The Gorgon and Omega Red vs Thor in Melee Fight

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't feel like doing it, you will find something wrong with the feat.

I think theres a difference between street lvl speed and genuine superhuman speed.

Cap doesn't negotiate super speedsters, doesn't matter if it makes him a speedster its if he can.

So based on one example you've decided that Thor won't cope, that sound reasonable to you?

Feats against superspeedsters but you managed to find something wrong with every single example. Whats the probability of that, either its a coincedence or..

There's a difference between street level speed and genuine superhuman speed? What? The hell does that mean?
Street levels CONSTANTLY resort to superhuman speed in fights, feats and the like. Some of these guys have to rely on it because they don't have other powers to fall back on if they get tagged.

Thor has superhuman speed... great.. so does Cap. Saying he has superhuman speed isn't the same as claiming him to have superspeed.... at least not by comics typically speaking.

Cap's dealt with Quicksilver before, and the only reason Quicksilver has managed to beat Cap was because of things like wind walls.

Meh, Cap's also dodged, and blocked Mjolnir... does that make him as fast as the hammer?

That's just it, just because Thor can react to a couple of speedsters doesn't put him on another level, it's something every comic character does. Batman's tripped Flash.

It's an example that adheres to logic and reason. OR has flexible, indestructable coils. If he wraps Thor's arms up and pulls him off his feet, he won't have leverage and be unable to apply the uses of his strength. It doesn't so much have to do with a comic book example as it does physiology and physics, I'm just referencing the example because it displays what I'm talking about.

There's a difference between being able to react to a speedster and being able to react to a speedster as they're describing you as being "too fast".

One can be written off like Cap dodging Mjolnir- He does it with skill, timing, experience, it's not going top speed etc etc..
The other one... well it's attributed to speed on panel... so that's probably the cause.

Originally posted by Ize19
So Ares is capable of tanking a Mjolnir that travels billions of times the speed of light (which is what one return speed of the hammer is clocked at) to the head, without even falling unconscious?

It doesn't have to be going at billions the speed of light, it was clearly going fast.

Originally posted by Ize19
Thor didn't throw it that far,

This is an excuse, the same way you're arguing that it wasn't going fast because Atlas wasn't KOed. It's irrelevant because Magog hasn't been Koed by the hammer.

So when Thor threw his hammer into the ground to stop Quicksilver it wasn't going fast?

Now you're arguing that the hammer amps his speed but when I show you Thor dodging his own hammer you are now trying to downplay it's speed.

Originally posted by Ize19
it clearly wasn't going full speed.

I have already explained this point, if you weren't so busy trying to win the debate I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

It doesn't matter, even if its not at full speed its still pretty fast. Your the one whos arguing that it can go faster than light then anything below that including lightspeed is fair game.

Originally posted by Ize19

What are you talking about? Yeah, he sensed the beam, due to it's pressure wave, an instant before the beam arrived. And no, Thor didn't "sense" Mjolnir, he saw it, but he still registered it before it arrived, just like Wolverine.

Theres a difference. Wolverine had a warning because of enhanced senses, Thor dodged the hammer by pure reflexes.

Originally posted by jinzin
There's a difference between street level speed and genuine superhuman speed? What? The hell does that mean?
Street levels CONSTANTLY resort to superhuman speed in fights, feats and the like. Some of these guys have to rely on it because they don't have other powers to fall back on if they get tagged.

Its semantics you can call Cap superhuman but hes clearly not as fast as somebody who is 100% superhuman eg Sabretooth for example.

Originally posted by jinzin
Cap's dealt with Quicksilver before, and the only reason Quicksilver has managed to beat Cap was because of things like wind walls.

That Quicksilver isn't as impressive as the current one. QS now has Flash level feats.

Originally posted by jinzin

Meh, Cap's also dodged, and blocked Mjolnir... does that make him as fast as the hammer?

It doesn't matter if hes as fast as his hammer its still very impressive. Cap didn't dodge Mjolinor when it was inches from his face and wasn't expecting it to keep travelling.

Originally posted by jinzin

That's just it, just because Thor can react to a couple of speedsters doesn't put him on another level, it's something every comic character does. Batman's tripped Flash.

It wasn't a couple of speedsters though, from what I can remember there were at least several. You found something wrong with every example.

Was Flash trying to kill him?

Originally posted by jinzin

It's an example that adheres to logic and reason. OR has flexible, indestructable coils. If he wraps Thor's arms up and pulls him off his feet, he won't have leverage and be unable to apply the uses of his strength. It doesn't so much have to do with a comic book example as it does physiology and physics,

My God, so you don't think that Thors strength might stop that from happening?

