if you turn off their powers and were strictly human, no.
you got telepaths,
enhanced humans/mutant/mystics and you are trying to equate them to Bronze tiger?
you dont see the massive difference?
maybe make a thread with each and we'll discuss it as it is i dont feel like running down the list and pointing out the fallacy in logic.
Originally posted by King Castle
if you turn off their powers and were strictly human, no.you got telepaths,
enhanced humans/mutant/mystics and you are trying to equate them to Bronze tiger?you dont see the massive difference?
maybe make a thread with each and we'll discuss it as it is i dont feel like running down the list and pointing out the fallacy in logic.
None of the characters on the list have to use their abilities just to fight Steve h2h. I can just say the same for Steve, and give every one on the list equal bodies as Steve (like in the Frank Castle vs Steve Rogers thread) and lets see would win then...
Originally posted by Marvelknight
And you don't see the flaw in your reasoning? No character is infallible.So
Elektra
Daredveil
Lady Shiva
Richard Drongon
Shang Chi
The Sensi
Iron Fist
Connor Hawke
Cassandra Cain
Batman
Bronze Tiger
Taskmaster
Deathstroke
Wildcat
Prometheus
Black Canary
Reene Montoya/Vic Sage
Pyslocke
Ogun (before his death)
Wolverine
None of these martial artist stand a chance h2h? Nobody can take Steve right? Nobody at all?
Well I rest my case. Because this is the most biased thing I ever heard. And if it were true, no moderator would let the thread be created since nobody has a chance h2h against Steve Rogers. 🙄
The only people on that list who could beat Cap all have powers, and very few of them (ie Wolverine / Ogun) could contend with Steve in a pure h2h melee throw down.
With all things equal (attributes, stamina, ect), in equal bodies and the fight decided solely on skill, Captain America would still take the slight majority against Ben, 5.5-6/10. But all things aren't equal. Steve is stronger. Steve is faster. Steve never tires. Steve heals faster. Steve is a better a fighter. He has every possible advantage. Bronze Tiger can't defeat Captain America in h2h without a plot device, to think otherwise is delusional.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only people on that list who could beat Cap all have powers, and very few of them (ie Wolverine / Ogun) could contend with Steve in a pure h2h melee throw down.With all things equal (attributes, stamina, ect), in equal bodies and the fight decided solely on skill, Captain America would still take the slight majority against Ben, 5.5-6/10. But all things aren't equal. Steve is stronger. Steve is faster. Steve never tires. Steve heals faster. Steve is a better a fighter. He has every possible advantage. Bronze Tiger can't defeat Captain America in h2h without a plot device, to think otherwise is delusional.
To think that Steve can't lose is delusional. You even say that "With all things equal (attributes, stamina, ect), in equal bodies and the fight decided solely on skill, Captain America would still take the slight majority against Ben, 5.5-6/10." You can't even give Ben the nod in martial arts skills and It's your opinion that Steve is the better fighter. It's not proven fact.
Slade the same advantages that Steve does over Bronze Tiger what's your point?
Originally posted by Marvelknight
To think that Steve can't lose is delusional. You even say that "With all things equal (attributes, stamina, ect), in equal bodies and the fight decided solely on skill, Captain America would still take the slight majority against Ben, 5.5-6/10." You can't even give Ben the nod in martial arts skills and It's your opinion that Steve is the better fighter. It's not proven fact.Slade the same advantages that Steve does over Bronze Tiger what's your point?
Giving Turner a skill advantage would be an arbitrary edge that I would be throwing to him on a whim without any evidence to support it. There is not a single shred of evidence to support the notion that BT is as or more skilled as Cap. Ben has less than 200 appearances, some of them are pre-crisis, some of them have been retcon'd out of existance. His history does not support the oppinion that he is more skilled than Cap. All there is, is the fact that BT is more skilled than Batman and the undiagnosed psychological disorder prevalent among fanboys that makes them believe that Batman = Cap.
