The Gorgon and Omega Red vs Thor in Melee Fight

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
To argue that Wolverine DIDN'T use his claws on Thor that time is sheer foolishness, man. Come on, dude!!!

Since when has Wolverine ever used the double-fists-in-front stance when PUNCHING an opponent? Artwork implies that it was claws and pure motivation (wherein Logan believes he was fighting Creed) would point out to him using his claws as well. Common sense.

Oh that's right it's something that can't solidified either way since you can't see it.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
As for your arguments:
You don't see his costume and back in this panel. And future panels tend not to show superficial damage done to Thor (as per the prior injuries he suffered from Logan not being shown in this panel).

That makes no sense. You also have to put your bid of faith into the notion seeing as it's the only "wound" that Thor doesn't make mention of in narration or get a close up for emphasis.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Irrelevant as Wolverine CAN retract his claws at will. One could argue that he automatically retracted his claws as soon as he was batted away so he wouldn't accidentally fall on them and injure himself (w/c makes more sense than him double fist-punching his opponent in the back for fun).

It takes a lot more twisting to conjure up that he had his claws out to attack and suddenly sheathed them....yeah... 😏
... than it does to argue that he just didn't have them out to begin with.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So he did.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Not really, it simply looks like he stabbed Tho, did superficial damage and got swatted away. How can you read interpret it any other way?

So.... Wolverine decided to stab Thor in the back. cool.

-The claws barely did damage, even though we KNOW that Wolverine can do MORE damage with a straight shot than a swipe and he already cut Thor? Illogical.

-The claws were sheathed as SOON as he was hit with Mjolnir (because we see it isn't immediately after as they're already sheathed)? Illogical

-He sheathed them because he rationalized he didn't want to fall on his own claws AS Mjolnir was hitting him? He had the sense to think that through? Illogical

-He sheathed them because he rationalized he didn't want to fall on his own claws even though he's never been stupid enough to fall on his own claws? Illogical

-He rationalized that he needed to sheath his claws even though he didn't have enough sense about him to keep himself from stabbing himself? Illogical

-Thor was more concerned with the cuts along his ribs than his was puncure wounds in his back from Wolverine stabbing him? Illogical

Yeah that's a lot better then just assuming that Wolverine jumped on Thor's back and Thor's scream was either in reaction to frustration/surprise or because he'd already been wounded in the fight and Wolverine jumping on him resulted contorting his body uncomfortably. 🙄

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So your interpretation is:

Wolverine attacked (who, in his mind is Creed) Thor with a double-fisted punch to the back (not a very efficient punch and something that would do bupkiss to Creed) doing no damage to Thor but aggravating the minor injuries he had making him yell in pain?

Rather than this interpretation:

Wolverine stabbed (who, in his mind is Creed) Thor in the back (w/c would prolly be what he would do to Creed), doing superficial damage, making him yell in pain?

:-/

I mean, who even DOES a double fisted punch in comics or IRL???

I mean, via that position, it would be better to argue that Wolverine PUSHED Thor.

What do you think? A superficial laceration to his side,where there are no major organs or arteries was a detriment to Thor in that issue. If Wolverine had indeed stabbed Thor in the back even slightly he would have been dealing with punctured lungs. So what? Thor shrugs off being stabbed in the back, but is bothered by minor lacerations from a glancing blow? Really? There is a reason he spent the whole issue with claw marks on his face and side, but there was no battle damage evident on his back, it's because there was none.

Originally posted by Starscream M
a 300 pound man to a CL100 herald is like if a fly landed on your back.

If I stab you in the side and then hit you in the back with a pillow, what are you thinking? Cinnamon rainbow unicorn feelings or immense pain?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Not impressive? the hammer hadn't even reached him by the time he finished turning around and it was only a few micro-seconds away when he unleashes(note the tense used) the punch from the previous panel.

That feat is far, far, far better than any of Wolverine's speed feats.

It may or may not be a speed feat that implies nanosecond speed, if it is, Wolverine has them too.

Either way it doesn't make Thor look faster, just looks like a single feat outside the norm if it's a feat at all.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So your interpretation is:

Wolverine attacked (who, in his mind is Creed) Thor with a double-fisted punch to the back (not a very efficient punch and something that would do bupkiss to Creed) doing no damage to Thor but aggravating the minor injuries he had making him yell in pain?

