The Gorgon and Omega Red vs Thor in Melee Fight

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Because I was spot on in my statement. Or are you saying Thor's TP isn't spotty? We all know it is, so tell me what about my statement was false

Not really. Define spotty. I think Thor's telepathic resistance fluctuates from comic to comic but his lowest showing is being hypnotized by the Radioactive Man's radiation pulses or whatever probably. In comparison, Thor has various high end showings. That last part is what I disagreed with. The claim was ridiculous. Thor even showed his own telepathy back in the Lee day's, and recently in Chaos War he protected his worshiper from the Chaos King's mental attack (Using Nightmare's powers) which took out everyone from Captain America to Wolverine to Nova Prime.

Originally posted by jinzin
This isn't hard to understand Rage, he stopped Hyperion after Hyperion landed his attack. He got blitzed. He wasn't able to react to his speed, he just batted him away while Hyperion was pushing on him. It's not hard to connect a punch on someone who's basically trying to tackle you. I shouldn't have to explain something this simple.

Are you blind? Hyperion attacks Thor while moving at super speed, and Thor bats him away right after. What kind of argument is that? Clearly Hyperion was in “super speed” mode when he attacked Thor and the panel where Thor strikes him is directly after that in sequence.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah it does, because in spite of his orders he wasn't bloodlusted.

Gladiator was clearly blood lusted. He was out to kill Thor. He tried to kill Thor in his human form by holding the daughter of his girlfriend hostage. GTFO.

Originally posted by jinzin
He flat out states he's hardly using his best. The fact that he's flying immediately after isn't an indication that he is, especially talking in calm manner... and Thor got blitzed anyway.

Ignoring the fact that it’s shit talking, Gladiator says Thor hasn’t seen his best before Gladiator attacks. That’s an indication that what followed up was Gladiator’s best. Someone doesn’t have to be screaming in a rage to be fighting at his best or being out for blood. GTFO.

facepalm Are you f[i]ucking[/i] kidding me? This is Starscream level stupidity.

You and I clearly have very different definitions of a blitz. And it’s still a better feat than anything Wolverine has done.

Originally posted by jinzin
Sure it does, because Gladiator wasn't bloodlusted, and flat out stated he was hardly using his best.

facepalmx2

Originally posted by jinzin
You interpretation... which may or may not be accurate.

My interpretation is accurate. It’s the only interpretation I’ve ever see someone get from that scan except the idiot brigade.

Originally posted by jinzin
Thor has never proven resistance to Adamantium weaponry and in fact every bit of evidence confirms otherwise, I'm sorry you don't like that FACT but I don't know what else to tell you. It's not alow showing, it's the consistency according to Marvel.
Just as it's the consistency for Thor that operating at that level of speed would be FAR outside of Thor's typical showings and you don't need to be a Thor expert to know that.

I don’t see how any of that is relevant to what you replied to. Thor’s only encountered Adamantium weaponry once, and he did in fact prove to be resistant to the attack. I don’t think Adamantium should be unable to penetrate Thor’s skin. I however do think Logan or Gorgon should be unable to cut Thor. I can accept Wolverine doing superficial damage as a result of plot needs but this isn’t a comic book. Gorgon isn’t cutting Thor. Not the way you guys think. Slicing and dicing Thor to pieces, tossing the sword through his head? That shit is ridiculous. Gorgon is doing at best as much harm as the Disir. If he was capable of doing what you guys claim, Thor would bled to death by something as simply as a punch from the Destroyer. He would have at least lost an eye by now. Hela should have cut Thor in half recently too.

Originally posted by jinzin
Except that he doesn't which two of your "pro" Thor feats display.

The opposite.

Originally posted by jinzin
Again, I don't know what to tell you. Heimdall attempted to block the attack. The panel confirms this through narration. It's not really up for debate.

Heimdall had his sort up in a defensive manner throughout the entire encounter. And I don’t see how that changes the feat.

