Darth traya vs yoda

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The guy doesn't have to fight every day or every year. The point is made - he was without equals. It's inherent in the source materials. I don't see the need to argue this. Palpatine was not peerless when it came to combat. He was wise in the Dark Side, yes. Moreso than anyone else in his era, yes. But he had very little in the way of competition. Except for Maul, his dumb pet, and Plageus whom he perhaps killed outside of combat, Sidious is never pitted against a Sith Lord with training from a young age. Even Dooku only had a decade or so of scraps which Sidious deigned to feed him. How can you argue him as universally peerless when he's never been put to the test?

😂 😂 😂

Yes, and Darth Krayt is said to possess powers that "far outstrip any Sith from his era" (Insider #113), so I guess he's Mark's equal? Simply because Mark wasn't necessarily equaled or surpassed in his era doesn't necessarily make him more powerful than Palpatine.

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As for Sidious studying every dark side cult, I don't see how this substantiates anything. The Sith learned from Dark Jedi and from exposure to the Infinite Empire. In the ongoing series, the Sith are always credited with the most horrific and impacting abilities and powers throughout. Killing entire planets, causing stars to go nova, Force storms, etc. All these abilities come from ancient Sith teachings*, not Random Dark Side Group X.

*And technology.

Off the top of my head: The Aing-Tii possessed the ability to teleport objects; the Whills possessed knowledge of transcending deaths without metaphysical anchor; the Witches of Dathomir were capable of conjuring objects from thin air; the Force Wielders of Mortis were capable of transmogrification; the Fallanassi could make objects invisible.

Not all techniques of worth derive from Sith teachings.

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When Sidious fuels a Death Star with his own Force power, this will become relevant.

Where is it said that Mark did so with his scepter?

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Kreia tells us that the Force drain is an ancient Sith technique. KotOR campaign guide confirms this and notes that she learned much of it on Malachor V. Marka Ragnos imbues a sceptre with this ability... no one else does. Sadow doesn't, Kun doesn't, Nadd doesn't, Bane doesn't, etc. He could have made it to add to his power or to completely eliminate opponents without straining himself. He could have made it for the express purpose to continually increase his power or as a measure to resurrect himself or his allies at will. He could have made it to shoot fireballs into the air while drunk and it had an unintended side effect of doing Force Nom.

So because other Sith Lords didn't do it, they couldn't? Interesting. I'm not sure you want to argue this, given Mark's limited showings, but feel free.

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So who is more steeped in ancient Roman lore? The Roman Emperor over the course of a lifetime, or the Roman enthusiast who searches world libraries and internets for knowledge of the past well after the fact, while living a double life as a politician and a Sith Lord?

How is this extra knowledge substantiated? Is this going to end up being that idea that Sidious completely and totally learned knowledge from millions of planets in his lifetime? Did he get the high score in every MMO in that time too?

It simply means that Palpatine studied "the Force in all its guises" (The Dark Empire Sourcebook) throughout his lifetime and Mark has not been established to do so.

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I just watched it. He says "may be possible". He's not sure. And it's not a Jedi ritual nor is it a Jedi artifact. The truth is Luke doesn't know for sure. But the list of places he's rattling off earlier, after they find out it's Ragnos, is considerable. Tavion and her cult specifically targeted multiple dark Force nexuses to gain enough Force power to attempt to revive him.

In any case, Luke is uncertain of just how powerful Ragnos is, meaning he is not really learned in his opponent. I'd argue that he's speculating, not lecturing here.

😂

Interesting how you seem to change your tune about Luke's knowledge and assessment of Mark in light of new evidence.

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This is kind of amusing, actually. One Jedi barred Palpatine's return to the mortal world, and the Jedi collective as a whole agreed to restrain him.

If you don't like the text, Soranus, you can throw out the source entirely, as usualtake it up with the source.

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Erm... I guess the entire Jedi that came before Ragnos' return couldn't prevent him from coming back, huh? Either that or the Harry Potter wand he picked up at Sith-Mart was strong enough to slip past them!

Or because Ragnos's spirit was anchored to Korriban and... wasn't quite the threat Palpatine was. I know, hard to believe, given that some Sith lady once said his power was "frightening." Maybe the various authors and writers at LFL are simply too scared to provide further clues to his unimaginable power?

Yes, that's probably it.

😂

Interesting how you seem to change your tune about Luke's knowledge and assessment of Mark in light of new evidence.

Interesting how you seem to think that forming an opinion based on evidence is somehow humorous.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Interesting how you seem to think that forming an opinion based on evidence is somehow humorous.

