Originally posted by Impediment
Yeah, I didn't ask about Luke or Yoda. Also, Vader wasn't fighting Luke when he tk'd the objects during the Bespin fight; he was standing still.Keep trying, Dodgy Dolly.
You asked where in ESB Vader was more powerful than ROTS Vader, I answered. I then gave other examples of how as a Jedi/Sith ages, they become more powerful due to training and experience. Every example I posted is a testament to this.
Anakin, ROTS: "My powers have doubled since we last met, Dooku." Nuff said.
Vader was TKing several objects at once. Observe, FF to 2:30
Yes, they are fighting. Their sabers clash and the TK is on. Vader showed stronger TK feats in ESB than he did in ROTS. Also, force choke across a star destroyer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Force choke from 5 feet away.
No? Prove me wrong.
Originally posted by ImpedimentAhaha so just because he wasn't SHOWN dueling you question it? Who cares about countering force lightning and shit? I'm talking about TK. An X Wing is much larger and weighs much more than a senate pod. And no, he did not throw the pods aside like twigs, it took a great deal of concentration.
Also, I might add, Yoda showed far more power in AOTC when dueling with Dooku. While he levitated an X-Wing in ESB, he countered Force lightning and threw aside pillars like twigs.
So, like Vader, Yoda appeared to be more powerful.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
See below:Exactly. Vader precogs where they will reappear and refocuses on that area. Problem is, against a rapid fire porter like Griffin and Rice Bowl, NC, Wraith, he has little chance of reacting quickly enough. Against an apparater? Well, as long as they apparate where he cannot see them, he has zero chance of choking them.
Live it. Learn it. Love it.
This is of course a completely different argument than before, what DDM said is not what you were arguing.
You were saying that H-P could physically dodge the force due to HG's ability to dodge bullets(though that's not really correct, she moves before the gun is fired); that the forced could be dodged as if it were a bullet.
Originally posted by RobtardAhaha no. The gun is fired, THEN she moves, all 3 times.
This is of course a completely different argument than before, what DDM said is not what you were arguing.You were saying that H-P could physically dodge the force due to HG's ability to dodge bullets(though that's not really correct, she moves before the gun is fired); that the forced could be dodged as if it were a bullet.
Originally posted by Robtard
Nice dodge and that above doesn't really matter and not worth the argument here.He-She's still not dodging the force by knocking her head sideways or flipping a bit.
Dodge how? You said she moved BEFORE the guns were fired, I was simply correcting you.
Force choke is dodged easily by someone with APPARATING ability.
Originally posted by ares834
Really? I love your argument. It's so... infromative.Especially since what I said was completley correct. Vader is 80% of Palptiane power ("now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor."😉 and that Anakin had the potential to become twice as powerful ("So his ability to to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared"😉
Really? I Love how your argument completely ignores that fact that good ol' Georgie wanted to "amp" the saber duels because Vader was a worn down shell of his former self and Luke was a barely trained Jedi.
You seem to be forgetting that while actually acknowledging that Vader was only 2/5 of his potential.
I bet you also believe that Vader would easily beat Ep-III Anakin, too. 😬
The simple fact that Ep-III Anakin could utterly rape Suit Vader should be more than enough evidence that Anakin >>>>>>> Suit Vader.
You want to talk about potential? Anakin was definitely closer to his potential before he fell. If that isn't obvious to you, you are disrespecting the series with your twisted and bias perspective to the series.
Originally posted by ares834
Really? You don't seem to understand that potential =/= power nor is
"was going to be" the same as "is". Sure Vader's power was "curbed" but that does not mean lessened merely limited.
Really? You don't seem to understand anything we've been talking about because you think our discussion boils down to that. 😐
Ladies, no need to fight, you're both pretty.
IMO, there's a difference between sabre-fighting and outright power in the Force.
EP3 Anakin and pre-burn Vader > EP4-6 Vader in a sabre duel.
But in overall mastery of the Force, EP4-6 Vader takes it. While his maximum potential (which he's likely reacted in the OT) is much lower than his younger whole self was, he's had decades to reach it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]Really? I Love how your argument completely ignores that fact that good ol' Georgie wanted to "amp" the saber duels because Vader was a worn down shell of his former self and Luke was a barely trained Jedi.
