Makashi versus Vaapad

I'm a little surprised at how Mace is given such a solid advantage over Dooku by most patrons of this sub-forum and I'd like to make a place to discuss both styles against one another.

Some points I'd like to see addressed:

1. Makashi is the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" according to Cin Drallig, a noted master of many forms.
It's explicitly listed as the dominant saber form when Jedi and Sith fought, only becoming obsolete when the Sith were no longer a common threat mainly because it excelled at defeating other duelists.

2. Nowhere is Vaapad noted explicitly for being good at fighting other lightsaber duelists. Its main strength is channeling inner darkness and allowing the Force to make you appear erratic and fast. The argument that Vaapad > Makashi is never resolved by those who very quickly say Mace > Dooku.

Thoughts? Insights? Rants? Quite frankly, I'd love to see some actual reasoning behind some of these arguments.

The reason Mace gets the props over Dooku is because Mace created Vapaad, he knows every move in it.

That, and against darksiders Vapaad is the most epic form imaginable.

Its been a while since I read my copy of Shatterpoint, im lending it to a friend anyways so itll be a bit til I can read it again

Fairly certain we assume Mace is better because he beat Sidious whom Dooku was terrified of.

If only Rampant Ox were here. 😛

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
If only Rampant Ox were here. 😛

What would he say?

The argument that Vaapad > Makashi is never resolved by those who very quickly say Mace > Dooku.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Maybe because most people anymore are less interested in the style used than the combatant using it.

Right on! For instance, Yoda, with his Ataru (of which this particular style traditionally has several holes in) made Dooku the great lighsaber master, with his Makashi (the supposed "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat"😉, look like an amateurish imp at times in their duel on Geonosis.

-Pwned

The reason Mace gets the props over Dooku is because Mace created Vapaad, he knows every move in it.

This isn't a valid justification though. If I knew Noob Fu better than anyone because I created it from scratch in my mom's basement, this does not make me automatically better than the black belt next door.

That, and against darksiders Vapaad is the most epic form imaginable.

Okay, so you may be close to making an argument here. What characteristics of Vaapad can be argued to make or break this duel? What if we make it a Jedi using Makashi, for example Jedi Master Dooku? Does he automatically have a better chance because he's not a dark sider? Let's substantiate this.

Its been a while since I read my copy of Shatterpoint, im lending it to a friend anyways so itll be a bit til I can read it again

I read the Clone Wars novels mostly early to mid last year, so I need to refresh as well. I may dig them out and go over them again here shortly, but I do remember Shatterpoint well; nothing about it really indicates its proficiency against saber users, just that it helps Mace Windu compensate for his weakness and his straddling of the dark side. However, I do recall that Dark Rendezvous indicates Dooku is ahead, even if slightly. Yoda notes him as the prodigal student, head and shoulders above the rest, and Mace himself does not contradict Yoda. Add to that the fact that Dooku, iirc, has beaten Mace before, and I think he stands a better chance here.

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-truejedi

Fairly certain we assume Mace is better because he beat Sidious whom Dooku was terrified of.

This isn't a valid argument either. A > B > C does not stack up because it does not account for all available data. You could say with this type of logic that because padawan Obi-Wan beat Maul, he could beat Anoon Bondara or Qui-Gon.

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-Zampanó

Maybe because most people anymore are less interested in the style used than the combatant using it.

This may be the case. However, when you argue two fencers, or two marksmen, or even two UFC fighters, you need to be able to evaluate their fighting styles, experience, and philosophies if possible to best determine a victor.

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-Jinsoku Taka

Right on! For instance, Yoda, with his Ataru (of which this particular style traditionally has several holes in) made Dooku the great lighsaber master, with his Makashi (the supposed "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat"😉, look like an amateurish imp at times in their duel on Geonosis.

But Yoda is not the rule, he is the exception. He combats old age, small size, relative inexperience against fighting Sith and yet manages to overcome almost every opponent. Because of his vast wisdom and immense power with the Force, he's head and shoulders above everyone in the series.

