Originally posted by TacDavey
No. I never said you can ask anytime. Buy then it's too late.
So, God forgives any sin in a very small window off opportunity, and only as long as you can't be sure that he actually exists.
And you say that by your moral standard that's merciful and not more akin to the Russian Roulette scene in Deer Hunter?
Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know about that. I think sending a son to die so that all the people who cursed Him, beat Him, and spit on Him could be forgiven of their sins, as well as the sins of everyone else who would be born is far more merciful that we could ever hope to be.God forgives any sin, no matter how bad. All you have to do is ask.
ok, but there are humans who see forgiveness as so important that they give it without the being asked
in fact, in my personal example, I decided forgiveness was more important than justice.
Originally posted by Bardock42
So, God forgives any sin in a very small window off opportunity, and only as long as you can't be sure that he actually exists.And you say that by your moral standard that's merciful and not more akin to the Russian Roulette scene in Deer Hunter?
No, I don't see it that way at all. If God said "Here I am, believe in me" no one would truly seek Him. They would believe/worship Him because they had to.
Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but there are humans who see forgiveness as so important that they give it without the being askedin fact, in my personal example, I decided forgiveness was more important than justice.
But God did not. Like I've said, He is all just. Placing forgiveness above justice would lead to unjust actions, which He cannot do.
I don't think I would place forgiveness above justice at all. That would just let people walk all over you. People have to be held accountable for their actions.
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I don't see it that way at all. If God said "Here I am, believe in me" no one would truly seek Him. They would believe/worship Him because they had to.
But this way, there's all this lack of evidence, nothing but faith to support God, and if you choose wrong (without knowing what wrong or right is) you get punished forever, by a person who claims to love you. That's not the meaning of mercy, justice and love as my language defines it.
Originally posted by TacDavey
But God did not. Like I've said, He is all just. Placing forgiveness above justice would lead to unjust actions, which He cannot do.I don't think I would place forgiveness above justice at all. That would just let people walk all over you. People have to be held accountable for their actions.
interesting...
so, the Bishop Desmond Tutu fought against apartheid in South Africa. He was beaten and abused by the white rulers, and represented a portion of the population that was constantly subjugated economically, physically, politically, etc. When apartheid was over, he became one of the most prominent members of the truth and reconciliation commission, dealing with victims of rape, murder, torture, and essentially genocidal policies. In the face of all this, his Christian faith brought him to the conclusion that forgiveness is the most important answer, not retribution or justice. That people must move on from their own wrong doings, and we must move on from the hatred those wrong doings have inspired in ourselves.
one of, iirc, Jefferey Dahmer's victims was from a very religious family. In court, the families of the victims had the opportunity to confront Dahmer. They swore at him, hoped he rotted in hell, screamed about justice and retribution, and there was no impact on Dahmer at all. The father from this Christian family came up to confront him, and said something akin to, "well, you have wronged me, but my faith tells me that I have to turn the other cheek, so I forgive you", to which Dahmer broke down into tears.
Jesus, on the cross, begged his father to forgive those who murdered him. He did not seek that any justice be dealt, but simply that God not hold a grudge.
By the way, the friend who stole from me later apologized, when he had dealt with his addictions and such, and we had a great relationship afterward. He never stole from me again. This outcome would have been impossible had I sought any form of justice against him.
I know I'm dipping into other religious pots here, but there is also the Buddhist concept that justice and retribution are a fault not in the person doing the wrong, but in the person who was wronged. Holding onto hate and onto the need to see another punished destroys one's self, and makes us lust for, even if modest, some form of violence. That cognition is far more devastating to one's life than are most of the evils one will experience, and even in the most serious of situation, letting go of the desire for revenge frees oneself from the burden of hate.
not that I'm questioning the obvious superior moral position of god or anything [sic], but even those who claim to follow him seem to have a better understanding of how to live a good life than he does
EDIT: forgiveness > justice [remember that next time you ask if an atheist can be moral]
Re: show me some evidence, evidence, and evidence
Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
its the equivalent of someone telling someone there is no hogwarts full of wizards & in response they start reading the dam spells 😆
And who are you to convince someone there's no hogwarts full of wizards, if they don't want to hear about it?