You seem to be forgetting that while actually acknowledging that Vader was only 2/5 of his potential.
Yes. But Anakin wan't near his potential either. Quotes from GL and in the movie show that Anakin hadn't yet surpassed Palpatien so he is at least less than 1/2 his full potential. However, when one takes feats into consideration he really isn't anywhere near Palpatine. Hell GL himself has stated, "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
I bet you also believe that Vader would easily beat Ep-III Anakin, too. 😬
The simple fact that Ep-III Anakin could utterly rape Suit Vader should be more than enough evidence that Anakin >>>>>>> Suit Vader.
You want to talk about potential? Anakin was definitely closer to his potential before he fell. If that isn't obvious to you, you are disrespecting the series with your twisted and bias perspective to the series.
Source that he was closer to his potential before he fell?
Really? You don't seem to understand anything we've been talking about because you think our discussion boils down to that. 😐
Originally posted by Robtard👆
Ladies, no need to fight, you're both pretty.IMO, there's a difference between sabre-fighting and outright power in the Force.
EP3 Anakin and pre-burn Vader > EP4-6 Vader in a sabre duel.
But in overall mastery of the Force, EP4-6 Vader takes it. While his maximum potential (which he's likely reacted in the OT) is much lower than his younger whole self was, he's had decades to reach it.
Originally posted by Robtard
Ladies, no need to fight, you're both pretty.IMO, there's a difference between sabre-fighting and outright power in the Force.
EP3 Anakin and pre-burn Vader > EP4-6 Vader in a sabre duel.
But in overall mastery of the Force, EP4-6 Vader takes it. While his maximum potential (which he's likely reacted in the OT) is much lower than his younger whole self was, he's had decades to reach it.
I semi-agree with this.
We cannot be certain of either direction. We can just as easily assume that pre-suit Vader was stronger in the force. His best feat, as far as using TK, would technically be helping land the ship that was crashing in Ep-III. That may be the novel only version. Still, we do not have a situation which needed pre-suit Vader to force-TK multiple objects at once.
There's no indication that Pre-suit Vader was any less capable than Ep-VI Vader, in the force. It's all speculation, really.
Since George said, himself, that he amped the saber fights for reasons I've outlined, we can clearly see that at least Anakin would defeat Suit-Vader in a saber/force combat. That should really settle the argument.
Originally posted by ares834
WHich means what exactly?
It's very obvious what "exactly" that means. 😬
Originally posted by ares834
As I pointed out speed doesn't mean much.
Except it does. Please take your bias elsewhere.
Originally posted by ares834
Palpatine vs Mace Windu is the second slowest fight in the mythos and it's between two of the top three force users.
Oh yeah? Sorry, no. It was 2 quick blows and pause. It had the second most acrobatic saber duel in the form of Palpatine bouncing around and jumping across the room. Again, it was 2 quick blows, and pauses. That's not "slow" unless you're measuring the length of the saber duel. In that case, it's one of the shortest. 🙂
Originally posted by ares834
Anyway what GL was stating was that he wanted the fights to be more acrobatic and flashy.
No, what he was stating was what I said it did. What you stated is a result, not a reason.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes. But Anakin wan't near his potential either.
You have a canon source for that because I can most directly label what you've just stated as complete shit. 🙂 If you prefer something more adult, "what you just said is completely baseless."
Sure, Anakin had not reached his potential, yet. But we do not know how close to how far away he was from reaching his potential.
And "near" is relative to the eye beholder.
Originally posted by ares834
Quotes from GL and in the movie show that Anakin hadn't yet surpassed Palpatien
Oh really? "Quotes from GL" huh? Where? 🙂
We never see Palpatine do a force crush and Palps seemed rather pleased with Vader's raging force crush.
And Anakin had not surpassed Palpatine, yet? In which way? Saber duel? That's debatable, completely. Vader is a shell of his former self. Who's to say that Palpatine could not be defeated in a straight up duel with Anakin? That's completely debatable as there is no official ruling from George. We DO know, however, that George stated that Anakin could defeat Palpatine if he hadn't gotten injured. What don't know is if he was referring to his pre-burned Mustafar form or a reference to a future point of progression. We do have an EU alternate ending in the Official Ep. III video game showing an interpretation of George's words clearly showing that the pre-burned Anakin was strong enough to defeat Palpatine, with ease. So there's one, not completely baseless, result showing the Anakin was closer to his "double" potential than Vader ever could achieve. Still, that's almost completely baseless because we do not know how much involvement George had in the alternate ending of a "potential" time-line IF Anakin wouldn't have lost the duel with Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by ares834
so he is at least less than 1/2 his full potential.
