Originally posted by CortSether
Except he's already stated that he has never faced such power when confronting Shuma-Gorath, so if you want to go that route than Shuma still wins.
Except I can post a scan of him saying the exact same thing about Satannish and this took place after he confronted Shuma Gorath multiple times.
Originally posted by zopzop
Except I can post a scan of him saying the exact same thing about Satannish and this took place after he confronted Shuma Gorath multiple times.
Point is, it's still taken Strange a hell of a lot more effort and plot device to confront Shuma, whereas Dormammu has only ever done anything worthwhile with plot device in his favor. Certainly he's never established that his personal powers are anywhere close to Shuma's.
Dormammu is no stronger than Odin. No point in arguing that he can take on Shuma.
Originally posted by carver9
Dormammu wins.
Posts like that are one of the reasons the comic versus forum on KMC has such a bad reputation online.
Originally posted by CortSether
Point is, it's still taken Strange a hell of a lot more effort and plot device to confront Shuma, whereas Dormammu has only ever done anything worthwhile with plot device in his favor. Certainly he's never established that his personal powers are anywhere close to Shuma's.Dormammu is no stronger than Odin. No point in arguing that he can take on Shuma.
And what exactly is Gorath's power level? He's never confronted another God or Cosmic like Dormammu has. Dormammu has his metaphysical showdown with Odin in Asgard (that appeared to untrained eyes like a game of chess), imprisoning Gaea, his first fight with Eternity, his war vs the other Hell Lords (Mephisto, Daimon Hellstrom, Satannish was revealed to be his creation and Hela and Pluto withdrew relying on their Pantheons to protect them), and more I'm probably missing.
Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.
Originally posted by zopzop
And what exactly is Gorath's power level? He's never confronted another God or Cosmic like Dormammu has. Dormammu has his metaphysical showdown with Odin in Asgard (that appeared to untrained eyes like a game of chess), imprisoning Gaea, his first fight with Eternity, his war vs the other Hell Lords (Mephisto, Daimon Hellstrom, Satannish was revealed to be his creation and Hela and Pluto withdrew relying on their Pantheons to protect them), and more I'm probably missing.Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.
@CortSether: zopzop's right man. Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have the feats to be even in the same league as Dormammu. Dormammu is just simply much more accomplished. Dormammu claimed to be at least on Odin's(or Zeus's) level during the period he stole Doctor Strange's body, and that was in the 70's. Since then he's become much more powerful and looking at his accomplishments since then one would be crazy to say that he's still on Odin's level. Especially since he beat Odin in Asgard and Loki has heard Odin speak about Dormammu with great respect.
Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange. Unless you consider having Doctor Strange kill the Ancient One a win... He's also been beaten by Conan and Crom, and of course Sise-Neg. Dormammu has at least beaten Doctor Strange as many times as he him and even killed him when he became the new Ancient One. And that was when Doctor Strange had, Phoenix, Krugarr, Firelord, Ghost Rider, and the rest of the Guardians of the Galaxy on his side. The GOTG even said that Dormammu is "the deadliest foe we'll ever face". When Dormammu stole Strange's body one of the things he was going to do was take down the Celestials but before he could do that he was betrayed by Clea and attacked by Topaz from behind along with Doctor Strange.
Shuma-Gorath no doubt has amazing power. I mean he has beings like Nightmare as his servants. But Dormammu has beings like Satannish. The most amazing thing Shuma-Gorath has done is probably stalemating the Vishanti. Which is no easy feat but pales in comparison to Dormammu's. Dormammu's feats are much greater than Shuma's and Shuma-Goraths low showings are definitely lower than Dormammu's.
Bottom line is that Dormammu is simply a greater threat being much more clever and overall more powerful. Unless Shuma-Gorath is within the Chaos Dimension Dormammu is more powerful.
Originally posted by cpd12589
@CortSether: zopzop's right man. Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have the feats to be even in the same league as Dormammu.
Forget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.
Shuma-Gorath no doubt has amazing power. I mean he has beings like Nightmare as his servants. ..... The most amazing thing Shuma-Gorath has done is probably stalemating the Vishanti.
I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power. Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).
And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!
Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something! 😆
Originally posted by zopzopkk... so because strange pulled a dark magic that would pretty much guarantee an instawin against anyone he used it against its a bad showing.... right so anyone else would fair better when Strange takes their powers as his own + his own abilities as sorcerer supreme... right because we all know that gods/demons can overcome something that is their power + the power held by someone holding a cosmic position... right.Forget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.
I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power. Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).