In equal bodies without added abilities Captain America can go at least 50/50 with any human not named Karate Kid (or Old Masters and transcendents like Ogun or Stick)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Giving Turner a skill advantage would be an arbitrary edge that I would be throwing to him on a whim without any evidence to support it. There is not a single shred of evidence to support the notion that BT is as or more skilled as Cap. Ben has less than 200 appearances, some of them are pre-crisis, some of them have been retcon'd out of existance. His history does not support the oppinion that he is more skilled than Cap. All there is, is the fact that BT is more skilled than Batman and the undiagnosed psychological disorder prevalent among fanboys that makes them believe that Batman = Cap.In equal bodies without added abilities Captain America can go at least 50/50 with [b]any
human not named Karate Kid (or Old Masters and transcendents like Ogun or Stick) [/B]
Again, that is an opinion. Steve is not more skilled than Bruce, so how is he more skilled than Bronze Tiger? You speak your opinion like it's fact when it's not. If Steve didn't have the SSS he would certainly not hang with the likes of Bruce, Shiva, or Ben. That is a fact. It's a fact 'cause without the SSS Steve isn't even peak human.
Originally posted by King Castle
he doesnt give him the nod most likely due to lack of having a full history to showcase his MA skills when compared to the likes of Cap.
So you side with the more popular character?? DC has made it clear that Bronze Tiger is one of the premiere martial arts masters in DC. And having more feats does not give a character the win. Batman has far more feats than Bronze Tiger. So that's not a factor here for Steve.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Again, that is an opinion. Steve is not more skilled than Bruce, so how is he more than skilled than Bronze Tiger? You speak your opinion like it's fact when it's not. If Steve didn't have the SSS he would certainly not hang with the likes of Bruce, Shiva, or Ben. That is a fact. It's a fact 'cause without the SSS Steve isn't even peak human.
Steve is more skilled than Bruce. Captain America is considered to be the premier fighter on Marvel Earth. Batman doesn't even crack the top five in DC. I suppose you could pretend that means that everyone in DC most be more skilled... except several characters below Cap on the hierarchy of Marvel Martial Artists would be vying for the top spot of they were transposed into DC continuity. Batman is as skilled as Daredevil and Captain America is more skilled than either of them.
Back when Beast was on the Avengers, Steve had lost his SSS and even in his weakened state he was peak human. Of course on an other occasion he reverted into a 90lbs weakling... but even then he was kicking the collective asses of SSS super soldiers.
Originally posted by Marvelknightit doesnt but we also dont claim he can do the same skills set abilities as bat's, cass or shiva anymore then cap.
So you side with the more popular character?? DC has made it clear that clear that Bronze Tiger is one the premiere martial arts masters in DC. And having more feats does not give a character the win. Batman has far more feats than Bronze Tiger. So that's not a factor here with Steve.
we show what he has done on panel and not make assumptions.
we know Cap knows pressure points can land them on guys like spiderman.. we know Cap can hold his own for a short time with Wolverine without his shield, adamantly an exhausted Logan.
we know Cap can anticipate attacks from BP has faster reaction time enough for BP admit it that his SSS makes him superior even with his basic style used by cap.
also Ironfist has commented on it as has Wolverine and Cap has repeatedly showcased his skills and has gotten the respect by on panel feats.
you want to claim BT can win fine reference the feats that he will use to win against Cap.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Steve [b]is more skilled than Bruce. Captain America is considered to be the premier fighter on Marvel Earth. Batman doesn't even crack the top five in DC. I suppose you could pretend that means that everyone in DC most be more skilled... except several characters below Cap on the hierarchy of Marvel Martial Artists would be vying for the top spot of they were transposed into DC continuity. Batman is as skilled as Daredevil and Captain America is more skilled than either of them.Back when Beast was on the Avengers, Steve had lost his SSS and even in his weakened state he was peak human. Of course on an other occasion he reverted into a 90lbs weakling... but even then he was kicking the collective asses of SSS super soldiers. [/B]
Hell yeah Batman is in the top 5. And he is he more skilled. Are you $%*&ing crazy? 🤨
Originally posted by King Castle
it doesnt but we also dont claim he can do the same skills set abilities as bat's, cass or shiva anymore then cap.we show what he has done on panel and not make assumptions.
we know Cap knows pressure points can land them on guys like spiderman.. we know Cap can hold his own for a short time with Wolverine without his shield, adamantly an exhausted Logan.
we know Cap can anticipate attacks from BP has faster reaction time enough for BP admit it that his SSS makes him superior even with his basic style used by cap.
also Ironfist has commented on it as has Wolverine and Cap has repeatedly showcased his skills and has gotten the respect by on panel feats.
you want to claim BT can win fine reference the feats that he will use to win against Cap.
