Dormammu vs Shuma-Gorath

Originally posted by Horrificus
There is no question that Shuma Gorath has repeatedly been mishandled by writers. Vastly elevated titles, powers, myths, off-panel-feats and descriptions were placed upon Shuma, but have never matched up with the stories we see.

Really, poorly handled. Which is why we have the conflicts that are arising in this thread.

If "official character profile", both in and outside of stories, are to be believed, then Shuma should be the more powerful entity here.

But, as I stated, unfortunately, there is a huge gap between profile and feats.

Now, Dormammu is a different situation. Rather than being a true "deity" or foundation abstract, I have always seen him as more of a trans-level Dr. Doom, judging by his history and his feats. Of course this has brought him to a station of great power, but he still has a personality to go along with his hunger.

I would imagine that part of the reason why Shuma has never attained more on-panel greatness, is because of his lack of a "humanoid" connection with writers and possibly readers. He always seems to be behind situations, until the story peaks, then he mysteriously turns into the "monster" that must be defeated in an ultimate battle.

The writers have simply ignored the possibility of treating him as anything more than a "monster" and because of this, we never see him gaining goals, outsmarting enemies, conquering high-powers.

On the other hand, Dormammu is easier for them to connect with and so, is shown to move through the stories with elaborate actions, deep histories and powers that are desired by humans.

So, imo, the stories probably do elevate Dormammu above Shuma Gorath. But, at the same time, they probably shouldn't.

Just mho.

like

Originally posted by Cogito
Waaay too many words in this thread g007-psyduck

🙄

Shuma seems like the Big-G of Magic. His powers can fluctuate big time.

Originally posted by CortSether
Barring its meaning being scrutinized and muddied, if we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for a perfectly decisive statement, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator / admission of power in Marvel with an axe to grind.

When you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader / viewer, the simplest interpretations are the only ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can 'ask' ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can 'throw into the equation' random 'what-ifs' coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other, so it was a stalemate." Which are all factual conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach.

And S-G is not trapped in his dimension. He was already seen roaming space in Invaders.

Up till that Strange arc, he WAS trapped in his dimension and that's why he was trying to break out through the Ancient One.

Funny how you apply a special circumstance in this case but when it takes heavy plot device regarding Shuma you just ignore it and say "Strange beat Shuma, not Dormammu. Therefore, Dormammu > Shuma." Pretty funny logic.

He was weaker initially but had grown stronger with time. That's the whole reason Kaluu became his mentor and started to train him. It's clearly evident that he became much more powerful toward the end of his journey. How else do you think he was able to force Arioch to fuse with him? He had to gain a mastery over black magic, such that even Kaluu wasn't able to hold that amount of power.

Strange was far superior at the point of fighting Shuma than he ever had been, zop.

He absolutely was NOT more powerful sans his artifacts than with them. That makes no sense. He had no Wand of Watoomb, no Book of the Vishanti, no Eye of Agamotto, no access to light/white magic that is used vs demons.

Hell he had to ask Victoria (Bentley?)for her power to face off vs demons (because he power was exhausted) and this was in that very issue he would face down with Arioch. 😆

Originally posted by zopzop

Up till that Strange arc, he WAS trapped in his dimension and that's why he was trying to break out through the Ancient One.

He was shut out of the prime reality, not all dimensions. Shuma's still barred from the prime reality without being invoked by someone else.

What special circumstances? Eternity stated so himself! And the only reason it was even possible for Nightmare to attempt this was because it happened after he and Dormammu faced off!
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1783131-drstrange_18218_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1783132-drstrange_18219_super.jpg

I'm saying that it's funny how you seem to only find plot points relevant in circumstances that don't concern Shuma-Gorath, yet when plot devices are the only things that enable Strange a victory over Shuma you act like they don't exist and make out like Shuma was overcome straight up without plot backing up Strange.

He absolutely was NOT more powerful sans his artifacts than with them. That makes no sense. He had no Wand of Watoomb, no Book of the Vishanti, no Eye of Agamotto, no access to light/white magic that is used vs demons.

And yet when confronted by Shuma-Gorath the first time he was helpless even when he still had the ability to cast white magic and had to resort to killing the Ancient One in order to survive. He couldn't even defeat Shuma's manifestation in the AO's mind with his own power yet he was able to travel into Shuma's realm once he had infused himself with black magic. Proof enough that he was far stronger at that point.

