it's not a matter of stealing throguh force-fields, rather of the momentum being infinite. flash would likely slow him down, much like dropping a mountain juggernaut does, but wouldnt stop him. so the end resutl fo lekaving him as a statue that cant react wouldnt be achieved as cytorrak woukld just continue to supply him with energy. even assuming flash eventually bring him to a halt, it should take longer than he'd have as the SS could counterstrike with invisible force-fields and fire .
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Seeing as this is a cross-comic universe battle and force fields are more common in both universes than speed steal powers, one would think the burden of proving whether or not it would work would fall on then side where BOTH force fields and speed steal powers exist, don't you think?So, basically, he's never speed stolen thru a force field before? Well, that makes the whole attack questionable in viability, doesn't it?
Sure. Which is why I answered that he has stolen speed from beings similar to himself, as well as beings that have had nothing to do with him. I don't see why ss or juggernaut would be any different. He's stolen speed from, again, sf users, an entire planet, and Amazo with the powers of the entire Justice league, including ww, superman, gl and their weapons.
So if you're really stuck on the shield issue, then he's stolen through superman's natural "shield" as well as a gl's apparently. I'm uncertain as to whether or not Amazo had ww's mystical weapons or not, but seeing as he has copied them before and he had gl's weapon, I don't see why he wouldn't but I didn't see them in the art, so I will assume they weren't there.
As far as infinite momentum goes, I'm no physicist, but Inertia, as well as the other speed force users were probably moving at lightspeed or close to it when Wally stole their speed. So as far as "infinite" momentum, I think that lightspeed would probably replicate that. Also, I think that juggernaut's infinite momentum claim is hyperbole, as is just about everything that claims to not have a limit in comics.
Also, if juggernaut's momentum is infinite, then how did war hulk stop him? See what I'm saying? So I don't even see why this would even be an issue for Wally.
EDIT: Sorry for the late reply btw.
Originally posted by Sirius77
Sure. Which is why I answered that he has stolen speed from beings similar to himself, as well as beings that have had nothing to do with him. I don't see why ss or juggernaut would be any different. He's stolen speed from, again, sf users, an entire planet, and Amazo with the powers of the entire Justice league, including ww, superman, gl and their weapons.So if you're really stuck on the shield issue, then he's stolen through superman's natural "shield" as well as a gl's apparently. I'm uncertain as to whether or not Amazo had ww's mystical weapons or not, but seeing as he has copied them before and he had gl's weapon, I don't see why he wouldn't but I didn't see them in the art, so I will assume they weren't there.
As far as infinite momentum goes, I'm no physicist, but Inertia, as well as the other speed force users were probably moving at lightspeed or close to it when Wally stole their speed. So as far as "infinite" momentum, I think that lightspeed would probably replicate that. Also, I think that juggernaut's infinite momentum claim is hyperbole, as is just about everything that claims to not have a limit in comics.
Also, if juggernaut's momentum is infinite, then how did war hulk stop him? See what I'm saying? So I don't even see why this would even be an issue for Wally.
EDIT: Sorry for the late reply btw.
This sure is a LATE reply. 😛
Anyway, Superman "bio aura" has always been an iffy ability as it has been portrayed in many instances and downright ignored in others and the Speedster shields tend to be vulnerable to speed steal because the speedforce is where they get their force fields in the first place. Now if you can supply scans of Flash stealing from Amazo when he had a GL aura/force field around him, however, that would be good, acceptable proof of this.
Yeah, I understand that, in physics, "lightspeed = infinite mass/inertia" when applied to objects with mass. But this is comics, Surfer hits lightspeed x millions but doesn't gain infinite mass. Even Flash's "Infinite Mass Punch" isn't really infinite because that would mean he would literally collapse the planet under his weight w/in the Earth's gravity or at the very least punch a black hole into someone he punches.
I guess the "no-limits" argument here isn't really no-limits as there is a hard cap on the extent of power that Jugs can draw from. Jugs draws his enchantment's abilities from an elder-god level being. Anything beyond that would overrule the enchantment (Celestials). If Flash has been able to stop beings of this magnitude via speed steal, you can actually have an argument about this being the case here.