Considering Yoda helped teach Dooku he has an edge in general, and Yoda no doubt had plenty of opportunity to master or at least familiarize himself with all of the styles so as to become peerless with a saber regardless of his actual method. Consider that Yoda was never defeated in saber combat regardless of who stepped on the screen/page/comic panel; it owes to his proficiency and wisdom in general and thus transcends mere style.

When you debate two figures like Dooku and Mace, it is true that style is not everything, but it is a key differentiating factor and at the very least should be examined.

so in other words.... you think dooku is better? why not just say that instead of making a "tell me why this is so" thread and then arguing with every argument thrown your way?

Originally posted by truejedi
so in other words.... you think dooku is better? why not just say that instead of making a "tell me why this is so" thread and then arguing with every argument thrown your way?

Are you trolling, or are you going to actually attempt a rebuttal?

i asked you a question.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Are you trolling, or are you going to actually attempt a rebuttal?

Originally posted by Zampanó
tj has pointed out that this is a not a vs. thread, but an explanation of why people make an argument. Technically, you haven't even asked anyone to defend the argument itself, yet. So trolling is a pretty major charge for such a nebulously defined topic.

👆

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There's still this quote though:

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his [Dooku's] equal on neutral ground

So it is not 100% true that Mace is better than Dooku, right?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm a little surprised at how Mace is given such a solid advantage over Dooku by most patrons of this sub-forum and I'd like to make a place to discuss both styles against one another.

Some points I'd like to see addressed:

1. Makashi is the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" according to Cin Drallig, a noted master of many forms.
It's explicitly listed as the dominant saber form when Jedi and Sith fought, only becoming obsolete when the Sith were no longer a common threat mainly because it excelled at defeating other duelists.

2. Nowhere is Vaapad noted explicitly for being good at fighting other lightsaber duelists. Its main strength is channeling inner darkness and allowing the Force to make you appear erratic and fast. The argument that Vaapad > Makashi is never resolved by those who very quickly say Mace > Dooku.

Thoughts? Insights? Rants? Quite frankly, I'd love to see some actual reasoning behind some of these arguments.

^ You're welcome to re-read the original post and go from there. If you feel this is in the wrong section, feel free to notify a moderator.

This thread has a dual purpose; to rehash the Mace > Dooku thing (because it seems to be accepted almost without conscious thought around here; anytime something is unanimously agreed upon in a subjective versus argument it should perhaps be explained if not properly evaluated) and to also consider their respective fighting styles. A lot of pro-Mace arguments cite Vaapad. But what aspects? The dark side channeling? Okay, that may have some merit. Surprisingly few mentioned the Shatterpoint. Mace's wartime experience. Almost no evidence of his EU fights. I'm simply looking for some well-formulated arguments in general. I figured bringing up the fighting styles and how they differ would start that trend.

Sorry for making any of you rethink your opinions, folks.

truejedi

so in other words.... you think dooku is better? why not just say that instead of making a "tell me why this is so" thread and then arguing with every argument thrown your way?

Here's a new concept: when you seem certain of something, it's a good idea of others to attempt to challenge you regardless of their own personal feelings, to test your conviction and your knowledge. Socrates did this, you may have heard of him before. Sure, I think Dooku has an edge; I won't deny it. But I do agree that the fight is very very close as well. In SW, an edge doesn't equate victory, as Anakin versus Obi-Wan proved very well. Dooku may have an edge in my opinion, but Mace could win half or more than half of the time. The purpose of the exercise is to bring some stuff to the table, not just blindly accept what is given in the community.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

truejedi

Here's a new concept: when you seem certain of something, it's a good idea of others to attempt to challenge you regardless of their own personal feelings, to test your conviction and your knowledge. Socrates did this, you may have heard of him before. Sure, I think Dooku has an edge; I won't deny it. But I do agree that the fight is very very close as well. In SW, an edge doesn't equate victory, as Anakin versus Obi-Wan proved very well. Dooku may have an edge in my opinion, but Mace could win half or more than half of the time. The purpose of the exercise is to bring some stuff to the table, not just blindly accept what is given in the community.

