Hiemdall's a black dude?

Originally posted by Bentley
I think that Jet Li replacing T'challa would play a little against the Black Panther mythos, because him being the first black super heroe in a black continent is kind of part of the mythos.

. double post

edit nevermind.

Originally posted by basilisk
But as someone pointed out earlier, Heimdall being fair of skin was also part of the mythos as an identifying trait for him - why is one mythos any more or less important than the other?

I think it's an easy concept to grasp. Would Superman be a different character if he wasn't from space and he was a human instead? Yeah, it's a part of the mythos that defines the character. Thor is the god of thunder and war, if he suddenly became the god of books, then I would be altering the mythos in such fashion it's no longer the same. In T'challa's case, his mythos revolves around his origins, and thus, ignoring it would change its nature.

Originally posted by Deadline
No Hemidall isn't any different just because hes described that way doesn't mean he has to be restricted to that form, that applies to all gods. See my post below.

This is a really silly argument. Just because they were shown to have physical characteristics doesn't mean that they didn't transcend physical form. Norse lore has numerous examples of gods shape shifting and having magical powers, not only that the Norse people believed in reincarnation. If reincarnation isn't an example of transendence I don't know what is. Hell we even have an example of a jotun reincarnating as a human, or do you want to get into a neurotic debate about the meaning of transedence? Ok fine they didn't transcend their physical forms but theres nothing in Norse Lore that indicates that they should be restricted to being white. It's like trying to argue that Loki should never be represented as a Hyena because hes never specifically turned into one.....I hope you see were I'm going with that.

Not to mention the example you gave is absurd. It's pretty obvious that the gods were supernatural magical beings and that the apples were supernatural. So you're arguing that supernatural beings eating supernatural apples can't be black and can't transcend their physical form when the very defintion of magic and supernatural is transcendence? Right. 🤨

Stating the obvious, not to mention that gods in all cultures are actually metaphors and symbolic. Let me give you an example, Thor maybe described as being a tall strong man with red hair but he's also a god that means hes supposed to be a representation of a concept and his physical form is just a way of describing that.

If Thor can't be black then you might as well argue that Thor shouldn't have anything to do with nuclear power. Why not? Thor is the god of power. He lives in Thrudrheim (which means power home) and has a daughter called power. Well shit there were no nuclear power stations in Viking times therefore it makes no sense for a modern heathen to associate Thor with any other power source apart from fire and lightning. Hell considering that his grandmother has dark skin I could even argue that a modern interpretation could be of a black Thor. Hell I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that sometimes The Vikings associated the colour black with power.

Lets not stop there lets not associate Odin with computing. Hey no computers during the Viking Age so clearly we shouldn't do that, hell Odin is the god of wisdom and knowledge. Oh Odin is the god of poetry as well I'm not going to associate him with rapping...and I won't even dear build a shrine to Odin and have him wearing a suit. Obvoulsy no god ever wore suits in Norse lore so therefore it completely contradicts Norse Lore. Getting the point?

Obvoulsy the Norse gods were white because the Viking were white but the Norse gods being black does not contradict Norse Lore. Considering you have at least one example of a person reincarnating as a different race, reincarnation was not restricted to humans. The Finns who were a different ethic group to the Viking also influenced Norse Lore. Not to mention that the Vikings weren't xenophobic.

Were not talking about comics were talking about a religon that people practice today and even some black people (very rare). I'm merely suggesting that maybe due to the nature of the subject that you should think first before making silly, ignorant arguments even then it wouldn't be bad if you weren't so arrogant. I don't mind people having an opinion but I think you should leave obnxious behavior for the comic vs forum.

Originally posted by Bentley
I think it's an easy concept to grasp. Would Superman be a different character if he wasn't from space and he was a human instead? Yeah, it's a part of the mythos that defines the character. Thor is the god of thunder and war, if he suddenly became the god of books, then I would be altering the mythos in such fashion it's no longer the same. In T'challa's case, his mythos revolves around his origins, and thus, ignoring it would change its nature.