Actually, what I said. 80 of palps versus being twice as powerful as palps? That's very easy to quantify 80/200. Reduce. 8/20. Reduce: 2/5. So he was 2/5s of his full potential.
Originally posted by ares834
However, when one takes feats into consideration he really isn't anywhere near Palpatine. Hell GL himself has stated, "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
Quantify the rest of the statement and stop giving us just a bit of it:
"If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor."
There's two interpretations of that:
1. Anakin was at a level to beat the Emperor, even as pre-Suit Vader, before he got burned up on Mustafar. Meaning, "he could have beaten Palpatine if he didn't get burned up on Mustafar."
2. He would eventually grow in the force to be strong enough to beat Paplpatine in a Saber Duel.
Two is definitely true. Even in context with the rest of the statements, we don't know if 1 is true or not. The "Making of RotS" is where that comes from and the rest of the stuff he was talking about neither makes nor disproves statement 1 correct, which is why it is still debatable and still debated on various Star Wars forums.
Originally posted by ares834
Nice strawman.
That's not a strawman. That's reductio ad absurdum and/or ad hominem. Because you make claim X, I say that you'd also make claim Y. It's a combo of ad hominem and reductio ad absurdum. Strawman requires that I not have countered your point and, instead, provided a distorted version of your point and argued against that. That's not what I did, at all: I addressed you point (raped it, actually) and then I executed an ad hominem/reductio ad absurdum combo to follow up my points.
No why would I do that? For humor, obviously. You obviously take this discussions as very serious business.
Originally posted by ares834
I do believe Vader would beat Anakin but it would take all in his power to do so. And in a strictly saber battle I could see Anakin winning more often than not.
This is such a rubbish an distorted opinion of reality. It's not "Anakin winning more often than not." It's "Anakin wins 10 out of 10 times, with ease. Vader is a shell of his former self: he's slow, cumbersome, and can't even raise his arms above his head."
At least my statements come from things George Lucas has stated. 😬
Originally posted by ares834
Where does this simple fact come from?
Making of Phantom Menace. You know, the whole "amp" discussion where he talks about a newb Jedi Knight (Luke) fighting a slow cumbersome cyborg. You know, the very same thing you've already acknowledged but are ignoring when it suits (pun intended) you?
Originally posted by ares834
Source that he was closer to his potential before he fell?
Yeah, this point was addressed, already, indirectly. I'm not playing this game. 🙂
But I have a better question for you:
Source that he was further from his full potential, as Ep-III Anakin, before he became suit Vader (any iteration will time: Ep III Suit Vader, Ep IV, Ep VI, etc)?
Originally posted by ares834
Yep, I don't realize what I meant. Only you in your infinte wisdom know what I meant.
It's about time you recognize. Now we might get somewhere.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh yeah? Sorry, no. It was 2 quick blows and pause. It had the second most acrobatic saber duel in the form of Palpatine bouncing around and jumping across the room. Again, it was 2 quick blows, and pauses. That's not "slow" unless you're measuring the length of the saber duel. In that case, it's one of the shortest. 🙂
Rewatch the fight. There are certain scenes were Sidious does display some impressive some speed, but most of the fight is incredibly slow. Not Old Ben/Vader slow, but still damn slow.
No, what he was stating was what I said it did. What you stated is a result, not a reason.
No, I don't have the exact quote on me but he said that he wanted the fights to more energetic and acrobatic during the "Prime of the Jedi".
You have a canon source for that because I can most directly label what you've just stated as complete shit. 🙂 If you prefer something more adult, "what you just said is completely baseless."
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
Anakin wasn't at Palaptine's level. And since Anakin's full potential was twice as powerful as Palpatine he was nowhere near his peak yet.
That's completely debatable as there is no official ruling from George. We DO know, however, that George stated that Anakin could defeat Palpatine if he hadn't gotten injured. What don't know is if he was referring to his pre-burned Mustafar form or a reference to a future point of progression.