Rather than this interpretation:

Wolverine stabbed (who, in his mind is Creed) Thor in the back (w/c would prolly be what he would do to Creed), doing superficial damage, making him yell in pain?

:-/

I mean, who even DOES a double fisted punch in comics or IRL???

I mean, via that position, it would be better to argue that Wolverine PUSHED Thor.

😠YEAH SRANK! WOLVERINE WOULD NEVER DOUBLE PUNCH CREED, GO READ A COMIC IDIOT! 😠

😮

There is nothing in the narrative that says or implies that the hammer slowed down, so even viewing the scene in the worst possible light for Thor's speed, he still made at least a partial turn and grabbed the hammer within a few mirco-seconds.

That still places the feat far above Wolverine's best.

Originally posted by jinzin
😠YEAH SRANK! WOLVERINE WOULD NEVER DOUBLE PUNCH CREED, GO READ A COMIC IDIOT! 😠

😮

What noob. 😎

Wolverine gave freaking gave Doop a black eye, Thor's lucky Wolverine decided not to punch him. 😈

Originally posted by Silent Master
There is nothing in the narrative that says or implies that the hammer slowed down, so even viewing the scene in the worst possible light for Thor's speed, he still made at least a partial turn and grabbed the hammer within a few mirco-seconds.

That still places the feat far above Wolverine's best.

I didn't say it slowed down I said it homes in on Thor to his grasp, something he even mentions on panel... 😐

And no.. it doesn't.

Then post feats of Wolverine reacting in mircoseconds.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, when Thor struck Exitar's dome, the shockwave ripped cities into shreds and smashed mountain ranges miles away.

Yes, it would do a LOT to these 2.

thor even has mjolnir so he can replicate that same thing on the ground.

YouTube video

^ this by a magnitude of several thousand, repeated back to back

Originally posted by jinzin
Who says he was punching Thor?

What other "interpretations" are there?

Originally posted by jinzin

Are you sure that isn't Wolverine just trying to get a good hold on Thor since they're in flight?

Ahhh! I see... The "pushed Thor or grabbing Thor making him yell in pain" interpretation? Wow. Thor MUST be a wimp if some midget guy grabbing his cape made him yell out in pain....

Does that really make sense to you?

Originally posted by jinzin
Oh that's right it's something that can't solidified either way since you can't see it.

Except that:

1) Motive. Why would Wolverine want to GRAB Creed from the back?
2) Artwork. This position of Wolverine is more commonly
3) Dialogue. What other attack could POSSIBLY make Thor yell out in pain?

This is more evidence than your provided and would most likely be the interpretation of ANY other reasonable person with no cognitive bias (and I mean REALLY REALLY REALLY deep seeded cognitive bias here) already

Originally posted by jinzin
Actually you do see his cape/bac after that specific panel. You also see blood from Thors wounds at the end of the fight.

W/c only really proves that artwork isn't always clear on injuries and clothing damage and such as there was no clear art of damage/injuries in the panels AFTER he was stabbed.

Originally posted by jinzin
Do you think it's reasonable to suggest that a glancing/swiping cut across his ribs was more damaging to Thor's body than a full fledged two fisted stab into his kidney area? 😕

The artwork isn't really clear on the location of the stab. Could be he stabbed a little higher up in the back, at the shoulder blades.

You can cut someone's skin easily with a box cutter, but penetrating him thru the shoulder blades, thru solid bone and muscle, is a LOT harder.

Originally posted by jinzin
Because that's what he was babying after the fight.

Hard to "nurse" something that's on your back that way, tbh.

Originally posted by jinzin
That makes no sense. You also have to put your bid of faith into the notion seeing as it's the only "wound" that Thor doesn't make mention of in narration or get a close up for emphasis.

Why would the artist/writer NEED to emphasize ALL the wounds that occurs in a fight? This is hardly done in any comic. They simply need to show that damage occurs thru one or two wounds and it would get their message across.

Originally posted by jinzin
It's not irrelivent as we don't see Wolverine retracting his claws, we don't read/hear Wolverine retracting his claws, and there's no logical reason for him to retract his claws after being hit by mjolnir unless you think of course he was planning his next step after being hit... BY FREAKIN MJOLNIR.