Jet Li playing Black Panther wouldn't change that he was king of Wakanda, a great leader and warrior of his people, current holder of the mantle and symbol of the Black Panther, user of the heart-shaped herbs etc. He would just be played by someone of Asian descent, that's all. It's not like their aren't people of Asian descent in Africa and Li could do great fight sequences - so why would it be any different than Heimdall?

Originally posted by jinzin
While I didn't mind Kingpin being played by Michael Clark Duncan I also DID NOT want too see a Wonder Woman movie where Diana was played by Beyonce.

For example I see an african american man playing bruce banner not working. I don't see an asian man playing Odin working.

But as for this thread a black hemidall wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Long as they stay true to the character.

Originally posted by basilisk
Who said anything about changing or ignoring his origins? All I suggested was that he could be played by Jet Li. They didn't change Heimdall's origins as a god of Asgard just because he was the only black guy in white Asgard - they just used a black actor for the part.

Jet Li playing Black Panther wouldn't change that he was king of Wakanda, a great leader and warrior of his people, current holder of the mantle and symbol of the Black Panther, user of the heart-shaped herbs etc. He would just be played by someone of Asian descent, that's all. It's not like their aren't people of Asian descent in Africa and Li could do great fight sequences - so why would it be any different than Heimdall?

One of the reasons why Wakanda "works" it's because it's about the most advanced nation in the world in a continent that it's otherwise sunk under poverty and war. But ever ignoring that, i Jet Li was to play T'challa, the whole country would need to be made from "asian descents", or more like, Wakanda would've to be shifted to Asia for it to work. Wakanda is an isolated nation, to think of a king who's not from the same ethnicity of his people is a very big change of concept.

A huge part of the Black Panther mythos is the Wakandan nation imo.

It's stupid to me personally. I don't like then they mess with their appearance from the comics. I don't ever want to see a white blade either. That being said I'm just glad he's a minor character because if it was Thor I wouldn't even see it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's stupid to me personally. I don't like then they mess with their appearance from the comics. I don't ever want to see a white blade either. That being said I'm just glad he's a minor character because if it was Thor I wouldn't even see it.

But what if Thanos was green? biscuits

Originally posted by Bentley
One of the reasons why Wakanda "works" it's because it's about the most advanced nation in the world in a continent that it's otherwise sunk under poverty and war. But ever ignoring that, i Jet Li was to play T'challa, the whole country would need to be made from "asian descents", or more like, Wakanda would've to be shifted to Asia for it to work. Wakanda is an isolated nation, to think of a king who's not from the same ethnicity of his people is a very big change of concept.

A huge part of the Black Panther mythos is the Wakandan nation imo.

Anyway the Phantom pulled off being a white king in an isolated and feared African warrior nation. And he's been around a lot longer than Panther.

I think Jet Li could pull it off. Especially with Jason Statham backing him up as the head of Wakandan security. I want to see this movie.

You don't want to make black characters white when they're still aren't that many black characters. Hell just because Obama became president doesn't mean we don't have any problems.

It's like BP is the only iconic black character we have and you wanna turn him white?

Originally posted by Deadline
You don't want to make black characters white when they're still aren't that many black characters. Hell just because Obama became president doesn't mean we don't have any problems.

It's like BP is the only iconic black character we have and you wanna turn him white?

I wouldn't do Cage or Blade with a white actor though, we've already had a great Blade on screen. Also Jet Li isn't exactly white, and Obama is half white.

Anyway, there is no reason why black writers can't come up with more compelling black characters to fill any perceived shortage of them (or any writers for that matter, given the creators of Black Panther, Blade, and Cage were all white dudes).

Originally posted by basilisk
I don't think the whole of Wakanda would have to be changed, no more than they felt they had to explain why one black Asgardian existed amongst the white Asgardians, or why Queen Guinevere in Merlin is a black woman, they don't really need to explain these things. Maybe there are just people of Asian descent in Wakanda just like there are many in real life Africa, and the Wakandans are more tolerant towards other races than in the comics. Or maybe he and his Indian wife Storm happened to save Wakanda during some crisis where the previous Black Panther was killed before there was an heir, and the council recognized Jet Li as a great warrior and made him the new Panther and King. Wakanda is a fantasy just as much as Asgard or Camelot are - anything can be done really.