Hell he had to ask Victoria (Bentley?)for her power to face off vs demons (because he power was exhausted) and this was in that very issue he would face down with Arioch. 😆

Don't really see how that's funny. Victoria Bentley had magical potential that made Baron Mordo frightened at the thought of her being able to realize that potential and learn how to use it. He even suggested killing her so she wouldn't be a future threat.

In any case, at the time of confronting Shuma, Strange had been taught various black magics by Kaluu, taken Bentley's power which frightened even Baron Mordo, received Eldritch power from the Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh (who had taken out Strange's eye and defeated he and Kaluu at the same time), and fused with the chaos lord Arioch. Even still, he could only stalemate Shuma until he started to merge with Shuma's very energy after Shuma struck him.

Strange combined with Shuma/Arioch/magic from Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Bentley and Kaluu >>>>>>>>>>> Strange with his regular arsenal of white magic.

Or can Strange bust multiple galaxies with his mere presence at regular levels now? 🙄

Originally posted by CortSether
He was shut out of the prime reality, not all dimensions. Shuma's still barred from the prime reality without being invoked by someone else.

I'm saying that it's funny how you seem to only find plot points relevant in circumstances that don't concern Shuma-Gorath, yet when plot devices are the only things that enable Strange a victory over Shuma you act like they don't exist and make out like Shuma was overcome straight up without plot backing up Strange.

And yet when confronted by Shuma-Gorath the first time he was helpless even when he still had the ability to cast white magic and had to resort to killing the Ancient One in order to survive. He couldn't even defeat Shuma's manifestation in the AO's mind with his own power yet he was able to travel into Shuma's realm once he had infused himself with black magic. Proof enough that he was far stronger at that point.

Don't really see how that's funny. Victoria Bentley had magical potential that made Baron Mordo frightened at the thought of her being able to realize that potential and learn how to use it. He even suggested killing her so she wouldn't be a future threat.

In any case, at the time of confronting Shuma, Strange had been taught various black magics by Kaluu, taken Bentley's power which frightened even Baron Mordo, received Eldritch power from the Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh (who had taken out Strange's eye and defeated he and Kaluu at the same time), and fused with the chaos lord Arioch. Even still, he could only stalemate Shuma until he started to merge with Shuma's very energy after Shuma struck him.

Strange combined with Shuma/Arioch/magic from Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Bentley and Kaluu >>>>>>>>>>> Strange with his regular arsenal of white magic.

Or can Strange bust multiple galaxies with his mere presence at regular levels now? 🙄

Victoria Bentley was merely Strange's (almost) disciple. She was a nothing. But Strange was so desperate, since he burned himself out, that he needed something, anything to continue the fight vs Gorath's demons. He was nowhere near his full power. This is ridiculous.

When Strange confronted Gorath the first time, he was still the AO's disciple. He hadn't assumed the full mantle of Sorcerer Supreme. That would happen AFTER his mentor's death.

And what plot device? Strange OWNED Gorath's lieutenant AND Gorath himself, in their own realms! Arioch's ownage was literally accomplished in 7 or so panels! 😆

When did Strange ever "bust a galaxy" after he defeated Gorath? That was hyperbole with NOTHING to back it up on panel.

Originally posted by zopzop
Victoria Bentley was merely Strange's (almost) disciple. She was a nothing. But Strange was so desperate, since he burned himself out, that he needed something, anything to continue the fight vs Gorath's demons. He was nowhere near his full power. This is ridiculous.

Continue to ignore facts.

Originally posted by zopzop
And what plot device?

Merging with Gods. He never would have stood a chance against Shuma had he not done so.

Originally posted by zopzop
When did Strange ever "bust a galaxy" after he defeated Gorath? That was hyperbole with NOTHING to back it up on panel.

But there was something to back that up. When Kaluu tried to use his magic to open the way out of the realm a large explosion of energy surrounded Strange. Kaluu saw Strange's energy react with the realm when he tried leading the way out and knew what that would mean had he entered their reality with that energy still on him.

Oh, and there's also that little bit about Strange being able to outright kill Kaluu just by touching him.

Not hyperbole.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bullsh|t, the very reason the demons were free in the first place was because the spells protecting Earth cast by him and other sorcerers through the years weakened because of the loss of his artifacts!

Even the one artifact that wasn't destroyed, the Eye, he felt he was unworthy of wielding so he didn't use it.