The same way WWH was stomping everyone in the arc. Massive PIS. Also, he didn't "stop" Cain, simply slowed him down and BFRd him by using his momentum against him.
Edit. Whenever I say "Jugs" I meant Super Juggerskrull. 😛
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This sure is a LATE reply. 😛Anyway, Superman "bio aura" has always been an iffy ability as it has been portrayed in many instances and downright ignored in others and the Speedster shields tend to be vulnerable to speed steal because the speedforce is where they get their force fields in the first place. Now if you can supply scans of Flash stealing from Amazo when he had a GL aura/force field around him, however, that would be good, acceptable proof of this.
Yeah, I understand that, in physics, "lightspeed = infinite mass/inertia" when applied to objects with mass. But this is comics, Surfer hits lightspeed x millions but doesn't gain infinite mass. Even Flash's "Infinite Mass Punch" isn't really infinite because that would mean he would literally collapse the planet under his weight w/in the Earth's gravity or at the very least punch a black hole into someone he punches.
I guess the "no-limits" argument here isn't really no-limits as there is a hard cap on the extent of power that Jugs can draw from. Jugs draws his enchantment's abilities from an elder-god level being. Anything beyond that would overrule the enchantment (Celestials). If Flash has been able to stop beings of this magnitude via speed steal, you can actually have an argument about this being the case here.
The same way WWH was stomping everyone in the arc. Massive PIS. Also, he didn't "stop" Cain, simply slowed him down and BFRd him by using his momentum against him.
Edit. Whenever I say "Jugs" I meant Super Juggerskrull. 😛
Yeah I can agree with the bio-aura thing. It has been quite inconsistent over the years, but during the multiple times that a flash has stolen speed from superman, he has been under the bio-aura explanation to my knowledge. Also, as far as the gl shield argument , it is assumed that gls have auto shields on at all times whenever the uniform is manifested in almost every appearance that I've seen. Essentially, the ring provides shielding that protects against un-precedented attacks, so I don't see why amazo wouldn't use that power when he was using all of the others almost simultaneously. It doesn't make sense to me.
So essentially, as far as the physics of juggernaut's abilities and the no limits fallacy, I assume we agree then?😄 As far as Flash being able to steal that level of speed... well, again, he stole the the kinetic energy of a planet ... so unless juggernauts kinetic energy output/ momentum is greater than that of a planet's, then Flash could steal it if it comes to that.
I forgot about the wwh instance. I was referring to war hulk, the apoc version stopping juggernaut.
Lol I know haha. 😛
Originally posted by Sirius77
Yeah I can agree with the bio-aura thing. It has been quite inconsistent over the years, but during the multiple times that a flash has stolen speed from superman, he has been under the bio-aura explanation to my knowledge. Also, as far as the gl shield argument , it is assumed that gls have auto shields on at all times whenever the uniform is manifested in almost every appearance that I've seen. Essentially, the ring provides shielding that protects against un-precedented attacks, so I don't see why amazo wouldn't use that power when he was using all of the others almost simultaneously. It doesn't make sense to me.So essentially, as far as the physics of juggernaut's abilities and the no limits fallacy, I assume we agree then?😄 As far as Flash being able to steal that level of speed... well, again, he stole the the kinetic energy of a planet ... so unless juggernauts kinetic energy output/ momentum is greater than that of a planet's, then Flash could steal it if it comes to that.
I forgot about the wwh instance. I was referring to war hulk, the apoc version stopping juggernaut.
Lol I know haha. 😛
I dunno, like I said, due to the inconsistent portrayal of bio aura ability, I think you'll have to prove that the speed steal happened during the same instance where the bio arua was portrayed. ^_^ I dunno, how else to prove it really... 🙁
Well, Amazo has been shown NOT to use certain powers in his repertoire all the time, so we can't naturally assume that they're all on by default in all showings simply to make an argument. 😉
I agree that there IS a hard-cap limit to Jug's momentum. Strangely, it being magic might mean it falls under some exceptions. The basic rule is that the momentum cannot be stopped once the movement begins. Speed steal is a VERY questionable tactic as, especially in DC, magic tends to easily overrule science.