Once again I return to teh quote, "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
Anakin is neither, therefore he could not (yet) compete.
Really everything points to Palaptine fully being superior including Lucas referring to him as "toughest" in the ROTS Commentary, and actual dialouge from the movie. Including, "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!" and "OBI-WAN: Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin. YODA: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."
We do have an EU alternate ending in the Official Ep. III video game showing an interpretation of George's words clearly showing that the pre-burned Anakin was strong enough to defeat Palpatine, with ease. So there's one, not completely baseless, result showing the Anakin was closer to his "double" potential than Vader ever could achieve. Still, that's almost completely baseless because we do not know how much involvement George had in the alternate ending of a "potential" time-line IF Anakin wouldn't have lost the duel with Obi-Wan.
First it's not in the movie. Secondly, non-canon endings are exactly that.. non-canon. Hell in the non-canon ending of TFU (which GL was involved with) Starkiller kills Force Ghosts... And thridly it makes no sense in the context of the movies, Anakin joined the SIth to save his wife. Yet here he is shown killing his only possible chance at achiving said goal?
Actually, what I said. 80 of palps versus being twice as powerful as palps? That's very easy to quantify 80/200. Reduce. 8/20. Reduce: 2/5. So he was 2/5s of his full potential.
Vader is 80% of Palpatine. I was talking about Anakin at that part.
Quantify the rest of the statement and stop giving us just a bit of it:
"If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor."
There's two interpretations of that:1. Anakin was at a level to beat the Emperor, even as pre-Suit Vader, before he got burned up on Mustafar. Meaning, "he could have beaten Palpatine if he didn't get burned up on Mustafar."
2. He would eventually grow in the force to be strong enough to beat Paplpatine in a Saber Duel.Two is definitely true. Even in context with the rest of the statements, we don't know if 1 is true or not. The "Making of RotS" is where that comes from and the rest of the stuff he was talking about neither makes nor disproves statement 1 correct, which is why it is still debatable and still debated on various Star Wars forums.
It can't be 1 for a simple reason. It contradicts the first part of the statment.
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor."
This is such a rubbish an distorted opinion of reality. It's not "Anakin winning more often than not." It's "Anakin wins 10 out of 10 times, with ease. Vader is a shell of his former self: he's slow, cumbersome, and can't even raise his arms above his head."
Nah. Vader really isn't that slow (except for in ANH) hell Vader's speed is even greater than Windu's. Is lightsaber fights skill is more often the deciding factor. Mace Windu was slower than Palpatine and he still won, Dooku (in II) was slower than Anakin and Obi-Wan yet he still won. Will Anakin win? Most likely, but I see little evidence to believe it will be with absolute ease.
Making of Phantom Menace. You know, the whole "amp" discussion where he talks about a newb Jedi Knight (Luke) fighting a slow cumbersome cyborg. You know, the very same thing you've already acknowledged but are ignoring when it suits (pun intended) you?
I honestly don't rember this part of the quote. I only recall him stating that it was the prime of the Jedi and they used a more energized form of dueling.
Yeah, this point was addressed, already, indirectly. I'm not playing this game.
It would be nice to see a quote. 😉
Source that he was further from his full potential, as Ep-III Anakin, before he became suit Vader (any iteration will time: Ep III Suit Vader, Ep IV, Ep VI, etc)?
Why would I need evidence for something I have never stated? You asserted the claim, burden of proof is on you.
Originally posted by ares834
Rewatch the fight. There are certain scenes were Sidious does display some impressive some speed, but most of the fight is incredibly slow. Not Old Ben/Vader slow, but still damn slow.
Rewatch the fight: "It was 2 quick blows and pause. It had the second most acrobatic saber duel in the form of Palpatine bouncing around and jumping across the room. Again, it was 2 quick blows, and pauses. That's not "slow" unless you're measuring the length of the saber duel. In that case, it's one of the shortest."
Originally posted by ares834
No, I don't have the exact quote on me but he said that he wanted the fights to more energetic and acrobatic during the "Prime of the Jedi".
Nor do I but you're conveniently forgetting about the part where he mentioned a slow, cumbersome cyborg fighting a barely trained Jedi night. It is in the TPM making of. It's in the part where he gets into the fight choreography and why he did what he did.
