Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
1) That's the problem though. It's not illogical. Logic does not rule out a creator. Science rule out certain creations, such as creationism, but not logic nor science rule out a creator 🙂2) You say you have no proof of God.
Two thousand years ago you had no proof that God didn't exist.
A thousand years ago you had no proof that the sun revolved around Earth.
A hundred years ago you had no proof that you could walk on the moon.
Ten years ago you had no proof life could exist without phosphorous.
Today you have no proof that God doesn't exist.History and therefore logic dictate that just because you don't have proof, doesn't mean it can't be so. Don't try to use logic to say that God doesn't exist. It's fallible and stupid 😛
1) An alleged creator allegedly that created itself from nothing is iliogical.
2) There is proof that most of the scientific claims made by the god squad are wrong. They keep making statements that describe god from a faith POV. Not a scientific one or one of any definition that holds up to serious analysis or scrutiny.. they seem to be claims they are 100% certain about....(Except what it looks like, how it came to be, exactly it's intentions, its thoughts, motives etc)
3) The onus is one the people making outrageous claims of the supernatural....hence why proof is required. Your last point was too fallible and stupid to be addressed beyond that, Im afraid. 😛
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
That's the problem though. It's not illogical. Logic does not rule out a creator. Science rule out certain creations, such as creationism, but not logic nor science rule out a creator 🙂You say you have no proof of God.
Two thousand years ago you had no proof that God didn't exist.
A thousand years ago you had no proof that the sun revolved around Earth.
A hundred years ago you had no proof that you could walk on the moon.
Ten years ago you had no proof life could exist without phosphorous.
Today you have no proof that God doesn't exist.History and therefore logic dictate that just because you don't have proof, doesn't mean it can't be so. Don't try to use logic to say that God doesn't exist. It's fallible and stupid 😛
The problem is Pinkie, that we have now proven all of those things except for God's existence. The problem is is that no matter how advanced we have become technoligically, we still haven't been able to prove God exists. I mean, even the invisible things like the atom and viruses have been proven, but still we can't find this invisble man in the sky. All these seemingly impossible things we have found to be true and we still haven't even made a scratch on the existence of a God is making more likely there isn't one.
oh , and two thouand years ago we also didn't have proof that He existed either. It was just that people were being murdered for not believing. Thank goodness this is not the case here.
Why the sudden quoting of me? 😛
You are missing the whole point, socool. How would it be easier to prove a sophisticated being who supposedly created the universe, than an atom, if this being should not want to be seen? An atom exist in a realm we have been able to access. I strongly believe there is something spiritual about this world. If there is, not saying that there is, but if there is then that is a realm of its own and we lack the tools to investigate it.
About what I said before, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because supporters can not support their claim, does not mean they are wrong. Simply that they can not support their claim ❌
As for you, Sadako, there was nothing fallible about my last point, unless you think history is illogical. If I understand you correctly, you are confusing logic and science. Logic can not prove that God does not exist, it actually implore the opposite ✅
Originally posted by TacDavey
disgust Oh, you know what I meant. They don't have personalities or emotions.
You do not know that. I want to believe that they do and there is nothing to say otherwise 😛
You are right. There is nothing logical about that. And a fair statement deserve a fair question: How did anything at all come to be, then? Something must have been the first thing. If the answer is that the universe has always been, then what is to say that God has not always been, should He at all be? If it has not always been, how did it first come to be?
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
Why the sudden quoting of me? 😛You are missing the whole point, socool. How would it be easier to prove a sophisticated being who supposedly created the universe, than an atom, if this being should not want to be seen? An atom exist in a realm we have been able to access. I strongly believe there is something spiritual about this world. If there is, not saying that there is, but if there is then that is a realm of its own and we lack the tools to investigate it.