Spoiler:
Interesting, coming from the guy who can't offer me a source for Nihilus's status as a dark side nexus and concludes that the guy is the most cosmically influential character in the mythos despite his awe-inspiring six mentions in The Essential Guide to the Force. You'd think the whole damn book would be all about him.

😂

edit: By the way, what was humorous about it, my sweet, is that Soranus seemed to have no problem agreeing with an argument that referenced Luke's assessment of the reborn Mark when it suited his argument.

I find it interesting that you take the word "epistle" and construct an elaborate and entertaining explanation steeped in conjecture and try to pass it off as fact. You haven't the foggiest idea as to what was contained within the Epistle. It could have been a set of blueprints for one's very own Dark Reaper knock-off, available at your local Sith R Us. Or it could have been some amusing Sith parables about the very first Dark Lord of the Sith. Until you can remotely prove that what was written proves that Mark was an incredibly learned Sith Master, I'm not interested.

So basically, you're telling me that because the exact contents of this epistle aren't stackable against Sidious' more visible compendium, it must be of lesser value?

My idea is that you aren't a canon source. You provide a Wookieepedia article on the Epistle of Marka Ragnos and transform it into some sort of epic creation on par or in excess of the Emperor's Dark Side Compendium. Basically, my idea (and deepest prayer) is that you're joking.

Celeste Morne was lauded for having destroyed the last copy. This implies they were numerous and given the clear definition of the word - instructional and in two of the three definitions, biblical - important to Sith culture and Dark Siders in general. If it was completely useless, like some sort of Sith cookbook, I'm sure the Jedi Council wouldn't give a rat's ass about simply locking it up instead of destroying it.

You abuse the Razor when it suits you. The epistle isn't stackable against Sidious' compendium, therefore it's inferior. I've not argued the exact placement of the epistle; I've simply indicated that it is important and given the definition used, most likely meant to be considered his scholarly achievement. You attempted to argue that because Korriban wasn't up to its ears in his works that he must have been some sort of Sith highschool drop-out.

And teasing aside, no one denies that Mark was both powerful and important to the perpetuation of the Sith order. But the notion that he is the undisputed master of the dark side in the mythos is as baseless as it is comical. You take the handful of evidence at your disposal versus the mountain range of mine and apparently see something distorted.

I guess I'm not clear on some things then. If Sidious is the undisputed master of the Dark Side and above all, why is he asking for advance of ancient Sith spirits on Korriban? Ragnos dies and he reappears at key points in early Sith History, guiding the right of succession. Sidious is dying and he comes to the feet of the ancient Sith in their dark tombs on Korriban and beseeches them for help.

Clearly, I am wrong in thinking Sidious > Ancient Sith in general.

I'm uninterested in an explanation as to why Mark isn't featured as heavily in the EU, because the answer is obvious: He's not as important to the story and very few people care about him. While that may be sad and disappointing, the fact remains that if you wish to elevate him to the status you'd like, you need to use what sources you have to do it. Otherwise, it comes off like he's the bestest and strongestest because, well, you say so.

Again, missing the point. Your argument stems from less from lack of available evidence so much as dismissing what little evidence is found. Because every SW guide is movie-centric and wraps itself around Sidious' glory like a remora doesn't mean he's suddenly more powerful than everyone that came before him. His knowledge base comes from the ancients. His showings have bounced all over the place. In the PT, he's nearly defeated twice by Jedi who have not fought Sith in a thousand years. In the OT, he's casually picked up by a crippled man and chucked into a chasm. Come DE and yes, he's suddenly very powerful. But who is he stacked up against? Luke "I taught myself" Skywalker? How many real Sith did Sidious fight in combat in the series? Oh wait, none. Sparring with Maul the pet dog doesn't count.

If Ragnos had several visible battles, and he nearly lost some, I might be more inclined to chalk up his reputation as "hype" or "respect" (even though the concept of respect is laughable among Sith. Sadow murdered his own mentor, as did Nadd and Kun) but the point is we have no evidence of him being defeated in a society of Dark Side sorcerers! As they show in the Sith philosophy on Korriban, the strongest rule. They take any opportunity to kill their elders and take their places. It's canonically listed as a Sith trait throughout, even originating from the original species. Ragnos ruled without equal for a century. It was the "Sith Golden Age". After this, the empire was fractured, seeminly destroyed. But remnants of its knowledge made later Dark Siders very powerful indeed. The idea that ancient Sith leaders could be push-overs is not plausible given the context.