Originally posted by ares834
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."Anakin wasn't at Palaptine's level. And since Anakin's full potential was twice as powerful as Palpatine he was nowhere near his peak yet.
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
Kindly GTFO, please. 😄
(FYI, I do not mean to literally GTFO. That's like saying, "pwned." You seem to be a forum newb, so I wanted to clarify that lest you take offense.)
Originally posted by ares834
Once again I return to teh quote, "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."Anakin is neither, therefore he could not (yet) compete.
nce again I return to the quote, "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
Originally posted by ares834
Really everything points to Palaptine fully being superior including Lucas referring to him as "toughest" in the ROTS Commentary, and actual dialouge from the movie. Including, "Darth Vader [B]will become more powerful than either of us!" and "OBI-WAN: Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin. YODA: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."[/B]
No, not "everything."
And despite being the "toughest" mace sure beat Sidious "fair and square." Or are you forgetting about that quote, conveniently? 🙂
See how you're just talking yourself in circles and not adding anything meaningful?
Originally posted by ares834
First it's not in the movie. Secondly, non-canon endings are exactly that.. non-canon. Hell in the non-canon ending of TFU (which GL was involved with) Starkiller kills Force Ghosts... And thridly it makes no sense in the context of the movies, Anakin joined the SIth to save his wife. Yet here he is shown killing his only possible chance at achiving said goal?
That's a silly apples to oranges comparison. For starters, you did not even address the possibility that a non-canon ending is the real potential ending IF Obi Wan did not succeed in stopping Anakin on Mustafar. What George has said about Anakin points that that being a very real possibility. This is why everything you stated, above, is pretty much irrelevant and unnecessary.
Originally posted by ares834
Vader is 80% of Palpatine. I was talking about Anakin at that part.Quantify the rest of the statement and stop giving us just a bit of it:
"If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor."
It can't be 1 for a simple reason. It contradicts the first part of the statment.
I have no idea what just happened, but I think it's a quote tag mishap. lol. It happens to me, sometimes, and I hate it when I do it.
Oh well...I'll just try and roll with it.
To address "it can't be 1", no, you're wrong. Those statements do not appear together and the point #1 does not contradict the second point.
Being able to beat Sidious in a duel is not the same thing as being an uber powerful Sith Lord. A large part of Sidious' success was his ability to far-see and manipulate events based on those visions. That was probably his single most important power of success.
Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Vader really isn't that slow (except for in ANH) hell Vader's speed is even greater than Windu's. Is lightsaber fights skill is more often the deciding factor. Mace Windu was slower than Palpatine and he still won, Dooku (in II) was slower than Anakin and Obi-Wan yet he still won. Will Anakin win? Most likely, but I see little evidence to believe it will be with absolute ease.
I disagree that Dooku was slower. He showed us quite clearly that he was faster. 😬
Also, if you REALLY want to get down to it, we can measure the speed of the sabers from each person. Do you want to go down that path? 🙂
As far as evidence...Luke tagged Vader and Luke was by far a very shitty duelest in ESB. So you're going claim that a far faster and more skilled version of Vader is going to somehow "lose" to Vader at any time?
Originally posted by ares834
I honestly don't rember this part of the quote. I only recall him stating that it was the prime of the Jedi and they used a more energized form of dueling.
K?
Originally posted by ares834
It would be nice to see a quote. 😉
So would I. I've already caught you inappropriately using quotes. 🙂
But, here we go:
"We'd seen old men, young boys, and characters who were half-droid, but we'd never seen a Jedi in his prime. I wanted to do that with a fight that was faster and more dynamic — and we were able to pull that off."
Check and mate. 🙂
Originally posted by ares834
Why would I need evidence for something I have never stated? You asserted the claim, burden of proof is on you.
You can pretend to never have made that statement but it is very implicit from the things you have stated. Boy, I love it when people pretend to take the logical high ground when they clearly have no logical high-ground to stand on. And, yes, I used "high ground" on purpose. 🙂
But, since I provided the quote where GL clearly talks about the shell of his former self, I've provided my evidence. You can pretend that Vader become more powerful in the force, but there's just no evidence for that beyond subjective interpretations for things Vader does with TK.
Originally posted by dadudemonTruth.
