Darth traya vs yoda

Started by RagingBoner13 pages

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really considering that the things said about Nihilus don't directly contradict the laws of the universe. So, no. 😐

The guy obviously just didn't know what the f*ck he was talking about.

I'm afraid such double standards shan't be tolerated and I accept your concession.

edit: If you wish to carry on, you'll need to prove how what Empatajayos Brand said "directly contradicts the laws of the universe." Until then, you're free to languish along with Nihilus, Mark, and Soranus in the shadow of His Imperial Majesty's superiority.

You said it yourself. Jedi cannot retain consciousness while one with the Force except with a certain technique. Therefore they cannot consiously work to hold His Imperial Majesty back. QED.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You said it yourself. Jedi cannot retain consciousness while one with the Force except with a certain technique. Therefore they cannot consiously work to hold His Imperial Majesty back. QED.

😐

😂 😂 😂

"Luke…Palpatine will die with me. He will never return. The Force—and all the Jedi who went before us... will make sure of that. Goodbye, my friend."

You
You said it yourself
Me
I'm pretty sure all Jedi become "one with the Force" when they die; they vanish into the energy field and literally become part of it.

"The Force—and all the Jedi who went before us..."

Spoiler:
Seeing the connection there?

😂

Spoiler:
The Jedi Knights who came before Masters Brand and Skywalker became part of the Force in one aspect or another, which is why Brand mentions the energy field first. There's no reference to "only Jedi who retain their consciousness" keeping the Emperor's spirit in limbo. If the Force is keeping Palpatine trapped, then by definition, so too would the Jedi who died before him. QED? 😂 😂 😂

The qualifier 'And' seperates the Force and the jedi, suggesting that the Jedi are working seperately against it at the same time. If not then I hardly see why you would think of that as a point in Palpatines favor, as the Jedi aren't seperatable from the Force at all and thus really have no part in the effort at all. They couldn't even be said to exist anymore, just as my dinner when digested could not be said to exist. Its all the Force.

Also I really dont like it when people laugh at me. I'm serious here. Cut it the **** out.

Originally posted by Nephthys The qualifier 'And' seperates the Force and the jedi, suggesting that the Jedi are working seperately against it at the same time. If not then I hardly see why you would think of that as a point in Palpatines favor, as the Jedi aren't seperatable from the Force at all and thus really have no part in the effort at all. They couldn't even be said to exist anymore, just as my dinner when digested could not be said to exist. Its all the Force.

lulwutno

Fear not my child, I shall explain:

The qualifier is simply being used to specify a component, a piece, a fraction, a part (the Jedi) of the overall Force (capital 'F'😉 working against His Imperial Majesty. The Jedi who died before them will be working within the Force -- because they are part of it -- against the Emperor.

Simple, like you. Easy, like your mom. Perfect, like me.

"and all the jedi who went before is" is probably to include the jedi who retained their separate identity, instead of mentioning them all one by one. So RB is not necessarily wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The qualifier 'And' seperates the Force and the jedi, suggesting that the Jedi are working seperately against it at the same time. If not then I hardly see why you would think of that as a point in Palpatines favor, as the Jedi aren't seperatable from the Force at all and thus really have no part in the effort at all. They couldn't even be said to exist anymore, just as my dinner when digested could not be said to exist. Its all the Force.

Also I really dont like it when people laugh at me. I'm serious here. Cut it the **** out.

Or this, I guess

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"and all the jedi who went before is" is probably to include the jedi who retained their separate identity, instead of mentioning them all one by one. So RB is not necessarily wrong.

Perhaps.

Did you dare say "necessarily"?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Did you dare say "necessarily"?

Ummm... no? ❌

EDIT: I quoted the wrong person up there. I meant to quote RB. How embarrassing lol

lulwutno

Fear not my child, I shall explain:

The qualifier is simply being used to specify a component, a piece, a fraction, a part (the Jedi) of the overall Force (capital 'F'😉 working against His Imperial Majesty. The Jedi who died before them will be working within the Force -- because they are part of it -- against the Emperor.