What? That's like saying that no coup against Palpatine was ever successful was testament to his fighting skills. And it's a silly argument. The text clearly indicates that Mark relied on manipulation and assassination to maintain his rule in addition to his great strength.

Palpatine was surrounded by a police state, not a state of Sith Lords aspiring to higher ranks. Imperial officers show complete fear and subordination to higher ranks because they are not so far removed from Republic soldiers and officials. Sidious himself took care not to surround himself with any powerful Sith he could not best or outmanipulate, with Vader being somewhat of an exception. He did not line his halls with mighty Sith sorcerers who themselves were lords in their own right. He acquired power unscrupulously from the start in a relatively benign republic and shifted it in wartime to a militant empire.

Not the same thing.

Secondly, Marka Ragnos used manipulation and assassination to kill his opponents, yes. He also challenged them. Simus is living proof that you do not **** with Ragnos. He let the guy live and serve on the council as a reminder of how powerful he really was. If you want to tell me that this substantiates him being a push-over, you need to prove up. All this shows is he employed ruthless tactics to stabilize an inherently dangerous society for an incredible amount of time.

(More coming. Damn these character limits)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news,

"Following the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles in 6900 BBY, the Sith Empire had become a Force-using magocracy led by a cabal of Sith Lords and a single, reigning Dark Lord. Ruled by militarism and a reverence for the dead, Sith society existed in a state of perpetual conflict as Sith Lords raised private armies in their efforts to unseat the reigning Dark Lord." -- The Essential Atlas, page 127.

So in addition to revering the dead, Sith Lords also utilized private armies to stage their coups. Sounds like it was a lot more than simple single combat that allowed Mark to reign supreme. Or are you seriously going to contend that he went through and slaughtered armies singlehandedly?

^ See above.

Kressh shows visible fear at Ragnos' appearance, but then assumes that Ragnos is there to "crush" Sadow. They honestly believe that his very spirit has the power to destroy them. Also, "all the powers of the Dark Side" demand that Ragnos speaks. He is the very conduit of darkness here, set to prevent the Sith from falling apart in the power vacuum which came about after his death.

Does that look like simple respect to you?

Additionally, Sith Lords having armies and waging war is not new information. Sidious had armies and waged war. Revan did. Kun did. You can see here that fights among Sith Lords was also decided in single combat as well as via army skirmishes and other unhanded methods.

So either you're arguing that Ragnos was a military genius who managed to save his own ass with Sun Tzu for a century, or you're simply bringing up another facet of his badassery, your choice.

^ Across the galaxy, Odan-Urr feels the Force "tremble" as Ragnos reappears in spirit form. I guess he's just a push-over.

I realize that you hate this, but Palpatine's strength in the Force is sufficient to terrify and permanently cow Count Dooku, who is regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history and an even greater Lord of the Sith (ROTS novelization).

This doesn't substantiate Sidious as being anything but higher than Dooku.

Palpatine's strength is enough that, when felt through the Force, chills Yoda (Labyrinth of Evil).

See above. Ragnos' passing and reappearance makes Odan-Urr across the galaxy feel the very Force tremor. ALL of the powers of the Dark Side speak through him. His very spirit makes Sith Lords bow in fear; Sith Lords who cannot show fear before their own subordinates or they would be killed.

His strength in the Force is what shatters Yoda's morale during their battle in the Rotunda, convincing him that victory is impossible (ROTS novelization). His strength is sufficient to terrify Darth Vader, whose Force potential/Force connection is the greatest in galactic history.

If you really want to roll with this though, Anakin had potential greater than Sidious, but never realized it. With this kind of logic, Anakin could beat every Sith Lord in history. But not Obi-Wan

His strength is referred to as "vast" by the woman who would marry Luke Skywalker (the Essential Guide to the Force). His strength in the Force is enough to amaze Galen "I can TK Star Destroyers and kill Rancors with Force lightning" Marek (TFU novelization).

See above. Jedi and Sith alike shit themselves with Ragnos' ghost appears. I'm sure in person he was awe-inspiring and terrifying. Sadow notes everyone obeyed him. But I guess they did that because he was such an uber dejarik player and gangster boss, right?

Good for his relics and his aptitude for manipulation. Kreia also refers to Revan as "the heart of the Force," so I guess he's stronger than either Mark or Palpatine?

Kreia notes that looking at Revan is like looking into the Heart of the Force. He's noted in both games as being brimming with raw power, more than Malak, the Exile, or just about anyone else. He's obviously up there.