Actually, a LOT of reasons why he would retract his claws:
1) He was falling. He didn't wanna accidentally stab himself when he hits the ground (w/c makes sense).
2) Perhaps the impact of the blow made him twitch enough to retract his claws as a reaction.
3) Artwork was pretty inconsistent all throughout, no reason why he'd be consistent here. :-/

Originally posted by jinzin
It takes a lot more twisting to conjure up that he had his claws out to attack and suddenly sheathed them....yeah... 😏
... than it does to argue that he just didn't have them out to begin with.

Actually, it doesn't. If you follow argument 1 or 3. Admittedly, 2 is a bit of a stretch but nowhere NEAR the stretch of logic needed for your interpretation to be viable.

Originally posted by jinzin
If he can cut something with a swiping blow he can certainly stab it.

I agree here. But extent of damage or how DEEP you can cut depends on what you are cutting.

Again, it is FAR easier to cut long wounds on the skin than it is to peirce solid muscle and bone, try it sometime, buy a leg of lamb and stab it with a knife thru the bone and see how far you get.

Originally posted by jinzin
Because I'm using reason, or rationale that adheres to some form of logic. 😕

It might seem that way to you, but to anyone else, it looks like you're using extreme leaps of logic to try and prove an extremely likely scenario due to some extreme case of cognitive conclusion bias on ur part.

Originally posted by jinzin
So.... Wolverine decided to stab Thor in the back. cool.

-The claws barely did damage, even though we KNOW that Wolverine can do MORE damage with a straight shot than a swipe and he already cut Thor? Illogical.

-The claws were sheathed as SOON as he was hit with Mjolnir (because we see it isn't immediately after as they're already sheathed)? Illogical

-He sheathed them because he rationalized he didn't want to fall on his own claws AS Mjolnir was hitting him? He had the sense to think that through? Illogical

-He sheathed them because he rationalized he didn't want to fall on his own claws even though he's never been stupid enough to fall on his own claws? Illogical

-He rationalized that he needed to sheath his claws even though he didn't have enough sense about him to keep himself from stabbing himself? Illogical

-Thor was more concerned with the cuts along his ribs than his was puncure wounds in his back from Wolverine stabbing him? Illogical

-Not exactly. Damage done is relative to what you're hitting. If that was the shoulder blades with solid bone and muscle on it, makes sense that he didn't get too deep in.

-He didn't know Mjolnir struck him (and Thor only seemed to have swatted him away than tried to deal real damage to him) YOU'RE the one who argues about his uber reaction time, why wouldn't he be able to retract his claws to get a better/safer position on his landing?

-Actually, ppl REFLEXIBLY tuck themselves into a ball when they fall to avoid landing incorrectly and injuring themselves, no reason why Logan wouldn't reflexibly retract his claws to get a better position on his landing and to avoid injuring himself. Would be the smart thing to do and would go in line with basic combat skills needed when wielding dangerously sharp objects on ur wrists.

-The wounds could have been deflected by his muscle and bone. Also, LONG, WIDER wounds tend to hurt more than slightly deep smaller wounds. Also, as the wounds were at his back, what POSSIBLE way could the artist have drawn "concern for injury" here w/o making Thor look silly? I mean COME ON!

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah that's a lot better then just assuming that Wolverine jumped on Thor's back and Thor's scream was either in reaction to frustration/surprise or because he'd already been wounded in the fight and Wolverine jumping on him resulted contorting his body uncomfortably. 🙄

Actually, it is a lot better. That is, if you don't tunnel vision from too much Cognitive Bias. :-/

Originally posted by jinzin
😠YEAH SRANK! WOLVERINE WOULD NEVER DOUBLE PUNCH CREED, GO READ A COMIC IDIOT! 😠

😮

Well, I stand corrected, double punches DO happen in comics
(as silly as it is). Why didn't Wolverine just STAB Creed and ended it right there? Would like to see the context of this issue.

Low healing factor feat for Creed if that injuried him at all. :-/

Thor vs The Crusader: Part 1

Thor vs The Crusader: Part 2

Wolverine vs The Crusader:

Notice the difference? That is about how much trouble Wolverine would have with Thor in a melee confrontation.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Ahhh! I see... The "pushed Thor or grabbing Thor making him yell in pain" interpretation? Wow. Thor MUST be a wimp if some midget guy grabbing his cape made him yell out in pain....

Does that really make sense to you?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Except that:

1) Motive. Why would Wolverine want to GRAB Creed from the back?
2) Artwork. This position of Wolverine is more commonly
3) Dialogue. What other attack could POSSIBLY make Thor yell out in pain?