Originally posted by jinzin
Why? Because he doesn't agree with your viewpoints on the matter? I've read a good chunk of his ongoings since his second series and a number of his appearances in Avengers books plus a mass of other classic appearances and you apparently think I don't know anything about Thor because I don't think he's some speedster in combat.
It's absurd.

Because he seems to know actually know very little about Thor. Or his bias for the all things short, hairy and Canadian has blinded him to them. Don’t put words in my mouth. I think you know little about Thor not because you don’t think Thor’s a speedster in combat (His not. Not by my definition of a speedster. Neither is Logan by the way), but because of your overall lacking knowledge of Thor. Or once again, you like Skrank may simply be unwilling to accept his capabilities.

Originally posted by jinzin
Well that's already a skewed perspective as it's just like the Hyperion example, Wolverine jumps Thor, Wolverine's on Thor and THEN Thor reacts... Anyways.. This is the problem of KMC. No one said that Wolverine's so fast he can't be touched by Thor, or that Thor can't dream about hitting Wolverine in a pro-longed battle. That's just nonsense. But Wolverine IS typically faster than Thor in combat. It has nothing to do with dreams, it has to do with TYPICAL representations and ON PANEL proof... all of which you ignore to pretend Thor is a another hero with abilities he supposedly has but never shows.

And it’s still a speed feat. Not as impressive as Thor turning around and batting him away before Logan jumps of course, but pretending it’s not evidence that Thor is at least capable of tagging Thor even when Logan is on his goddamn back, is silly. Pfff. If Thor is as slow as Skrank makes him out to be, Logan shouldn’t have been touched. Skrank claimed Thor is peak human at best. That’s pure bullshit. I posted feats.

You guys ignore or try to invalidate feats. You guys have to resort to this tactic because if you don’t, it’s really not a fight at all.

Originally posted by jinzin
No, not because he hit him hard, that wasn't my argument, you're really living up to Optic Blast's assertion of your context and comprehension issues.

You haven’t presented an actual argument yet. What other reason could there be except Logan strike hurting Thor? I have no idea what Optic Blast claimed nor do I give a shit.

Originally posted by jinzin
Thinking Thor was either surprised, frustrated, or ALREADY in pain from his previous injuries which he's nursing later is not silly... and not nearly as silly as pretending that Wolverine can't puncture him after watching Wolverine cut him with swipes. It's not nearly as silly as watching Thor nursing his ribs and pretending that being stabbed in the back isn't more damaging.

Surprise and frustration? facepalmx3

Thor clearly yelled out in pain you moron. Did Thor go around moaning or groaning? Did Thor have spasms of pain when he swung his hammer etc? No, he did not. Thor already being in pain is bullshit.

I didn’t say Logan didn’t puncture him. Never. Not once. I however did post that as evidence because it completely disproves the silly assertions presented about Logan slicing and dicing Thor. He made superficial cuts with the one to the ribs causing a noticeable amount of damage compared to the rest for some reason.

Originally posted by jinzin
I already agreed that the art wasn't consistent.

Wasn’t consistent? 😂

Is that what you call the previous two pages completely disproving that potential -and silly- stance?

Originally posted by jinzin
Does it destroy the stance that being stabbed in the back would be more damaging than being sliced in the ribs? Cause well... it doesn't.

😬

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

facepalm Are you f[i]ucking[/i] kidding me? This is Starscream level stupidity.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Are you blind? Hyperion attacks Thor while moving at super speed, and Thor bats him away right after. What kind of argument is that? Clearly Hyperion was in “super speed” mode when he attacked Thor and the panel where Thor strikes him is directly after that in sequence.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Gladiator was clearly blood lusted. He was out to kill Thor. He tried to kill Thor in his human form by holding the daughter of his girlfriend hostage. GTFO.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Ignoring the fact that it’s shit talking, Gladiator says Thor hasn’t seen his best before Gladiator attacks. That’s an indication that what followed up was Gladiator’s best. Someone doesn’t have to be screaming in a rage to be fighting at his best or being out for blood. GTFO.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm Are you f[i]ucking[/i] kidding me? This is Starscream level stupidity.