Simple, like you. Easy, like your mom. Perfect, like me.

Except they are not working at all given that they lack the individuality required to do so. They are inseperable from the Force itself and without Agency. They are one with the Force.

Meaning that they are not actively working against him. If they had retained individuality then it could be argued that the quote showed that all of the Jedi working in unison were required to hold him back. As it is its refering to the jedi merely as a part of the Force. The Force is holding him back, not the collective might of 10,000 years worth of Jedi. Its the difference between 1 person holding you back to millions doing so. So the feat is decidedly Not Impressive.

"and all the jedi who went before is" is probably to include the jedi who retained their separate identity, instead of mentioning them all one by one. So RB is not necessarily wrong.

Well then it wouldn't be 'all the jedi who went before us', would it? It would be '3 old dudes and a puppet'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well then it wouldn't be 'all the jedi who went before us', would it? It would be '3 old dudes and a puppet'.

No because the force would be including every single jedi who did not retain their identity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except they are not working at all given that they lack the individuality required to do so. They are inseperable from the Force itself and without Agency. They are one with the Force.

Meaning that they are not actively working against him. If they had retained individuality then it could be argued that the quote showed that all of the Jedi working in unison were required to hold him back. As it is its refering to the jedi merely as a part of the Force. The Force is holding him back, not the collective might of 10,000 years worth of Jedi. Its the difference between 1 person holding you back to millions doing so. So the feat is decidedly Not Impressive.

It would still be impressive. The power it took to hold Palpatine. It's like all the jedi share one brain which= The will of the force

We're not on the same page here, but I'm going to try to clear it up with the help of The Essential Guide to the Force and The Jedi Path.

When a Jedi "retains his or her identity" upon death, what is meant is that they possess the ability to interact with the physical world. For Jedi who are unable to do so, they instantaneously "journey into the Netherworld" (The Jedi Path, page 158) and "join the totality of the Force" as a "release from their physical forms" (The Essential Guide to the Force, page 85). Force-spirits like Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun retain their identity in the physical world, whereas the others are unable to do so.

So when Empatajayos Brand says that the Force and all the Jedi who came before himself and Luke will ensure that the Emperor's spirit doesn't return from the netherworld of the Force, they are referring quite literally to all Jedi. Simply because they cannot interact with the physical world doesn't preclude the notion that they exist in some form or another in the Force itself, as luminous beings. And because they JOIN the totality of the Force, the way that a soldier would JOIN the totality of the military or a drunken schmuck might JOIN the totality of a fraternity, the statement still stands.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It would still be impressive. The power it took to hold Palpatine. It's like all the jedi share one brain which= The will of the force

Correct.
If we apply the same standard Soranus attempted to apply to the resurrection of Mark A. Ragnos, the sheer amount of energy used to trap the Emperor's spirit in limbo reaffirms the strength of the entity whose defeat at Endor diffused the dark side (Return of the Jedi novelization) and brought balance to the Force, which was the ultimate point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well then it wouldn't be 'all the jedi who went before us', would it? It would be '3 old dudes and a puppet'.

There are a lot of Jedi who retained their identities.

I will return to ravish you all in the morning but I'll sum up that theres a difference between Superman holding a guy back and 10 millin people holding a guy back. Superman can do it easily and with his pinky, whereas the presence of 10 million means that you would need 10 million, otherwise less could do it. Surfice to say, theres nothing suggestig that the Force needed to bring much to bear to hold him.

Interesting that you regard the Force, an omnipresent, omnipotent energy field and that unique element which makes Darth Nihilus and Mark A. Ragnos so powerful and important, as nothing special.

Spoiler:
Just in case you're not following, it's even more impressive if it's the Force itself and not the collective might of the dead Jedi. And if the Force didn't need to, why would it? You failed Your HighnessMoron, I am a Jedibadass, like my fatherGideon before me.

None of what you just said in any way argues against what I said. Baka.

