Originally posted by Allankles
He was powering the engines btw. And the engines were powering the Mageddon weapon which was the size of a solar system. It was a shocking feat to his peers.I used him because he was used as an example in this thread earlier. I'm not even arguing one way or the other with regards to strength and durability, I just disagreed with your generalizations and your insistence on planet busting, which would be considered a callous act by many DC heroes.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Originally posted by leonidas
but THAT is the point--i'm not sure it's fair to say that when marvel itself just doesn't use speed the way dc does. i can't see thor going to dc and suddenly getting smacked around by every speedster. or ss. or quasar. or thanos. etc..... i could be wrong, but if i am, it seems to say that speed would trump all as many have said, and make the point of debating the characters pointless in some regards. 😬
So you're talking about PIS and CIS then?
"We need to make the story good, so we'll just forget about some aspects of the characters?"
Re: Marvel speed vs DC speed
Originally posted by leonidas
so it's come up a million times in a million threads. it's my contention that the 2 companies have chosen to depict speed differently. dc seems to put a much greater importance on speed in general. it is more widely used, it is used a great deal more and in fact, via the speed force, i would say that the speed limit in dc exceeds the limit in marvel.now, because of this, there is quite a disparity in terms of speed feats and speed related characters in the 2 companies. i guess my question is this--because marvel doesn't show speed feats from characters the way dc does (in general terms, among the big characters) does that NECESSARILY mean marvel characters are slower, and unable to react to dc levels of speed? is there a point where inferrential evidence can suffice for marvel characters due to the dearth of feats? i'm not even convinced i'm phrasing this all correctly. guess what i'd like to do is start a discussion on speed in general, and more specifically how the companies depict and emphasize them, and the consequences--in the forum--for those differences.
if that makes sense. so, can marvel compete with the dc speedsters??
Originally posted by Philosophíato a degree. That's pretty much what bullet dodging is. Batman most certainly isn't faster than a bullet, but his reflexes allow him to react in time to dodge it. You don't need superspeed, just adequate reflexes.
You think having the reflexes to counter FTL character isn't a matter of the character posessing superspeed?
Originally posted by Philosophía
Because the character can't lose, dammit!If he doesn't have feats, we use " common sense or simply base an argument on perceived understanding of a character. " because we are right, and it's the DC side who's evil for asking things we can't provide!
good lord, your infatuation with me and your constant hanging on my every word is making me..... uncomfortable. be a good boy, and go hump mindset's leg for a while. or quanchi's. just let the adults talk. if more people used ignore, the forum would be a happier place. 🙂
Originally posted by marwash22Are you suggesting that speed and reflexes are two different things? Also, bullet dodging involves actual physical/muscle movement. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this example?
to a degree. That pretty much what bullet dodging is. Batman most certainly isn't faster than a bullet, but his reflexes allow him to react in time to dodge it. You don't need superspeed, just adequate reflexes.
Originally posted by leonidasIf the Marvel character(s) in question have never given us a reason (ie. feats) to assume they are on par with the DC speedsters, then there is no reason to assume they are (sans PIS/CIS, of course.)
that is certainly the logical end. what i'm saying is, if marvel, as a whole, doesn't portray characters at such speeds, and therefore equal feats do not exist, do we simply default to the assumption that said marvel characters are NECESSARILY slower?
For instance, I have never seen Thor perceive events, and react to them, on an attosecond by attosecond basis -- thus I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the Flash family is -far- faster in that regard. However, that is not to say Thor would be incapable of beating said speedster through other means. The speedsters are uber, but they aren't unbeatable.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Without this DC wouldn't work, not a bit.
But it only applies to characters like the Flashes and Superman. With Superman, at least it's more interesting because he's also built to brawl. So he'll brawl 80% of the time and when he faces an opponent that's above brawling then he turns on the speed. It's like an extra gear, a just-in-case countermeasure. So it's more like CIS with him.