And what, Bronze Tiger has done nothing?!?! 😠
This is by far the biggest load of crap that I've ever had to deal with here. Neither of you have proved nothing. You can post feats all day and it wouldn't take nothing away from Bronze Tiger. Bronze Tiger is established as a premiere martial Artist.
srankmissingnin, you talk about Batman like he's not more skilled, How?!? Batman has been training since he was 8 years old. All of the premiere martial Artist in DC, Batman has stalemated or beat them. But he's not in the top 5. Get the #%^& out of here with that. Please do not proceed to tell me about Batman, who he is and what he can or DC for that matter.
Even without their exotic and quasi mystical abilities Shang-Chi, Iron Fist or Elektra would go at least 50 with any human MA in standard DC continuity not named Karate Kid or Kid Nemesis. For arguments sake lets be generous to DC and say that in terms of application of skill and technical ability that (more or less) Shang-Chi = BT, Iron Fist = Dragon, and Elektra = Shiva. Well, Captain America is established on panel as being more skilled than Shang-Chi or Iron Fist. Batman is established as being less skilled than Dragon, BT, Shiva.
Do the math. There isn't not a lot of opinion involved really. I know that Shang-Chi would at least stalemate Dragon. I know that Iron Fist would at least stalemate BT. I know that Captain America has been stated on panel to be more skilled than those two Marvel Characters, and that Batman has been established as being less skilled as the DC ones. It is called forming an educated opinion based on facts... which is different than saying "I think BT is better... because... well just because!"
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even without their exotic and quasi mystical abilities Shang-Chi, Iron Fist or Elektra would go [b]at least 50 with any human MA in standard DC continuity not named Karate Kid or Kid Nemesis. For arguments sake lets be generous to DC and say that in terms of application of skill and technical ability that (more or less) Shang-Chi = BT, Iron Fist = Dragon, and Elektra = Shiva. Well, Captain America is established on panel as being more skilled than Shang-Chi or Iron Fist. Batman is established as being less skilled than Dragon, BT, Shiva.Do the math. There isn't not a lot of opinion involved really. I know that Shang-Chi would at least stalemate Dragon. I know that Iron Fist would at least stalemate BT. I know that Captain America has been stated on panel to be more skilled than those two Marvel Characters, and that Batman has been established as being less skilled as the DC ones. It is called forming an educated opinion based on facts... which is different than saying "I think BT is better... because... well just because!" [/B]
Sorry it doesn't work that way. Flawed logic.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Hell yeah Batman is in the top 5. And he is he more skilled. Are you $%*&ing crazy? 🤨And what, Bronze Tiger has done nothing?!?! 😠
This is by far the biggest load of crap that I've ever had to deal with here. Neither of you have proved nothing. You can post feats all day and it wouldn't take nothing away from Bronze Tiger. Bronze Tiger is established as a premiere martial Artist.
srankmissingnin, you talk about Batman like he's not more skilled, How?!? Batman has been training since he was 8 years old. All of the premiere martial Artist in DC, Batman has stalemated. But he not in the top 5. Get the #%^& out of here with that. Please do not proceed to tell me about Batman, who is and what he can or DC for that matter.
Batman is not in the top 5 of DC Martial artists. Shiva, Dragon, BT, Cassandra and Connor are all more skilled then he is. According to Oracle, Black Canary is more skilled as well. Then there are characters Drakon and White Canary, or Alpha and Mad Dog.
Go read Year One. He started training when he was 13 (he returned to Gotham when he was 25 and was gone for 12 years) and not all of that was martial arts training, a good chuck was the criminal sciences and business.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Sorry it doesn't work that way. Flawed logic.
Yes it does. Shang-Chi would beat any human martial artist in DC not named Karate Kid. Captain America is established as being more skilled than Shang-Chi. Now jump into your Batman pjs, put on Mask of the Phantasm, climb into your cozy Batman bedsheets and cry yourself to sleep.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batman is not in the top 5 of DC Martial artists. Shiva, Dragon, BT, Cassandra and Connor are all more skilled then he is. According to Oracle, Black Canary is more skilled as well. Then there are characters Drakon and White Canary, or Alpha and Mad Dog.Go read Year One. He started training when he was 13 (he returned to Gotham when he was 25 and was gone for 12 years) and not all of that was martial arts training, a good chuck was the criminal sciences and business.
