The Gorgon and Omega Red vs Thor in Melee Fight

No... see, I just remembered now why I brought up the whole "Thor vs Wolverine is about as stupid as Wonder Woman vs Batman" tangent. Because you've even lowballed Wonder Woman by appealing to Batman and street levelers to bring her down to a level you're more comfortable with.

And Wonder Woman didn't have any more speed feats since. Nice backtracking. You already descended into absurdity. Don't be shy now.

Originally posted by jinzin
It's true that Batman has faired pretty well against Wonder Woman, it's also true that he's done as much on at least several occasions.

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Even hostile against Bats she didn't perform as impressive as she would need to to justify this WW cred.

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You assume she wasn't using her speed even though Batman took her down in midflight in a fight where she was deflecting batarangs... And because I've assessed that after having half a dozen stand offs with street levels where she's nowhere near as impressive as you are making her out to be....

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Please! Being able to react to lasers from every direction is something that Captain America has been able to do in zero gravity. Yes her feat is more impressive because she's actually managing to block each one, but the fact that we've got street levels who can move fast enough to evade each one only shows what we already know.

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Isn't a blitze, she uses the environment to force him into movement and cuts him off. Wolverine's done as much to Speed Demon.

replicated by Spiderman, Wolverine and Cap a dozen times over.

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Again.. high powered rifles and laser fire move faster than the speed of sound and streets are able to react to that shit for some reason though Wonder Woman doing it makes her some incredible speedster when in the same arc she couldn't compensate for bats?

a fullout thor would prob beat gorgon and OR with relative ease

but this isn't fullout thor

thor doesn't have his weather powers...at the same time gorgon and OR are stripped of their powers as well (lest anyone accuses me of only handicapping thor)

also, they're fighting in an enclosed area...which is a disadvantage to thor as it means gorgon and OR can close the distance relatively quickly

while I believe the team wins slightly more under the scenario given, Im open to hearing the other side arguing that thor wins

but it seems the other side is not at all open to any suggestion the team might beat thor

Again, bringing up an old debate where I was using a more limited pallet of information for my opinion.

I said she had feats "I was not aware of" so way to "pay attention".

In any case you're doing nothing more than bringing up another argument in another thread... but it does shed light on a good point...

At the time people were using poor examples of proving Wonder Woman's speed as being so vastly superior to someone like Gorgon. What was being brought up was nothing of real importance to the discussion with the possible exception of one or two feats.
People should have been bringing in more examples and better examples to prove Wonder Woman's superiority at the time the discussion was being made... People didn't.

Here's the differences between that thread and this one... Wonder Woman had the proper feats to legitimate some of the arguments being made for her that weren't being discussed. Thor doesn't.
Wonder Woman has superspeed listed as one of her abilities. Thor doesn't.
And, while we had to simply do guess work concerning a hypothetical matchup between her and Gorgon in h2h, we've already seen Wolverine's faster than Thor on panel.

I appreciate your attempts tonight to do... well whatever it is you think you're doing... but whatever that IS... you aren't doing yourself any favors in this thread.

@ Starscream, I agree it COULD be a fight that goes either way.

Originally posted by jinzin
Again, bringing up an old debate where I was using a more limited pallet of information for my opinion.

I said she had feats "I was not aware of" so way to "pay attention". .

😂

WTH, man. Don't backtrack from the same exact argumentation you used before. Show some backbone, some fortitude. Yeesh. Let's not turn this into "I only realized Wolverine's bones heated up after certain events (even the those events already happened)" level of backtracking.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Haha. How can you even pretend that you weren't aware of her feats? People were [b]posting scanned feats in that very thread, like her taking on Zoom and Flash and Amazo and stuff and you kept dismissing them by appealing to Deathstroke, Batman, etc. What better speed feats does she have than those?

😂

WTH, man. Don't backtrack from the same exact argumentation you used before. Show some backbone, some fortitude. Yeesh. Let's not turn this into "I only realized Wolverine's bones heated up after certain events (even the those events already happened)" level of backtracking. [/B]

Sorry but people had better feats to bring up with her and guys like Flash in another thread. I'm not going to go searching in detail as to what specifically began to change my mind, but it happened. I can see how you wouldn't know a thing about that though, what with you being right all the time. 🙄

In any case, whatever issues you have with me from years ago, in other debates, where you ignore half of what I say for your stupid criticisms is irrelevant here.

HERE: Thor was slower than Wolverine in h2h combat on panel.

Man, here I thought your prevarications and unwillingness to even concede something as simple as "Thor two-shotted Wolverine" ended up cornering you into wholly adopting the absurd whereby now... you drag Thor down to Wolverine's level by appealing to Cap and Spidey and "street levels deal with lasers all the time" garbage. I thought that was momentous.

I realize now... it's the same tired arguments you've used before to drag characters down to a level you're more comfortable with. Almost to a "t". Nice attempt trying to pretend that some "new, undisclosed, revelatory feats" have made you change your mind now. Wonder Woman's best speed feats in her career were posted in that thread across dozens of pages. Somehow... Batman and Cap and Spidey and "street levels deal with lasers all the time" garbage was your canned response to each and every one. Nothing's changed between that thread and now.

Although... I like the backhanded weak allusion that there was something else that was crucial that made you change your mind. I'd propose it was the sheer embarassment caused by that thread, but what do I know?

And I suppose nothing's changed with your style of argumentation. Since you could simply substitute "Thor and Wolverine" for "Wonder Woman and Batman." It's the same arbitrary dismissal to drag characters down to a level you're more comfortable with. And here I thought we had something special cooking in this thread.