If by that you mean: A far cry from being a politician who seized control of the galaxy (unlike Mark), ruled it for twenty years (unlike Mark),

Gee, Ragnos didn't get elected senator after blackmailing the previous senator and then having agents instigate a war already brewing so that he could push the Republic into a war from which it would cry for a dictator. What a poor Sith warrior! Ragnos would never make it in the White House.

scoured said galaxy for Force artifacts and knowledge (unlike Mark),

was capable of Force-draining billions singlehandedly (unlike Mark),

Sidious did it slowly, with help from his dark side goonies, using ancient Sith techniques. Ragnos' beat down cane was capable of blowing the roof out of a cavern, resurrecting the dead, hiding a Sith alchemic blade and sucking the Force out of Dark Side nexuses. The only thing it was missing is a bottle opener. I don't see your point.

was capable of conjuring Force Storms capable of "killing worlds" (unlike Mark),

Darth Rivan found the Darkstaff, which was an ancient Sith relic that did the same thing. I don't see your point. Just because Ragnos didn't verifiably destroy any planets or armades you know, when he was dead in the comics doesn't exclude the possiblity that he knew the ability or had some trinket that could do it. Sadow, his subordinate, had a ship which could use the Force to make stars go nova. You really think Ragnos was incapable of this by extension?

whose death diffused the dark side (unlike Mark),

See above. The Dark Side considers Ragnos to be its personal spokesman. Sidious groveled before the ancient Sith and perhaps Ragnos by extention looking for a way to extend his life. Ragnos > Sidious when it comes to being the Dark Side's favorite.

balanced the Force (unlike Mark),

What is this nonsense?

and whose powers are testified to in various canon sources (unlike Mark), then we're in agreement.

So KotOR, TotJ, GAotS etc are not canon? Glad we're in the EU section.

Yes, and Darth Krayt is said to possess powers that "far outstrip any Sith from his era" (Insider #113), so I guess he's Mark's equal? Simply because Mark wasn't necessarily equaled or surpassed in his era doesn't necessarily make him more powerful than Palpatine.

My god, this might be the closest I've seen you come to a logically objective statement. Let me mark down the occasion.

No, you're right - it by itself does not prove this; context does. Ragnos was the biggest baddest shark in a sea full of sharks; Sidious was the biggest baddest shark in a pool that would be lucky to have a pirana or two in it.

Off the top of my head: The Aing-Tii possessed the ability to teleport objects; the Whills possessed knowledge of transcending deaths without metaphysical anchor; the Witches of Dathomir were capable of conjuring objects from thin air; the Force Wielders of Mortis were capable of transmogrification; the Fallanassi could make objects invisible.

Not all techniques of worth derive from Sith teachings.

No, but which of the above methods can you substantiate Sidious knowing? More importantly, what techniques did Sidious learn abroad that are decisive and that an ancient Sith Lord or another Dark Side user could not possibly know or counter?

Where is it said that Mark did so with his scepter?

The sceptre is a Force artifact. The Death Star is not. I thought the analogy was pretty obvious. Sorry, I'll use pictures next time.

So because other Sith Lords didn't do it, they couldn't? Interesting. I'm not sure you want to argue this, given Mark's limited showings, but feel free.

The point being, no other Sith has shown the ability to imbue an artifact with Force draining ability. It may be an indication of his standing. Do you have anything to add to that?

It simply means that Palpatine studied "the Force in all its guises" (The Dark Empire Sourcebook) throughout his lifetime and Mark has not been established to do so.

I studied philosophy, but no such class existed back when Socrates was alive because they didn't have community colleges. Should we argue that I know everything about philosophy and Socrates is a moron who I would destroy in a debate?

Interesting how you seem to change your tune about Luke's knowledge and assessment of Mark in light of new evidence.

Actually, I haven't played JA's story mode in about five years. I didn't realize how ignorant Luke sounded. He's afraid, sure, but he doesn't seem to know much about reviving the dead.

If you don't like the text, Soranus, you can throw out the source entirely, as usualtake it up with the source.

Or because Ragnos's spirit was anchored to Korriban and... wasn't quite the threat Palpatine was. I know, hard to believe, given that some Sith lady once said his power was "frightening." Maybe the various authors and writers at LFL are simply too scared to provide further clues to his unimaginable power?

Yes, that's probably it.

It's telling that you haven't read the comics, Gideon. Ragnos appears on Cinnagar in the Second Duel in the Iron Citadel. He is not shackled to just Korriban. Ragnos' spirit chiefly appears when the Sith ways are threatened, and no Jedi ghosts or army has ever held him back. I was drawing the distinct comparison that you failed to address - Sidious is containable, Ragnos just shows up when invoked, and was nearly resurrected, only failing because the body he inhabited died before he could be truly reborn.