You and I clearly have very different definitions of a blitz. And it’s still a better feat than anything Wolverine has done.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalmx2

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
My interpretation is accurate. It’s the only interpretation I’ve ever see someone get from that scan except the idiot brigade.

"Notice how my theories in line with the facts, and yours isn't? That is because I adapt my theories to suit facts, and you twist facts to suit theories"

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don’t see how any of that is relevant to what you replied to. Thor’s only encountered Adamantium weaponry once, and he did in fact prove to be resistant to the attack. I don’t think Adamantium should be unable to penetrate Thor’s skin. I however do think Logan or Gorgon should be unable to cut Thor. I can accept Wolverine doing superficial damage as a result of plot needs but this isn’t a comic book. Gorgon isn’t cutting Thor. Not the way you guys think. Slicing and dicing Thor to pieces, tossing the sword through his head? That shit is ridiculous. Gorgon is doing at best as much harm as the Disir. If he was capable of doing what you guys claim, Thor would bled to death by something as simply as a punch from the Destroyer. He would have at least lost an eye by now. Hela should have cut Thor in half recently too.

As I said before, at the Marvel editorial staff Wolverine cuts Thor in canon, out of canon, and everything in between. So you're wrong.

I honestly don't think Gorgon or Wolverine can slice and dice Thor to pieces, nor was it MY argument that a sword would be tossed through Thor's head so stop generalizing my argument and putting words into my mouth to suit yourself.
Wolverine's claws, and the like is CLEARLY on another level than most other bladed weaponry. Even if Destroyer's as durable as Adamantium Beta, or 1st grade Adamantium it doesn't mean those spikes are of the same level of cutting effeciency. You're comparing apples and oranges all over again.
Because someone who wasn't Wolverine didn't cut Thor with a different piece of weaponry doesn't mean Wolverine can't. You would need evidence to prove something like that, and that evidence doesn't exist.
All the EVIDENCE actually points to the opposite.
Wolverine cutting beings like Thanos, Herc, WWH, and Nafaria.
Wolverine cutting Thor himself multiple times. You ignoring such a large amount of evidence is ludicrous to say the least. The fact that Hercules is deathly afraid of Logan's claws is enough to suggest that he'd be able to cut Thor. You're just acting like a child right now.... or like one of these guys 😕

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The opposite.

Honeslty if you can't even try and twist my words around without attacking yourself in the process, there's no need for you to criticize my interpretation of things.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Heimdall had his sort up in a defensive manner throughout the entire encounter. And I don’t see how that changes the feat.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Because he seems to know actually know very little about Thor. Or his bias for the all things short, hairy and Canadian has blinded him to them. Don’t put words in my mouth. I think you know little about Thor not because you don’t think Thor’s a speedster in combat (His not. Not by my definition of a speedster. Neither is Logan by the way), but because of your overall lacking knowledge of Thor. Or once again, you like Skrank may simply be unwilling to accept his capabilities.

The fact that I don't means I don't know anything about Thor? That couldn't be any further from the truth. Anyone with even a passing familiarity of Thor's performances can attest to his typically average speed in combat.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And it’s still a speed feat. Not as impressive as Thor turning around and batting him away before Logan jumps of course, but pretending it’s not evidence that Thor is at least capable of tagging Thor even when Logan is on his goddamn back, is silly. Pfff. If Thor is as slow as Skrank makes him out to be, Logan shouldn’t have been touched. Skrank claimed Thor is peak human at best. That’s pure bullshit. I posted feats.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You guys ignore or try to invalidate feats. You guys have to resort to this tactic because if you don’t, it’s really not a fight at all.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You haven’t presented an actual argument yet. What other reason could there be except Logan strike hurting Thor? I have no idea what Optic Blast claimed nor do I give a shit.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Surprise and frustration? facepalmx3

Thor clearly yelled out in pain you moron. Did Thor go around moaning or groaning? Did Thor have spasms of pain when he swung his hammer etc? No, he did not. Thor already being in pain is bullshit.

