot holes you could fit the LV star system through.
No, the story is still not complete.
Either you're trolling or you're an idiot...Either way...kindly do one.
In Tolkien's own words: "I have said nothing about it in this book..."
Is it needed for the story arc of Lord of the Rings?...No.
Are the engineers needed for the story arc of Prometheus?...Yes
Difference.
Here would be a simple summary of those two film's plot lines.
LotR...We set out to destroy the ring...we destroyed the ring
Prometheus....We set out to find our creator...We'll get back to you on that one...maybe.
We have to get cable, here, to watch movies a year after release.
I'm guessing sky tv will be much like US cable...paid subscription service with different packages dependant on price?...Sky is blocked into sections...pay x amount to get so many sports channels...y amount to get so many movie channels....other add ons too...lifestyle...childrens...etc etc...Only thing I object to is it's Sky which is News Corp and they are a wretched hive of scum and villainy but unfortunately Richard Branson's virgin media is a poor alternative...
You need to watch the film again, for sure.
I probably do...but I probably wont.
The movie told us how far away the star system was: 3.27 * 10 ^14 km from Earth. That's a bit over 39 lightyears.
Did it?...When was that...Must've missed it...Must've been laughing at one of the other ridiculous plot holes at that point.
You missed all of the emotional bits from David and concluded he was an emotional-less automaton so it should be no shock that you missed how far away they actually were. I know, tough love...I'm being a jerk.
1....No...I didn't miss them...It's not hard to miss obvious facial expressions...It's also not hard to understand from the David video that he doesn't have emotions yet he knows how to mimic them as it makes him more easily fit in with humans.
As for you being a "jerk"(really detest that shitty Americanism)...Yeah...No change there....
😉
So Shaw is 'everyone', huh? Nah. It was Shaw and his two pilots.
Ok...I'll change that to "everyone who wasn't already dead"
He seemed to be basing it off of his military experience and intuition. Oh, and...he was the only one that was not an idiot on the ship. He also got to observe lots of the video feed stuff so he could have based it on...you know...what he actually saw rather than pulling it out of thin air like you suggest.
So what would he have seen on the video feeds and with his eyes?...Not the deaths of the 2 idiot scientists cos he wasn't getting his video feed. He did see the pile of engineer bodies...he did see the freaky reanimated corpse of Fifield and he did see Hollway getting burned like the pointless idiotic ***** he was (who realises their infected with something and then decides the best thing to do is keep it secret and then have unprotected sex with the love of their life?...Another lovely stupid bit of PIS). At best he made an extremely huge leap with little the tiniest bit of info....Surely a better discovery of the engineers plan could've been written than that. Surely.
I do not believe that this is correct. The stars would still be visible. It is the idea that there is a earth-like planet there that was discovered. It was not a planet, though: it was a moon.
Not 100% but I think I remember someone saying something along the lines of "there's no way these cultures could've know about this constellation" or something along those lines.
They very well may have.
Oh, so now you're redirecting my points towards another point of my where I am explicitly speculating, huh?
Yes...That's the point...I'm taking what the film showed and pointing out why it doesn't make sense...You're taking what the film showed...adding extra stuff in by speculating and then saying it does makes sense but only if we take that speculation into account.
We shouldn't have to write extra bits to the story for the film makers in our heads in order for it to make sense.
But you're trying to redirect the attention from your speculation to a point I made that was clearly speculation. Not happening. And I clearly pointed out where you were speculating in that point, as well.
Again, I'm pointing out that what we're shown makes no sense.
...
Even if we take into account some of your point and add them in lets see what we end up with...From the top.
The engineers come to Earth and from 30,000 years ago begin to influence human development. They do this in 7 known different cultures across the space of as much as 28,000 years. Either they make cave drawings pointing to the same constellation in each of these cultures or they tell humans about this constellation in some way and that inspired those humans to draw the cave paintings themselves.
What is the significance of this constellation at the time the cave paintings were made we do not know. Either way they are pointing humans towards this constellation.
So humans go there and find out that the engineers have been dead for 2000 years. They find out that the planet has no purpose as of 2093 other than being a place where the engineers manufactured biological weapons. They find out that 2000 years ago the engineers planned on using those biological weapons to wipe out humanity.
We do not know what the purpose of the planet was prior to 2000 years ago...
So what can we conclude about the constellation the star maps were pointing to and that planet in particular?
Either the engineers wanted humans to come to the planet at some point in their future while they were still on good terms with the humans which would mean the planet would have to have had some significance other than being a bio weapons manufacturing planet prior to 2000 years ago. This would also mean that they would've had to begin to change the purpose of the planet prior to 2000 years ago...If the planet were in some way significant to the engineers then you could reasonably assume that it may have had far more "stuff" on it than what is seen in the film (a few artificial skull topped "buildings" Therefor it wouldn't be a huge leap to say that they would've had to start changing the purpose of the planet a reasonably long time before 2000 years ago. (I'm sure if humans had to move to another planet now and in doing so leave little to no trace of their existence on earth then it would take quite a long time to clear the planet of man made "stuff".)