The planet speed-"steal" had special conditions attached to it as he didn't really "steal" the speed but it was given to him willingly (thus any kind of defenses to protect against speed steal would naturally be down). Also, even planetary-level kinetic energy shouldn't be much of a comparison to the an Elder God's full powers (who are one step higher than skyfather).
Also, War Hulk was PIS-y Celestial tech (w/c overrules Elder God level powers it seems). 😛
Edit. Another thing, from my memory (other than the special instance of the planet-wide speed steal) I don't recall Wally every stealing someone's speed at a distance. How's he stealing Super Juggerskrull's speed as he'd be invisible AND flying?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Well, Amazo has been shown NOT to use certain powers in his repertoire all the time, so we can't naturally assume that they're all on by default in all showings simply to make an argument. 😉I agree that there IS a hard-cap limit to Jug's momentum. Strangely, it being magic might mean it falls under some exceptions. The basic rule is that the momentum cannot be stopped once the movement begins. Speed steal is a VERY questionable tactic as, especially in DC, magic tends to easily overrule science.
The planet speed-"steal" had special conditions attached to it as he didn't really "steal" the speed but it was given to him willingly (thus any kind of defenses to protect against speed steal would naturally be down). Also, even planetary-level kinetic energy shouldn't be much of a comparison to the an Elder God's full powers (who are one step higher than skyfather).
Also, War Hulk was PIS-y Celestial tech (w/c overrules Elder God level powers it seems). 😛
I didn't say that they're all on, simply that there would be no logical reason as to why his gl abilities would not be on if he copied the weapon, due to it's nature. Imo, it's the same concept as superman's durability or the flash's speed, or any other passive ability copied by the android. Otherwise, he'd be like ultra-boy lol.
Well generally that is true concerning DC magic, but not to nit-pick, but Juggernaut is Marvel and it would be conjecture to say that just because the flash is a dc character and the magic difference remains true some of the time, that he would instantly react in that way just because juggernaut's abilities are mystical in nature.
Yeah, I'm aware that Petrus essentially gave wally the energy, but the fact still stands that he can do it. If Juggernaut was an energy manipulator capable of actually resisting such a thing, then there would be an argument. Also the fact still stands that the flash (or at least wally individually to my knowledge) can hold that much kinetic energy. I cannot recall an instance in which someone has attempted such a thing on the juggernaut, much less where he has resisted. All the instances that I have seen are bfr or all brute force and brick a pounding and pushing on brick b. Never really a method
of energy manipulation or versatility that Wally has been known to use.
I also agree that a planet is essentially nothing in the face of a being that is above galaxy busters, however, has classic juggernaut actually ever shown the power of an elder god without amps?
There's a lot of PIS involving hulk lol, but in all fairness, I do think that a lot of the narration concerning Juggernaut amounts to hyperbole. You seem like a rational and logical poster, so don't get me wrong, he is one of the most durable characters in his tier, and I would argue, quite far above as well, but I don't think that it is ridiculous to say that he is truly infinitely resistant and unstoppable to any strategy.
Originally posted by Hitman911
JuggerSkrull could also make his Team invisible as well..... Hmmmmm........
wouldn't really make a difference, as several of the JLA would be able to perceive them, and with a psychic link would enable all the team to see them.
Originally posted by The Nuul
He does, Carv sucks his dick. He love him long time!
Warned.
-------------------------------
also, J'onn does still have his fire weakness, it's just different nowadays.
Originally posted by Hitman911
JuggerSkrull could also make his Team invisible as well..... Hmmmmm........
In which case J'onn would use one of his ten senses to find them and broadcasts to the rest of the team what he sees via tp, Superman would switch to infra red and nothing would change, Wonder woman would track them by feeling the change in air pressure like she did when she blinded herself and fought the flash, but she won't really need to because of the abilities.
Originally posted by Sirius77
I didn't say that they're all on, simply that there would be no logical reason as to why his gl abilities would not be on if he copied the weapon, due to it's nature. Imo, it's the same concept as superman's durability or the flash's speed, or any other passive ability copied by the android. Otherwise, he'd be like ultra-boy lol.Well generally that is true concerning DC magic, but not to nit-pick, but Juggernaut is Marvel and it would be conjecture to say that just because the flash is a dc character and the magic difference remains true some of the time, that he would instantly react in that way just because juggernaut's abilities are mystical in nature.