Yeah, again there's nothing clear about it. At all. If Wolverine stabbed him then the following panels art depiction makes no sense.
You don't need to attempt to insult me because you can't think up a good argument. 😉

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I didn’t say Logan didn’t puncture him. Never. Not once. I however did post that as evidence because it completely disproves the silly assertions presented about Logan slicing and dicing Thor. He made superficial cuts with the one to the ribs causing a noticeable amount of damage compared to the rest for some reason.

Clearly you have some issues.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wasn’t consistent? 😂

Is that what you call the previous two pages completely disproving that potential -and silly- stance?

😬

Originally posted by iceman24567
Thor stomps hard

Originally posted by jinzin
No, but then again that wasn't the basis for my argument, and if you think somehow that it was, then it's little wonder that you're asking others about comic book interpretation.

So what exactly is YOUR argument with this comment?:

Originally posted by jinzin
Who says he was punching Thor?
Are you sure that isn't Wolverine just trying to get a good hold on Thor since they're in flight?

Did I misinterpret your meaning (it's possible that I did, tho)?

Or did you post that simply to state that "It cannot be proven that Wolverine did indeed stab Thor" then you'd need to have your own take on things to convince ppl what exactly happened here?

Originally posted by jinzin
1. In character: could be to get ahold of his mane in order to get in better position for a more effective strike. Striking from a superior position is hard to do if the person under you offsets your base. Stabbing Creed in the back would do little to beat him.

Artwork and the context of the story seems to point otherwise. Again, why would Thor yell (and be drawn) in pain if he was just grabbed a hold of?

Originally posted by jinzin
In reality: Because both Thor and Sabretooth are established Marvel characters and as such Wolverine as to be toned down as much as the next guy.

Wolverine is as much an established character as Creed or Thor, the same argument can be made regarding Wolverine and how well he did against Thor here.

Originally posted by jinzin
2. Is more commonly what? Related to a strike I'm guessing? I would agree with you if it wasn't for the context of the rest of the issue. In fact I did agree with you the first time I skimmed the fight.

The sentence musta been cut off when I was arranging my sentences (I tend to cut/paste to rearrange them in proper order relative to quotes). Sorry about that.

Your initial assessment was correct. The problem began when you started overanalyzing the fight. Cognitive bias occurred when you assessed that "Wolverine should have done more damage to Thor if he stabbed him from behind, thus it CAN'T be possible that he stabbed him from behind".

IF this were a RL fight, your arguments would actually hold water . However, this is a comic book fight. For the vast majority of comics out there, writers and artists make it a point to make every page as easy to interpret for the reader as possible. They don 't make it into some sort of puzzle for us to solve by gathering different kinds of hidden "evidences" that are scattered in different panels and then have the reader interpret them in multiple different ways (that is, unless that was the intention to begin with). The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. In this case, the VAST majority of ppl reading this (including yourself) would interpret this scene as Wolverine stabbing Thor in the back.

Originally posted by jinzin
3. Again, Thor was already wounded a couple of times during that fight, Wolverine wouldn't necessarily have to attack him to make him yell out. He was obviously bothered by his wounds. OOORRRRR there was the other part of my argument which related to the noise being that of frustration or surprise, which is plausible.

Doubtful. There's very little in the artwork that seems to indicate him being startled/frustrated. The fact that he was drawn getting HIT with something as he yelled seemed to be implied that it was due to pain, not frustration.

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, no it's not.

To anyone skimming the issue maybe. To anyone reading it, not so much.

I don't think anyone arguing the point here actually just "skimmed the issue".

Originally posted by jinzin

Except that there also was. 😐

Then I will ask again, why would he be more concerned with being cut than being stabbed?

That's ILLOGICAL.

Not really, you're assuming that the stab wound to the back was deep (w/c might not be the case).

Originally posted by jinzin

No. It isn't.

And it's not even a point that he wasn't nursing his back, but that he WAS nursing his ribs.

There's no logical reason he'd be more hurt by a glancing shot to the ribs than being stabbed in the back simple as.

