Yea...the omniblast is natural....he has to concentrate in order to focus the blasts.
Originally posted by leonidas
seriously? there are about a hundred reasons why we never use RL stuff to make these kinds of arguments. and what if its an energy blast? comic writers tend to ignore RL rules so in general should we.
Including the writers that had Batgirl do her "bullet-dance"?
Originally posted by leonidas
seriously? there are about a hundred reasons why we never use RL stuff to make these kinds of arguments. and what if its an energy blast? comic writers tend to ignore RL rules so in general should we.
I understand that. Thing is, in comics, you need to have suspension of disbelief in order to accept certain feats as possible. This means ignoring certain impossibilities that can occur with that feat because it was demonstrated in comics as possible.
But, I believe the case here is different. The fact is, there are no unquantifiables with shooting a bullet in a straight line, no outside possible plot devices or impossibilities or prior bullet feats that are proven to defy physics or anything that can throw doubt that the bullet is not anything more than what it is.
When characters drive a ford explorer, we don't assume it can go to the speed of sound. When two characters fall, we assume that they fall downwards. If a sniper bullet travels half a kilometer, we then compute the time it takes due to the speed of the bullet.
We need to draw the line on what feats require "suspension of disbelief" and what feats are easily quantifiable due to them being groundd in RL physics. Otherwise, what's the point in having a rule-based debate at all? We might as well say that anything is possible as long as you wish it enough.
Originally posted by long pig
Is there any proof havock can just omniblast off the cuff with no prep to charge or situate himself? I know he's never done it in xfactor books. And doesn't he wear a suit that keeps his his energy contained. Like cyclops' visor. If he has to get naked to do it or be in street clothes, this fight is over before it starts.
And no he does not need to charge or situate/absorb more energy for an omni-blast.. Like DDude was saying, when activated his body naturally emits those energies that super heats the air around him and turns it into plasma, all he has to do is stop focusing those energies in one direction and just let go..
You must be missing a few X-factor books, his done Omni-directional blast a couple of times in that series with and without the suit; say with his suit on, when he was up against Random prior to his upgrade in the hands of the Dark Beast and without the suit, when Fatale trap him in a trade ship..
In regards to the match against current Havok, he take's it 6/10, 4/10 for Deathstroke one shot kill..
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I understand that. Thing is, in comics, you need to have suspension of disbelief in order to accept certain feats as possible. This means ignoring certain impossibilities that can occur with that feat because it was demonstrated in comics as possible.But, I believe the case here is different. The fact is, there are no unquantifiables with shooting a bullet in a straight line, no outside possible plot devices or impossibilities or prior bullet feats that are proven to defy physics or anything that can throw doubt that the bullet is not anything more than what it is.
When characters drive a ford explorer, we don't assume it can go to the speed of sound. When two characters fall, we assume that they fall downwards. If a sniper bullet travels half a kilometer, we then compute the time it takes due to the speed of the bullet.
We need to draw the line on what feats require "suspension of disbelief" and what feats are easily quantifiable due to them being groundd in RL physics. Otherwise, what's the point in having a rule-based debate at all? We might as well say that anything is possible as long as you wish it enough.
not at all, really. we have no way to know that a writer who writes a deathstroke battle knows exactly how fast a bullet might travel. if that's true, then he may have a bullet doing something a RL bullet couldn't. we also have no way to know that slade's staff--which is also a laser canon and a host of other 'impossible' things--can't somehow fire a bullet faster than a RL gun could. like your bullet, should we assume a laser beam also travels at lightspeed? does that mean batman has faster-than-light reflexes because he dodges them? or does your RL logic only end at bullets and not count lasers? you'll likely just say suspend disbelief regarding batman's ability to dodge a laser. and of course we do that. but picking and choosing where to suspend disbelief is too tricky in most cases imo.
Originally posted by Ambient
Yup! He flew with an energy field and towing two chars, he crash landed dough safely and this was the first he tried that maneuver.. His done the flying about 3x so far while battling.. Darn hard to post with the iPhone..
see, now THAT makes a case. i know he could ff. if he does, then flies, you're right--havok kills him.
Originally posted by leonidasYeah this actually could ring true. Starting with an Omniblast doesn't seem very plausable, but if he just erects a shield for the bullet and then flies and pelts.... I don't know how Deathstroke could come out of that.
see, now THAT makes a case. i know he could ff. if he does, then flies, you're right--havok kills him.
Originally posted by leonidas
not at all, really. we have no way to know that a writer who writes a deathstroke battle knows exactly how fast a bullet might travel. if that's true, then he may have a bullet doing something a RL bullet couldn't. we also have no way to know that slade's staff--which is also a laser canon and a host of other 'impossible' things--can't somehow fire a bullet faster than a RL gun could. like your bullet, should we assume a laser beam also travels at lightspeed? does that mean batman has faster-than-light reflexes because he dodges them? or does your RL logic only end at bullets and not count lasers? you'll likely just say suspend disbelief regarding batman's ability to dodge a laser. and of course we do that. but picking and choosing where to suspend disbelief is too tricky in most cases imo.
But the thing is, this ISN'T a written story. This is a VS forum battle debate between 2 characters. The "suspension of disbelief" argument goes both ways here. One side can say it travels fast and posts feats wherein bullets have tagged speedsters known to go FTL. The other side can say it travels slower in comics and post feats wherein bullets are being dodged/deflected by street levelers w/ no proven super speed.