Therefore, I rule.

Smiley face

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So basically, you're telling me that because the exact contents of this epistle aren't stackable against Sidious' more visible compendium, it must be of lesser value?

I'm telling you that you've provided no reason for us to conclude that Mark was a notable Sith scholar, let alone on par with Palpatine.

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Celeste Morne was lauded for having destroyed the last copy. This implies they were numerous and given the clear definition of the word - instructional and in two of the three definitions, biblical - important to Sith culture and Dark Siders in general. If it was completely useless, like some sort of Sith cookbook, I'm sure the Jedi Council wouldn't give a rat's ass about simply locking it up instead of destroying it.

No one is saying that the Epistle wasn't important to the Sith. Given their canon reverence for the dead and much-testified respect for Mark, it wouldn't surprise me that they valued anything written by him.

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You abuse the Razor when it suits you. The epistle isn't stackable against Sidious' compendium, therefore it's inferior. I've not argued the exact placement of the epistle; I've simply indicated that it is important and given the definition used, most likely meant to be considered his scholarly achievement. You attempted to argue that because Korriban wasn't up to its ears in his works that he must have been some sort of Sith highschool drop-out.

No, because there's a vast expanse between Sith high school drop out and Palpatine. Mark doesn't have to be an ignorant buffoon to not be on Palpatine's level as a Sith scholar.

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I guess I'm not clear on some things then. If Sidious is the undisputed master of the Dark Side and above all, why is he asking for advance of ancient Sith spirits on Korriban? Ragnos dies and he reappears at key points in early Sith History, guiding the right of succession. Sidious is dying and he comes to the feet of the ancient Sith in their dark tombs on Korriban and beseeches them for help.

Clearly, I am wrong in thinking Sidious > Ancient Sith in general.

These are different situations. Mark seemed largely content with his spiritual existence, more concerned with the perpetuation of the Sith. In contrast, Palpatine was not content with spiritual existence, more concerned with the perpetuation of his life. Simply because Palpatine, in desperation, seeks out the advice from the ancient Sith spirits does not mean that his knowledge of the Force is lesser than theirs. Or do you not believe that experts in a given field will never turn to other experts?

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Again, missing the point. Your argument stems from less from lack of available evidence so much as dismissing what little evidence is found. Because every SW guide is movie-centric and wraps itself around Sidious' glory like a remora doesn't mean he's suddenly more powerful than everyone that came before him. His knowledge base comes from the ancients. His showings have bounced all over the place. In the PT, he's nearly defeated twice by Jedi who have not fought Sith in a thousand years. In the OT, he's casually picked up by a crippled man and chucked into a chasm. Come DE and yes, he's suddenly very powerful. But who is he stacked up against? Luke "I taught myself" Skywalker? How many real Sith did Sidious fight in combat in the series? Oh wait, none. Sparring with Maul the pet dog doesn't count.

Nor does it mean that because there weren't other Sith around that he is lesser than the ancients.

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The idea that ancient Sith leaders could be push-overs is not plausible given the context.

Who said they're pushovers? I simply said that there's no reason to believe Mark is more powerful than Palpatine.

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Kressh shows visible fear at Ragnos' appearance, but then assumes that Ragnos is there to "crush" Sadow. They honestly believe that his very spirit has the power to destroy them.

Given their canonical reverence for the dead, I'm not surprised.

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Also, "all the powers of the Dark Side" demand that Ragnos speaks. He is the very conduit of darkness here, set to prevent the Sith from falling apart in the power vacuum which came about after his death.

Me, earlier
And teasing aside, no one denies that Mark was both powerful and important to the perpetuation of the Sith order.

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So either you're arguing that Ragnos was a military genius who managed to save his own ass with Sun Tzu for a century, or you're simply bringing up another facet of his badassery, your choice.

I'm arguing that in addition to being a powerful Sith Lord, he was adept at manipulation and deceitful tactics to maintain his rule. As I said earlier, you're the one under the impression he was some sort of Sith Navy SEAL ending all conflicts with the pointy end of his magnificent Sith sword. The text does not reflect that.

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Oh, so if Dooku's supporting Sidious' bid for power, he's suddenly one of the most powerful Jedi in history, without question,

Dooku was always one of the most powerful Jedi in history.

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but when he's fighting Mace he's a chump.

Where was that said, again?