You really don't know the extent of damage done to Thor's back as it was never shown how deep Wolverine got his claws in.

Also, art has been inconsistent in its portrayal of superficial damage.

Originally posted by jinzin

They don't. It's just that every wound Wolverine made, every shot he landed, WAS emphasized during the coarse of the fight, WITH THE EXCEPTION of Wolverine supposedly stabbing Thor in the back.

You think that's coincidence?

Yeah... 🙄 And I remember all the other coincidences that came up the last time Wolverine cut Thor up.

Incorrect, Thor's stomach wounds were NOT shown throughout the portions of the fight where Wolverine stabbed him in the back. Notice the gut damage? It's not shown in some pages then downright emphasized later. Like I said, art = inconsistent.

Originally posted by jinzin

There are reasons, just not logical one as they pretain to Wolverine in that moment.

You know Wolverine was tanking WWH punches to the face and it wasn't causing his claws to auto retract right?

This isn't the WWH issue. The portrayal of Wolverine is different here than there. In this very issue notice how Wolverine's claws were drawn prior to the thrown then retracted as soon as he was tossed (Rage posted the scans)?

Originally posted by jinzin

3rd point... eh I'll give you that, but again it's pretty convenient for your argument.

Well, it's not for convenience, it's just the truth of the artwork.

Originally posted by jinzin

Not really. As Sran already pointed out, if you were stabbed and bleeding out being hit with a pillow or feather wouldn't hurt you, but you still wouldn't be ok.

Actually, I'd be ignoring the pillow (barely a reaction to it, certainly won't go "ARRRGH!" especially when my body's prolly in shock already and can't feel a thing) and be focused intently on my stab wound, tbh.

Originally posted by jinzin

True enough.

That's an irrelivent example as I don't have indestructible blades capible of cutting through anything.

It's actually pretty relevant as it was mentioned in this issue that it was Thor's durability that was keeping him from suffering significant damage.

Originally posted by jinzin

Well that would be a pretty uneducated equally bias viewpoint.

Again, I used to think Wolverine DID stab him, but after more thought on the matter and a more in depth review I began to think that wasn't the case.

Not really. Like I said, this is a comic book. This isn't some sort of detective story either. The artist drew it in a way to demonstrate what he wants in the simplest way possible with the assumption that there would be first time readers picking up the book as well. He doesn't assume that we'd all go detective on the panel and scrutinize every detail to come up with what the different possible versions of what he's trying to portray.

Your first reaction (given you didn't miss any of the text) is usually the correct one.

Originally posted by jinzin

WHY would Wolverine aim for solid bone? Your argument beckons motive to be discussed here, but Creed had a wealth of appearances with an Adamantium skeleton, if Wolverine was trying to stab Creed what would be his motive to bypass organs, and go straight for his shoulder blades instead which may or may not be covered in Adamantium and probably would be if Sabretooth had another upgrade? Again, illogical.

Because ppl don't ALWAYS have a choice where they get to hit someone in a fight?

Granted that might be downplaying Wolverine's accuracy, but aren't you the one who mentioned that Thor, being an established character, might force the writers to downplay certain aspects of his opponents at times?

Originally posted by jinzin

BECAUSE he was hit with Mjolnir... the force of which likely liquified all his organs on impact.

W/c really didn't happen here. :-/ Looks more like Thor swatted him away.

Originally posted by jinzin

It doesn't matter if he knew what he was being hit with, that's not the point, the point is that he would be in a bad state WHILE being hit with Mjolnir, so it hardly makes sense that he would rationalize himself into doing something that he doesn't usually do and retract his claws for fear of a bad landing. Again, illogical.

Didn't look like he suffered much injury when Thor swatted him away. Also, a lot of ppl can still act REFLEXIBLY when falling. One would think someone as trained as Wolverine would be able to do so.

Originally posted by jinzin

No they don't...

People tend to panic while falling, often opting to push out towards the ground.