And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something! 😆 [/B]
Originally posted by zopzopForget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.
I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power. Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).
And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something! 😆 [/B]
When the Vishanti said "Long ago we fought the UNSPEAKABLE wickness of Shuma-Gorath" most people take that as the battle ended in a stalemate since neither side is dead. But your really right since details of the battle are undisclosed. I mean the Vishanti could've temporarily destroyed Gorath like Strange did or it could've been the other way around. But the way I take that quote is the Vishanti fought Shuma-Gorath in his dimension and the battle ended in stalemate since the Vishanti speak about him with much respect and dread. I say they fought in the Chaos Dimension because outside of it the Vishanti really should've taken him down pretty quick IMO.
Also yeah that battle with Strange and Gorath in the Chaos Dimension was around the same time Strange gave his artifacts to Agamotto for safe keeping. He was originally going to destroy them but gave them to Agamotto to hold instead.
Even though Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have many fights I still think he's a vastly powerful entity. Just not overall more powerful than Dormammu. Put it this way, Dormammu has to be feared by many more than Shuma-Gorath because of his lack of fights. When Gorath invades a dimension he must sleep for a LONG time too so even though he's very old that might have a lot to do with his lack of conflicts. Shuma-Gorath commands Nightmare, Sligguth, Ebora, N'Gabthoth, Dagoth, Kathulos, and Living Buddha. But none of those demons are as powerful as Satannish which Dormammu commands along with all the residents of the Dark Dimension, the Mindless Ones, and many more.
kk... so because strange pulled a dark magic that would pretty much guarantee an instawin against anyone he used it against its a bad showing.... right so anyone else would fair better when Strange takes their powers as his own + his own abilities as sorcerer supreme... right because we all know that gods/demons can overcome something that is their power + the power held by someone holding a cosmic position... right.
Doctor Strange even told Shuma-Gorath he's gotten so much weaker it's embarrassing... So how is it not a bad showing? When a mortal insults a dimensional ruler and then hands him his ass in his own dimension where he's supposed to be near omnipotent. Sounds like a bad showing to me. Also Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange, ever.
Originally posted by Uriel005
kk... so because strange pulled a dark magic that would pretty much guarantee an instawin against anyone he used it against its a bad showing.... right so anyone else would fair better when Strange takes their powers as his own + his own abilities as sorcerer supreme... right because we all know that gods/demons can overcome something that is their power + the power held by someone holding a cosmic position... right.
What are you talking about? During the arc when Strange went on to kill Gorath, he was at his lowest point power wise because he DESTROYED all his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands! That's why he had to resort to black magic! He didn't have the Eye (not because he destroyed it but because he felt unworthy of it and didn't use it, you'll notice it's not on him), he didn't have any of his other artifacts though because they were gone! That's what makes that win over Gorath so very humiliating (for Gorath). In fact, the loss of his artifacts is what CAUSED all those demons to be set loose, since it weakened the spells banishing them from 616 reality.
Originally posted by cpd12589And what exactly is Gorath's power level? He's never confronted another God or Cosmic like Dormammu has. Dormammu has his metaphysical showdown with Odin in Asgard (that appeared to untrained eyes like a game of chess), imprisoning Gaea, his first fight with Eternity, his war vs the other Hell Lords (Mephisto, Daimon Hellstrom, Satannish was revealed to be his creation and Hela and Pluto withdrew relying on their Pantheons to protect them), and more I'm probably missing.
Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.
You make it out like any of what you listed makes Dormammu > Shuma when it actually doesn't. Shuma was already stated to be far stronger than the hell lords by Kaluu, a peer of the Ancient One and a master of black magic, one who would know how strong hell lords are.
And nothing involving Dormammu and Eternity is impressive, considering he's only managed anything with a cosmic axis plot device, and when he had confronted Eternity before he got stomped like a beotch in a panel and a half.
Originally posted by cpd12589
Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have the feats to be even in the same league as Dormammu. Dormammu is just simply much more accomplished. Dormammu claimed to be at least on Odin's(or Zeus's) level during the period he stole Doctor Strange's body, and that was in the 70's. Since then he's become much more powerful and looking at his accomplishments since then one would be crazy to say that he's still on Odin's level. Especially since he beat Odin in Asgard and Loki has heard Odin speak about Dormammu with great respect.
Except it's pretty much spelled out all over the story arc that Steve Englehart introduced Shuma in that he's far greater threat Strange had tangled with before. When Shuma taunts Strange with Dormammu's image admitting inferiority Strange says the real Dormammu would "never admit" inferiority, which is essentially Strange acknowledging that Dormammu is inferior but would be too proud to actually say it.