Edit: 'Nothing special?' I compared it to Superman! How much more special can you get that freakin Superman!

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of what you just said in any way argues against what I said. Baka.

Edit: 'Nothing special?' I compared it to Superman! How much more special can you get that freakin Superman!

Supez is gay dawg lul

Anyway, what was said was that "the Force -- and all the Jedi who came before [them]" would keep Palpatine's spirit from returning to the physical world. I see no reason why they would use that much force (pun intended) if it wasn't required.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
No, it doesn't. Drafting an epistle doesn't make one a scholar, it makes one a writer. When we see evidence of Mark masterminding something like this, I'll be impressed.

The importance of and existence of Ragnos' epistle is inherent in the definition:

e·pis·tle   
[ih-pis-uhl]
–noun
1.
a letter, especially a formal or didactic one; written communication.
2.
( usually initial capital letter ) one of the apostolic letters in the new testament.
3.
( often initial capital letter ) an extract, usually from one of the Epistles of the New Testament, forming part of the Eucharistic service in certain churches.

The fact that Ragnos is a forefather of almost all Sith we see living in the entire saga, that his crowning written work is known not as the tablet or holocron or scroll of Ragnos, but the epistle; that instructional and perhaps biblical text left behind as part of his legacy is indicative that he has left something in his wake of note. The fact that he is shown having created the sceptre, his sword, his gauntlets, etc... artifacts shown explicitly to be created for and by himself, that he had some mastery of sith alchemy and sorcery, which is itself implicit in being an ancient Sith Lord.

Your idea that he bought this shit at Sith-Mart and that he wasn't as learned as Sidious because apparently being reigning king in a Sith Golden Age is like being an idiot in the Renaissance just smacks of foolishness.

Smiley face.

Specifically what, though? And to what extent? Where are the sources, quotes, and feats that testify to Mark's undeniable scholarly brilliance in the ways of the Force?

See above. Marka Ragnos is never canonically shown as being alive, and what little EU canon we have only shows fragments of his existence, with much of his power and prestige being implied through numerous behaviors and words of Sith who carried on his life's work. Keep in mind it was Marka Ragnos, no other Sith Lord, who determined that the Sith line continue.

Sidious, on the otherhand, enjoys a higher profile because he is a movie character and thus has a large wealth of EU material about his apparent history, his training, his life, his mentor, etc. Until Drew K or Tom Veitch writes Marka Ragnos: Diary of a Wimpy Sith, you will not get a source which offers similar amounts of material.

"Once he gained control of the Sith Empire, he maintained dominance by pitting his detractors against one another, manipulating them into challenging him, or simply assassinating them." -- The Dark Side Sourcebook, page 69.

Fighting his rivals was only one of the ways that Mark maintained his dominance, Soranus. We have no idea how often he indulged in one-on-one combat to cement his superiority.

The fact that none ever ambushed him, killed him in fair or unfair combat is a testament to his strength and ability. The fact that numerous Sith did not rally against him tells much. Even in death, Sadow and Kressh bow before him in submission. Not respect. The Sith do not heed the words of harmless ghosts. They feared him.

Are you trying to say he's just lucky? Weak but clever at setting up fights? For a hundred years? People showed fear and submission because they were afraid that his ghost might... you know, do something underhanded that didn't involve direct Force power?

Roflcopter.

It's not baseless, given the above source. He relied on assassination and manipulation as well. If you don't like it, take it up with the source.

The difference is, Ragnos' strength is implicit in how everyone reacts to him. His name is synonymous with the Sith Golden Age, where he ruled unrivaled for a century amidst powerful Force users. Even in death, they show fear and submission. His relics, left in the hands of relative weaklings, absorbed the powers from dark Force nexuses and nearly brought him back to life. He was powerful enough to cow Exar Kun, Ulic and Freedan Nadd. Kreia speaks explicitly of his strength in the Force. "Frightening", she adds, a woman who has known Revan, Nihilus, the Exile and Sion. A woman who knew Exar Kun.