Sorry, may bad. Meant to say: TRAINED ppl, not ppl in general (tho it's rare finding anyone who hasn't studied some sort of self defense these days where I come from).

Originally posted by jinzin

It's why we have to spend so much time teaching breakfalling to people who don't know how to fall in judo, otherwise there would be tons of broken arms and wrists in beginners class.

See above.

Originally posted by jinzin

No reason other than the fact that he'd probably have a hard time rationalizing a plan as he was hit with Mjolnir, by someone he thought was Creed who he knows he can't afford to stop attacking for fear of Creed's counter. No reason except for the fact that he's well adept with his claws and has tons of fights running/jumping/falling/being hit with C100 blows and NOT retracting his claws on point of impact.

Again, illogical .

Again, different times, different portrayals. In this specific portrayal, he was shown to retract his claws when tossed more than once.

Originally posted by jinzin

No.... 😐

I've been stabbed in the wrist, and I've had my wrist/arm cut. There was a wealth of difference between the two, but only one of those had me unable to use my hand and rushing off to the hospital.

Again, a cut to the gut might warrant a bit more attention than a stab to the shoulder blades. Like I said, you're not Thor, neither am I. Which wounds he chooses to nurse really is up to him (and the artist portraying him), isn't it?

Originally posted by jinzin

Reaching for his back, reaching over his shoulder... a number of ways... don't pretend that they had "no choice" because they didn't want Thor to look silly.. now you're being silly.

This is comics, not RL. :-/ Portrayal of characters have a lot to do with how they look in art more than actual practicality. Or do you think all the "dramatic poses" they like to strut around with is borne out of some sort of practical function?

Originally posted by jinzin

As I've pointed out.. no.. it isn't.

Still is.

Also, can we take this debate somewhere else? Perhaps BZ it or something? Wolverine's not even in this thread.

Also, I apologize for the late reply. RL issues limit my KMC debating time these days. 🙁

If Thor can throw an entire full-body punch in 4 freakin' microseconds..then he can throw 250, 000 per second. That's well enough to obliterate the Hulk in less than half a second. Why can't he do that? No one in Marvel would be able to touch him if he was that fast in combat. I know nothing about Superman but I believe that even he would be beaten to a fine paste if Thor hit him with half a million punches in one second..... ❌

On a side note I honestly don't see what the problem is with Logan stabbing Thor in the back. Perhaps he was counting on crashing through a few ribs and some muscle like he's done to Creed in the past. Thor's muscles might be inpenetrable for Logan's claws which would prevent him from reaching the lungs...not to mention those Asgarian bones. What's that you say? But Logan knows the best way to strike vital organs? Why yes..yes he does - but he also is used to crashing through muscle and bone with ease so he would not see a reason to try and evade them in order to reach the organs easier. It simply would not make a difference if this was in fact Sabretooth he was dealing with. Perhaps he even diliberately wanted to see if Creed regained his adamantium - so he intentionally plunged his claws into his shoulder blades or ribs/muscle to see if he could break through them. That would make sense considering how he fights Creed differently if Creed has adamantium because it would force Logan to avoid stabbing areas which are inpenetrable such as the skull and also to use attacks which directly target the organs as opposed to slicing through bone.

The same could be said for everyone with superspeed......welcome to comics.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The same could be said for everyone with superspeed......welcome to comics.

You serious? You mean...EVERYONE with superspeed can obliterate the Hulk? lolz.

Thor can't throw 250, 000 punches a second and anyone who actually believes he can is..well...lol.

I'm saying that everyone with superspeed has opponents that they could beat in seconds, but for the most part it isn't going to happen because that would make comics boring.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm saying that everyone with superspeed has opponents that they could beat in seconds, but for the most part it isn't going to happen because that would make comics boring.

Well actually..it usually doesn't happen because the other guy has something to counter-act the speed. Speed demon has a hard time with Spiderman and Logan because of their counteractive powers but would without a doubt beat up a normal person in microseconds.

Beating up an opponent isn't the same as turning them into paste because you have the strength to do so. If Thor had speed like that, he would be able to beat HULK in half a second into pure green mush.