Yeah, I'm aware that Petrus essentially gave wally the energy, but the fact still stands that he can do it. If Juggernaut was an energy manipulator capable of actually resisting such a thing, then there would be an argument. Also the fact still stands that the flash (or at least wally individually to my knowledge) can hold that much kinetic energy. I cannot recall an instance in which someone has attempted such a thing on the juggernaut, much less where he has resisted. All the instances that I have seen are bfr or all brute force and brick a pounding and pushing on brick b. Never really a method
of energy manipulation or versatility that Wally has been known to use.I also agree that a planet is essentially nothing in the face of a being that is above galaxy busters, however, has classic juggernaut actually ever shown the power of an elder god without amps?
There's a lot of PIS involving hulk lol, but in all fairness, I do think that a lot of the narration concerning Juggernaut amounts to hyperbole. You seem like a rational and logical poster, so don't get me wrong, he is one of the most durable characters in his tier, and I would argue, quite far above as well, but I don't think that it is ridiculous to say that he is truly infinitely resistant and unstoppable to any strategy.
I like debating with you, unlike some OTHER DC posters, you actually believe in posting concise and reasonable arguments to prove your point (instead of acting like a tool in a comic discussion forum like SOME posters do...). 🙂
Respect! Keep it up!
Sorry for the late reply (and if this post isn't up to the standards of my other replies, lol) been an insanely busy busy week at work and my brain is fried.
Anyway, I do agree that logically (and in a forum battle environment you'd be right) that the powers SHOULDN'T be of at all. But the same argument could be made for the Surfer as he has a myriad of abilities he SHOULD keep on (intangibility when fighting bricks for example) but doesn't due to story reasons. Same goes for Flash. Not really PIS, more like CIS here. IMO, SOME indication should exist such as artwork or narratives to least show it before it can become proof.
I also agree that DC Magic =/= Marvel Magic, I'm just stating it as a means of showing how DC Science behaves when faced with Magic. In the DC universe, science tends to be overridden by magic (same normally goes for Marvel if you ignore the silly things Pym did) and I'm just saying that might be the case here as well. Of course, saying this from my side is simply conjecture, but things being as they are, it can only really be conjecture as this IS a cross-comic universe scenario.
Jugs is NOT a (conscious) energy manipulator, of course. But the nature on HOW he'll resist will be different. The gem creates a set of magical guidelines to be followed (he cannot be stopped once he starts moving) and it will compensate for any kind of manipulation by funneling in more energy.
I'm not the authority on Juggernaut as some ppl are here, tbh. 🙂 just that I'm familiar with the nature of his powers from his showings vs Thor, Hulk, X-Men, etc (the comics I DO read). Never read his series, tho.
Thing is, I do agree to a lot of your points. And I'm also inclined to agree that a speed steal MIGHT work. I'm not 100% convinced, tho.
IMO, at the end, it will come down to
1) Whether or not speed steal WILL work vs the force field. 2) Whether or not Wally can take in this much energy before overloading or exhausting himself.
3) IF Wally survives the initial barrage. With CIS on, he might get taken out by either Glads or the Surfer early on the fight. IF the planet get blown up (EVERY person in Team 1 is a planet buster), what's he gonna do? Super Skrull has been know to leave traps for ppl to run into and get sliced up on. Once he sees Wally zipping around, what's to stop him from leaving razor sharp invisible force fields in the battlefield?
4) IF he'll even attempt the speed steal early on before the JLA team gets taken down by Super JuggerSkrull.
Also, if the Speed Steal works, won't it be a stalemate? Can he sustain the Speed steal forever? Won't he tire out? He still can't hurt/KO Super JuggerSkrull, possibly keep him frozen for a bit, but can he do it indefinitely?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I like debating with you, unlike some OTHER DC posters, you actually believe in posting concise and reasonable arguments to prove your point (instead of acting like a tool in a comic discussion forum like SOME posters do...). 🙂Respect! Keep it up!
