The Gorgon and Omega Red vs Thor in Melee Fight

Originally posted by Starscream M
I didn't read that thread, so I don't know what jinzin's reasoning was. even so, I would've disagree with such assessment...but that doesn't mean his logic here in the thor vs wolverine speed argument is false.

you're committing a fallacy of because someone may have been wrong in another instance, they're wrong in every other instance as well.

When he looks at Wonder Woman's greatest speed feats and can't help but appeal to Batman fighting her or "street levelers always deal with lasers" how am I supposed to believe he isn't just resorting to the same arbitrary dismissive attitude here? Can't even admit Thor two-shotted Wolverine, much less that Thor's speed feats are greater and more numerous. Like my posting scans are going to help? Like discussing it constructively over several pages will help? Didn't help in that thread. At all. In an even more obvious case where complete ignorance is apparent.

I don't have much faith here. And little reason to have it.

Originally posted by Newjak
As for the rest of this. Thor on average is yes not shown to be a speedster in reflexes. Yes it seems weird to think of Thor as a speedster, but at least most of the time on a consistent basis when Thor has needed speed he has been able to use it or defeat people with it.

Let's face his high end feats do trump street levels. No street level or Wolverine level character is going to dig a ditch as fast Thor did when needed to stop the lava. No street level is going to be able to be directly behind a running human and then instantly appear in front of them as Thor did with a fleeing Loki. And for reference I'm not talking about out running a human I'm talking about being behind running after Loki to instantly appearing in front of Loki before he could turn his head around. That's either super speed or straight teleportation. I say its speed but whatever.

No Wolverine level character should catch Hermes as Thor did straight grabbing him.

So what I'm saying is yes on average Thor isn't going to appear much faster than these guys but when push comes to shove he can and has done so in the past.

I personally would attribute it to the fact that Thor generally downplays to his opponents level. He shows a lot of restrain with his abilities until he absolutely has to.

Also a new thought I did have and one with a bit of evidence is that Thor may not have his enhanced reflexes set to auto do to him constantly playing down to his opponents abilities. Nothing confirmed but just a thought.

We've recently seen that Thor can see the fabric of time and space itself but he has to focus his godly senses to do so. I'm guessing he may have to focus his godly senses to increase combat speed as well. Along the lines of Superman. Like I said not confirmed but something I thought could interesting to discuss.

Originally posted by Newjak
Ok let's be honest. I don't think anyone disputes here that if Thor fights smart he is gonna win this.

Shockwaves, Hurricane Force Winds, he could simply spin his hammer around and deflect every single one of their attacks cause none of them are moving faster then bullets. Thor fighting smart means these shouldn't lay a hand on him because they would never get the chance to come close to him. That's just fact, none of these guy's can take planetary level strength being used wisely head on and survive.

As for the rest of this. Thor on average is yes not shown to be a speedster in reflexes. Yes it seems weird to think of Thor as a speedster, but at least most of the time on a consistent basis when Thor has needed speed he has been able to use it or defeat people with it.

Let's face his high end feats do trump street levels. No street level or Wolverine level character is going to dig a ditch as fast Thor did when needed to stop the lava. No street level is going to be able to be directly behind a running human and then instantly appear in front of them as Thor did with a fleeing Loki. And for reference I'm not talking about out running a human I'm talking about being behind running after Loki to instantly appearing in front of Loki before he could turn his head around. That's either super speed or straight teleportation. I say its speed but whatever.

No Wolverine level character should catch Hermes as Thor did straight grabbing him.

So what I'm saying is yes on average Thor isn't going to appear much faster than these guys but when push comes to shove he can and has done so in the past.

I personally would attribute it to the fact that Thor generally downplays to his opponents level. He shows a lot of restrain with his abilities until he absolutely has to.

Also a new thought I did have and one with a bit of evidence is that Thor may not have his enhanced reflexes set to auto do to him constantly playing down to his opponents abilities. Nothing confirmed but just a thought.

We've recently seen that Thor can see the fabric of time and space itself but he has to focus his godly senses to do so. I'm guessing he may have to focus his godly senses to increase combat speed as well. Along the lines of Superman. Like I said not confirmed but something I thought could interesting to discuss.