About what I said before, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because supporters can not support their claim, does not mean they are wrong. Simply that they can not support their claim ❌
As for you, Sadako, there was nothing fallible about my last point, unless you think history is illogical. If I understand you correctly, you are confusing logic and science. Logic can not prove that God does not exist, it actually implore the opposite ✅
You do not know that. I want to believe that they do and there is nothing to say otherwise 😛
I wouldn't call finding something invisble to the eye and something that we had to create sophsiticated and highly advanced tech to find easier than finding a spiritual being. The only real difference I see is that with the atom, they were chasing an honest pursuit. With God, it's like trying to prove that Superman exists. A story book characters that is a figment of a certain groups imagination.
honestly, if He does exist, I don't see why he hasn't made himself known to all. Hell, in the old testament, didn't he make his prescence known to several people burning bush style. Why is it now, that when people refute Him the most, He is nowhere to be found?
If he would show himself to the world, he would destroy the essence of religion. Faith. Aside from that, if he should ever expose himself then people would still question things. How does he explain evolution? How accurate is the Bible? Why is there suffering in the world? Also, it would give people a sense of captivity, knowing for a fact that a being able to control their very whim is real. The would would rebel against his very being, rather than the idea of him. His creations would turn against him, because rather than a source of inspiration, he is a physical manifestation of authority and the fact that you are meaningless. That is the nature of man.
If someone like me knows that, then I am confident someone like him knows it a thousand times over and then some. Not that I would ever try to speak on his behalf. That is simply my thoughts on the matter.
Regarding proving him, you are preforming fallacious thinking. You are claiming an atom is more sophisticated than the supposed creator of all things. On that regard, you are fallibly assuming that he exist in our presence. He can be billion light years away. Just because he has made clouds light up, bushes burn and has spoken to us in the Bible, and just because his presence is referenced to as in heaven, does not mean it's this heaven. Could be an alternative reality, same as with Hell.
Now I am not speaking pro-Christianity per-se. I am merely defending the fact that if you want to fight the existence of God, you should do so properly rather than use fallacies.
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
If he would show himself to the world, he would destroy the essence of religion. Faith. Aside from that, if he should ever expose himself then people would still question things. How does he explain evolution? How accurate is the Bible? Why is there suffering in the world? Also, it would give people a sense of captivity, knowing for a fact that a being able to control their very whim is real. The would would rebel against his very being, rather than the idea of him. His creations would turn against him, because rather than a source of inspiration, he is a physical manifestation of authority and the fact that you are meaningless. That is the nature of man.Regarding proving him, you are preforming fallacious thinking. You are claiming an atom is more sophisticated than the supposed creator of all things. On that regard, you are fallibly assuming that he exist in our presence. He can be billion light years away. Just because he has made clouds light up, bushes burn and has spoken to us in the Bible, and just because his presence is referenced to as in heaven, does not mean it's this heaven. Could be an alternative reality, same as with Hell.
Now I am not speaking pro-Christianity per-se. I am merely defending the fact that if you want to fight the existence of God, you should do so properly rather than use fallacies.
That makes no sense to me. I finding nothing wrong with actual proof replacing Faith. At least there would proof on your side. To me, knowing that he was real would actually make people dispute the Bible and his rules less. Which actually is the point of this thread. If he made his prescence know, that would be the evidence needed to silence the non-believers. then "because he said so", would actually be a valid case outside of just a book reference.
Also, you keep referring to God as if he is unattainable in this universe and pretty much closing off any other option in your mind it would seem. Sorry if that is not your intention, it just comes off that way. it was my understanding that he is everywhere at all times, not just confined to some other dimensional paradise as you see it, so i would think that we should be able to find Him in this Dimension.
Also I find it funny how you keep referring to our posts as fallacies when your only backing is a book, yet I have not called any of your posts fallacies.
Do you really think that mankind is some form of work or responsibility for God? He created our whole being in six days, then directed us with a few words and ambassadors here and there. We are a science project at most. What will we do next? How will we behave to this and that? We are not particularly important. Not even God has implied that. In fact, he has gone against that very sentiment a great many times even in the Bible 😛
I am not Christian and I am not using any book as backing. If my posts has had me confused with someone defending God, that has not been my intention. All I am here to say is that those arguing against God has as much responsibility to not use fallacies as those arguing for God. And I am incredibly intent on making sure that logic is not confused with science ✅
Point to a single fallacy I have made during our discussion.