Ragnos is not cited as "The most powerful Sith of his era. (Launch into rant about how he united the Sith and made universal health care.) All nods to his strength point specifically to strength in the Force, strength in the Dark Side, absolute authority and no equals. This is a far cry from being a politician who got Force pushed over a chair, or burned his face on his own lightning. Or killed himself with his own Force Storm.

It's not bad, in the same way that Palpatine's political brilliance isn't bad. But you seem to be under the impression that Mark was entering the fray left and right, kicking ass and taking names like some sort of Sith!Dwayne Johnson, which isn't supported by the source material.

The guy doesn't have to fight every day or every year. The point is made - he was without equals. It's inherent in the source materials. I don't see the need to argue this. Palpatine was not peerless when it came to combat. He was wise in the Dark Side, yes. Moreso than anyone else in his era, yes. But he had very little in the way of competition. Except for Maul, his dumb pet, and Plageus whom he perhaps killed outside of combat, Sidious is never pitted against a Sith Lord with training from a young age. Even Dooku only had a decade or so of scraps which Sidious deigned to feed him. How can you argue him as universally peerless when he's never been put to the test?

wut?
There are other Force-using sects out there than just Mark's Sith empire. Palpatine made an effort to study all of them. Point unmooted.

Nope, not really. You cited technological differences, which ARE moot. Ragnos was not technologically well behind the Republic. His entire era and even that of the KotOR era is well behind the Galactic Empire in terms of military strength, numbers, and technological progress. There's no point in arguing this, because it's apples and oranges.

As for Sidious studying every dark side cult, I don't see how this substantiates anything. The Sith learned from Dark Jedi and from exposure to the Infinite Empire. In the ongoing series, the Sith are always credited with the most horrific and impacting abilities and powers throughout. Killing entire planets, causing stars to go nova, Force storms, etc. All these abilities come from ancient Sith teachings, not Random Dark Side Group X.

Gee, why would he make such a scepter if he could do that shit on his own? By your reckoning, Palpatine can obliterate planets singlehandedly because he commissioned the construction of the Death Star.

When Sidious fuels a Death Star with his own Force power, this will become relevant. Kreia tells us that the Force drain is an ancient Sith technique. KotOR campaign guide confirms this and notes that she learned much of it on Malachor V. Marka Ragnos imbues a sceptre with this ability... no one else does. Sadow doesn't, Kun doesn't, Nadd doesn't, Bane doesn't, etc. He could have made it to add to his power or to completely eliminate opponents without straining himself. He could have made it for the express purpose to continually increase his power or as a measure to resurrect himself or his allies at will. He could have made it to shoot fireballs into the air while drunk and it had an unintended side effect of doing Force Nom.

Let's shave this argument with the Razor:

1. Ragnos is the only Sith Lord directly linked to an artifact which drains the Force that is basically hand-held. (The Dark Reaper was a superweapon expressly created to destroy an enemy army. Mace notes it would "end the Republic", again a nod to the ancient Sith).

2. Kreia and the KotOR Campaign guide note that the ancient Sith knew the technique of severing and draining the Force. We have points to indicate that between the Dark Reaper, Kun's ritual (which he did not fully understand), and the Sceptre of Ragnos, it's reasonable to assume any Sith Lord wishing to maintain power must understand this ability or be destroyed by those who exercised it.

3. Ragnos was king without question. His sceptre, itself a symbol of his right to rule, was imbued with the ability to drain Force power and give it to others, or even apparently resurrect Sith ghosts. Asserting that he "could not do this on his own" is folly; he knew enough to imbue it into an item, the likes of which was apparently not re-created.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions how Palpatine expended great effort and resource to collect Force knowledge across the galaxy, a luxury that Mark didn't share.

So who is more steeped in ancient Roman lore? The Roman Emperor over the course of a lifetime, or the Roman enthusiast who searches world libraries and internets for knowledge of the past well after the fact, while living a double life as a politician and a Sith Lord?