I don't know what else to say...you're not putting forth any real argument here. Insinuating that the only reason Thor doesn't pound Hulk into oblivion in half a second just because "it's comics" and "it would be boring" doesn't get us anywhere. We go by feats here and so far Thor has never shown that he is anywhere near 250, 000 punches a second. Anyone who thinks so is dreaming.

Well, to be fair, Hulk HAS reacted to speedsters, himself as well. 😛 Blame comics (especially Marvel) for their inconsistent portrayal of speed for story purposes.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Well, to be fair, Hulk HAS reacted to speedsters, himself as well. 😛 Blame comics (especially Marvel) for their inconsistent portrayal of speed for story purposes.

And this is why you can't just use feats alone...there must be some employment of logic. Hulk reacting to speedsters is PIS. If he actually had that ability, guys like Iron Man, Abomination, Cap, Wolverine etc would NOT be able to touch him. Plus, the idea of lightening fast reflexes doesn't exactly come to mind when imagining the Hulk. Sorry. Somehow I don't think I'm alone on that one...

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
And this is why you can't just use feats alone...there must be some employment of logic. Hulk reacting to speedsters is PIS. If he actually had that ability, guys like Iron Man, Abomination, Cap, Wolverine etc would NOT be able to touch him. Plus, the idea of lightening fast reflexes doesn't exactly come to mind when imagining the Hulk. Sorry. Somehow I don't think I'm alone on that one...

One can also make the argument that Marvel slows down some of the more powerful characters to allow their less powerful characters a chance to win (or at least to make the fights more entertaining).

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
One can also make the argument that Marvel slows down some of the more powerful characters to allow their less powerful characters a chance to win (or at least to make the fights more entertaining).

Happens to Wolverine all the time. He can dodge bullets, even see them in slow motion, yet somehow guys who can't throw punches faster than bullets still end up tagging him. He has enough skill to break apart a rock-man equivolent of Thing with a slap of the hand...he beat four Chi-amping fighters at once using his fists alone and only taking a single blow....yet a bald dude with a screw driver causes him to fall backwards...and by the same writer as the chi amp dude scenario...Mystique can fend him off with a chair. lolz

However, Logan tagging Hulk makes perfect sense considering how each character is designed. Hulk isn't a speedster and doesn't have super reflexes - wasn't designed to be that way at all. Thor might have excellent flight speed but nothing on panel suggests his combat speed is speedster level. There's absolutely no reason to believe the character was designed to be a brick/speedster.

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Happens to Wolverine all the time. He can dodge bullets, even see them in slow motion, yet somehow guys who can't throw punches faster than bullets still end up tagging him. He has enough skill to break apart a rock-man equivolent of Thing with a slap of the hand...he beat four Chi-amping fighters at once using his fists alone and only taking a single blow....yet a bald dude with a screw driver causes him to fall backwards...and by the same writer as the chi amp dude scenario...Mystique can fend him off with a chair. lolz

Yeah, I agree there. I kinda wish Marvel had a big stats book that they followed and would adhere to that consistently and not sacrifice and job characters for story purposes. Makes me feel like I'm reading a WWE storyline sometimes.

I kinda felt that way about Valiant and how they handled their characters. Loved the consistency (during the earlier period of valiant anyway) they had with how each character functioned.

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
However, Logan tagging Hulk makes perfect sense considering how each character is designed. Hulk isn't a speedster and doesn't have super reflexes - wasn't designed to be that way at all. Thor might have excellent flight speed but nothing on panel suggests his combat speed is speedster level. There's absolutely no reason to believe the character was designed to be a brick/speedster.

I dunno, Hulk has been portrayed (even in his early days) to have superhuman reflexes to some extent, even Thor. They surely have the showings. They just suddenly lose it when certain story elements demand that they do.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

I dunno, Hulk has been portrayed (even in his early days) to have superhuman reflexes to some extent, even Thor. They surely have the showings. They just suddenly lose it when certain story elements demand that they do.