With that kind of argumentation, the debate will have no end and have no conclusion. The solution here would be to tap into RL physics and RL information to get an irrefutable answer. The beauty of the "bullet speed" argument is that it's pretty straight forward. Bullets travel a certain speed. A bullet traveling a certain speed needs X time to cover Y distance. It's not as if there are a TON of unknown variables (and thus would mean that assumptions are made, w/c can be biased) that would make the computation undependable here.
I don't even know why this is in contention. Half the time, ppl debate basic RL physics or common sense logic to make a point and many of them made some pretty compelling arguments.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I don't even know why this is in contention. Half the time, ppl debate basic RL physics or common sense logic to make a point and many of them made some pretty compelling arguments.
it's a contention because different writers may very well depict bullets as travelling at different speeds. there are certain things in comics that ARE consistent with RL. bullet speed may in some cases be one of those things, but not always. we can't expect a writer to bother checking how fast different bullets go. since it isn't going to be consistent among writers or comics, we shouldn't be using RL estimates here. could they be close? sure, maybe. i doubt the writer who had flash clear that town of people knew he was actually having flash moving at several multiples of lightspeed either. 😬
Originally posted by leonidas
it's a contention because different writers may very well depict bullets as travelling at different speeds. there are certain things in comics that ARE consistent with RL. bullet speed may in some cases be one of those things, but not always. we can't expect a writer to bother checking how fast different bullets go. since it isn't going to be consistent among writers or comics, we shouldn't be using RL estimates here. could they be close? sure, maybe. i doubt the writer who had flash clear that town of people knew he was actually having flash moving at several multiples of lightspeed either. 😬
Again, this ISN'T a comic. This is a VS forum debate which should be grounded in as much irrefutable evidence as possible to make the whole debate move forward. Otherwise, we'd be stuck in an "I believe/IMO/I think" circular discussion.
Heck, we're not even talking about dodging bullets/lasers here (w/c in turn could have many mitigating circumstances/unquantifiables in such a feat). We're talking about how long it takes X to get to Y when X has a CLEAR speed limitation. I mean should we ignore that bullets NEED to take time to go from point A to B?
Going by your logic, should we just ignore ALL RL-based facts? Should things float off the ground? Should water be a solid at room temperature? Should a match fire burn at 100000000 degrees? Where do we draw the line? 😬
Were it a comic (and we had a scan in front of us that defies the laws of physics), then I agree, suspension of disbelief is pretty damn well required. But this isn't a comic book. This is a VS forum debate.
Ok, good call dropping the omniblast.argument, because it was flawed. Havock ffing then flying then shooting blasts is better. But STILL fatally flawed. One, Ds has used his staff to fly twice. Once just blasting it downward to gain altitude and blasting it again over and over to keep altitude, control projectory and to slow decent. Basically like jet propulsion. Another time friggin helicopter blades came out the end. He's used a backpack heli before but i don't know if it's normal equip. So, it'll come down to if his super 'nades can shatter his shield (if they can KO superboy and nearly KO Superman. they can break his shield) because we know ds can dodge havock's blasts. Starfire's blasts are describedly faster than sound and DS has literally moved around them like they were standing still. Something SF said kidflash can't do.
Originally posted by long pig
Ok, good call dropping the omniblast.argument, because it was flawed.
What exactly was the flaw? CIS? IMO, he's more likely to start off with an omniblast than Supereman has of starting off with a speedblitz (w/c ppl here have argued for strongly many times). It's a natural state of his power. Kinda like relaxing a muscle that you've been flexing a lot. In a no-holds-barred fight with no civilian/teammate casualties to worry about, he SHOULD have the mindset needed to just cut loose when needed.
With that said, I HAVE been arguing AGAINST the viability of the Omniblast via the CIS of it since page 2. And I was the first one (I think) to bring forward that force fields are MORE LIKELY to be used by Havoc here to stop the quick-draw from working.
Originally posted by long pig
Havock ffing then flying then shooting blasts is better. But STILL fatally flawed. One, Ds has used his staff to fly twice. Once just blasting it downward to gain altitude and blasting it again over and over to keep altitude, control projectory and to slow decent. Basically like jet propulsion. Another time friggin helicopter blades came out the end. He's used a backpack heli before but i don't know if it's normal equip. So, it'll come down to if his super 'nades can shatter his shield (if they can KO superboy and nearly KO Superman. they can break his shield) because we know ds can dodge havock's blasts.
Several pretty big flaws in this argument:
-Havoc is pretty damn accurate with those energy blasts plus he can fire them in a conic-form to shoot down any 'nades.
-Havoc can pretty much omniblast at any time during this Slade is closing the distance making the 'nades blow up in Slade's face (especially if his first few blasts missed cuz Slade dodged em).
-How fast does the helicopter-staff or even the staff-blast propulsion take Slade? Not fast enough to close the distance before Havoc shoots him down (Slade should be a LOT LESS maneuverable once he's airborne, did Slade make split-second mid-air corrections while he was airborne with the staff?)
-Havoc should be able to fly faster than the 'nades using heli-staff/staff blast. What's to stop him from flying away from Slade as Slade closes in on him?
TBH, with full capacity on and PIS off, I doubt Slade would ever be able to get in close enough to use the 'nades before Havoc can react to him closing in and throwing them.
Originally posted by long pig
Starfire's blasts are describedly faster than sound and DS has literally moved around them like they were standing still. Something SF said kidflash can't do.
Havoc's blast travels a helluva lot faster than sound, too.
I've seen the DS-dodging-SF blast feats, certainly didn't seem like the blasts "were standing still" to me. Which instances are you pertaining to?
And please don't sell Havoc short. IMO, his blasts have been shown to pack more power than SF's on average showings. And the DS vs SF showings seems like low end showings for SF to me.