Why is disproving someones religious convictions so important?
I know smoking is bad for my health.. Yet I choose to smoke. If you were to repeatedly insist I shouldn't be smoking, show me statistics and evidence and proof that smoking is bad for me, and wouldn't shut up about how wrong I am to continue smoking, I'd be pretty put out about it..
Originally posted by cdtm
And who are you to convince someone there's no hogwarts full of wizards, if they don't want to hear about it?Why is disproving someones religious convictions so important?
I know smoking is bad for my health.. Yet I choose to smoke. If you were to repeatedly insist I shouldn't be smoking, show me statistics and evidence and proof that smoking is bad for me, and wouldn't shut up about how wrong I am to continue smoking, I'd be pretty put out about it..
With smoking and religion is the same thing. It's fine as long as it doesn't harm other people.
Originally posted by Bardock42
But this way, there's all this lack of evidence, nothing but faith to support God, and if you choose wrong (without knowing what wrong or right is) you get punished forever, by a person who claims to love you. That's not the meaning of mercy, justice and love as my language defines it.
I don't think that's true. I think there is plenty of evidence supporting God's existence.
Originally posted by inimalist
interesting...so, the Bishop Desmond Tutu fought against apartheid in South Africa. He was beaten and abused by the white rulers, and represented a portion of the population that was constantly subjugated economically, physically, politically, etc. When apartheid was over, he became one of the most prominent members of the truth and reconciliation commission, dealing with victims of rape, murder, torture, and essentially genocidal policies. In the face of all this, his Christian faith brought him to the conclusion that forgiveness is the most important answer, not retribution or justice. That people must move on from their own wrong doings, and we must move on from the hatred those wrong doings have inspired in ourselves.
one of, iirc, Jefferey Dahmer's victims was from a very religious family. In court, the families of the victims had the opportunity to confront Dahmer. They swore at him, hoped he rotted in hell, screamed about justice and retribution, and there was no impact on Dahmer at all. The father from this Christian family came up to confront him, and said something akin to, "well, you have wronged me, but my faith tells me that I have to turn the other cheek, so I forgive you", to which Dahmer broke down into tears.
Jesus, on the cross, begged his father to forgive those who murdered him. He did not seek that any justice be dealt, but simply that God not hold a grudge.
By the way, the friend who stole from me later apologized, when he had dealt with his addictions and such, and we had a great relationship afterward. He never stole from me again. This outcome would have been impossible had I sought any form of justice against him.
I know I'm dipping into other religious pots here, but there is also the Buddhist concept that justice and retribution are a fault not in the person doing the wrong, but in the person who was wronged. Holding onto hate and onto the need to see another punished destroys one's self, and makes us lust for, even if modest, some form of violence. That cognition is far more devastating to one's life than are most of the evils one will experience, and even in the most serious of situation, letting go of the desire for revenge frees oneself from the burden of hate.
not that I'm questioning the obvious superior moral position of god or anything [sic], but even those who claim to follow him seem to have a better understanding of how to live a good life than he does
EDIT: forgiveness > justice [remember that next time you ask if an atheist can be moral]
I think you are mixing up Justice with Revenge.
We shouldn't seek revenge, that's true. Cursing at someone and telling them to rot in hell is not justice. That's more revenge. Of course we should forgive and never seek revenge. You should not want to harm someone because they harmed you. That does NOT mean we should not stand up for justice. A world with out justice would be chaotic and destructive. Everyone would be able to do whatever they wanted to anyone they wanted to because that person should just forgive them and move on. That's not right at all.
We can reject revenge while still supporting justice. And Justice and forgiveness can still co-exist.
Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) 2.) It is still free will if someone knows what choice you will make. The simple fact that they know you are going to freely choose something does not suddenly mean it isn't free any more. If I know my friend well enough to know for certain what movie he will pick out at the store, that does not mean he didn't freely choose that movie.