Originally posted by jinzin

I'm just referencing the example because it displays what I'm talking about.

That example doesn't conclusively prove your point, especially when Hulk is so strong that really shouldn't happen.

Originally posted by jinzin

There's a difference between being able to react to a speedster and being able to react to a speedster as they're describing you as being "too fast".

Thats irrelevant, if hes fast enough to react so it helps him win thats all that matters.

Originally posted by jinzin

One can be written off like Cap dodging Mjolnir- He does it with skill, timing, experience, it's not going top speed etc etc..
The other one... well it's attributed to speed on panel... so that's probably the cause.

Obvoulsy skill is involved. I see so every single example of him reacting to superspeedsters involved the speedsters moving slowly?

Originally posted by Deadline
Its semantics you can call Cap superhuman but hes clearly not as fast as somebody who is 100% superhuman eg Sabretooth for example.

That Quicksilver isn't as impressive as the current one. QS now has Flash level feats.

It doesn't matter if hes as fast as his hammer its still very impressive. Cap didn't dodge Mjolinor when it was inches from his face and wasn't expecting it to keep travelling.

It wasn't a couple of speedsters though, from what I can remember there were at least several. You found something wrong with every example.

Was Flash trying to kill him?

My God, so you don't think that Thors strength might stop that from happening?

That example doesn't conclusively prove your point, especially when Hulk is so strong that really shouldn't happen.

Thats irrelevant, if hes fast enough to react so it helps him win thats all that matters.

Obvoulsy skill is involved.

It's semantics, exactly.
the only what makes Sabretooth faster than cap isn't his superhumanhood, it's his listed attributes and his feats which denote superiority by comparison. There are literally a hundred guys out there more superhuman than Cap in strength, durability, etc. But Cap's still faster and more agile. Sabretooth isn't faster than Cap because he's superhuman. He's superhuman because he's faster than Cap.

You're missing the point of the examples. They demonstrate that being able to negotiate something that's superfast doesn't automatically but you in a higher speed bracket than another character.

Lets continue to use your example. You've acknowledged Sabretooth is faster than Cap. But we have examples of Cap dodging Mjolnir or dealing with Quicksilver in speed... Is Sabretooth's speed inconsequential because of those feats? Is Cap faster than Sabretooth because of those feats?

What part of strength and leverage having a harmoneous connection don't you get. Thor is strong, Thor has strength, if he has no footing and is being tangled by cords which can extend, retract, bend, and are indesctructible then his strength won't matter.
It's like trying to fight against a pool of water.

Originally posted by Deadline
I see so every single example of him reacting to superspeedsters involved the speedsters moving slowly?

Point is, that dealing with speedsters MAY be an impressive feat, but it isn't one exclusively attributed to a character's speed unless otherwise noted.

Originally posted by jinzin
It's semantics, exactly.
the only what makes Sabretooth faster than cap isn't his superhumanhood, it's his listed attributes and his feats which denote superiority by comparison. There are literally a hundred guys out there more superhuman than Cap in strength, durability, etc. But Cap's still faster and more agile. Sabretooth isn't faster than Cap because he's superhuman. He's superhuman because he's faster than Cap.

Look the point I was making was that Thors feats were superior.

Originally posted by jinzin

You're missing the point of the examples. They demonstrate that being able to negotiate something that's superfast doesn't automatically but you in a higher speed bracket than another character.

Lets continue to use your example. You've acknowledged Sabretooth is faster than Cap. But we have examples of Cap dodging Mjolnir or dealing with Quicksilver in speed... Is Sabretooth's speed inconsequential because of those feats? Is Cap faster than Sabretooth because of those feats?

Please re-read what I said.

That Quicksilver isn't as impressive as the current one. QS now has Flash level feats.

It doesn't matter if hes as fast as his hammer its still very impressive. Cap didn't dodge Mjolinor when it was inches from his face and wasn't expecting it to keep travelling.

Originally posted by jinzin

What part of strength and leverage having a harmoneous connection don't you get. Thor is strong, Thor has strength, if he has no footing and is being tangled by cords which can extend, retract, bend, and are indesctructible then his strength won't matter.
It's like trying to fight against a pool of water.

Don't start. Thors feet are on the ground, for him to lose his footing he has to pull him off his feet. This will be diffcult because Thor is top tier class 100.

You're just assuming hes going to lose his footing.

Originally posted by jinzin

I didn't even remotely say that, so reading comprehension ftw? 😕

Don't start. The point I was making that you mentioned they weren't travelling at top speed, my point is they were still travelling fast.