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
Do you really think that mankind is some form of work or responsibility for God? He created our whole being in six days, then directed us with a few words and ambassadors here and there. We are a science project at most. What will we do next? How will we behave to this and that? We are not particularly important. Not even God has implied that. In fact, he has gone against that very sentiment a great many times even in the Bible 😛I am not Christian and I am not using any book as backing. If my posts has had me confused with someone defending God, that has not been my intention. All I am here to say is that those arguing against God has as much responsibility to not use fallacies as those arguing for God. And I am incredibly intent on making sure that logic is not confused with science ✅
Point to a single fallacy I have made during our discussion.
I apologize then because I thought you were defending the God of the Bible. my bad. And it was my understanding that that was who the majority here was debating.
But in the context of the Biblical God, we are more than a science project and actually the most cherished of all creations, so i'm pretty sure ther is more interest than you're stating. It is my understanding, that He has implied that we are the most important. did he not put us above his Angels? What book were you reading?
Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by not confusing logic with science. Science is used to prove things as logically as possible. Please elaborate
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Already did. Its not automatically a virtue...I've got reasonable, earned faith that gravity works, as it can be tested at any given moment and is predictable..... Easily tested by jumping from a height.
If I hold my laptop up, at shoulder height whilst standing, and let go,
no amount of your or anyone's faith is gonna stop that crashing to a destructy demise.I have faith in that.
Feel free give your computer a similar test, if you dispute this.
Thats not faith, thats 'knowing'.
I am simply a defender of logic 😛
He cast us out of paradise for a single mistake. He inspired envy and hate in Cain. He drowned the world. He hardened the Pharao's heart so that he would not release Moses people. He made a bet with Satan on how a firm believer would react to losing everything. He let his son die without a pinch of assistance or comfort.
I am sure that humanity is important to God, but to a man that is all-being, how can we be anything more than a science project? He care for us, of course, as any parent would, but he also punish us like there is no tomorrow sometimes. We are a week of work for him, that is all we will ever be. For all we know, he is bored of us cry
And I can see how you mistook me for any form of believer. I am sorry if I have made it seem like that. Though I am wholly ready to debate in favor of God for as long as those opposing him are fallible in their arguments. I hate to see good debates go to waste because one or both sides use arguments that are fallacious 🙂
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie\
I am simply a defender of logic 😛He cast us out of paradise for a single mistake. He inspired envy and hate in Cain. He drowned the world. He hardened the Pharao's heart so that he would not release Moses people. He made a bet with Satan on how a firm believer would react to losing everything. He let his son die without a pinch of assistance or comfort.
I am sure that humanity is important to God, but to a man that is all-being, how can we be anything more than a science project? He care for us, of course, as any parent would, but he also punish us like there is no tomorrow sometimes. We are a week of work for him, that is all we will ever be. For all we know, he is bored of us cry
And I can see how you mistook me for any form of believer. I am sorry if I have made it seem like that. Though I am wholly ready to debate in favor of God for as long as those opposing him are fallible in their arguments. I hate to see good debates go to waste because one or both sides use arguments that are fallacious 🙂
First, I completely agree with you on this interpretation of the Biblical God. Have actually used examples like this when someone used the all just and all loving statement on me. lol
For your second idea, I find it an interesting one. However, I find if we are a science project, then maybe the whole Alien science experiment thing comes into play. lol
Originally posted by socool8520I am a firm supporter of Hilary Putnam's Brain in a Vat thesis. You should look it up 🙂
\First, I completely agree with you on this interpretation of the Biblical God. Have actually used examples like this when someone used the all just and all loving statement on me. lol
For your second idea, I find it an interesting one. However, I find if we are a science project, then maybe the whole Alien science experiment thing comes into play. lol
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) You assume that it is eternal.