How is this extra knowledge substantiated? Is this going to end up being that idea that Sidious completely and totally learned knowledge from millions of planets in his lifetime? Did he get the high score in every MMO in that time too?

Eh? According to Luke, reanimating dead cells (to resurrect a body) requires a "high enough concentration of Force energy" (26:39). Not because Mark is some sort of cosmic Sith badass.

I just watched it. He says "may be possible". He's not sure. And it's not a Jedi ritual nor is it a Jedi artifact. The truth is Luke doesn't know for sure. But the list of places he's rattling off earlier, after they find out it's Ragnos, is considerable. Tavion and her cult specifically targeted multiple dark Force nexuses to gain enough Force power to attempt to revive him.

In any case, Luke is uncertain of just how powerful Ragnos is, meaning he is not really learned in his opponent. I'd argue that he's speculating, not lecturing here.

But then, it took the effort of every Jedi "who came before [Luke Skywalker]" to keep Palpatine's spirit trapped in limbo, so would you consider that a measure of great power?

This is kind of amusing, actually. One Jedi barred Palpatine's return to the mortal world, and the Jedi collective as a whole agreed to restrain him.

Erm... I guess the entire Jedi that came before Ragnos' return couldn't prevent him from coming back, huh? Either that or the Harry Potter wand he picked up at Sith-Mart was strong enough to slip past them!

Fancy that.

S
The fact that Ragnos is a forefather of almost all Sith we see living in the entire saga, that his crowning written work is known not as the tablet or holocron or scroll of Ragnos, but the epistle; that instructional and perhaps biblical text left behind as part of his legacy is indicative that he has left something in his wake of note. The fact that he is shown having created the sceptre, his sword, his gauntlets, etc... artifacts shown explicitly to be created for and by himself, that he had some mastery of sith alchemy and sorcery, which is itself implicit in being an ancient Sith Lord.

I find it interesting that you take the word "epistle" and construct an elaborate and entertaining explanation steeped in conjecture and try to pass it off as fact. You haven't the foggiest idea as to what was contained within the Epistle. It could have been a set of blueprints for one's very own Dark Reaper knock-off, available at your local Sith R Us. Or it could have been some amusing Sith parables about the very first Dark Lord of the Sith. Until you can remotely prove that what was written proves that Mark was an incredibly learned Sith Master, I'm not interested.

S
Your idea that he bought this shit at Sith-Mart and that he wasn't as learned as Sidious because apparently being reigning king in a Sith Golden Age is like being an idiot in the Renaissance just smacks of foolishness.

Smiley face.

My idea is that you aren't a canon source. You provide a Wookieepedia article on the Epistle of Marka Ragnos and transform it into some sort of epic creation on par or in excess of the Emperor's Dark Side Compendium. Basically, my idea (and deepest prayer) is that you're joking.

S
See above. Marka Ragnos is never canonically shown as being alive, and what little EU canon we have only shows fragments of his existence, with much of his power and prestige being implied through numerous behaviors and words of Sith who carried on his life's work. Keep in mind it was Marka Ragnos, no other Sith Lord, who determined that the Sith line continue.

And teasing aside, no one denies that Mark was both powerful and important to the perpetuation of the Sith order. But the notion that he is the undisputed master of the dark side in the mythos is as baseless as it is comical. You take the handful of evidence at your disposal versus the mountain range of mine and apparently see something distorted.

S
Sidious, on the otherhand, enjoys a higher profile because he is a movie character and thus has a large wealth of EU material about his apparent history, his training, his life, his mentor, etc. Until Drew K or Tom Veitch writes Marka Ragnos: Diary of a Wimpy Sith, you will not get a source which offers similar amounts of material.

I'm uninterested in an explanation as to why Mark isn't featured as heavily in the EU, because the answer is obvious: He's not as important to the story and very few people care about him. While that may be sad and disappointing, the fact remains that if you wish to elevate him to the status you'd like, you need to use what sources you have to do it. Otherwise, it comes off like he's the bestest and strongestest because, well, you say so.