Originally posted by cpd12589 Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange. Unless you consider having Doctor Strange kill the Ancient One a win... He's also been beaten by Conan and Crom, and of course Sise-Neg.
Except he was not actually ever fought by Conan or Crom. Both had to use the Iron Bound Books of Shuma-Gorath (a personal plot device) merely to contain him and then banish him. There was never a direct confrontation at all.
And Shuma wasn't even aware Sise-Neg was there, that's not a battle. In any case, if you're implying that Dormammu would have the slightest chance against Sise-Neg at that point in time you're sorely mistaken.
Originally posted by cpd12589 Dormammu has at least beaten Doctor Strange as many times as he him and even killed him when he became the new Ancient One. And that was when Doctor Strange had, Phoenix, Krugarr, Firelord, Ghost Rider, and the rest of the Guardians of the Galaxy on his side. The GOTG even said that Dormammu is "the deadliest foe we'll ever face". When Dormammu stole Strange's body one of the things he was going to do was take down the Celestials but before he could do that he was betrayed by Clea and attacked by Topaz from behind along with Doctor Strange.
That's all fine and dandy, but they are entirely separate situations. Strange has never been anywhere near the power he was when fighting Shuma-Gorath in any instance of fighting Dormammu.
Originally posted by cpd12589 Shuma-Gorath no doubt has amazing power. I mean he has beings like Nightmare as his servants. But Dormammu has beings like Satannish.
And Shuma-Gorath has actual Old Ones like Ghaszaszh Nyirh, a God who defeated Strange and Kaluu in battle at the same time and forced them to flee after taking out Strange's eye. And he's actually enslaved a dimensional god without even having to enter his realm.
Originally posted by cpd12589 The most amazing thing Shuma-Gorath has done is probably stalemating the Vishanti. Which is no easy feat but pales in comparison to Dormammu's. Dormammu's feats are much greater than Shuma's and Shuma-Goraths low showings are definitely lower than Dormammu's.
Shuma had one low showing where he was severely weakened and depowered, which is how Strange even had a chance against him because he still got severely beat up just getting Stonehenge to banish him. Then in Invaders Now he got stabbed with the Spear of Destiny before he was able to fully manifest on Earth.
Galactus himself has been downed by Strange with a mere spell at starving levels. Arguing where Shuma stands against Dormammu based on him being defeated while severely depowered is pointless. And the Spear of Destiny is a plot device weapon for everything, DC uses it that way too.
Originally posted by cpd12589 Bottom line is that Dormammu is simply a greater threat being much more clever and overall more powerful. Unless Shuma-Gorath is within the Chaos Dimension Dormammu is more powerful.
Yeah, no. Shuma is superior to Dormammu in any plane of existence.
Originally posted by zopzopForget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.
🙄 Here we go.
Originally posted by zopzop
I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power.
That's your prerogative, but narration and character statements disagree with you.
Originally posted by zopzop
Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).
And yet again you post nonsense. Strange had been given extensive tutelage by Kaluu and was getting stronger and stronger with his black magic as time went on. Before he even reached Shuma's servant Arioch he had greatly surpassed Kaluu in magical ability, and by extension the Ancient One as well. That's even shown when the energy of the realm was actually killing Kaluu while Strange was stranding just fine. So no, Strange was not weakened. But your lack of knowledge is evident.
You are correct that Strange was technically not at full power when he defeated Shuma-Gorath. But you're right for the wrong reasons. Why? Because he EXCEEDED his normal full power. Not only had he already exceeded Earth's most powerful black magician in power (Kaluu), but he was fused with a dimensional god AND also already begun to merge with Shuma, meaning he had Shuma's own power within him. Strange has never before or after had that much personal power. Dormammu would get utterly stomped by Strange if he confronted him in that state.
Originally posted by zopzop
And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!
See this is where logic really comes in handy, zop. They say that they "fought the unspeakable wickedness of Shuma-Gorath". That says they fought before. It's really that simple. Considering both Shuma and the Vishanti were still around, that says there was no winner. Capiche?
Originally posted by zopzopAlso beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something! 😆
And on the other side of that we have Nightmare driving Eternity to sleep and taking control over him. ZOMG FEATS FEATS! 😱 😱
Originally posted by cpd12589
...But your really right since details of the battle are undisclosed. I mean the Vishanti could've temporarily destroyed Gorath like Strange did or it could've been the other way around. But the way I take that quote is the Vishanti fought Shuma-Gorath in his dimension and the battle ended in stalemate since the Vishanti speak about him with much respect and dread. I say they fought in the Chaos Dimension because outside of it the Vishanti really should've taken him down pretty quick IMO.