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The Jedi of Dooku's era had not even seen the Sith in a millenia. Dooku himself was ignorant of Sith ways by his own admission and that of Sidious,

I'd like the source and full quote, if you don't mind.

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being kept in the dark so he could not gain any real power, so naturally Dooku was terrified of Sidious both because of his power and because of his superior knowledge.

Indeed, it most telling that the man who has no fear of throwing himself at Yoda is absolutely terrified to face Darth Sidious even via hologram.

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This doesn't substantiate Sidious as being anything but higher than Dooku.

Which is quite impressive, given his status as one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in history and an even stronger Lord of the Sith.

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See above. Ragnos' passing and reappearance makes Odan-Urr across the galaxy feel the very Force tremor.

Me, earlier
And teasing aside, no one denies that Mark was both powerful and important to the perpetuation of the Sith order.

Spoiler:
Palpatine's death "diffused" the dark side entirely and brought balance to the Force. I'd say that's a little more impressive than creating an epic!disturbance in the Force.

S
ALL of the powers of the Dark Side speak through him.

*Forces, not powers. It could very well mean all of the other dead Sith.

S
His very spirit makes Sith Lords bow in fear; Sith Lords who cannot show fear before their own subordinates or they would be killed.

Me, earlier
Given their canonical reverence for the dead, I'm not surprised.

S
Anakin's potential is never realized, and his potential is never ever stacked up against anyone who isn't in the movies, so the ide athat he's > all has yet to be proven.

Anakin's potential is confirmed to be the highest in recorded history, I'll fetch you the quote and source ASAP.

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If you really want to roll with this though, Anakin had potential greater than Sidious, but never realized it. With this kind of logic, Anakin could beat every Sith Lord in history. But not Obi-Wan

No, the point is that a man with the greatest connection to the Force/midichlorian count ever is thoroughly cowed by Palpatine's power.

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See above. Jedi and Sith alike shit themselves with Ragnos' ghost appears. I'm sure in person he was awe-inspiring and terrifying. Sadow notes everyone obeyed him. But I guess they did that because he was such an uber dejarik player and gangster boss, right?

It's absolutely possible. I mean, didn't people "shit themselves" when in Tarkin's presence? Or Thrawn's? What about General Grievous, who was more feared than Dooku himself? Does that mean that they were unstoppable badasses in a fight?

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Kreia notes that looking at Revan is like looking into the Heart of the Force. He's noted in both games as being brimming with raw power, more than Malak, the Exile, or just about anyone else. He's obviously up there.

If we take Kreia's observations as the gospel, sure. But, then, I've got countless quotes similar for Palpatine. So if we can just agree to a single standard, it might make this discussion easier.

The point I was trying to make was that "the heart of the Force" sounds more impressive than "terrifying," so is Revan equal to or greater than Mark?

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Gee, Ragnos didn't get elected senator after blackmailing the previous senator and then having agents instigate a war already brewing so that he could push the Republic into a war from which it would cry for a dictator. What a poor Sith warrior! Ragnos would never make it in the White House.

It was a comical rebuttal for trying to downplay Palpatine. Suffice it to say that Palpatine has had more of a direct impact on the galaxy and has achieved more than Mark, who's probably green with envy.

S
Sorry, you can't substantiate exactly what knowledge he gained where and how it impacts his dueling ability. If you conclude that the epistle is useless because you can't read its contents, I must insist that you substantiate this with sources.

Me
So if we can just agree to a single standard, it might make this discussion easier.

S
Sidious did it slowly,

For established reasons.

S
with help from his dark side goonies,

With help? Source and quote, please.

S
using ancient Sith techniques.

Which Mark has not been shown to know or possess or demonstrate.

S
Ragnos' beat down cane was capable of blowing the roof out of a cavern,

Palpatine could decimate starfleets and tear the surfaces off worlds. Color me unimpressed with Mark's toys.

S
resurrecting the dead,

*Potentially reanimate dead cells.

S
hiding a Sith alchemic blade

lulwaitwut?

Palpatine's statues and robes hid a lightsaber in front of the Jedi Council for years. Guess his wardrobe is uber-l33t now?

S
and sucking the Force out of Dark Side nexuses.

Good for his scepter.

S
The only thing it was missing is a bottle opener. I don't see your point.

Spoiler:
That it was Mark's toy and not Mark himself who was doing it. The notion that he could do it all by his lonesome is just as ridiculous as Palpatine being able to blow up planets because the Death Star could. Simply because it was a Force-based creation doesn't mean Mark could have done that shit on his own. Feel me, nugga?