Sorry for the late reply (and if this post isn't up to the standards of my other replies, lol) been an insanely busy busy week at work and my brain is fried.
Anyway, I do agree that logically (and in a forum battle environment you'd be right) that the powers SHOULDN'T be of at all. But the same argument could be made for the Surfer as he has a myriad of abilities he SHOULD keep on (intangibility when fighting bricks for example) but doesn't due to story reasons. Same goes for Flash. Not really PIS, more like CIS here. IMO, SOME indication should exist such as artwork or narratives to least show it before it can become proof.
I also agree that DC Magic =/= Marvel Magic, I'm just stating it as a means of showing how DC Science behaves when faced with Magic. In the DC universe, science tends to be overridden by magic (same normally goes for Marvel if you ignore the silly things Pym did) and I'm just saying that might be the case here as well. Of course, saying this from my side is simply conjecture, but things being as they are, it can only really be conjecture as this IS a cross-comic universe scenario.
Jugs is NOT a (conscious) energy manipulator, of course. But the nature on HOW he'll resist will be different. The gem creates a set of magical guidelines to be followed (he cannot be stopped once he starts moving) and it will compensate for any kind of manipulation by funneling in more energy.
I'm not the authority on Juggernaut as some ppl are here, tbh. 🙂 just that I'm familiar with the nature of his powers from his showings vs Thor, Hulk, X-Men, etc (the comics I DO read). Never read his series, tho.
Thing is, I do agree to a lot of your points. And I'm also inclined to agree that a speed steal MIGHT work. I'm not 100% convinced, tho.
IMO, at the end, it will come down to
1) Whether or not speed steal WILL work vs the force field. 2) Whether or not Wally can take in this much energy before overloading or exhausting himself.
3) IF Wally survives the initial barrage. With CIS on, he might get taken out by either Glads or the Surfer early on the fight. IF the planet get blown up (EVERY person in Team 1 is a planet buster), what's he gonna do? Super Skrull has been know to leave traps for ppl to run into and get sliced up on. Once he sees Wally zipping around, what's to stop him from leaving razor sharp invisible force fields in the battlefield?
4) IF he'll even attempt the speed steal early on before the JLA team gets taken down by Super JuggerSkrull.Also, if the Speed Steal works, won't it be a stalemate? Can he sustain the Speed steal forever? Won't he tire out? He still can't hurt/KO Super JuggerSkrull, possibly keep him frozen for a bit, but can he do it indefinitely?
Thanks man, I enjoy debating with you as well 😄
I think that we agree on a lot of things and I'm not exactly a juggernaut authority either lol. I also apologize for the late reply as well haha. I've had a lot of school related stuff to deal with lol.
Number one is still in question, but based off of previous showings, I do believe that he is indeed capable of such a feat. I also believe that Wally can definitely hold the energy, it will more than likely amp him and give him the boost he needs to give the JLA an edge. The planet may very well be destroyed, but the people that matter, including Wally will survive. With the level of team work that this incarnation of the JLA has shown, I'm inclined to believe that Wally may not even have to use his more exotic powers to survive, perhaps his teammates may even aid him even despite their own individual battles.
I do agree with the invisible traps, and in some scenarios this may get them wins, but in the same scenario, MM, Superman, WW, and even Gl have the ability to sense an invisible enemy, and MM has the ability to broadcast his whereabouts, and superman, the ability to see his constructs. Put all of this together and you have SS' moves being broadcasted to the entire team. If this were another incarnation, I more than likely wouldn't have used this argument, but their team work in so exemplary that it's worth mention. Also, Wally instantly vibrates when he feels something about to pierce him, like he did in the Tower of Babel arc with the vibrating sniper bullet (which didn't work in that scenario because the bullet itself was vibrating at his frequency lol).
Four is a good point as well. I'm thinking that as soon as they realize what Juggerskrull can do, they'll probably sic wally on him 😛 .
In all honesty though, I don't see wally draining juggy forever, just long enough to amp himself. Then I see a strong possibility of a speed force dump, or a general bfr.
Originally posted by Sirius77"So we're pulling out "exotic" powers????" Silver Surfer cracks his knuckles.....