He was nowhere near full power.

Once again agreed.

@CortSether: Doctor Strange was nowhere near full power when fighting Shuma-Gorath in the Chaos Dimension. Agamotto held Doctor Strange's artifacts for him so Urthona wouldn't get them. That's why zopzop is saying Shuma-Gorath's loss to Doctor Strange in the Chaos Dimension was so embarrassing. Shuma-Gorath has never defeated Doctor Strange, not once. Other than taking over Nightmares dimension, and the fight with the Vishanti which the outcome is unknown, who has Shuma-Gorath beaten?

What are all of Shuma-Gorath's fights?

@Horrificus: by "official character profile" do you mean the Official Handbooks of the Marvel Universe Power Grids? If that's what your talking about then it's like this. 0 to 7 with 7 being the highest.

Shuma-Gorath

INTELLIGENCE - 3
STRENGTH - 7
SPEED - 2
DURABILITY - 7
ENERGY PROJECTION - 6
FIGHTING SKILLS - 2

Dormammu

INTELLIGENCE - 6
STRENGTH - 7
SPEED - 7
DURABILITY - 7
ENERGY PROJECTION - 7
FIGHTING SKILLS - 4

You know Strange got back to full power before he faces Shuma, and he absorbed the power of his lieutenant Arioch before fighting him - Arioch was easily Skyfather level or higher

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You know Strange got back to full power before he faces Shuma, and he absorbed the power of his lieutenant Arioch before fighting him - Arioch was easily Skyfather level or higher

You know this how? Arioch only had ONE appearance and he was OWNED.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You know Strange got back to full power before he faces Shuma, and he absorbed the power of his lieutenant Arioch before fighting him - Arioch was easily Skyfather level or higher

I definitely wouldn't put Arioch at Skyfather level..... Especially since Doctor Strange defeated him without any of his artifacts in 2 pages. Agamotto had all his artifacts except the Cloak of Levitation. Arioch's claim to "infinite" power is such ridiculous hyperbole. I mean if he had infinite power he wouldn't be Shuma-Gorath's servant.

Either way Doctor Strange absorbing Arioch's power most definitely made him much more powerful but if he had his artifacts like the Eye of Agamotto, Orb of Agamotto, Book of Vishanti, or use of white magic instead of Arioch's power he would've been more powerful. Basically full powered Doctor Strange is greater than his showing vs Shuma-Gorath in the Chaos Dimension.

There are different levels of infinity in Marvel - remember Kubik's explanation about this to Kosmos

Arioch got owned because Strange had a plot device to steal other magicians power. He got owned by his own power.

Its stated he will become simply Shuma Gorath after he defeated him. That's why Strange committed suicide.

Defeating him is win for him unless Dormmammu would rather kill himself everytime.

Originally posted by cpd12589
Once again agreed.

@CortSether: Doctor Strange was nowhere near full power when fighting Shuma-Gorath in the Chaos Dimension. Agamotto held Doctor Strange's artifacts for him so Urthona wouldn't get them. That's why zopzop is saying Shuma-Gorath's loss to Doctor Strange in the Chaos Dimension was so embarrassing. Shuma-Gorath has never defeated Doctor Strange, not once. Other than taking over Nightmares dimension, and the fight with the Vishanti which the outcome is unknown, who has Shuma-Gorath beaten?
What are all of Shuma-Gorath's fights?

Oh gawd...

Strange was far superior to his normal self by the time he merged with Shuma, it's no comparison. It's spelled all over the plot.

By the time Strange had merged with Shuma's energy (which was what enabled Strange to harm and eventually defeat him) he was leaps and bounds greater.

1) His presence would have destroyed galaxies. NOT hyperbole as it is shown on panel that when Kaluu tries to open the path out of the realm using his magic an explosion erupts and consumes the vicinity. It is from this that Kaluu based his statement that Strange would bust galaxies. It's a definitive statement "could and WOULD destroy galaxies" from a master of black magic. Strange was forced to let go of some of his energy before leaving the first plane they were in so he wouldn't destroy the earth just by his arrival.

2) Even after Kaluu and Strange had gone through dimensional planes of existence, which is AFTER Strange first got rid of some of his energy, Kaluu tried striking him only to be dismissively blocked by a swipe of Strange's hand. This harms Kaluu so much that he outright says he'll die if he so much as touches Strange again.