Who gives a damn what Oracle said. I know Cassandra and Connor couldn't hold a candle to Bruce or Black Canary. Batman has beaten Shiva, Bronze Tiger couldn't gain the advantage on Bruce the second time around and Richard couldn't beat Bruce neither. Even Slade said he wouldn't fight Batman without his enhancements and you're telling Steve would beat Batman without the SSS. WOW!!! This is gething way too far now.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Who gives a damn what Oracle said. I know Cassandra and Connor couldn't hold a candle to Bruce or Black Canary. Batman has beaten Shiva, Bronze Tiger couldn't gain the advantage on Bruce the second time around and Richard couldn't beat Bruce neither. Even Slade said he wouldn't fight Batman without his enhancements and you're telling Steve would beat Batman without the SSS. WOW!!! This is gething way too far now.
Who gives a damn what you say? You don't even know how long Batman trained for or when he started, meaning you likely haven't even read Year One. Both Cassandra and Connor have more to their names to support their skill than that Black Canary. Anyway all of those characters are considered more skilled than Bruce in DC continuity by Batman's peers.
Batman has beaten Shiva twice with the help of Robin and once while she was mind controlled. Dragon didn't want to or even try to fight Bruce with any effort and still stalemated him. Batman also has armored suit that gives him an advantage in melee against characters that don't (ie Dragon, Shiva, BT), and in the case of Shiva he is much stronger and has about a hundred pounds on her. Point being Bruce has other advantages that serve to close limited skill gabs.
Slade is a piss pour fighter. Both Winter Green and Addie were supposed to be more skilled than he was in their prime, and neither of them is Batman.
Captain America is more skilled than Bruce. Equal bodies, he takes him 6-6.5/10. In his weak pre SSS body he loses.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Who gives a damn what you say? You don't even know how long Batman trained for or when he started, meaning you likely haven't even read Year One. Both Cassandra and Connor have more to their names to support their skill than that Black Canary. Anyway all of those characters are considered more skilled than Bruce in DC continuity by Batman's peers.Batman has beaten Shiva twice with the help of Robin and once while she was mind controlled. Dragon didn't want to or even try to fight Bruce with any effort and still stalemated him. Batman also has armored suit that gives him an advantage in melee against characters that don't (ie Dragon, Shiva, BT), and in the case of Shiva he is much stronger and has about a hundred pounds on her. Point being Bruce has other advantages that serve to close limited skill gabs.
Slade is a piss pour fighter. Both Winter Green and Addie were supposed to be more skilled than he was in their prime, and neither of them is Batman.
Captain America is more skilled than Bruce. Equal bodies, he takes him 6-6.5/10. In his weak pre SSS body he loses.
Please I have over 280 Batman comics. Year one as well. I'm wiling to bet money I know far more about Bruce than you ever could. DO NOT TELL ME ABOUT BATMAN!!! It's doesn't matter what Oracle said. Superman also thinks that Karate Kid is better. But Batman stalemated him too. Robin came towards the end sucker punched Shiva. But until then it was a stalemate. And what prof do you have that Shiva was mind controlled? None. 😠
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Please I have over 280 Batman comics. Year one as well. I'm wiling to bet money I know far more about Bruce than you ever could. DO NOT TELL ME ABOUT BATMAN!!! It's doesn't matter what Oracle said. Superman also thinks that Karate Kid is better. But Batman stalemated him too. Robin came towards the end sucker punched Shiva. But until then it was a stalemate. And what prof do you have that Shiva was mind controlled? None. 😠
280 Batman comics! Oh boy!!!!!!! Congratulations you've read less than 1/20th of Batman's appearances. Surely you are the foremost authority of Batman! When are you getting tenure? Seasriously, go download some turrents or buy an asston of back issues because you are out of you're league here champ.
Karate Kid was weakened. Karate Kid is more skilled than Bruce. All three version are, except maybe 3-boot.
What prove do I have that Shiva was mind controlled? Deductive reasoning? The fact that every other villain in the issue was mind controlled? That no one would pay to hire Shiva when they were mind controlling every other villain in the DC U...