I'd give the duo a few wins, but if Thor isn't playing around...

Originally posted by Newjak

And Starscream the ditch digging feat is a speed feat. He dug a ditch at super speeds. That one is not debatable.

I don't think that is representative of thor's current speed

I don't like ppl using really old feats as representative of characters abilities

marvel may not have the crisis that dc has to rewrite their characters, but regardless the characters are constantly undergoing changes

the thor that was depicted digging a ditch is not the thor today...it was written in a time when hyperbolic feats were much more common (ie thor lifting a serpent the size of earth)

todays characters are written with more realism in mind...even heralds

Originally posted by Starscream M
and what era did that happen in?

I don't think that is representative of thor's current speed

I don't like ppl using really old feats as representative of characters abilities

marvel may not have the crisis that dc has to rewrite their characters, but regardless the characters are constantly undergoing changes

the thor that was depicted digging a ditch is not the thor today...it was written in a time when hyperbolic feats were much more common (ie thor lifting a serpent the size of earth)

todays characters are written with more realism in mind...even heralds

... oh wait, what?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]You had a memorable part in that thread. Maybe that's why you blocked it out of your memory.

I honestly dont remember ever saying batman is faster than wonder woman

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Right. Like no way does Thor do something crazy like catch a fired tank shell in his hand-

... oh wait, what?

if he caught machine gun fire, that would be explicit speed feat

Originally posted by Starscream M
when did that happen? also that debatable as an explicit speed feat

if he caught machine gun fire, that would be explicit speed feat

Tank shell's velocity is greater than that of a bullet.

Originally posted by Starscream M
lol wut?

I honestly dont remember ever saying batman is faster than wonder woman

Originally posted by Newjak
Ok let me rephrase this they would need to move explicitly way faster than bullets for Thor not to be able to do the spinning hammer trick on them.

As Thor has been shown on panel to be able to spin the Hammer faster than light.

And Starscream the ditch digging feat is a speed feat. He dug a ditch at super speeds. That one is not debatable.

Honestly I feel any feets with the hammer in spinning motion are slightly suspect as Thor as attributed his hammer as being the reason for doing so.

As for the ditch digging. It's an impressive feat, and still IMO one of the more impressive real speed feats for Thor, but being too fast for the human eye, and moving at after image speeds are again something Wolverine does. With Thor's strength and a magic hammer Wolverine could do that given his higher level speed feats IMO.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Like a month or two ago?

Tank shell's velocity is greater than that of a bullet.

did he catch just one or several in succession? if the latter, than perhaps he does have faster than logan reflexes. if the former, one can attribute it to perhaps thor predicting where the tank was aiming and having his hand in place to catch it...which wouldnt be a speed feat just as aim dodging isn't.

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tell me what I said regarding WW and batman so either I can defend it or accept my mistake. I honestly dont remember commenting on it though.

Originally posted by Starscream M
tank shells are much bigger than bullets though

did he catch just one or several in succession? if the latter, than perhaps he does have faster than logan reflexes. if the former, one can attribute it to perhaps thor predicting where the tank was aiming and having his hand in place to catch it...which wouldnt be a speed feat just as aim dodging isn't.

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tell me what I said regarding WW and batman so either I can defend it or accept my mistake. I honestly dont remember commenting on it though.

What does it matter? Logan can't catch a tank shell, wth (and I'm talking about the speed necessary). It's not like Thor blocked it with the palm of his hand knowing it was aimed at his face. He snatched it out of the air. Effortlessly. Since when does catching shit faster than bullets become aim dodging? Aim dodging is being out of the path of fire before the projectile is fired. Thor was in the way. Thor had to react and close his fingers around the tank shell to catch it in mid-flight. There's a difference.

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Seriously. You don't want it revived. I'm doing you a favor.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

What does it matter? Logan can't catch a tank shell, wth? It's not like Thor blocked it with the palm of his hand knowing it was aimed at his face. He snatched it out of the air. Effortlessly.

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can you post a link to the wondy vs batman scan at least? I want to see for myself

It "could" be true but it likely isn't.

As Thor has better speed feats, him being faster is likely true.