Thanks man, I enjoy debating with you as well 😄I think that we agree on a lot of things and I'm not exactly a juggernaut authority either lol. I also apologize for the late reply as well haha. I've had a lot of school related stuff to deal with lol.
Number one is still in question, but based off of previous showings, I do believe that he is indeed capable of such a feat. I also believe that Wally can definitely hold the energy, it will more than likely amp him and give him the boost he needs to give the JLA an edge. The planet may very well be destroyed, but the people that matter, including Wally will survive. With the level of team work that this incarnation of the JLA has shown, I'm inclined to believe that Wally may not even have to use his more exotic powers to survive, perhaps his teammates may even aid him even despite their own individual battles.
I do agree with the invisible traps, and in some scenarios this may get them wins, but in the same scenario, MM, Superman, WW, and even Gl have the ability to sense an invisible enemy, and MM has the ability to broadcast his whereabouts, and superman, the ability to see his constructs. Put all of this together and you have SS' moves being broadcasted to the entire team. If this were another incarnation, I more than likely wouldn't have used this argument, but their team work in so exemplary that it's worth mention. Also, Wally instantly vibrates when he feels something about to pierce him, like he did in the Tower of Babel arc with the vibrating sniper bullet (which didn't work in that scenario because the bullet itself was vibrating at his frequency lol).
Four is a good point as well. I'm thinking that as soon as they realize what Juggerskrull can do, they'll probably sic wally on him 😛 .
In all honesty though, I don't see wally draining juggy forever, just long enough to amp himself. Then I see a strong possibility of a speed force dump, or a general bfr.
Originally posted by Sirius77
Thanks man, I enjoy debating with you as well 😄I think that we agree on a lot of things and I'm not exactly a juggernaut authority either lol. I also apologize for the late reply as well haha. I've had a lot of school related stuff to deal with lol.
Number one is still in question, but based off of previous showings, I do believe that he is indeed capable of such a feat. I also believe that Wally can definitely hold the energy, it will more than likely amp him and give him the boost he needs to give the JLA an edge. The planet may very well be destroyed, but the people that matter, including Wally will survive. With the level of team work that this incarnation of the JLA has shown, I'm inclined to believe that Wally may not even have to use his more exotic powers to survive, perhaps his teammates may even aid him even despite their own individual battles.
I do agree with the invisible traps, and in some scenarios this may get them wins, but in the same scenario, MM, Superman, WW, and even Gl have the ability to sense an invisible enemy, and MM has the ability to broadcast his whereabouts, and superman, the ability to see his constructs. Put all of this together and you have SS' moves being broadcasted to the entire team. If this were another incarnation, I more than likely wouldn't have used this argument, but their team work in so exemplary that it's worth mention. Also, Wally instantly vibrates when he feels something about to pierce him, like he did in the Tower of Babel arc with the vibrating sniper bullet (which didn't work in that scenario because the bullet itself was vibrating at his frequency lol).
Four is a good point as well. I'm thinking that as soon as they realize what Juggerskrull can do, they'll probably sic wally on him 😛 .
In all honesty though, I don't see wally draining juggy forever, just long enough to amp himself. Then I see a strong possibility of a speed force dump, or a general bfr.
Well, I just don't agree that he would overrule Cyttorak's enchantment. But I guess we can agree to disagree there. My primary concern is that he won't really even try to the point of causing the planet to blow up. With CIS on, Wally is not gonna endanger the heroes present who would prolly die in case he releases too much kinetic energy (Batman for one).
I'm sure Supes, MM and the GL can easily spot invisible opponents. But the force traps aren't opponents. They're force constructs that are invisible. I don't doubt that Supes or GL can eventually find the constructs if they decide to ACTIVELY scan the battlefield with some exotic sensory power, but would they be able to figure out to do so before Flash gets tagged by one of them? And it's also questionable if he can vibrate thru the force fields the second he runs into it as he prolly won't even know what hit him when he does. I know Flash has been able to vibrate thru force fields before, but that looks like it took time and if Flash runs into the force fields at his speeds, he might not even know what to vibrate for.