Rewatch the fight: "It was 2 quick blows and pause. It had the second most acrobatic saber duel in the form of Palpatine bouncing around and jumping across the room. Again, it was 2 quick blows, and pauses. That's not "slow" unless you're measuring the length of the saber duel. In that case, it's one of the shortest."
Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]Rewatch the fight: "It was 2 quick blows and pause. It had the second most acrobatic saber duel in the form of Palpatine bouncing around and jumping across the room. Again, it was 2 quick blows, and pauses. That's not "slow" unless you're measuring the length of the saber duel. In that case, it's one of the shortest."
Yes, and those are two of Windu's quickest attacks. Look at much of the rest of the duel, inlcuding immediatly after that. At that point Windu uses two incredibly slow swings as Palpatine does some weird flips. Really, Windu is almost always slow in that fight.
And despite being the "toughest" mace sure beat Sidious "fair and square." Or are you forgetting about that quote, conveniently? 🙂
I've never seen it said. I have only ever seen this: ""Ok, well this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber."
Anyway I think "toughest" was used in conjucture with SIth. Unfortently I don't have RotS with me right now. So i'm not sure. I'll post it if I find it.
See how you're just talking yourself in circles and not adding anything meaningful?
That's a silly apples to oranges comparison. For starters, you did not even address the possibility that a non-canon ending is the real potential ending IF Obi Wan did not succeed in stopping Anakin on Mustafar. What George has said about Anakin points that that being a very real possibility. This is why everything you stated, above, is pretty much irrelevant and unnecessary.
And my entie point was this supposed "evidence" for Anakin being able to defeat Palpatine is completley non-canon and is entirely irrelevant. I'm not denying it as a possibilty, but Palpatine owning Anakin is a possibilty as well.
I have no idea what just happened, but I think it's a quote tag mishap. lol. It happens to me, sometimes, and I hate it when I do it.
To address "it can't be 1", no, you're wrong. Those statements do not appear together and the point #1 does not contradict the second point.
Yes they do.
From the Making of RotS:
"'You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."'
Being able to beat Sidious in a duel is not the same thing as being an uber powerful Sith Lord. A large part of Sidious' success was his ability to far-see and manipulate events based on those visions. That was probably his single most important power of success.
I agree. But his power is still considerable.
Howeever, his levetating of several senatorial pods is quite likley the most impressive display of power in the movies.
I disagree that Dooku was slower. He showed us quite clearly that he was faster. 😬
Yeah just rewatced that fight. It's quite close.
As far as evidence...Luke tagged Vader and Luke was by far a very shitty duelest in ESB. So you're going claim that a far faster and more skilled version of Vader is going to somehow "lose" to Vader at any time?
Yes. I've admited that Anakin would defeat Vader in a strictly saber contest, but I definetly don't see it as an ass handing. And Luke was a prodigy.
So would I. I've already caught you inappropriately using quotes. 🙂
Where?
But, here we go:"We'd seen old men, young boys, and characters who were half-droid, but we'd never seen a Jedi in his prime. I wanted to do that with a fight that was faster and more dynamic — and we were able to pull that off."
Check and mate. 🙂
Ah ok. I have never seen this one before. The one I thought you were refferring to was entirely different. Anyway, I really am unsure what this does? It proves that Anakin could beat Vader in a ligtsaber fight sure, but it doesn't mean it's complete pwnage. I mean I've already agreed with that...
Anyway the funny thing is almost all of those terms can be applied to prequal characters. The "old men" are almost alway the most powerful (Sidious, Dooku, and Yoda) and the "half-droid" (Greivous) is the single most fastest and energized fighter in the movies.
You can pretend to never have made that statement but it is very implicit from the things you have stated. Boy, I love it when people pretend to take the logical high ground when they clearly have no logical high-ground to stand on. And, yes, I used "high ground" on purpose. 🙂
Of course I implied it, however I never stated it. Becasue I know it's an argument that can't be made. We don't know how far Anakin went along his path to full potential.
But, since I provided the quote where GL clearly talks about the shell of his former self, I've provided my evidence. You can pretend that Vader become more powerful in the force, but there's just no evidence for that beyond subjective interpretations for things Vader does with TK.
GL simply says he wasn't in his prime right now. Not he is a "shell of his former self". And force featwise.... Vader>Anakin. It's hardly subjective when Anakin's force feats are basically non-exsistant.