S
Rofl.

Darth Rivan found the Darkstaff, which was an ancient Sith relic that did the same thing. I don't see your point.

Quote and source, please.

Me
Good for his scepteranother ancient Sith artifact.

]quote]S
The Dark Side considers Ragnos to be its personal spokesman.*[/quote]

*At the time of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, well before Palpatine's birth.

S
Sidious groveled before the ancient Sith

Me
Or do you not believe that experts in a given field will never turn to other experts?

S
and PERHAPS Ragnos by extention looking for a way to extend his life.

👆

S
Ragnos > Sidious when it comes to being the Dark Side's favorite.

😐

Spoiler:
Palpatine has been proclaimed a living dark side nexus, whose powers blunted Jedi sensitivity on a galactic scale, whose death balances the Force and "diffuses the dark side." Mark was the chairman of the Sith Afterlife Committee on Future Sith Affairs millennia before the Emperor's birth. But, hey, if you say so.

S
What is this nonsense?

Anakin fulfills the prophecy of the Chosen One by destroying Darth Sidious, whose death restores balance to the Force.

S
So KotOR, TotJ, GAotS etc are not canon? Glad we're in the EU section.

I'm still waiting for these demonstrations of epic power on behalf of Mark.

My god, this might be the closest I've seen you come to a logically objective statement. Let me mark down the occasion.

S
No, you're right - it by itself does not prove this; context does. Ragnos was the biggest baddest shark in a sea full of sharks; Sidious was the biggest baddest shark in a pool that would be lucky to have a pirana or two in it.

So Dooku's a piranha now? You must really like Mark if you're referring to the good Count as a virtual nobody.

S
No, but which of the above methods can you substantiate Sidious knowing? More importantly, what techniques did Sidious learn abroad that are decisive and that an ancient Sith Lord or another Dark Side user could not possibly know or counter?

Well, given that Mark hasn't been established to be a Sith scholar by any source, I'm guessing quite a bit.

S
the sceptre is a Force artifact. The Death Star is not. I thought the analogy was pretty obvious. Sorry, I'll use pictures next time.

Excellent; pictures are perty. While you're at it, could you find a picture of a canon source showing Mark filling the scepter with his own power and not creating it through a potent Sith ritual that draws on power that wouldn't normally be available to him?

S
The point being, no other Sith has shown the ability to imbue an artifact with Force draining ability. It may be an indication of his standing. Do you have anything to add to that?

Well, no other Sith has been shown to do many of the things Palpatine did without aid, so that could be an indication of Palpatine's standing. See how it works?

S
I studied philosophy, but no such class existed back when Socrates was alive because they didn't have community colleges. Should we argue that I know everything about philosophy and Socrates is a moron who I would destroy in a debate?

Given that Socrates has never been established to know everything about philosophy, given that such fields expand over the years, I'd say it's certainly possible. I'm not sure if you know this, but even though some things are lost to the abyss that is time, other things grow more developed. Which is why the U.S. army, as you say, would effortlessly annihilate the Roman Empire.

S
Actually, I haven't played JA's story mode in about five years. I didn't realize how ignorant Luke sounded. He's afraid, sure, but he doesn't seem to know much about reviving the dead.

Accepted, then.

S
It's telling that you haven't read the comics, Gideon. Ragnos appears on Cinnagar in the Second Duel in the Iron Citadel. He is not shackled to just Korriban. Ragnos' spirit chiefly appears when the Sith ways are threatened, and no Jedi ghosts or army has ever held him back. I was drawing the distinct comparison that you failed to address - Sidious is containable, Ragnos just shows up when invoked, and was nearly resurrected, only failing because the body he inhabited died before he could be truly reborn.

Therefore, I rule.

Smiley face

I'll get you the quote and source for ancient Sith spirits, including Mark's, being anchored.

The bigger point, of course, is that Mark wasn't regarded as the threat that Palpatine's was. Palpatine's spirit needed to be contained by the Force to defeat him. All that was done to stop Mark was defeat the body he possessed to send him b1tching and moaning back to the depths of his tomb.

But I guess Jaden Korr disdainfully sealing Mark's tomb is a greater indication of power than the Force and countless dead Jedi keeping Palpatine from returning, right? 😉

Wait: Janus, if the Count is a nobody,why are you arguing that he could beat Mace?

Originally posted by truejedi
Wait: Janus, if the Count is a nobody,why are you arguing that he could beat Mace?

TJ, seizing on the scraps with his little chihuahua teeth.