Another assumption would be that they were pointing humans towards a planet they hadn't actually done anything to...yet...Which would seem a bit odd...Maybe they had a long term plan to have the planet ready for when the humans eventually came.
Maybe after things went sour they decided to use that planet to make biological weapons to kill all the humans instead. But then that's quite odd if it's tied in with either of the above explanations cos it would either mean that either that instead of just making the bioweapons elsewhere, they decided to ship everything off the planet they were going to welcome the humans to in order to make way for weapons manufacturing (which would be akin to dismantling and moving an entire city to make way for a factory rather than just building the factory somewhere else) or they started to terraform an entire planet just to build a few weapons factories. Which also seems a tad extreme.
I don't know...maybe they needed a specific resource on that planet to make the weapons...but then why would you point humans in the direction of a planet with those specific resources?
These obviously use a whole load of speculation but if we use only what we see in the film then the star maps were drawn 30,000 years ago (and after) pointing humans to a planet where, when humans got there, seen that it was a place where the engineers who inspired the star maps had made loads of weapons and were about to wipe out human life on earth until they were stopped by something.
I'll write more later...It's 4:25am here and I have to get up for work in a few hours.
Originally posted by jaden101
Even if we take into account some of your point and add them in lets see what we end up with...From the top.The engineers come to Earth and from 30,000 years ago begin to influence human development.
That's not a point I made.
We do not know when they came to earth and started influencing humanity. We do know, however, that it goes as far back as 30,000 years ago.
Originally posted by jaden101
They do this in 7 known different cultures across the space of as much as 28,000 years. Either they make cave drawings pointing to the same constellation in each of these cultures or they tell humans about this constellation in some way and that inspired those humans to draw the cave paintings themselves.
That's all speculation. There is also the possibility that it was a warning to the humans against the Aliens, as some of speculated.
My speculative money is on your last example: they told us about it in some way and we chronicled/documented it.
Originally posted by jaden101
What is the significance of this constellation at the time the cave paintings were made we do not know. Either way they are pointing humans towards this constellation.
Agreed.
Originally posted by jaden101
So humans go there and find out that the engineers have been dead for 2000 years.
You missed some big steps in there.
Here's what you left out before you get to that point:
Humans develop intersteller, FTL, travel. Humans find those various things. Humans put together the common thread and two scientists speculate that it was an invitation (and they are both woefully and pitifully optimistic when even their financier is not). So the two scientists get funding to visit the constellation AFTER some gravimetric data indicates that one of the planets in the star system has, POTENTIALLY, orbiting moons that MUST be able to support life (gigantic leaps of faith...but the evidence of extraterrestrial influence on the various art findings is overwhelming which makes their conclusion not entirely baseless nor unscientific).
Then a major corporation, which is capable of putting together over a trillion dollars, is able to fund, supply, and hire people for this mission.
Then they travel to the planet. Scan it both instrumentally and visually quite a bit and find a structure system that is too perfect to be naturally occurring ("because God doesn't draw in straight lines"😉. THEN they form an expedition to one of the structures. Then they find out, through an android's efforts, that the aliens were in the middle of planning something when some shit hit the fan and they all died (that's what they assumed, for quite a while...but we later find out that they all did not die).
Originally posted by jaden101
They find out that the planet has no purpose as of 2093 other than being a place where the engineers manufactured biological weapons. They find out that 2000 years ago the engineers planned on using those biological weapons to wipe out humanity.
Indeed. No speculation required, there...if we are to believe David, that is.
Originally posted by jaden101
We do not know what the purpose of the planet was prior to 2000 years ago...
We do, actually. It was being terraformed to be suitable for human-like life. Worst case-scenario: it was being terraformed for the engineers. Best case scenario: it was being terraformed for a cohabitative planet for both humans and Engineers.
Originally posted by jaden101
So what can we conclude about the constellation the star maps were pointing to and that planet in particular?
Tons of things but nothing definitive.
Originally posted by jaden101
Either the engineers wanted humans to come to the planet at some point in their future while they were still on good terms with the humans which would mean the planet would have to have had some significance other than being a bio weapons manufacturing planet prior to 2000 years ago.
This is a good theory, imo. It is sound, seems to fit in line with the "helpful to humans for thousands of years and then shit got sour overnight 2000 years ago, for some unknown reason".
Originally posted by jaden101
This would also mean that they would've had to begin to change the purpose of the planet prior to 2000 years ago...
Not really. A change like that could literally occur, overnight (excluding travel time between their homeworld or nearest majorly colonized planet). No lengthy change required.
HOWEVER, those underground bunkers seemed to be rather.... purposeful. Seems that the planning and construction of that activity took quite a while unless they had industrial replicators and tireless robots. Based on the fact that it was due to the killing of Jesus, we know the exact reason, we know that the relations soured then, and that it probably took them a couple of decades to change the direction of the planet to a military installation (IF that was the plan, all along).