Originally posted by jinzin
Honestly I feel any feets with the hammer in spinning motion are slightly suspect as Thor as attributed his hammer as being the reason for doing so.

As for the ditch digging. It's an impressive feat, and still IMO one of the more impressive real speed feats for Thor, but being too fast for the human eye, and moving at after image speeds are again something Wolverine does. With Thor's strength and a magic hammer Wolverine could do that given his higher level speed feats IMO.

Based simply upon how fast he can spin the hammer which he has used to deflect multiple incoming attacks. That is of course if they get close enough after the shockwave or hurricane force winds, if Thor is fighting smart.

As for the ditch digging feat Thor did not use any of his hammer's abilities he straight dug a ditch with his speed and no I do not think Wolverine level speed would be nearly enough to pull that feat off.

Wolverine has after image feats, and been faster than the eye can follow. He's displayed the speed Thor was attributed with in that scan.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine has after image feats, and been faster than the eye can follow. He's displayed the speed Thor was attributed with in that scan.

I'm not referring to that part at all. Flash has been stated to have the same references in comics image feats and faster than the eye can follow. Does that mean Wolverine can do the same feats Flash did when he was described with those words. The answer is no obviously.

What Thor did in that scan is beyond anything Wolverine's speed has ever been shown to do regardless of description. Digging that ditch would have been a very good speed feat for Quicksilver and it downright would be Wolverine's best feat ever ever.

Originally posted by Newjak

What Thor did in that scan is beyond anything Wolverine's speed has ever been shown to do regardless of description. Digging that ditch would have been a very good speed feat for Quicksilver and it downright would be Wolverine's best feat ever ever.

Originally posted by Starscream M
yet thor SAID logan is too fast for him 😕 (would quicksolver or flash ever say that about an opponent slower than them?)

Feats >>>>> statements.

Originally posted by Newjak
ok

I'm not referring to that part at all. Flash has been stated to have the same references in comics image feats and faster than the eye can follow. Does that mean Wolverine can do the same feats Flash did when he was described with those words. The answer is no obviously.

What Thor did in that scan is beyond anything Wolverine's speed has ever been shown to do regardless of description. Digging that ditch would have been a very good speed feat for Quicksilver and it downright would be Wolverine's best feat ever ever.

Flash moving in after images or being too fast for the eye to follow isn't even beginning to APPROACH the guys best feats of speed... It's a poor comparison to make between him and Thor.

Thor has class 100plus super strength. We've seen one wave of a hand from Hulk or Wendigo lift entire landscapes off the ground, Thor's ability to dig a ditch at speeds Wolverine's shown and described to have isn't a feat that makes Thor faster than Wolverine IMO...

Alternatively, Wolverine's fought so fast he was literally invisible to his opponents while limbs were being chopped off. Do you know how fast you have to move to turn your entire body invisible to the human eye never mind just being too fast for it to properly follow?

For a human sized body? Several times the speed of sound.

Originally posted by jinzin
Flash moving in after images or being too fast for the eye to follow isn't even beginning to APPROACH the guys best feats of speed... It's a poor comparison to make between him and Thor.

Thor has class 100plus super strength. We've seen one wave of a hand from Hulk or Wendigo lift entire landscapes off the ground, Thor's ability to dig a ditch at speeds Wolverine's shown and described to have isn't a feat that makes Thor faster than Wolverine IMO...

Alternatively, Wolverine's fought so fast he was literally invisible to his opponents while limbs were being chopped off. Do you know how fast you have to move to turn your entire body invisible to the human eye never mind just being too fast for it to properly follow?

And that is a poor excuse at trying to downplay the feat. Thor wasn't shown to lift a portion of land up, something he could have done as well, he was shown and stated to move and dig out the area which was a vast distance when you compare it to the city below. Wolverine never could have covered the distance or dug that ditch even with Thor's strength at the rate Thor did. Wolverine's speed is not close enough to do that nor has his ability to move ever been demonstrated to be that.

And so we can get it out of the way Thor was stated to dig the area, not pick up, not muscle the land up, not swing away large chunks, he dug out the land and it was never shown that he was chucking out large portions of the ground.

It was shown that he dug a ditch big enough to direct all the lava from an erupting volcano away from a city moments before the lava could reach it.