Hell, he surpassed the combined Vishanti by the time he merged with Shuma seeing as how he was able to destroy Shuma temporarily. It's further confirmed that Strange was at a higher level than ever when it is said that not even Agamotto himself had destroyed a lord of chaos.

3) Outcome of Shuma's fight with the Vishanti is known. There was no winner. It's stated quite simply that they fought before and considering in none of their bios or in any panels was it said that one was destroyed by the other, the only logical conclusion to make of it is a stalemate.

Yet you and zop want to argue that Strange with his standard set of spells is superior to the Strange that fought Shuma-Gorath because:

1) Just because
2) He didn't have spells from other (ZOMG FEATLESS!) gods like raggador and watoomb
3) He couldn't use the Eye of Agamotto (as if that would help at all considering Agamotto had already proven to be unable to defeat Shuma)

Yea, there's not a whole lot going for you in trying to prove Strange with his standard spells is superior to Strange merged with, lets see...

1) Shuma-Gorath
2) Arioch
3) Magical energy from Victoria Bentley (whose magic potential was greater than Baron Mordo's)
4) Eldrich energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh
5) Various black magics taught by the master of black magic, Kaluu

So Strange merged with two Gods, magical energy from a Great Old One, magical power from Victoria Bentley, and knowledge of an array of spells taught to him by Kaluu is somehow inferior to Strange with white magic from a god who couldn't even defeat Shuma-Gorath beforehand (Agamotto) and other deities we've seen nothing from?
🙄

In any case, it's pointless to debate you about this anymore. You've already got your mind set and considering you have Dormammu as an avatar...

Entertaining thread. Seems as if it takes Shuma to bring CortSether out from KMC hiatus. mmm

Seriously, Doramammu would put up a good fight but it would take something like him merging with himself from another timeline like he did against GOTG to pull off a win. Hell, Sise Neg had to secretly banish Shuma before Shuma could sense his presence. This was after Sise Neg had just about absorbed all the mystical energy in 616.

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh gawd...

Strange was far superior to his normal self by the time he merged with Shuma, it's no comparison. It's spelled all over the plot.

By the time Strange had merged with Shuma's energy (which was what enabled Strange to harm and eventually defeat him) he was leaps and bounds greater.

1) His presence would have destroyed galaxies. NOT hyperbole as it is shown on panel that when Kaluu tries to open the path out of the realm using his magic an explosion erupts and consumes the vicinity. It is from this that Kaluu based his statement that Strange would bust galaxies. It's a definitive statement "could and WOULD destroy galaxies" from a master of black magic. Strange was forced to let go of some of his energy before leaving the first plane they were in so he wouldn't destroy the earth just by his arrival.

2) Even after Kaluu and Strange had gone through dimensional planes of existence, which is AFTER Strange first got rid of some of his energy, Kaluu tried striking him only to be dismissively blocked by a swipe of Strange's hand. This harms Kaluu so much that he outright says he'll die if he so much as touches Strange again.

Hell, he surpassed the combined Vishanti by the time he merged with Shuma seeing as how he was able to destroy Shuma temporarily. It's further confirmed that Strange was at a higher level than ever when it is said that not even Agamotto himself had destroyed a lord of chaos.

3) Outcome of Shuma's fight with the Vishanti is known. There was no winner. It's stated quite simply that they fought before and considering in none of their bios or in any panels was it said that one was destroyed by the other, the only logical conclusion to make of it is a stalemate.

Yet you and zop want to argue that Strange with his standard set of spells is superior to the Strange that fought Shuma-Gorath because:

1) Just because
2) He didn't have spells from other (ZOMG FEATLESS!) gods like raggador and watoomb
3) He couldn't use the Eye of Agamotto (as if that would help at all considering Agamotto had already proven to be unable to defeat Shuma)

Yea, there's not a whole lot going for you in trying to prove Strange with his standard spells is superior to Strange merged with, lets see...

1) Shuma-Gorath
2) Arioch
3) Magical energy from Victoria Bentley (whose magic potential was greater than Baron Mordo's)
4) Eldrich energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh
5) Various black magics taught by the master of black magic, Kaluu

So Strange merged with two Gods, magical energy from a Great Old One, magical power from Victoria Bentley, and knowledge of an array of spells taught to him by Kaluu is somehow inferior to Strange with white magic from a god who couldn't even defeat Shuma-Gorath beforehand (Agamotto) and other deities we've seen nothing from?
🙄

In any case, it's pointless to debate you about this anymore. You've already got your mind set and considering you have Dormammu as an avatar...