Anyway the Phantom pulled off being a white king in an isolated and feared African warrior nation. And he's been around a lot longer than Panther.

I think Jet Li could pull it off. Especially with Jason Statham backing him up as the head of Wakandan security. I want to see this movie.

My point is that you're making it a different story, of course you can change the mythos, but by doing it you're changing the character. You just changed the politics and history of Wakanda and now instead of looking like an african nation that rules itself, you're making it look as if it was conquered long ago and had foreign leaders -very different message.

Edit: Making Heimdall black doesn't change the fact Odin is their chief, nor the foundations of Norse Mythology, while changing Panther's ethnicity changes the entire Wakandan myth, because now Wakanda doesn't rule "itself".

Originally posted by basilisk
He's not the only iconic black character - and he's not even that well known really. Most people have never heard of him. At least not until Jet Li makes him a household name!

I wouldn't do Cage or Blade with a white actor though, we've already had a great Blade on screen. Also Jet Li isn't exactly white, and Obama is half white.

Anyway, there is no reason why black writers can't come up with more compelling black characters to fill any perceived shortage of them (or any writers for that matter, given the creators of Black Panther, Blade, and Cage were all white dudes).

Wow two more! I don't know I don't really consider any of them to be iconic like Cap or Superman.

Obama half white? That's a disgusting thing to say, it's like half-baked 😱

Originally posted by Bentley
My point is that you're making it a different story, of course you can change the mythos, but by doing it you're changing the character. You just changed the politics and history of Wakanda and now instead of looking like an african nation that rules itself, you're making it look as if it was conquered long ago and had foreign leaders -very different message.

Edit: Making Heimdall black doesn't change the fact Odin is their chief, nor the foundations of Norse Mythology, while changing Panther's ethnicity changes the entire Wakandan myth, because now Wakanda doesn't rule "itself".

Originally posted by Bentley
Obama half white? That's a disgusting thing to say, it's like half-baked 😱

Originally posted by basilisk
And I don't know why you would think that a nation with a racially diverse society must have been "conquered" at some point by those other races - it might have just allowed a lot of immigration like most western countries do.

Which is precisely my point, you cannot have Wakanda to act like "western country" because Wakanda it's not a western country. The concept of "fixing" the nation so it's behind the standards of what we consider a modern nation fails to grasp the whole point of Wakanda. Wakanda is like a fantasy "alternate world", if it's not "alternate", it has no business existing.

Also, if you think nations become racially diverse without ever being conquered or invaded, you're very naive.

Originally posted by Bentley
Also, if you think nations become racially diverse without ever being conquered or invaded, you're very naive.

Which is precisely my point, you cannot have Wakanda to act like "western country" because Wakanda it's not a western country. The concept of "fixing" the nation so it's behind the standards of what we consider a modern nation fails to grasp the whole point of Wakanda. Wakanda is like a fantasy "alternate world", if it's not "alternate", it has no business existing.

When they "reimagined" Battlestar Galactica they completely changed the concept of what the Cylons were, how they originated, and their relationship with humanity. They went from a conquering alien superpower to originating as slaves. They completely changed the characters including personality, gender, and ethnicity. The whole feel of the series totally changed. But many people think that by daring to do that they came up with something far better and more successful (of course many would also disagree).

All I'm really saying is it's about opinion not right or wrong. Wakanda is barely heard of compared to Asgard, Camelot, or BG, it's no more "sacred" or above changing than any of them. You will annoy some fans and please others, but if people can come up with a more interesting and popular version then so be it. Bring on Jet Li and Jason Statham.

As I stated earlier, it's not that I think that changes cannot or shouldn't be done, what I am explaining is that race or ethnicity or history aren't neutral elements you can change in any mythos. Of course you can build a more popular Wakanda which revolves around a different background, but it wouldn't really be Wakanda anymore -only by name-. The concept of what Wakanda it's "meant to be" -I'm talking about comic, of course-, has a strong link with race and geography.

Of course, it can be argued whether I'm right or not about Wakanda, what I'm trying to make clear is that race can "matter" in a mythos, and thus you cannot justify it just like that. Heimdall being "white skinned" won't change the conceptual nature of the Norse myth, but the same change in another myth or concept would make it an entirely different thing.