Yes, but unlike your God, you do not know 100% what your friend will do. Your friend could just as easily pick out a different movie. With God, He absolutely knows what you will do. So God knows that a given person will commit evil actions such as rape or murder effectively condemning that person to Hell. Also he is allowing the suffering of other people who are victimized by said person. Where is the justice, love, and mercy in that?
Re: Re: show me some evidence, evidence, and evidence
Originally posted by cdtm
And who are you to convince someone there's no hogwarts full of wizards, if they don't want to hear about it?Why is disproving someones religious convictions so important?
I know smoking is bad for my health.. Yet I choose to smoke. If you were to repeatedly insist I shouldn't be smoking, show me statistics and evidence and proof that smoking is bad for me, and wouldn't shut up about how wrong I am to continue smoking, I'd be pretty put out about it..
True, but the religious individuals did post on the thread so..... 😕 I wouldn't go out to a smoker and keep telling him not to smoke in a smoke pit, but if said person came into my anti-smoking group to discuss smoking, I would definitely debate with him. Same thing here.
Originally posted by socool8520
Yes, but unlike your God, you do not know 100% what your friend will do. Your friend could just as easily pick out a different movie. With God, He absolutely knows what you will do. So God knows that a given person will commit evil actions such as rape or murder effectively condemning that person to Hell. Also he is allowing the suffering of other people who are victimized by said person. Where is the justice, love, and mercy in that?
The fact that God knows 100% is irrelevant. The point is, knowing what choice you will make does not, in any way, infringe on the freedom of the choice. If we went back in time and watched through a monitor as the declaration of independence was signed we would know exactly what choice everyone was going to make. Does that mean we have taken away their free will? Of course not.
And, yes, God may know someone will kill, but He respects free will and will not interfere with our freedom to choose for ourselves.
Originally posted by TacDavey
We can reject revenge while still supporting justice.
I don't believe this at all
justice is simply the revenge that society deems is acceptable to enact. All punishment is revenge, justice simply means we feel the vengeance is in proportion to the infraction. That we have a justice system doesn't change this, rather, it just institutionalizes this type of revenge and takes the onus of enacting it away from the individual, because we feel an institution that represents collective will and law is more just than individual revenge. The principle is exactly the same.
Originally posted by inimalist
I don't believe this at alljustice is simply the revenge that society deems is acceptable to enact. All punishment is revenge, justice simply means we feel the vengeance is in proportion to the infraction. That we have a justice system doesn't change this, rather, it just institutionalizes this type of revenge and takes the onus of enacting it away from the individual, because we feel an institution that represents collective will and law is more just than individual revenge. The principle is exactly the same.
I don't think I agree with that. Revenge is hurting someone because they hurt you in some way. You want to get back at them for no other reason than to satisfy yourself, be it just retribution or not.
Justice is not the same. It's a way to balance right and wrong. I can believe someone should pay the price for a crime, even if I have no ill will towards them, simply because if they didn't, crime would run rampant.
Justice is a way to combat wrong. Revenge is a way to satisfy selfish anger. Justice is based off logic. Revenge is based off emotion, and not usually the good kind.
We should get rid of revenge, not justice. Think of what would happen if we valued forgiveness to the point of rejecting justice? The world would fall apart. Any person, at any time, would be allowed to do whatever they wanted to anyone.
Do you honestly feel that that world is superior to one that values justice?
what type of evidence would change an atheists mind?
I mean Jesus is known to have existed, catholicism, and christianity in general, is based on having faith that what he said is true. Just because some devoit christians choose to close their ears to science and some people insist their must exist a dichotomy between religion and science doesn't mean we all think like that. I for one don't.
Originally posted by Trackz
what type of evidence would change an atheists mind?I mean Jesus is known to have existed, catholicism, and christianity in general, is based on having faith that what he said is true. Just because some devoit christians choose to close their ears to science and some people insist their must exist a dichotomy between religion and science doesn't mean we all think like that. I for one don't.
I don't find the evidence even for Jesus' existence amazingly compelling. There's no evidence whatsoever from contemporary sources. And very few from non-Christian ones, whose validity is definitely questionable.