Originally posted by jinzin

Point is, that dealing with speedsters MAY be an impressive feat, but it isn't one exclusively attributed to a character's speed unless otherwise noted.

Look man the speed feats I mentioned were more impressive than the street level feats anyway. Don't think I want to get into a debate about wether its superhuman or not.

By the way jinzin a depowered Wolverine has been able to pull OR off his feet. Shouldn't really have to give that example.

thor can punch a whole through either. I'm unconvinced gorgon could decapitate him in a single blow or the like, so thor wins ore often than not

Originally posted by optic_blast!!!
your so called debated may fool others but not me, all your arguments are based on words that you search in the online dictionary and prove or say not a damn shit all you do is type preety words praying to god(thor) that no one will understand and will think you are smart but you are dumb , your argument proves nothing and doesnt say much to add

Originally posted by optic_blast!!!
i asked you to provide feats which you didnt so why are you still here? trash talking wont make you look smarter and definitely wont give you a win in debates, gorgons feat puts him above thor in both reflex and combat speed like it or not i dont give a shit you get your ass off your seat and find me some proof to your statements otherwise you are nothing to take seriously

Originally posted by optic_blast!!!
i mentioned only this gorgon feat because its the only one that needs to be mentioned which thor cant top, gorgon has very few appearences and in all of them he kept true to the way we describe him so yes its safe to say its a very legit feat , now thor over all those years doesnt have any clear feats that actually prove anything aside of 1-2 feats from the 70s or what ever Lol thor is just a loser those days you know it and hate yourself for that 😆

Originally posted by optic_blast!!!
actually i am not mad we are here in computer class really laugh at all this Lol people here are laughing saying wtf you got nothing better to do than debate online over comics 😆

Originally posted by optic_blast!!!
😆

those feats are pathetic the first one is thor avoiding getting shot? Lol bwahahahaha name me someone in marvel who doesnt avoid gun shots, second one is thor avoiding hits from mister hyde? 😆 😆 OMG!!!! LOLLLLLLLLLLL 😆

i just want to say i am so sorry for ever questioning thors speed being able to avoid mister hyde who gets wrecked by daredevil on daily basis in speed is just top notch 😆 😆 you just owned yourself

If we want to show scans of Thor dealing with speedsters like Hermes, Quicksilver, Juvan and Zefra, we would (and already have). Nice job socking, rampantly posting smilies, and missing the point at the same time trolling while in school. Quadfecta of phail right here.

BTW, I absolutely love how the last 5+ pages completely and utterly adhere to this pattern:

Originally posted by Silent Master
I get it....

Step 1 = Ask for scans
Step 2 = Makes excuses for why they don't count
Step 3 = Claim it's PIS
Step 4 = Claim it's the hammer
Step 5 = Strawman
Step 6 = Ignore what the scans show
Step 7 = Claim scans haven't been posted
Step 8 = Ask for scans

Wolverine "fans" are rather predictable.

Originally posted by Ize19
Well, to be honest, I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this one. This is a belief you've held for years, and my interpretation, which may fit the facts better, but which had never even occurred to you before (by your own admission) will simply have too uphill of a battle to fight. The fact is, in some scans, Thor, the narration, or others credit his hammer. In others Thor or the narration credit him.

I just don't see it. It's never been touched upon except perhaps by that one scan. If I need to, I can go ask everyone from Simonson to Jurgens to Gillen to Busiek for their interpretation and I highly doubt any one of them will agree with your stance (Not that in itself solves the case).

I'll go into further detail below on the matter.

Originally posted by Ize19
I see all of the scans you post, and the scans posted in the respect thread, and almost all of them attribute these abilities to his mystical hammer, even some among the scans you've just posted.

The major problem I have with that -besides Thor always giving Mjolnir credit until someone challenges him- in all of the scans I've seen posted thus far, the writer is almost always focusing on the actual spinning but the result of the spinning.

Do you understand? For Thor to access some of Mjolnir's abilities he has to spin Mjolnir at incredible speeds.

Here for example Thor is spinning Mjolnir at trans light speeds and the dialogue credits Mjolnir but not for the actual spinning but for the vortex created:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/TravelThroughTime1.jpg

It's the case in almost all the scans I posted. It's the reason why I think Mjolnir being focused on doesn't change anything.

When Thor's name is actually mentioned, it's when Thor or the dialogue gives a focus to the actual whirling which rarely happens, and when it does, is used interchangeably. If need be I can find more scenes where it focuses on Thor.