👆

Well since we're being all academic here,

Soranus
However, I do recall that Dark Rendezvous indicates Dooku is ahead, even if slightly. Yoda notes him as the prodigal student, head and shoulders above the rest, and Mace himself does not contradict Yoda. Add to that the fact that Dooku, iirc, has beaten Mace before, and I think he stands a better chance here.

Dark Rendezvous also indicates that the margin between the good Count and his Master, the great and terrifying Darth Sidious, is quite substantial. The same Dooku who scarcely bats an eyelash at the notion of confronting Yoda in a duel to the death must damn near change his finely pressed trousers after a mere holo-conference with the magnificent and rather distinguished Darth Sidious.

As truejedi correctly points out, Mace managed to defeat a man who is clearly more powerful and more dangerous than the good Count, utilizing tools that will be available to him in a match against the good Count (the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of the Vaapad fighting form). Why wouldn't he win?

Originally posted by truejedi
Fairly certain we assume Mace is better because he beat Sidious whom Dooku was terrified of.

Not that Im disputing Sidious being considerably more powerful than Dooku but Im not convinced that Dooku being scared of Sidious proves anything except that Sidious has a psychological hold over Dooku.

Think of this.. Dooku is not terrified to challenge Yoda (actually considers himself Yoda's equal according to Dark Rendezvous).. Yoda who probably beat Sidious in a Saber fight, and at least stalemated him in a Force fight.

I also dnt think Apprentice is automatically weaker than Master. Just look at Vader and Starkiller..

Also despite the fact that Mace beat Sidious, I doubt anyone would argue that Mace is more powerful than Sidious, or even equally as powerful.

I assume Mace would beat Dooku for the same reason(s) he beat Palpatine.

Vaapad would allow Mace to channel Dooku's dark energies into his own weapon of the light. Shatterpoint would allow him to exploit any potential weaknesses he saw. Additionally, Makashi doesn't possess the kinetic power to meet some of the more physically intensive forms (Djem-So, Juyo, Vaapad, etc.) head to head. That could also play a key role here.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Well since we're being all academic here,

With RagingBoner having visited the clown academy graduating in "Sidious wankery" with "summa cum fanboy".

Dark Rendezvous also indicates that the margin between the good Count and his Master, the great and terrifying Darth Sidious, is quite substantial. The same Dooku who scarcely bats an eyelash at the notion of confronting Yoda in a duel to the death must damn near change his finely pressed trousers after a mere holo-conference with the magnificent and rather distinguished Darth Sidious.

Oh. This story again.
So Sidious superiority over Dooku in terms of power is "proven" by Dooku's fear when thinking about his master. Of course, fear is not even close to being a rational evaluation of a situation, but this can be ignored. We can also ignore the fact that we don't know, how Sidious did manage to inspire fear in Dooku. If it was sheer power, then why didn't Dooku fear Yoda, who has demonstrated his superiority over him before. Answer: Fear is not a rational feeling, but based on pure feral instinct.

This makes the attempt to prove something based on the "fear" of a character irrational per definition. Especially when not even being aware of the cause for that fear. The mere assumption that it was power, when Sidious didn't demonstrate any kind of ability in direct combat that could be utilized to conclude that he is head and shoulders above his apprentice.

As truejedi correctly points out, Mace managed to defeat a man who is clearly more powerful and more dangerous than the good Count, utilizing tools that will be available to him in a match against the good Count (the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of the Vaapad fighting form). Why wouldn't he win?

It's nice how Gideon still assumes that his interpretations of power-levels somehow equal fact. Pathetic. Since there is no direct proof for Sidious superiority over Dooku, but just interpretations of ideas pointing in that direction, I find this statement rather absurd. When it comes to the question who is the more dangerous duellist, I'd chose Dooku - with his lightsaber ability and his ability to shit out force attacks while blocking saber strikes left and right - over his master. He's far less predictable, has the more efficient duelling ability and can throw some surprise attacks utilizing his force mastery.

better proofread that quick:

no direct proof for Sidious superiority over Sidious,

I mean, it's obvious what you meant but nit pickers love to nit. pick.