Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yea, I find it hard to believe that the Tiamut scene was similar to how people view insects.From what I recall of the Imperative, I would hardly use it as proof that Galactus > other abstracts and Celestials. IIRC, they disappeared off panel. You can argue that they sacrificed themselves and weakened it. No evidence one way or the other. Way too ambiguous it to be sufficient evidence.
I think its quite clear Galactus was depicted as the most powerful abstract present in TI.
You had several abstracts fighting the Galactus Engine, including a handful of Celestials and Galactus himself. We know they were losing because Aegis died fighting it, and narration repeatedly said the Abstracts were struggling to defend against the Engine. By the end, it was Galactus fighting the Engine himself. Surfer reinforces this by saying if Galactus can't stop it, then they'll lose the battle.
It's clear the other abstracts (including the Celestials) either died like Aegis or fled at the end, leaving Galactus to be the last one standing. Galactus was the last one standing and the last obstacle against the engine, which clearly shows he's the most powerful among the abstracts at the fault.
Originally posted by vince_slice
We know they were losing because Aegis died fighting it, and narration repeatedly said the Abstracts were struggling to defend against the Engine.
Yeah Aegis "died" before in Annihilation and she got better. I think it was just her M-body that was destroyed. But still, one decent showing by Galactus and now all of the sudden he's > then the Celestials? Still not convinced.
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah Aegis "died" before in Annihilation and she got better. I think it was just her M-body that was destroyed. But still, one decent showing by Galactus and now all of the sudden he's > then the Celestials? Still not convinced.
It was more than a "decent" showing, Galactus was single handedly defending against and holding his own against an Entity powerful enough to take on several abstracts at once (among them included a handful of Celestials).
Originally posted by vince_slice
It was more than a "decent" showing, Galactus was single handedly defending against and holding his own against an Entity powerful enough to take on several abstracts at once (among them included a handful of Celestials).
You ever hear that saying "Even the sun shines on a dog's ass every once in a while"? This was a case of that.
Originally posted by zopzop
Read the scan again. When the FF fought Kang at that very spot, Kang who was attempting to awaken Tiamut, Tiamut didn't even register it. But the very thought of Set's ascension caused him to shudder and moan. Look at the last picture panel, that doesn't look like disgust in his "eyes". It looks more like fear.
Did Kang and Set suddenly somehow become equal in powerlevel or threat level? Because else I don't see any justification in the comparison. No the last panel looks like he is about to cry, hence the moan part, which can be replaced with grief, pain, or dissatisfaction, still a long way from being anything remotely close to "shitting his pants". Either way as said before, it's how you interpret the given scene, luckily what you have presented isn't all the material we have to compare the Celestials against the Elder Gods.
Originally posted by Utrigita
Did Kang and Set suddenly somehow become equal in powerlevel or threat level? Because else I don't see any justification in the comparison.
It was during Inferno and Kang was attempting to free Tiamut, but Tiamut didn't even react (positively or negatively). If the Inferno Event and Kang attempting to free him doesn't register but the mere thought of Set's rise causes him to shudder and moan what does that tell you about Set?
No the last panel looks like he is about to cry, hence the moan part, either way as said before, it's how you interpret the given scene, luckily what you have presented isn't all the material we have to compare the Celestials against the Elder Gods.
Yeah "cry" because he's so big hearted. This was before his Eternals retcon when he was known as the Great Renegade because he committed a crime against life itself (hence why he was imprisoned by the Celestials).
PS when have the Elder Gods even made contact with Celestials?
Originally posted by vince_slice
How do you think Earth's godly Pantheons would fare against the Galactus Engine?
Who knows? They couldn't have fared any worse than Galactus. Korvac admitted that a battle between him and Odin, Zeus and Mephisto would wreck 616 reality. So I'm betting they'd fare pretty well.
Originally posted by zopzop
It was during Inferno and Kang was attempting to free Tiamut, but Tiamut didn't even react (positively or negatively). If the Inferno Event and Kang attempting to free him doesn't register but the mere thought of Set's rise causes him to shudder and moan what does that tell you about Set?