I DO see Wally getting sicced on Super Skrull eventually, just dunno when this will be. With CIS on, they might end up going on solo combat first and it might be a while before they realize that the only real option they have would be speed steal, with CIS on, I can see them beating on SJS first. 😛 They'll end up losing a few of their members this way. Also, bear in mind that Batman and Steele are REALLY out of their league here and would most prolly be taken down early. The REAL fight is between: Surfer, SJS, FC Glads vs MM, Supes, Flash, WW and GL. If you look at the odds, 3v5 isn't really that big a favor for the JLA given their limitations (Flash can't fly and Supes and MM have exploitable weaknesses). I can actually see the Surfer and SJS taking down Supes/MM via their weaknesses early on (as SJS NATURALLY attacks by fire a lot).
I do agree that if he manages to get the change to pull off a speed steal and that it DOES work, then BFR becomes a viable win option for Wally.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210It's not a viable tactic, logical arguments are. You should try them from time to time. The fact that you're feeling backed into a corner is not me being condescending, it's you being wrong.
Sigh. Yet another poster that believes that being a condescending ass is a viable debating technique.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Oh, how you've hurt the "Superman fanboy" community.
I swear, the majority of Superman fanbois seem to have this in common.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Aw, the "I thought so much more of you before this!" card. Well, I'm sorry to say I don't share this opinion, I knew how bright you were going into this discussion. But I was bored, so I decided to have some fun.
It's sad, I HAD a lot of respect for you as a debater prior to this, but if you're not gonna conduct yourself respectfully to your fellow posters, then neither am I.
Now, to the actual discussion and getting over the drama queening.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210"Hulk had him on his knees after the attack, eventough as he delivered the attack he had to break free of Silver Surfer’s attack trying to stop him. " Which of this part is me interpreting that scene, and which is actually directly presenting what was shown in the issue?
Wow. Is THAT how you interpret that instance? The fact that the writer seems to strongly point out that the Hulk's attack had no effect at all on the Surfer thru that instance escapes you??
Originally posted by D_Dude1210ermmnone
Your argument is only viable as a "common occurrence" if you ignore the fact that in those 2 instances:1) Surfer was (other than being tossed around) COMPLETELY unaffected by BRB's strongest blows. This is the same BRB that was busting planets during that arc. You trying to downplay the feat, notwithstanding.
Other than getting knocked the **** off of his board, and resorting to using it to knock Bill in the back of the head instead of continuing the frontal assault - that ended in him being on his ass, he was COMPLETLY FINE! You're right, Surfer should have bled or been knocked out. That's a true sign of him being affected.
He got knocked on his ass by two attacks from a second-rate Thor, and resorted to *****-tactics in order to gain the advantage. You going "but there were no .. umm... bruises and stuff" is the typical bullshittery that I don't have time for.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210I love how you fell right into that one.
2) You can argue the Herc (see Chaos War) incident, but it happened on-panel and trying to discredit it by using a condescending posting tone really doesn't prove your point.[...]
2) This was Odin, the highest skyfather out there who would KTFO Superman easily with one hit as well (you wanna debate that fact?).
You use skyfather+ Herc as viable durability feat for Surfer and at the same time don't dispute Odin KTFO him easily as PIS (at least you chose the best of the two wrongs, am I right? 😂). Which one is it an accurate representation of Surfer, Chaos War Hercules not being able to knock him out or Odin being able to? Let's take this analysis a step further. Was Hercules using the full extent of his powers? Was Hercules even aware of the full extent of his powers? What are the chances that Hercules risked killing Surfer and used one of the skyfather+ attacks?
I want the scans btw. Now.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Beta Ray Bill was going toe to toe with the same Thor and got the better of him. There have been numerous debates and the amp is questionable to say the least.
1) Thor here was arguably amped by his rage.3) BOTH of the instances where you presented scans were pre-Annihilation Surfer.
Surfer never got any upgrade. He was just restored.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210haermm
Yeah, the same Doomsday who took how long to get out of an alien coffin and bust out of the ground? :-/All the combined force of DDs and Superman's punches did in that arc was shatter nearby glass...