So because of your personal bias you say the battle must have taken place in Shuma's dimension? Silly reason.
The battle between them could have happened absolutely anywhere and arguing over where it took place is pointless. However, I will say that a battle between them would make more logical sense if it took place on Earth considering Shuma had interests in ruling it and did so for an extended period as well as Agamotto once being Earth's protector. That would actually give them a reason to battle rather than the random decision of one trying to kill of the other in their dimension.
In any case, it is a certainty that the Vishanti were not victorious against Shuma-Gorath before, neither did they even temporarily destroy him. This is known because it's even said after Strange's battle with Shuma that not even Agamotto himself had "destroyed" a Lord of Chaos.
Originally posted by cpd12589
Also yeah that battle with Strange and Gorath in the Chaos Dimension was around the same time Strange gave his artifacts to Agamotto for safe keeping. He was originally going to destroy them but gave them to Agamotto to hold instead.
And he replaced all of the white magic power with black magic that brought him to levels exceeding that which he already knew. The white magic would have been absolutely useless in his battle.
Originally posted by cpd12589
Even though Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have many fights I still think he's a vastly powerful entity. Just not overall more powerful than Dormammu.
You'd be wrong. Shuma > Dormammu
Originally posted by cpd12589
Put it this way, Dormammu has to be feared by many more than Shuma-Gorath because of his lack of fights. When Gorath invades a dimension he must sleep for a LONG time too so even though he's very old that might have a lot to do with his lack of conflicts. Shuma-Gorath commands Nightmare, Sligguth, Ebora, N'Gabthoth, Dagoth, Kathulos, and Living Buddha. But none of those demons are as powerful as Satannish which Dormammu commands along with all the residents of the Dark Dimension, the Mindless Ones, and many more.
Firstly, Shuma-Gorath doesn't always need to sleep when he invades a dimension. His references to one point needing sleep are in regards to the time he was feasting on Earth and Sise-Neg put him in a slumber.
Secondly, some of those servants listed are servants of Set, a God much more powerful than Satannish. For Set's servants to give their allegiance to another God after already being Set's servants says a lot about Shuma's power and influence.
Originally posted by cpd12589 Doctor Strange even told Shuma-Gorath he's gotten so much weaker it's embarrassing... So how is it not a bad showing? When a mortal insults a dimensional ruler and then hands him his ass in his own dimension where he's supposed to be near omnipotent. Sounds like a bad showing to me. Also Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange, ever.
You have a scan of that quote from Strange?
And Dormammu has never fought Strange at a fraction of the power he was at when confronting Shuma, ever. 🙄
Originally posted by zopzop
What are you talking about? During the arc when Strange went on to kill Gorath, he was at his lowest point power wise because he DESTROYED all his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands! That's why he had to resort to black magic! He didn't have the Eye (not because he destroyed it but because he felt unworthy of it and didn't use it, you'll notice it's not on him), he didn't have any of his other artifacts though because they were gone! That's what makes that win over Gorath so very humiliating (for Gorath). In fact, the loss of his artifacts is what CAUSED all those demons to be set loose, since it weakened the spells banishing them from 616 reality.
Once again:
Strange had been given extensive tutelage by Kaluu and was getting stronger and stronger with his black magic as time went on. Before he even reached Shuma's servant Arioch he had greatly surpassed Kaluu in magical ability, and by extension the Ancient One as well. That's even shown when the energy of the realm was actually killing Kaluu while Strange was stranding just fine. So no, Strange was not weakened. But your lack of knowledge is evident.
You are correct that Strange was technically not at full power when he defeated Shuma-Gorath. But you're right for the wrong reasons. Why? Because he EXCEEDED his normal full power. Not only had he already exceeded Earth's most powerful black magician in power (Kaluu), but he was fused with a dimensional god AND also already begun to merge with Shuma, meaning he had Shuma's own power within him. Strange has never before or after had that much personal power. Dormammu would get utterly stomped by Strange if he confronted him in that state.
Originally posted by CortSether
Once again:Strange had been given extensive tutelage by Kaluu and was getting stronger and stronger with his black magic as time went on. Before he even reached Shuma's servant Arioch he had greatly surpassed Kaluu in magical ability, and by extension the Ancient One as well. That's even shown when the energy of the realm was actually killing Kaluu while Strange was stranding just fine. So no, Strange was not weakened. But your lack of knowledge is evident.