It tells me that Set is a greater threat then Kang, something that I doesn't need a celestial to point out for me. Again why is the comparison even remotely interesting or how does it in any ways serve to strengthen your point that Set either equals or are above the Celestial Tiamut, because Kang wasn't? Is that the argument?
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah "cry" because he's so big hearted. This was before his Eternals retcon when he was known as the Great Renegade because he committed a crime against life itself (hence why he was imprisoned by the Celestials).
It's another interpretation, that is certainly more valid imo then thinking that one of the stongest Celestial should be afraid of a Elder God, when you think of what a unknown could do to a cube level being. A crime that at the time was rather vague, today we know that he fought to perserve the cycle that his brothers where breaking, actually we also know from scans that Tiamut toke a active part in trimming down the Defiants. However is this relevant? Not really, if anything Tiamut could (if we apply the current information to the past incident) just by pissed that he would never (if the earth was destroyed) have the chance to correct the error his brothers did.
Originally posted by zopzop
PS when have the Elder Gods even made contact with Celestials?
They didn't but suffice to say that Atum in his demon form chased them off, I for one find it logical that the Celestials could have handled the Elder Gods easily, unless you have some scans that point to the elder gods possible confrontation with Arishem, instead of Odin, Vishnu and Zeus, having a significantly different outcome, I don't see any reason to even assume that Tiamut was afraid of Set.
Originally posted by vince_slice
I think its quite clear Galactus was depicted as the most powerful abstract present in TI.
Not clearly enough apparently.
Originally posted by vince_slice
You had several abstracts fighting the Galactus Engine, including a handful of Celestials and Galactus himself. We know they were losing because Aegis died fighting it, and narration repeatedly said the Abstracts were struggling to defend against the Engine. By the end, it was Galactus fighting the Engine himself. Surfer reinforces this by saying if Galactus can't stop it, then they'll lose the battle.It's clear the other abstracts (including the Celestials) either died like Aegis or fled at the end, leaving Galactus to be the last one standing. Galactus was the last one standing and the last obstacle against the engine, which clearly shows he's the most powerful among the abstracts at the fault.
It's clear? Where was this stated? Aegis was shown dying but I don't recall any fleeing.
You're assuming all the other Abstracts died, and Galactus was left holding the line on his own. That doesn't even make sense. We know that Aegis, Tenebrous, Arishem etc. are definitely on Galan's level. Galactus including all the other Abstracts were fighting the engine on all fronts and we're still losing.
It's far more likely imo that the engine was weakened by the combined forces assembled that by the time it reached Galan, it wasn't strong enough to defeat him if you want to take guesses. That is, if you're assuming all the other Abstracts died fighting or whatever.
Originally posted by Utrigita
It tells me that Set is a greater threat then Kang, something that I doesn't need a celestial to point out for me. Again why is the comparison even remotely interesting or how does it in any ways serve to strengthen your point that Set either equals or are above the Celestial Tiamut, because Kang wasn't? Is that the argument?
You're not understanding my point. Tiamut didn't moan or tremble when Inferno was going down, he didn't react at all when Kang was just outside his mountain prison attempting to free him (hence the reference by the narrator about the Kang/FF fight just outside his prison).
Yet the mere THOUGHT of Set's arrival on Earth (he wasn't even free of his dimension yet) caused a Celestial to shudder and moan.
It's another interpretation, that is certainly more valid imo then thinking that one of the stongest Celestial should be afraid of a Elder God, when you think of what a unknown could do to a cube level being. A crime that at the time was rather vague, today we know that he fought to perserve the cycle that his brothers where breaking, actually we also know from scans that Tiamut toke a active part in trimming down the Defiants. However is this relevant? Not really, if anything Tiamut could (if we apply the current information to the past incident) just by pissed that he would never (if the earth was destroyed) have the chance to correct the error his brothers did.