I am not assuming God is eternal at all. God is eternal by definition. That, and whatever caused the universe had to have been eternal.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Actually it does require a creator. Unless you wanna show us in precise detail it's method of self creation. 🙂
You seem to have ignored most of mine, and also the basic point of this thread: PROOF that god exists.
Why do I need to show detail of it's self creation when it was not created by anything? God has no beginning. That means He was never creted. Not by Himself or any other thing. He is eternal.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
4) Oh, it does.
You'll need more than that to make your point valid.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
5) Science and knowledge of history contradicts a lot of the bible.
Still waiting on that proof.
I disagree. I see no where that science or history contradict the Bible at any point.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
6) Its you who is incorrect in your assuming that any argument is proof. And proof is what this thread is about.
I don't know what you mean here. If an argument is meant to show that God exists, and the argument is valid and cannot be refuted, then it is proof for God's existence.
Originally posted by socool8520
What is with this cherry picking comment? Tac, with all due respect aren't you doing the same thing? I mean you only cite like one instance where God states that he is perfect, but totally blow off any evidence, in the same book I might add, that contradicts the statement.
It doesn't contradict the statement at all. You are claiming that these actions are unjust/imperfect because you say they are.
I am not cherry picking at all. It is you who is ignoring any part of the Bible that hurts your argument while simultaneously accepting all the parts that (you think) support your argument. I'm not ignoring any part of the Bible at all. I fully accept that God destroyed cities. I also accept that God is all just.
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
Do you really think that mankind is some form of work or responsibility for God? He created our whole being in six days, then directed us with a few words and ambassadors here and there. We are a science project at most. What will we do next? How will we behave to this and that? We are not particularly important. Not even God has implied that. In fact, he has gone against that very sentiment a great many times even in the Bible 😛
I was mostly with you all up until here. What do you mean God doesn't care about us? It says time and time again that God loves all of mankind deeply. To the point where He sent His son to die for us. What Bible have you been reading? 😬
TacDavey, I have never said that he does not care for us. I am merely saying that we are nothing more than part of a week's work for him. In fact, we are a day's work for him. Now I mean no disrespect with this, it is simply my perspective of the Bible. While God has done acts of great kindness, such as creating the world, and approaching man time and again, he has also done acts of great cruelty. The type of cruelty no loving parent would.
I stand by my thesis, that we are a science project to him. That does not mean that he does not care for us, just that he is more or less mostly curious to see where it all will end, rather than see us rise up and make him proud. On the note of him loving all mankind deeply, I am sure if animals, or bushes had a Bible, they would say the same. He loves all of his creation, but that does not mean that he is not cruel.
I love my stuffed animals and shirts deeply, along with other things, but that does not mean I do not throw them away at times.
Originally posted by leonheartmmSince I am the only one that has mentioned all three . . . You talking to me? 😛
^ofcourse, you dont KNOW enough about history or science or logic to make that sort of judgement so............
Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
TacDavey, I have never said that he does not care for us. I am merely saying that we are nothing more than part of a week's work for him. In fact, we are a day's work for him. Now I mean no disrespect with this, it is simply my perspective of the Bible. While God has done acts of great kindness, such as creating the world, and approaching man time and again, he has also done acts of great cruelty. The type of cruelty no loving parent would.I stand by my thesis, that we are a science project to him. That does not mean that he does not care for us, just that he is more or less mostly curious to see where it all will end, rather than see us rise up and make him proud. On the note of him loving all mankind deeply, I am sure if animals, or bushes had a Bible, they would say the same. He loves all of his creation, but that does not mean that he is not cruel.
I love my stuffed animals and shirts deeply, along with other things, but that does not mean I do not throw them away at times.
Would you send your own child to die so you wouldn't have to throw away your stuffed animals?
God's actions may sometimes seem cruel to us, but you have to remember that He is all loving and all just. He has to punish wrong. He doesn't want us to suffer.
At any rate, I'll be absent for a few days. So don't rack up too many posts while I'm gone. 😛