You are correct that Strange was technically not at full power when he defeated Shuma-Gorath. But you're right for the wrong reasons. Why? Because he EXCEEDED his normal full power. Not only had he already exceeded Earth's most powerful black magician in power (Kaluu), but he was fused with a dimensional god AND also already begun to merge with Shuma, meaning he had Shuma's own power within him. Strange has never before or after had that much personal power. Dormammu would get utterly stomped by Strange if he confronted him in that state.
Bullsh|t, the very reason the demons were free in the first place was because the spells protecting Earth cast by him and other sorcerers through the years weakened because of the loss of his artifacts!
Even the one artifact that wasn't destroyed, the Eye, he felt he was unworthy of wielding so he didn't use it.
He was nowhere near full power.
Originally posted by CortSether
See this is where logic really comes in handy, zop. They say that they "fought the unspeakable wickedness of Shuma-Gorath". That says they fought before. It's really that simple. Considering both Shuma and the Vishanti were still around, that says there was no winner. Capiche?
Considering Gorath never conquered 616 reality and is more or less trapped in his dimension while the Vishanti are free to roam the universe says someone for sure won. Capiche?
And on the other side of that we have Nightmare driving Eternity to sleep and taking control over him. ZOMG FEATS FEATS! 😱 😱
Too bad for you Eternity ALLOWED that to happen as a test. Nice try though.
Originally posted by zopzopThat could mean anything. They wouldn't even necessarily have fought directly, they could have done it through their servants, exactly like they did in that arc.
Considering Gorath never conquered 616 reality and is more or less trapped in his dimension while the Vishanti are free to roam the universe says someone for sure won. Capiche?
Barring its meaning being scrutinized and muddied, if we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for a perfectly decisive statement, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator / admission of power in Marvel with an axe to grind.
When you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader / viewer, the simplest interpretations are the only ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can 'ask' ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can 'throw into the equation' random 'what-ifs' coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other, so it was a stalemate." Which are all factual conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach.
And S-G is not trapped in his dimension. He was already seen roaming space in Invaders.
Too bad for you Eternity ALLOWED that to happen as a test. Nice try though.
Funny how you apply a special circumstance in this case but when it takes heavy plot device regarding Shuma you just ignore it and say "Strange beat Shuma, not Dormammu. Therefore, Dormammu > Shuma." Pretty funny logic.
Originally posted by zopzop
Bullsh|t, the very reason the demons were free in the first place was because the spells protecting Earth cast by him and other sorcerers through the years weakened because of the loss of his artifacts!Even the one artifact that wasn't destroyed, the Eye, he felt he was unworthy of wielding so he didn't use it.
He was nowhere near full power.
He was weaker initially but had grown stronger with time. That's the whole reason Kaluu became his mentor and started to train him. It's clearly evident that he became much more powerful toward the end of his journey. How else do you think he was able to force Arioch to fuse with him? He had to gain a mastery over black magic, such that even Kaluu wasn't able to hold that amount of power.
Strange was far superior at the point of fighting Shuma than he ever had been, zop.
There is no question that Shuma Gorath has repeatedly been mishandled by writers. Vastly elevated titles, powers, myths, off-panel-feats and descriptions were placed upon Shuma, but have never matched up with the stories we see.
Really, poorly handled. Which is why we have the conflicts that are arising in this thread.
If "official character profile", both in and outside of stories, are to be believed, then Shuma should be the more powerful entity here.
But, as I stated, unfortunately, there is a huge gap between profile and feats.
Now, Dormammu is a different situation. Rather than being a true "deity" or foundation abstract, I have always seen him as more of a trans-level Dr. Doom, judging by his history and his feats. Of course this has brought him to a station of great power, but he still has a personality to go along with his hunger.
I would imagine that part of the reason why Shuma has never attained more on-panel greatness, is because of his lack of a "humanoid" connection with writers and possibly readers. He always seems to be behind situations, until the story peaks, then he mysteriously turns into the "monster" that must be defeated in an ultimate battle.
The writers have simply ignored the possibility of treating him as anything more than a "monster" and because of this, we never see him gaining goals, outsmarting enemies, conquering high-powers.
On the other hand, Dormammu is easier for them to connect with and so, is shown to move through the stories with elaborate actions, deep histories and powers that are desired by humans.
So, imo, the stories probably do elevate Dormammu above Shuma Gorath. But, at the same time, they probably shouldn't.
Just mho.