With the Flashes it's PIS, because speed is all they've got.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaNo. Thanos doesn't possess superspeed. Nowhere near it. He does possess reflexes and the ability to counter superspeed if he has to. He did so against the fallen one. He has shown reflexes quick enough to stop a hammer toss which happens very quickly. We've also seen highly skilled warriors like ganymede be all over the surfer yet easily backhanded by Thanos showing he has the reflexes and the skill to deal with her.
You think having the reflexes to counter FTL character isn't a matter of the character posessing superspeed?
To me superspeed is like running up a mountain in like less than heartbeat. Thanos can't do that. But if someone with superspeed is coming at him he has the reflexes to counter.
As for the topic I think dc as a higher number of faster guys in general. Dc has multiple flashes, k-nians, black adam, prime, daxamites, etc. whereas off the top of my head marvel has gladiator, sentry, makkari, runner, quicksilver,nova, and surfer. I say surfer because he fights on his board and has proven to be able to outmaneuver nova who has superspeed.
Originally posted by Philosophíato a degree, yes!
Are you suggesting that speed and reflexes are two different things?
Obviously, if you're able to hit someone with FTL capabilities, you yourself have a degree of superspeed. But using my bullet dodging example... superspeed isn't required. Basically, you don't need to have equal speed to hit someone, that's where reflexes come into play.
Cass Cain's reflexes are better than Wally's if you take away his speed. You agree that Cass doesn't have superspeed, don't you?
Originally posted by PhilosophíaNo, but not entirely. We've seen Thanos react before to someone who vastly outclasses him in speed yet Thanos can't replicate that said character's speed.
So reflexes have nothing to do with physical speed?
So y=using your rationale do you think Thanos is as fast as the fallen one or do you think he just has the necessary reactions to deal with him ?
Originally posted by -Pr-Yeah sure thing, Batman fights along Flash in the JLA and beats beings that took down the rest of the JLA. I'm talking of the white martian storyline. Seriously if a Flash character would fight like he would here in the theoretical forum fights, events would be totally ****ed up. True Story.
facepalm
And for other examples before the Batman wanking starts, Green Arrow, Black Canary and lots of others were on the same team they're all COMPLETELY useless if Flash (without CIS/PIS) would be on the same team.
To believe that a major event with a lot of characters from different tiers works without heavy PIS/CIS is dumb to say it nicely.
Now go and facepalm yourself.
And yes DC Characters vastly > Marvel characters in speed.
That's why I think the effect on DC is much heavier
Originally posted by -Pr-
So you're talking about PIS and CIS then?"We need to make the story good, so we'll just forget about some aspects of the characters?"
nah. i had a huge debate with odg over superman/loki where i took supes. the main reason was because of his speed. not sure you get where i'm coming from. it's like comparing apples and oranges i guess, and trying to force the apple into an orange. there is a disparity--not because of the characters, but because of the way the companies portray them and always have.
perhaps you and a couple others are right. maybe we just concluse marvel cannot compete with dc speed and that's the end. it just leads to.... unproductive debates at times.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Yeah sure thing, Batman fights along Flash in the JLA and beats beings that took down the rest of the JLA. I'm talking of the white martian storyline. Seriously if a Flash character would fight like he would here in the theoretical forum fights, events would be totally ****ed up. True Story.And for other examples before the Batman wanking starts, Green Arrow, Black Canary and lots of others were on the same team they're all COMPLETELY useless if Flash (without CIS/PIS) would be on the same team.
To believe that a major event with a lot of characters from different tiers works without heavy PIS/CIS is dumb to say it nicely.
Now go and facepalm yourself.
And yes DC Characters vastly > Marvel characters in speed.
Nice of you to show your bias so openly.
Originally posted by leonidas
nah. i had a huge debate with odg over superman/loki where i took supes. the main reason was because of his speed. not sure you get where i'm coming from. it's like comparing apples and oranges i guess, and trying to force the apple into an orange. there is a disparity--not because of the characters, but because of the way the companies portray them and always have.perhaps you and a couple others are right. maybe we just concluse marvel cannot compete with dc speed and that's the end. it just leads to.... unproductive debates at times.
what do you suggest, then?