Because of an avatar..... Come on now....

I'm not saying it's not possible that Shuma > than Dormammu. Just that with what has been seen of Shuma-Gorath it certainly isn't looking good for him.

Also the outcome of the battle between Shuma-Gorath and the Vishanti isn't known. LOL You talk about it like it's fact. All that is established by what the Vishanti said about Shuma-Gorath is that 1 - he is very powerful and 2 - they fought at one point in time.

That's like saying that the Miami Heat have won a championship because the Dallas Mavericks don't want to play them because they have 3 of the best players in the NBA. When in actuality the Mavericks beat the Heat in the finals and the Heat haven't won shit.

I mean even though Doctor Strange temporarily destroyed Shuma-Gorath he still doesn't want to go mess with him.

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh gawd...

Strange was far superior to his normal self by the time he merged with Shuma, it's no comparison. It's spelled all over the plot.

By the time Strange had merged with Shuma's energy (which was what enabled Strange to harm and eventually defeat him) he was leaps and bounds greater.

1) His presence would have destroyed galaxies. NOT hyperbole as it is shown on panel that when Kaluu tries to open the path out of the realm using his magic an explosion erupts and consumes the vicinity. It is from this that Kaluu based his statement that Strange would bust galaxies. It's a definitive statement "could and WOULD destroy galaxies" from a master of black magic. Strange was forced to let go of some of his energy before leaving the first plane they were in so he wouldn't destroy the earth just by his arrival.

2) Even after Kaluu and Strange had gone through dimensional planes of existence, which is AFTER Strange first got rid of some of his energy, Kaluu tried striking him only to be dismissively blocked by a swipe of Strange's hand. This harms Kaluu so much that he outright says he'll die if he so much as touches Strange again.

Hell, he surpassed the combined Vishanti by the time he merged with Shuma seeing as how he was able to destroy Shuma temporarily. It's further confirmed that Strange was at a higher level than ever when it is said that not even Agamotto himself had destroyed a lord of chaos.

3) Outcome of Shuma's fight with the Vishanti is known. There was no winner. It's stated quite simply that they fought before and considering in none of their bios or in any panels was it said that one was destroyed by the other, the only logical conclusion to make of it is a stalemate.

Yet you and zop want to argue that Strange with his standard set of spells is superior to the Strange that fought Shuma-Gorath because:

1) Just because
2) He didn't have spells from other (ZOMG FEATLESS!) gods like raggador and watoomb
3) He couldn't use the Eye of Agamotto (as if that would help at all considering Agamotto had already proven to be unable to defeat Shuma)

Yea, there's not a whole lot going for you in trying to prove Strange with his standard spells is superior to Strange merged with, lets see...

1) Shuma-Gorath
2) Arioch
3) Magical energy from Victoria Bentley (whose magic potential was greater than Baron Mordo's)
4) Eldrich energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh
5) Various black magics taught by the master of black magic, Kaluu

So Strange merged with two Gods, magical energy from a Great Old One, magical power from Victoria Bentley, and knowledge of an array of spells taught to him by Kaluu is somehow inferior to Strange with white magic from a god who couldn't even defeat Shuma-Gorath beforehand (Agamotto) and other deities we've seen nothing from?
🙄

In any case, it's pointless to debate you about this anymore. You've already got your mind set and considering you have Dormammu as an avatar...

Because of an avatar..... Come on now....

I'm not saying it's not possible that Shuma > than Dormammu. Just that with what has been seen of Shuma-Gorath it certainly isn't looking good for him.

Also the outcome of the battle between Shuma-Gorath and the Vishanti isn't known. LOL You talk about it like it's fact. All that is established by what the Vishanti said about Shuma-Gorath is that 1 - he is very powerful and 2 - they fought at one point in time.

That's like saying that the Miami Heat have won a championship because the Dallas Mavericks don't want to play them because they have 3 of the best players in the NBA. When in actuality the Mavericks beat the Heat in the finals and the Heat haven't won shit.

I mean even though Doctor Strange temporarily destroyed Shuma-Gorath he still doesn't want to go mess with him. So like I said what the Vishanti said about Gorath tells nothing about what happened or what could've happened.