No his crime wasn't vague at all. He was the one that altered Galactus, against Galactus' will by the way, to make his hunger insatiable and caused him to consume the universe. This was the timeline that the FF wiped out by giving Galactus the Nullifier.
So this "big hearted" being who devised a doomsday weapon to wipe out an entire universe wasn't weeping at all.
They didn't but suffice to say that Atum in his demon form chased them off, I for one find it logical that the Celestials could have handled the Elder Gods easily, unless you have some scans that point to the elder gods possible confrontation with Arishem, instead of Odin, Vishnu and Zeus, having a significantly different outcome, I don't see any reason to even assume that Tiamut was afraid of Set.
We don't know since they never made contact with each other. By the way it seems that Marvel is retconning some Elder Gods' origins. Look at Gaea and Chaos War.
Look at Set in the Secret Avengers :
The whole point of the 4 story arc was to stop one of his children from rising from beneath Mars and freeing his other siblings before they went on to unleash their Father, Set, upon the universe.
Originally posted by zopzop
We don't know since they never made contact with each other. By the way it seems that Marvel is retconning some Elder Gods' origins. Look at Gaea and Chaos War.
Damn, forgot about that arc. The Demuirge origin is completely forgotten even for the Elder Gods. Set being older than Galan and the Celestials makes no sense using it. Neither is Gaea being the mother of all creation or whatever.
As the Gods rise, the Abstracts fall.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not clearly enough apparently.It's clear? Where was this stated? Aegis was shown dying but I don't recall any fleeing.
[b]You're assuming all the other Abstracts died, and Galactus was left holding the line on his own
. That doesn't even make sense. We know that Aegis, Tenebrous, Arishem etc. are definitely on Galan's level. Galactus including all the other Abstracts were fighting the engine on all fronts and we're still losing.It's far more likely that the engine was weakened by the combined forces assembled that by the time it reached Galan, it wasn't strong enough to defeat him. That is, if you're assuming all the other Abstracts died fighting. [/B]
Not clear enough for you I guess.
I never assumed the bolded, I said it's likely they either fled or they died like Aegis, and that's why they disappeared. Unless you think they took a short lunch break?
Far more likely the engine was weakened? Show me anything in the entire TI books that even remotely indicate the Galactus Engine was weakened by the end. I have all the scans, refer me to any shred of proof of your statement.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Damn, forgot about that arc. The Demuirge origin is completely forgotten even for the Elder Gods. Set being older than Galan and the Celestials makes no sense using it. Neither is Gaea being the mother of all creation or whatever.As the Gods rise, the Abstracts fall.
Dude if you never read the story I recommend you do. It had that "Prince of Darkness" by John Carpenter feel to it. It was very well done.
I read the story. Liked it.
Originally posted by vince_slice
Not clear enough for you I guess.I never assumed the bolded, I said it's likely they either fled or they died like Aegis, and that's why they disappeared. Unless you think they took a short lunch break?
Far more likely the engine was weakened? Show me anything in the entire TI books that even remotely indicate the Galactus Engine was weakened by the end. I have all the scans, refer me to any shred of proof of your statement.
I can re-read the story if need be. Just tell me the most relevant issue number. IIRC, they didn't focus that much on the Abstracts.
Be more specific. When you quote a post, everything is automatically bolded. I don't think any of them fled. Not with what was at stake. It's possible the Celestials might have gotten bored and just left. Most likely in my opinion, there physical bodies fell fighting (Doubt any of them really died. At least not the Celestials).
Just common sense. If we're taking pot shots at what most likely happened, that's by far the most likely scenario in my opinion. If Galactus could hold the line on his own -which is what you're claiming isn't it?- why the hell were they still losing with a dozen other Abstracts all on his level and some arguably higher? Even if you think Galactus is superior to other Abstracts, you can't possibly believe the gap would be large.