Meh. I am disappoint.

odg, don't bring wonderwoman and batman into this. its irrelevant.

not to mention wonder woman is no analogue to thor for speed (hint: she's far faster than thor...considering one of her top rogues main attribute is speed: cheetah)

Originally posted by Starscream M
odg, don't bring wonderwoman and batman into this. its irrelevant.

Hey... at least that should score points for consistency, amirite? Although, I can't award them now with the weak weak weak retreat being shown now: "Something changed my mind. Just not Wonder Woman's best speed feats in her career explained over dozens of pages that still remain her best." Rrrrrrright.

@ ODG I'm sorry to say you're wrong. I've changed my mind on the outcome of the fight due to a number of reasons and examples that were emphasized or brought up in another thread that never made it into the Gorgon thread when that fight was being discussed. I've changed my mind, I'm allowed, it happens. Apparently not for you, but most of us...

IN ANY CASE:
Wonder Woman never flat out admitted Batman's speed as being her primary issue when dealing with him. Thor on Wolverine however...

Honestly enough with your red herrings. They're not adding anything to this thread OR helping your argument.

Your precious "ON PANEL" feats have Thor regarding Wolverine's speed in a fight where it was superior. That's as far as this discussion needs to go given your supposed rhetoric.

@ODG

do you not agree that Wonder Woman is a legit speed character whereas Thor is not?

^ Do you not agree that Wonder Woman's greatest speed feats weren't enough to stop jinzin from appealing to Batman and dragging her down to Batman's level? And I'm supposed to take the same exact arbitrary dismissal seriously here and now? Please.

Originally posted by jinzin
I've changed my mind on the outcome of the fight due to a number of reasons and examples that were emphasized or brought up in another thread

I totally believe you, like, for realz.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Do you not agree that Wonder Woman's greatest speed feats weren't enough to stop jinzin from appealing to Batman and dragging her down to Batman's level? And I'm supposed to take the same exact arbitrary dismissal seriously here and now? Please. Right. Somehow... dozens of Wonder Woman's greatest speed feats (which remain her greatest ones) didn't do the job. Suuuuuuuurreee.

I totally believe you, like, for realz.

^ In the meantime, you can believe this:
Thor's still got better and more speed feats than Wolverine on-panel.

And I don't exactly have to rely on a single fight where Thor is holding back and offers purple prose comments that are immediately dispelled within that exact fight.

Seriously, your repetitious argument here isn't anymore different than constantly harping on about Batman taking on Wonder Woman while trying to ignore her greatest speed feats or the sheer number of them. At some point, you dropped the whole "appeal to street levelers to drag down a character to their level" when it came to her. Maybe at some point, you'll discover some revelation when it comes to Thor vs Wolverine.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Do you not agree that Wonder Woman's greatest speed feats weren't enough to stop jinzin from appealing to Batman and dragging her down to Batman's level? .

you're committing a fallacy of because someone may have been wrong in another instance, they're wrong in every other instance as well.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ In the meantime, you can believe this:
Thor's still got better and more speed feats than Wolverine on-panel.

And I don't exactly have to rely on a single fight where Thor is holding back and offers purple prose comments that are immediately dispelled within that exact fight.

Seriously, your repetitious argument here isn't anymore different than constantly harping on about Batman taking on Wonder Woman while trying to ignore her greatest speed feats or the sheer number of them.

Ok let's be honest. I don't think anyone disputes here that if Thor fights smart he is gonna win this.

Shockwaves, Hurricane Force Winds, he could simply spin his hammer around and deflect every single one of their attacks cause none of them are moving faster then bullets. Thor fighting smart means these shouldn't lay a hand on him because they would never get the chance to come close to him. That's just fact, none of these guy's can take planetary level strength being used wisely head on and survive.

As for the rest of this. Thor on average is yes not shown to be a speedster in reflexes. Yes it seems weird to think of Thor as a speedster, but at least most of the time on a consistent basis when Thor has needed speed he has been able to use it or defeat people with it.

Let's face his high end feats do trump street levels. No street level or Wolverine level character is going to dig a ditch as fast Thor did when needed to stop the lava. No street level is going to be able to be directly behind a running human and then instantly appear in front of them as Thor did with a fleeing Loki. And for reference I'm not talking about out running a human I'm talking about being behind running after Loki to instantly appearing in front of Loki before he could turn his head around. That's either super speed or straight teleportation. I say its speed but whatever.

No Wolverine level character should catch Hermes as Thor did straight grabbing him.

So what I'm saying is yes on average Thor isn't going to appear much faster than these guys but when push comes to shove he can and has done so in the past.

I personally would attribute it to the fact that Thor generally downplays to his opponents level. He shows a lot of restrain with his abilities until he absolutely has to.

Also a new thought I did have and one with a bit of evidence is that Thor may not have his enhanced reflexes set to auto do to him constantly playing down to his opponents abilities. Nothing confirmed but just a thought.

We've recently seen that Thor can see the fabric of time and space itself but he has to focus his godly senses to do so. I'm guessing he may have to focus his godly senses to increase combat speed as well. Along the lines of Superman. Like I said not confirmed but something I thought could interesting to discuss.

the thing is thor doesn't really have any true speed feats (whereas Wonder Woman or superman does)

thor's feats can be interpretated to show speed...but none of them are explicitly speed feats

Gorgon and OR's tenticals move faster than bullets actually.

Originally posted by jinzin
Gorgon and OR's tenticals move faster than bullets actually.

As Thor has been shown on panel to be able to spin the Hammer faster than light.

And Starscream the ditch digging feat is a speed feat. He dug a ditch at super speeds. That one is not debatable.