Silver Surfer vs Superman (IN CHARACTER)

Originally posted by carver9
What foes are this? Both have feats, they are just different feats because both are put in different situations.

Guys like Doomsday, Hank Henshaw, Blaze, Satannus, The Crime Syndicate, Zod, The Elite (Glads doesn't seem smart enough to deal with guys like them given his performances against the likes of Hulk and Masterson Thor).

Guys like Darkseid in S/B where their blows were apparently shaking the solar system.

I'm not even going to mention beating guys like Dominus because that would be unfair, as he was operating on a crazy level at the time.

I like how this turned into a Glads vs Supes thread.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And Bill is also neither as strong, nor as durable as Thor. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Thor has physically beaten the Surfer a number of times. And I think most people would agree that as far as feats go, Superman's strength and durability feats are more impressive than Thor's (of course Thor has other advantages over Superman). Also, the Surfer would have a limited speed advantage over Superman, and be at a disadvantage when it comes to combat speed....by quite a lot.

Bill's not on Thor's level. Not anymore imo. He was as close as you can get to an equal under Simonson I'd argue but even then I'd still give Thor the edge in a straight up fight without outside influences.

During Blood and Thunder Bill did pretty well against Thor when he used his head and owned Surfer, Strange etc. IIRC. I think writers simply view him as a Thor stand in. I think he should lose the Thor like outfit and grow into his own character.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman and Gladiator like most high end heralds are on par with average.

The truth is, Gladiator isn't superior, or on par with Superman, any way you look at it.

It's like a reflex isn't it?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Bill's not on Thor's level. Not anymore imo. He was as close as you can get to an equal under Simonson I'd argue but I'd still give Thor the edge in a straight up fight without outside influences.

I don't really think he ever was. I was arguing with someone on another thread about this. Thor has one-shotted Bill AFTER being hit from behind by Bill, and having just been in a fight with Sif. he beat Bill and the Surfer at once. Thor's high end strength and durability feats leave Bill in the dust. Thor saved his ass in the Secret Invasion Asgard (taking a direct hit from Bill's hammer thrown by someone stronger than Bill). And Bill's 2 wins over Thor occurred 1)Thanks to the 60 second curse. 2) Thanks to Odin selecting the battlefield to be in BRB's favor, and being against a Thor with no hammer, at a time when his power was completely tied to the hammer. Also, look at the difference between Thor constantly trashing Heralds of Galactus, and Bill usually stalemating them.

Originally posted by Starscream M
but black holes aren't energy...they're the absence of energy. maybe im mistaken though.

You are mistaken; black holes give out Hawking radiation.

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/hawk.html

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I don't really think he ever was. I was arguing with someone on another thread about this. Thor has one-shotted Bill AFTER being hit from behind by Bill, and having just been in a fight with Sif. he beat Bill and the Surfer at once. Thor's high end strength and durability feats leave Bill in the dust. Thor saved his ass in the Secret Invasion Asgard (taking a direct hit from Bill's hammer thrown by someone stronger than Bill). And Bill's 2 wins over Thor occurred 1)Thanks to the 60 second curse. 2) Thanks to Odin selecting the battlefield to be in BRB's favor, and being against a Thor with no hammer, at a time when his power was completely tied to the hammer. Also, look at the difference between Thor constantly trashing Heralds of Galactus, and Bill usually stalemating them.

I don't really think that's fair to Bill. At the time Thor one-shotted him, Bill had previously withstood a bit of savage beating from Thor, meaning he should have been pretty roughed up.

Of course Bill doesn't have as many lifting feats etc. but that isn't the final factor in determining a character's ranking. True, Thor did noticeably outperform Bill in: Secret Invasion, their encounter right after Blood and Thunder, and in battle with Loki. This is why I think Thor's above him currently, but this clearly was not always the case. Under Walter, Bill was about as close as you could get to Thor without being Thor himself imo. It was the entire point of the character.

Again, the conditions of their fight, it being heavily implied Thor would have won if not for the environment favoring Bill due to Odin's manipulations, and Bill admitting that even then, he was "lucky", is one of the reason I would argue that Thor would have gotten the edge in a neutral environment even then.

You are correct, Bill's wins over Thor did have circumstances.

What's this talk about Thor's power being completely tied to his hammer? The one time, Bill didn't thrash a herald of Galactus is in his most recent fight with Surfer.

So yea....

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I love how people think that hitting Bill is somehow the same as hitting Superman when Superman is about a million times faster.

Something is wrong with you all. Do you not understand what "fight in character" means?

THEN, Bill isn't a slouch in the speed department and the Surfer fight was proof of this. They WERE fighting at intense speed INCLUDING Bill but that sneak attack caught him off guard. Surfer was blasting at him the sane time the board was coming at Bills neck.

There is no way around that.

Originally posted by carver9
Something is wrong with you all. Do you not understand what "fight in character" means?

THEN, Bill isn't a slouch in the speed department and the Surfer fight was proof of this. They WERE fighting at intense speed INCLUDING Bill but that sneak attack caught him off guard. Surfer was blasting at him the sane time the board was coming at Bills neck.