Originally posted by snobsnob
You're not understanding my point. Tiamut didn't moan or tremble when Inferno was going down, he didn't react at all when Kang was just outside his mountain prison attempting to free him (hence the reference by the narrator about the Kang/FF fight just outside his prison).Yet the mere THOUGHT of Set's arrival on Earth (he wasn't even free of his dimension yet) caused a Celestial to shudder and moan.
I ask again why would Tiamut find Kang relevant, and why is the comparison between Kang and Set relevant aswell?
And again the only reason there is anything to shudder and moan is because those two words, from your perspective is implying that a Celestial should feel fear because of Set.
Originally posted by snobsnob
No his crime wasn't vague at all. He was the one that altered Galactus, against Galactus' will by the way, to make his hunger insatiable and caused him to consume the universe. This was the timeline that the FF wiped out by giving Galactus the Nullifier.So this "big hearted" being who devised a doomsday weapon to wipe out an entire universe wasn't weeping at all.
In a alternate reality that had absolutely nothing to do at all with his imprisonment on Earth, which happened when the second Celestial host visited Earth iirc. Tiamut was already trapped on Earth when he performed his changes to Galactus.
Two different Tiamut (and at the same time a retconned incident).
Originally posted by snobsnob
We don't know since they never made contact with each other. By the way it seems that Marvel is retconning some Elder Gods' origins. Look at Gaea and Chaos War.Look at Set in the Secret Avengers :
The whole point of the 4 story arc was to stop one of his children from rising from beneath Mars and freeing his other siblings before they went on to unleash their Father, Set, upon the universe.
Yes a retcon that is vague that even the writer has problems formulating exactly in which way Gaea's supposed amp worked in Chaos War. And this doesn't in any way give some mysterious amp to the Elder Gods, being before something doesn't equal that you obtain more power. And until actually changed (which it as of yet haven't) a unknown Celestial was capable of taking out a cube level being, anything that point towards the Elder gods being capable of such a thing?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Even if you assume Galactus is superior to other Abstracts, you can't possibly believe the gap would be large.
Don't forget how Teneberous by himself was giving Galactus a fight and looked like he was getting the better of him till Aegis arrived and ended it instantly.
Originally posted by zopzop
Don't forget how Teneberous by himself was giving Galactus a fight and looked like he was getting the better of him till Aegis arrived and ended it instantly.
True. To be fair, it was said Galactus was caught off guard. Of course that was a retelling in the credit page of the issue, but still, second hand evidence is better than none.
I still don't see how you can believe that Galactus held off the engine off by itself.
Originally posted by Utrigita
I ask again why would Tiamut find Kang relevant, and why is the comparison between Kang and Set relevant aswell?And again the only reason there is anything to shudder and moan is because those two words, from your perspective is implying that a Celestial should feel fear because of Set.
Kang was battling the FF outside Tiamut's prison while attempting to free him. Tiamut didn't even acknowledge the fight as mentioned by the narrator.
Yeah I shudder and moan about the approach of things that are beneath me all the time! Everyone does! 🙄
In a alternate reality that had absolutely nothing to do at all with his imprisonment on Earth, which happened when the second Celestial host visited Earth iirc. Tiamut was already trapped on Earth when he performed his changes to Galactus.Two different Tiamut (and at the same time a retconned incident).
The point was, at that time Tiamut was considered "evil". The Eternals retconn didn't come into play until over a decade later.
Yes a retcon that is vague that even the writer has problems formulating exactly in which way Gaea's supposed amp worked in Chaos War. And this doesn't in any way give some mysterious amp to the Elder Gods, being before something doesn't equal that you obtain more power. And until actually changed (which it as of yet haven't) a unknown Celestial was capable of taking out a cube level being, anything that point towards the Elder gods being capable of such a thing?
You got proof, not talk, of a Celestial taking out a Cube level being? Because despite what Kubik said, the Celestials best feats don't compare, at all, to Cube Beings. I give you Kubik vs Beyonder and MM vs Beyoner/Kosmos and compare that to the Celestials vs Thanos with the IG. I rest my case.