Originally posted by Ize19
Another fact is, Thor's hammer is capable of self propulsion. It has dragged him through the air before, and sped up while it was doing so.

That's a whole different process, the mechanics of which haven't been fully explained. Whenever they are, the writers credit it to Thor hurtling the hammer with his own physical strength, and then the Thunder God simply holding on. Apparently the entire sequence after, even when Thor changes direction, is Thor's force propelling Mjolnir. Not sure how that makes much sense but I'm hoping it's not that asinine currently.

So, that doesn't in itself support your argument. Not when we have scenes of Thor actually bending his arm in a swing even near the end of the process of whatever his performing. I find it hardly doubtful that Thor's arm is simply along for the ride and he simply does all the motions for fun.

Originally posted by Ize19
I can see how you can credit Thor spinning it at those speeds, though as Carver pointed out, just because his hammer attained those speeds while spinning, doesn't mean Thor was moving his arm that fast, but will you acknowledge that it is at least possible that Thor spins Mjolnir to begin, then Mjolnir becomes the motive power of the vortex, and carries his arm/body along with it? Is that a possibility?

I'm not going to argue that Thor can punch at light speed or anything simply because he can spin his hammer at high end speeds but Thor has to have some impressive degree of superhuman speed to be able to physically spin his entire body or his arms at those levels.

Let's say for arguments sake, it is a possibility. I think it's far more likely that it's Thor willing the hammer with his own will to move at those speeds than Mjolnir have an independent power to solely spin at high levels or it amping Thor's speed. That just....doesn't make much sense in my book.

I just don't understand why someone would believe Mjolnir needs a separate ability because Thor says something like whirl my hammer whirl. There's a far more logical and probable explanation.

Following your line of reasoning, I might as well argue that this is evidence that Thor and not Mjolnir can create vortexes that are invisible and intangible:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/InvisibleIntangibleAbility.jpg

Thor did say: "I shall create a stasis vortex about him."

Or using this as evidence that it is Thor that creates the whirlwind and not the hammer:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/Mjolnir156.jpg

"Whirling his mystic mallet at a dazzling speed, the uncertain thunder god creates a sudden whirlwind."

I can do it with this scan too:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/CreatesVortexSoldiers1.jpg

"And naught that lives may defy the odinson's power."

Writers using the hammer and Thor himself interchangeably is simply not in itself evidence of what you want it to be.

Steps 1-8 FTW

The fail is strong in this thread. Thor still wins, and really, it isn't that hard either.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Wolverine "fans" are rather predictable.

I'm saying that they'd claim to be fans. Personally, I'd label them as fanboys.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm saying that they'd claim to be fans. Personally, I'd label them as fanboys.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Where does one cross the line?

When they start bringing him up in threads that don't involve him and then spend 60 pages basically arguing that only feats that help the Wolverine side count.

Lol. They feel Wolverine is important here, it means a lot.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look the point I was making was that Thors feats were superior.

Originally posted by Deadline
Please re-read what I said.

That Quicksilver isn't as impressive as the current one. QS now has Flash level feats.

It doesn't matter if hes as fast as his hammer its still very impressive. Cap didn't dodge Mjolinor when it was inches from his face and wasn't expecting it to keep travelling.

In anycase, no he was just doing it in an enclosed space as it was ricocheting from multiple angles.

Originally posted by Deadline
Don't start. Thors feet are on the ground, for him to lose his footing he has to pull him off his feet. This will be diffcult because Thor is top tier class 100.

You're just assuming hes going to lose his footing.

Don't start with logic, reason or physics? Well.. okay I guess you do like avoiding that stuff. I'll give you that.

Pulling Thor off his feet using coils that can extend into the air or push Thor off the ground would not be difficult at all. Thor's class 100 strength doesn't somehow give him better footing. 🤨
His strength only comes into play if he's grabbing something to anchor him down with or in a game of tug of war before he's off his feet.

And using the Omega Red example just proves what I'm saying, Logan was helpless until he used the wall as a base to chuck OR. Omega Red having "thing level" strength didn't give him better footing.

Originally posted by Deadline
Don't start. The point I was making that you mentioned they weren't travelling at top speed, my point is they were still travelling fast.

Yes, they are travelling fast, how fast is an unknown factor. And if you want to contend that they are impressive to a certain degree, to a "superior" degree, then you need SOMETHING to beging to quantify that.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look man the speed feats I mentioned were more impressive than the street level feats anyway. Don't think I want to get into a debate about wether its superhuman or not.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Lol. They feel Wolverine is important here, it means a lot.