There is no way around that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't really think that's fair to Bill. At the time Thor one-shotted him, Bill had previously withstood a bit of savage beating from Thor, meaning he should have been pretty roughed up.

Of course Bill doesn't have as many lifting feats etc. but that isn't the final factor in determining a character's ranking. True, Thor did noticeably outperform Bill in: Secret Invasion, their encounter right after Blood and Thunder, and in battle with Loki. This is why I think Thor's above him currently, but this clearly was not always the case. Under Walter, Bill was about as close as you could get to Thor without being Thor himself imo. It was the entire point of the character.

Again, the conditions of their fight, it being heavily implied Thor would have won if not for the environment favoring Bill due to Odin's manipulations, and Bill admitting that even then, he was "lucky", is one of the reason I would argue that Thor would have gotten the edge in a neutral environment even then.

You are correct, Bill's wins over Thor did have circumstances.

What's this talk about Thor's power being completely tied to his hammer? The one time, Bill didn't thrash a herald of Galactus is in his most recent fight with Surfer.

So yea....

Yeah, I'm not saying Bill is a slouch by any means, but he's no thor (also, Thor has the option of warrior's madness and a god blast, and also has lightning and weather control without his hammer...all advantages BRB doesn't have).

Didn't Odin tie Thor's powers to his hammer during that period? i.e.....no hammer, no thor. I assumed the Thor fighting BRB wasn't a full powered Thor in the fight Odin set up. Although I guess I can't really prove that.

I'm not sure what the status is on Warrior Madness anymore. After Thor #502, I think it's something reserved only for "Gods" or whatever, but Bill can perform a God Blast in some fashion. At least with noticeably coaxing and/or spiritual help with Thor.

He reverted to Blake after being separated from his hammer for 60 seconds but that was only in Earth space. It didn't apply in the realm they were in.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
"Fighting in character" isn't a biword for "Beta Ray Bill and Superman have the same speed"

That's the thing, we don't even know how fast Bill, Surfer, Thor, Supes, Gladiator, Firelord, Doomsday, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Bizarro, Zod, Nova, Darkseid, Star Dust, fight (there are others). According to KMC, all of them fight at light speed and then we have some that say trillions of times the speed of light.

If you give me a showing of Superman fighting someone at such speed (like how it was stated on panel that flash and Zoom were fighting at light, or how it was stated on panel that Northstar was fighting the xmen at light speed), then I could probably find something from Bill to match it.

So what do you got to make you think during combat Supes is millions of times faster?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm not sure what the status is on Warrior Madness anymore. After Thor #502, I think it's something reserved only for "Gods" or whatever.

Haven't read it. Do you have any relevant scans handy?

Originally posted by carver9
That's the thing, we don't even know how fast Bill, Surfer, Thor, Supes, Gladiator, Firelord, Doomsday, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Bizarro, Zod, Nova, Darkseid, Star Dust, fight (there are others). According to KMC, all of them fight at light speed and then we have some that say trillions of times the speed of light.

If you give me a showing of Superman fighting someone at such speed (like how it was stated on panel that flash and Zoom were fighting at light, or how it was stated on panel that Northstar was fighting the xmen at light speed), then I could probably find something from Bill to match it.

So what do you got to make you think during combat Supes is millions of times faster?

Seriously Carver?

Originally posted by carver9
Something is wrong with you all. Do you not understand what "fight in character" means?

THEN, Bill isn't a slouch in the speed department and the Surfer fight was proof of this. They WERE fighting at intense speed INCLUDING Bill but that sneak attack caught him off guard. Surfer was blasting at him the sane time the board was coming at Bills neck.

There is no way around that.

Two projectiles is hardly inescapable, these aren't finder beams after all. And Bill isn't the kind of guy that looks to evade blows. Between the both of them someone like Supes is far more elusive.

And the speed they operate at is based on feats and power set, it's not ambiguous. Supes would be a lot quicker than Bill in close quarters.

There's another area Thor trumps Bill in. Thor has many more impressive combat speed feats than Bill.

That's just the nature of the beast. Thor's been around far longer and has far more chances to show off his capabilities than Bill.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Haven't read it. Do you have any relevant scans handy?

It's not as clear cut as I remembered it being but here you go:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/10TimesStrength.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/10TimesStrength2.jpg

Originally posted by Omega Vision
This is the same argument you've forwarded and had defeated countless times.

Seriously Carver?

I am asking you for a combat feat because both of them have traveled millions of light years in no time. Fast hand motion... Bill has done this as well, blitzing at super speed... Bill has done this. The only thing that is missing is after images.

Originally posted by Allankles
Two projectiles is hardly inescapable, these aren't finder beams after all. And Bill isn't the kind of guy that looks to evade blows. Between the both of them someone like Supes is far more elusive.

And the speed they operate at is based on feats and power set, it's not ambiguous. Supes would be a lot quicker than Bill in close quarters.

Now I agree wih this, his body movement is faster than Bills. He could POSSIBLY evade the board, it depends on how fast the board is coming imo.