RB, I will finish you in Mortal Kombat this afternoon because I don't have the time to photoshop Ragnos beating Sidious before I leave for a few hours.

Back to TJ - you're reading too fast, or with broken spectacles. What I said was:

Oh, so if Dooku's supporting Sidious' bid for power, he's suddenly one of the most powerful Jedi in history, without question, but when he's fighting Mace he's a chump.

Note the sarcasm. Smiley face.

Dooku is considered proficient and prodigal in his own time. The idea that he's more powerful than millennia of Jedi who proceeded him sounds unlikely. His highest Force and saber demonstrations, while sound within the context of the movies, makes him look like an amateur compared to EU personas who can Force-TK AT-ATs, ISDs, nom planets, etc.

I like the guy, and I think he's a good duelist in the PT era, but I don't see him as being the best ever. It seems contrived that his greatness is only brought up when it benefits RB's wrinkled old lover hero but discarded at any other time. I mean, did anyone canonically call Mace Windu one of the "Most powerful Jedi of all time"? Should I take this statement as proven fact (without a source) and say Dooku > everyone but Yoda? Of course not.

Also, Ragnos takes over Sidious' body. QED. I win.

Dooku was called one of the greatest jedi ever in omniscient text iirc.

S
TJ, seizing on the scraps with his little chihuahua teeth.

You really don't like it when people disagree with or question you, do you? 😐

S
RB, I will finish you in Mortal Kombat this afternoon

[Anakin]You will try![/Anakin]

S
because I don't have the time to photoshop Ragnos beating Sidious before I leave for a few hours.

Maybe if you spent as much time constructing your arguments as you do on pr0n and photoshop, you might have a chance of winning.

S
Dooku is considered proficient and prodigal in his own time.

From the ROTS novelization, hardback edition, page 47:

"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith[...]"

"He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history,"

S
The idea that he's more powerful than millennia of Jedi who proceeded him sounds unlikely

haermm

S
I like the guy, and I think

We couldn't tell.

S
he's a good duelist in the PT era, but I don't see him as being the best ever.

Not the, but definitely one of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku was called one of the greatest jedi ever in omniscient text iirc.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, Ragnos takes over Sidious' body. QED. I win.

Or Palpatine takes control of Ragnos's consciousness and touches him in spiritually inappropriate places.

Lucien
Which omniscient text?

The quote I believe N. is referring to is from the ROTS novelization, the quote and page number provided above.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which omniscient text?

From the ROTS novelization, hardback edition, page 47:

"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith[...]"

"He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history,"

😉

I totally found that myself btw.

Didn't Nai make a case that it was a limited third-person narration?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Didn't Nai make a case that it was a limited third-person narration?

Most, if not all of the novels are. But two things to remember here: (1) The passage I cited comes from one of the several moments throughout the ROTS novelization wherein the omniscient narrator introduces a given character: This is Anakin Skywalker:, This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:, This is General Grievous:, etc.; (2) George Lucas personally line-edited the ROTS novelization and, as per Matthew Stover, whatever's in the book is what Lucas wanted there.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
TJ, seizing on the scraps with his little chihuahua teeth.

RB, I will finish you in Mortal Kombat this afternoon because I don't have the time to photoshop Ragnos beating Sidious before I leave for a few hours.

Back to TJ - you're reading too fast, or with broken spectacles. What I said was:

Note the sarcasm. Smiley face.

Dooku is considered proficient and prodigal in his own time. The idea that he's more powerful than millennia of Jedi who proceeded him sounds unlikely. His highest Force and saber demonstrations, while sound within the context of the movies, makes him look like an amateur compared to EU personas who can Force-TK AT-ATs, ISDs, nom planets, etc.

I like the guy, and I think he's a good duelist in the PT era, but I don't see him as being the best ever. It seems contrived that his greatness is only brought up when it benefits RB's wrinkled old lover hero but discarded at any other time. I mean, did anyone canonically call Mace Windu one of the "Most powerful Jedi of all time"? Should I take this statement as proven fact (without a source) and say Dooku > everyone but Yoda? Of course not.

okay great, you are withdrawing him as better than windu then? i suppose? Especially considering the EU showings of mace windu?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk

Dooku's greatness isn't discarded, he just simply isn't as good as mace...

It's not like we are saying Dooku loses to Traya or some chump like that.... it's Mace we are talking about.

3:00 minutes is best.

TJ, with addendum by RB
Dooku's greatness isn't discarded, he just simply isn't as good as mace and certainly not Palpatine, who terrified the good Count and made him his b1tch.

👆