Even if, at most they "prove" that someone that a man at the time existed who had some followers. Not even the crucifixion, or the healings are in any ways substantiated then. So I am not sure what even that matters.
Originally posted by inimalist
how is this different than revenge?
Because with revenge you are seeking to hurt them to make yourself feel better. With justice it's different. For one thing, you can forgive someone and still think they should pay the price for their crime. Justice isn't a selfish desire to satisfy your urge to hurt someone just because you want to hurt them. It's a system that helps protect people from being abused. We make laws to protect people and try to keep things fair. We don't make them because we are mad at criminals and want to do what we can to hurt them.
Also, you never answered my question. Would you consider a world which values forgiveness over justice a "superior" world to this one? A world where everyone can do anything they want?
Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't find the evidence even for Jesus' existence amazingly compelling. There's no evidence whatsoever from contemporary sources. And very few from non-Christian ones, whose validity is definitely questionable.Even if, at most they "prove" that someone that a man at the time existed who had some followers. Not even the crucifixion, or the healings are in any ways substantiated then. So I am not sure what even that matters.
Well, as far as I know, it's basically accepted as historical fact that a man named Jesus existed and had followers and did "miracles".
Obviously, people question whether he was really who he claimed to be, if he rose from the dead, and if he really did supernatural things. But I don't think anyone actually questions that he existed.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Because with revenge you are seeking to hurt them to make yourself feel better. With justice it's different. For one thing, you can forgive someone and still think they should pay the price for their crime. Justice isn't a selfish desire to satisfy your urge to hurt someone just because you want to hurt them. It's a system that helps protect people from being abused. We make laws to protect people and try to keep things fair. We don't make them because we are mad at criminals and want to do what we can to hurt them.Also, you never answered my question. Would you consider a world which values forgiveness over justice a "superior" world to this one? A world where everyone can do anything they want?
i still don't see the difference, and frankly, the way you described a need to see someone brought to justice is exactly the same as the need to see revenge enacted. You just think one is ok because there is some systematic way of doing it. Having a system doesn't make it no longer retributive or vengeful, just legal.
and no, but that is a matter of pragmatics versus morality. I think the world would be a more moral place if we decided to forgive those who wronged us, but some form of removal of dangerous people from society is necessary, if terrible.
EDIT: just to point out here, this is a Christian arguing against forgiveness
Originally posted by inimalist
i still don't see the difference, and frankly, the way you described a need to see someone brought to justice is exactly the same as the need to see revenge enacted. You just think one is ok because there is some systematic way of doing it. Having a system doesn't make it no longer retributive or vengeful, just legal.
It's the motivation behind the act. If someone insults me, and I respond by punching them in the face, that's revenge. I was motivated purely on anger, and did not stop to consider the rights of the individual I was inflicting pain on.
Justice does not do this. Justice sees that there is a need to punish wrong doing to protect people from being hurt or abused by someone. It is not motivated by anger, but by the desire to protect people from wrongs that people will commit if unhindered.
With revenge, you WANT to hurt people. Causing pain to another is your primary goal. That, and nothing else.
With justice, you are not inflicting pain on someone because you want to see them hurt but because it is necessary. If you don't MORE people would be hurt. Innocent people.
Originally posted by inimalist
and no, but that is a matter of pragmatics versus morality. I think the world would be a more moral place if we decided to forgive those who wronged us, but some form of removal of dangerous people from society is necessary, if terrible.
I think that allowing killers and rapists to go about killing and raping is a LESS moral world. I think, while forgiveness is good, we have a moral obligation to stop people from hurting others. And that allowing them to do so unhindered is actually less moral than stopping them.
By allowing a killer or a rapist to walk free and not doing anything about it, you are making a choice that you know full well will lead to the suffering of a lot more people. In essence, you are partially responsible for that pain and suffering.
That isn't moral. At all.
Originally posted by inimalist
[b]EDIT: just to point out here, this is a Christian arguing against forgiveness [/B]
That's not completely true. I am all for forgiveness. I am not all for allowing people to be hurt.