Originally posted by jaden101
If the planet were in some way significant to the engineers then you could reasonably assume that it may have had far more "stuff" on it than what is seen in the film (a few artificial skull topped "buildings".
I agree. The engineers lost a lot of interest in the planet, for some odd reason. That's another actual plothole that I would like explored (pun intended). Why did they just stop giving a **** about the installation when it failed?
Originally posted by jaden101
Therefor it wouldn't be a huge leap to say that they would've had to start changing the purpose of the planet a reasonably long time before 2000 years ago. (I'm sure if humans had to move to another planet now and in doing so leave little to no trace of their existence on earth then it would take quite a long time to clear the planet of man made "stuff".)
How long is "long time"? 30 years? 60 years? That's about as much time as you can get from the death of Christ to when they were JUST about to leave.
And I do not subscribe to the idea that "humans reached LV-223" theory. They didn't. Well...........lemme rephrase. The Xenomorphs were the cause of the problems as the chests were "burst" through like classic Aliens. Whether or not some humans tagged along like stowaways and then sabotaged the Engineers, we do not know. But Xenos were involved. And the engineers were keenly aware of the Xenos as they had a mural of one in a crucifix position.
Originally posted by jaden101
Another assumption would be that they were pointing humans towards a planet they hadn't actually done anything to...yet...Which would seem a bit odd...Maybe they had a long term plan to have the planet ready for when the humans eventually came.
Originally posted by jaden101
Maybe after things went sour they decided to use that planet to make biological weapons to kill all the humans instead. But then that's quite odd if it's tied in with either of the above explanations cos it would either mean that either that instead of just making the bioweapons elsewhere, they decided to ship everything off the planet they were going to welcome the humans to in order to make way for weapons manufacturing (which would be akin to dismantling and moving an entire city to make way for a factory rather than just building the factory somewhere else) or they started to terraform an entire planet just to build a few weapons factories. Which also seems a tad extreme.
Indeed. No actual explanation was given. We do not even know the significance of those star maps. We only have the, in retrospect, faulty interpretation of those maps as being "invitations". We know better. The "those were warnings" theory is beginning to sound more and more correct the more I read your words. It makes what you're saying make more sense. If those were warnings, then there does not need to be a shift in the purpose of the planet: it was always a military installation and it may have been a remote colony through which their planetary bioweapons were manufactured. It then makes sense to assume humans tried to sabotage them (like the stowaway theory) and released some xenos.
Originally posted by jaden101
I don't know...maybe they needed a specific resource on that planet to make the weapons...but then why would you point humans in the direction of a planet with those specific resources?
Maybe they are similar to humans (we are a 100% DNA match) and have different classes of people, different governments, etc. That would lend itself to the idea that it was a secret, even among themselves, base of operations. A military outpost. It would also run parallel with another theory of mine that the Engineers on that moon were NOT Engineers but military personnel of the same race. Technically, the only engineer we got to see was the one at the very beginning of the film.
And, also, those maps may not have been pointing the humans to go there. But, then again, it very well could have and they changed from terraforming to military base in a few decades (like I mentioned, prior).
Originally posted by jaden101
These obviously use a whole load of speculation but if we use only what we see in the film then the star maps were drawn 30,000 years ago (and after) pointing humans to a planet where, when humans got there, seen that it was a place where the engineers who inspired the star maps had made loads of weapons and were about to wipe out human life on earth until they were stopped by something.
Well, we do know that those maps stopped showing up hundreds of years before relations soured. So it would seem that we have even more time to say that they changed the point of that moon than just a few decades. Since those maps stopped showing up hundreds of years before shit turned to "wipe them out" orders, they may have had hundreds of years to reconsider/repurpose the moon.
Originally posted by jaden101
I'll write more later...It's 4:25am here and I have to get up for work in a few hours.
lol
Sleep.
There are more plotholes in the film, other than the ones we have been discussing. There is a major plothole concerning David's head.
When the ship was falling out of the sky, rolling on the ground, and falling over.....how they **** did David's head remain on the platform BUT Weyland's body seemd to have slid around. Why do I mentioned Weyland's body? Because the only proper reply would be, "artificial gravity could be in place on that ship" so then my reply is, "then explain why Weyland's body, which was directly behind David, is no longer there, but David's head still is." Meaning, you cannot use the artificial gravity explanation to figure out that plothole.
Then there's this one: unless the Engineer's are using some sort of regenerative nanobots to keep their bodies alive, there's no way they could live in hypersleep for 2000 years. Here's why: listen to the breathing rate and heart rate of the dude in his hypersleep chamber: it is much too fast. They have the same DNA as humans so they would have roughly the same lifespan UNLESS they have far superior regenerative technologies that have overcome cancer and telomere degradation. On top of this, the hypersleep chambers for both the Engineers and humans have major flaws: muscle degradation. They are still "awake" instead of frozen so atrophy would be absurd. All of them would wake up with the inability to move, after 2 years...much less 2000.
AHA! Suck it 'science fiction science'!