S
The fact that none ever ambushed him, killed him in fair or unfair combat is a testament to his strength and ability. The fact that numerous Sith did not rally against him tells much.

What? That's like saying that no coup against Palpatine was ever successful was testament to his fighting skills. And it's a silly argument. The text clearly indicates that Mark relied on manipulation and assassination to maintain his rule in addition to his great strength.

S
Even in death, Sadow and Kressh bow before him in submission. Not respect. The Sith do not heed the words of harmless ghosts. They feared him.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news,

"Following the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles in 6900 BBY, the Sith Empire had become a Force-using magocracy led by a cabal of Sith Lords and a single, reigning Dark Lord. Ruled by militarism and a reverence for the dead, Sith society existed in a state of perpetual conflict as Sith Lords raised private armies in their efforts to unseat the reigning Dark Lord." -- The Essential Atlas, page 127.

So in addition to revering the dead, Sith Lords also utilized private armies to stage their coups. Sounds like it was a lot more than simple single combat that allowed Mark to reign supreme. Or are you seriously going to contend that he went through and slaughtered armies singlehandedly?

S.
Are you trying to say he's just lucky? Weak but clever at setting up fights? For a hundred years? People showed fear and submission because they were afraid that his ghost might... you know, do something underhanded that didn't involve direct Force power?

Roflcopter.

Again, no one denies Mark's power like you always did with Sidious. But I can read and what I read says that Mark relied on more than just brute force to get his way.

S
The difference is, Ragnos' strength is implicit in how everyone reacts to him.

😐

Difference?

😂

I realize that you hate this, but Palpatine's strength in the Force is sufficient to terrify and permanently cow Count Dooku, who is regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history and an even greater Lord of the Sith (ROTS novelization). Palpatine's strength is enough that, when felt through the Force, chills Yoda (Labyrinth of Evil). His strength in the Force is what shatters Yoda's morale during their battle in the Rotunda, convincing him that victory is impossible (ROTS novelization). His strength is sufficient to terrify Darth Vader, whose Force potential/Force connection is the greatest in galactic history. His strength is referred to as "vast" by the woman who would marry Luke Skywalker (the Essential Guide to the Force). His strength in the Force is enough to amaze Galen "I can TK Star Destroyers and kill Rancors with Force lightning" Marek (TFU novelization).

What difference is there?

S
His name is synonymous with the Sith Golden Age, where he ruled unrivaled for a century amidst powerful Force users. Even in death, they show fear and submission. His relics, left in the hands of relative weaklings, absorbed the powers from dark Force nexuses and nearly brought him back to life. He was powerful enough to cow Exar Kun, Ulic and Freedan Nadd. Kreia speaks explicitly of his strength in the Force. "Frightening", she adds, a woman who has known Revan, Nihilus, the Exile and Sion. A woman who knew Exar Kun.

Good for his relics and his aptitude for manipulation. Kreia also refers to Revan as "the heart of the Force," so I guess he's stronger than either Mark or Palpatine?

S
Ragnos is not cited as "The most powerful Sith of his era. (Launch into rant about how he united the Sith and made universal health care.) All nods to his strength point specifically to strength in the Force, strength in the Dark Side, absolute authority and no equals. This is a far cry from being a politician who got Force pushed over a chair, or burned his face on his own lightning. Or killed himself with his own Force Storm.

😂

If by that you mean: A far cry from being a politician who seized control of the galaxy (unlike Mark), ruled it for twenty years (unlike Mark), scoured said galaxy for Force artifacts and knowledge (unlike Mark), was capable of Force-draining billions singlehandedly (unlike Mark), was capable of conjuring Force Storms capable of "killing worlds" (unlike Mark), whose death diffused the dark side (unlike Mark), balanced the Force (unlike Mark), and whose powers are testified to in various canon sources (unlike Mark), then we're in agreement.

I think that's what you meant.