1. In character: could be to get ahold of his mane in order to get in better position for a more effective strike. Striking from a superior position is hard to do if the person under you offsets your base. Stabbing Creed in the back would do little to beat him.
In reality: Because both Thor and Sabretooth are established Marvel characters and as such Wolverine as to be toned down as much as the next guy.
2. Is more commonly what? Related to a strike I'm guessing? I would agree with you if it wasn't for the context of the rest of the issue. In fact I did agree with you the first time I skimmed the fight.
3. Again, Thor was already wounded a couple of times during that fight, Wolverine wouldn't necessarily have to attack him to make him yell out. He was obviously bothered by his wounds. OOORRRRR there was the other part of my argument which related to the noise being that of frustration or surprise, which is plausible.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This is more evidence than your provided and would most likely be the interpretation of ANY other reasonable person with no cognitive bias (and I mean REALLY REALLY REALLY deep seeded cognitive bias here) already

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
W/c only really proves that artwork isn't always clear on injuries and clothing damage and such as there was no clear art of damage/injuries in the panels AFTER he was stabbed.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The artwork isn't really clear on the location of the stab. Could be he stabbed a little higher up in the back, at the shoulder blades.
You can cut someone's skin easily with a box cutter, but penetrating him thru the shoulder blades, thru solid bone and muscle, is a LOT harder.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Hard to "nurse" something that's on your back that way, tbh.

There's no logical reason he'd be more hurt by a glancing shot to the ribs than being stabbed in the back simple as.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Why would the artist/writer NEED to emphasize ALL the wounds that occurs in a fight? This is hardly done in any comic. They simply need to show that damage occurs thru one or two wounds and it would get their message across.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, a LOT of reasons why he would retract his claws:
1) He was falling. He didn't wanna accidentally stab himself when he hits the ground (w/c makes sense).
2) Perhaps the impact of the blow made him twitch enough to retract his claws as a reaction.
3) Artwork was pretty inconsistent all throughout, no reason why he'd be consistent here. :-/

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, it doesn't. If you follow argument 1 or 3. Admittedly, 2 is a bit of a stretch but nowhere NEAR the stretch of logic needed for your interpretation to be viable.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I agree here. But extent of damage or how DEEP you can cut depends on what you are cutting.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Again, it is FAR easier to cut long wounds on the skin than it is to peirce solid muscle and bone, try it sometime, buy a leg of lamb and stab it with a knife thru the bone and see how far you get.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
It might seem that way to you, but to anyone else, it looks like you're using extreme leaps of logic to try and prove an extremely likely scenario due to some extreme case of cognitive conclusion bias on ur part.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
-Not exactly. Damage done is relative to what you're hitting. If that was the shoulder blades with solid bone and muscle on it, makes sense that he didn't get too deep in.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
-He didn't know Mjolnir struck him (and Thor only seemed to have swatted him away than tried to deal real damage to him) YOU'RE the one who argues about his uber reaction time, why wouldn't he be able to retract his claws to get a better/safer position on his landing?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
-Actually, ppl REFLEXIBLY tuck themselves into a ball when they fall to avoid landing incorrectly and injuring themselves,

No they don't...

People tend to panic while falling, often opting to push out towards the ground.

It's why we have to spend so much time teaching breakfalling to people who don't know how to fall in judo, otherwise there would be tons of broken arms and wrists in beginners class.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
no reason why Logan wouldn't reflexibly retract his claws to get a better position on his landing and to avoid injuring himself. Would be the smart thing to do and would go in line with basic combat skills needed when wielding dangerously sharp objects on ur wrists.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
-The wounds could have been deflected by his muscle and bone. Also, LONG, WIDER wounds tend to hurt more than slightly deep smaller wounds. Also, as the wounds were at his back, what POSSIBLE way could the artist have drawn "concern for injury" here w/o making Thor look silly? I mean COME ON!

Reaching for his back, reaching over his shoulder... a number of ways... don't pretend that they had "no choice" because they didn't want Thor to look silly.. now you're being silly.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, it is a lot better. That is, if you don't tunnel vision from too much Cognitive Bias. :-/

Thor loses to these 2 in this particular scenario.

Why is this still opened?

Spite...

Gorgon stomps.

Thor ftw!