Yeah, he SURE is impressive. Geez, how did I fail to see that?? 😮 You, sir, have shown me the light.FYi, common consensus in the forum is that BRB would decisively beat DOS Doomsday.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=406569&pagenumber=3
But I'm sure you believe differently.
I was expecting it, but I still laughed. I love you how get into stuff you either have absolutly no clue on.
Doomsday was weakened after hundreds of thousand of years of imprisonment - he is powered by solar energy, the same as Superman. He was getting getting more powerful as the fight progressed. But even Doomsday at his lowest powerlevel not only in that arc but in history was capable of punching so hard that he was registering seismic activities all over the country.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/WeakenedDoomsdayGettingFree.jpg
I also love how you're using collateral damage as somehow proof of how impressive the fight is.
Ignoring the fact that it's an asinine standpoint, they didn't just "break some nearby glass".
The force of their blows shattered windows from Metropolis to Gotham. Buildings and homes shifted on their foundations.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/FightBlowsDestruction.jpg
Their final blows shook the planet to its core.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/ShakingPlanetCore.jpg
Forum consesus? Wow, you sure brought down a whole world of arguments down on me.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Tell that to Batman.
😂
Amazing, again.
What does he have to do with, like I said, "The fact that top Green Lanterns are capable of amping to high-end levels that allow them to go up against the likes of Mongul and Cyborg Superman is. "?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210The blackhole was not released because Superman caught it in his hand, the containment field was destroyed and no longer contained it. Thus why he was specifically mentioning the incredible pressure he's feeling, and why he and John made a magnetic field to contain it.
The fact that the Singularity wasn't completely formed and that the feat itself is more an indication of durability/strength rather than any form of being powerful that he had?
Strength and durability have nothing to do with how powerful a character is? Holding a black hole in your hand is not an impressive raw power feat? Thank you for sharing that.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210He tanks it with his own durability, unlike Surfer, who has been shown to protect himself and be powered by blackholes. He was also taken by surprise, unlike Surfer who was aware what he was heading for. And speaking of which, Superman has also done better than Thanos against blackholes. Surfer more durable than Thanos? Superman more durable than Thanos? Random Green Lantern rookies more durable than Thanos?
And had a hard time doing it and was obviously affected by it (via the scans). The Surfer did a whole lot better than he did.
I guess that makes a lot of sense in the no-penis-allowed silver world, right?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Surfer taking a beating from Tenebrous and Aegis is valid, thus why I specifically countered it with better feats, both from Superman, aswell as various other characters like Thor and Surfer, who have gone up against beings that have Eternity analogues on the run, celestials and the likes of Spectre, stood up and kept fighting, unlike Surfer who was left for dead in a few blows.
The fact that you present context-laden Deus Ex Machina "feats" as proof of Superman being more powerful and yet "laugh" when I mention the Crunch feat? :-/
What I specifically laughed at was you saying Surfer "survived something that killed abstracts", which reffers to the latter part of the crunch feat, where he redirected it twoards Tenebrous and Aegis.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Captain Marvel wasn't amped when he took on Spectre, but I'm not surprised that you have no ideea what you're talking about, again. Superman was not amped against Dominus, Quantum Mechanic or if we're going to go a step further, when he withstood energy attacks from Soulfire amped Darkseid and the Source, when he plowed through the weakness-based magical assault of Mordru and punched his teeth out, tanked attacks from the Entropy-Aegis armor (which is exactly what it sounds), tanked attacks from the Wizard Shazam in quick succesion and just waded through them, took multiple attacks from Kingdom Gog's staff trying to kill him (you know, the one that blows holes through 5th dimensional beings like Mxy) etc. Superman actually beats the characters who are at least skyfather in his universe (Darkseid for example - contrary to popular belief has feats to match any skyfather). He regulary takes on abstracts and wins.
Notice that the MARVEL character here actually had viable durability feat while the DC ones had one w/c was amped and the other that was completely based on an assumption? And yet, somehow you correlate them as identical feats in terms of viability?Funny how a DC fanboy's mind works.
Anyway, I'm bored. Spire has adressed some of your other idiocies, I've facepalmed at others, so it's my last words on this topic, as playing tennis with brick walls gets boring after a while.
