Originally posted by Galan007
Additionally, Makashi doesn't possess the kinetic power to meet some of the more physically intensive forms (Djem-So, Juyo, Vaapad, etc.) head to head. That could also play a key role here.
I don't know. After all, Dooku's Makashi was simply stated to not be able to go head to head with Anakin's Djem-So. Furthemore, no form is really well suited to meet Djem-So head to head as it is intended overpower the other forms through its shear use of power.
Originally posted by Galan007
Additionally, Makashi doesn't possess the kinetic power to meet some of the more physically intensive forms (Djem-So, Juyo, Vaapad, etc.) head to head. That could also play a key role here.
And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there. 🙄
Originally posted by BorbaradAnd here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there. 🙄
Anakin was not utilizing Djem-so at this point per the RotS novel.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Anakin was not utilizing Djem-so at this point per the RotS novel.
He was utilizing his freakin' droid arm, capable of holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Sidious. Is that enough "kinetic power"? Not even mentioning that most of the novels description of the fight is outright contradicted by the movie version. And the particular "faking forms" stuff doesn't make sense at all. Dooku has fought them countless times before. He knows what lightsaber forms they are using.
Originally posted by BorbaradYou misunderstand. I am not saying that Makashi just breaks down when it meets a more physically intensive fighting form. I'm just saying that in an extended battle vs. Vaapad, Makashi's lack of kinetic power *could* hinder it. It isn't an absolute, just a possibility.And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there. 🙄
Originally posted by Galan007Hey, we're arguing Star Wars here! There's no such thing as a "possibility". Only cold hard absolute fact. Makashi>>>Djem So AND Soresu at the same time. Fact. Proven by that screen shot.
You misunderstand. I am not saying that Makashi just breaks down when it meets a more physically intensive fighting form. I'm just saying that in an extended battle vs. Vaapad, Makashi's lack of kinetic power *could* hinder it. It isn't an absolute, just a possibility.
Originally posted by BorbaradAnd here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there. 🙄
This is clearly photoshopped evidence, as everyone knows that Makashi mastery means you're completely overwhelmed by Anakin's "Swing battah battah" style, even though you taught all of the lightsaber forms to Grievous. Oh, and Ventress that little ball of piss and vinegar, routinely uses Force Rage but fails to knock Dooku aside and instead gets tooled.
Let's put two pieces of evidence together:
1. RotS script, which shows Dooku is "faking it" when he's fighting Anakin alone so he can convert him per Sidious' plan.
2. Yoda unbalances and saber traps people three times his size, including Darth Sidious. Dooku isn't overcome by Yoda in saber combat, and fares noticably better on neutral ground than Sidious does. Obviously Yoda has greater Force power at this point than even "in teh zonez" Anakin, and he's hitting with pure kinetic energy using Ataru which is -surprise!- an aggressive style based on kinetic energy and being all up in someone's shit.
Conclusion? The whole EU idea of Makashi not being able to withstand kinetic energy is bullshit ROTS novel material which conflicts with higher sources of canon, namely the movies. I like Stover, but it's like he hit his head and forgot how to do the SW universe justice when he wrote it.
I'm just curious - how can a lightsaber style that's deliberately made to combat other lightsaber users fail to account for .... swinging really hard?
I realize what you're trying to say, but really... "Oh ****, is he swinging hard? My entire fighting philosophy didn't take that into account!"
Most Pathetic Style goes to....
SM
1. RotS script, which shows Dooku is "faking it" when he's fighting Anakin alone so he can convert him per Sidious' plan.
Where?
SM
2. Yoda unbalances and saber traps people three times his size, including Darth Sidious. Dooku isn't overcome by Yoda in saber combat,
I direct you to the 4:14 minute mark of this video, in which Yoda breaks the saber lock with Dooku.
SM
and fares noticably better on neutral ground than Sidious does.
RB
Where?
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Where?
In the script. You know, the part where Dooku is fighting Anakin? We went over this years ago.
I direct you to the 4:14 minute mark of this video, in which Yoda breaks the saber lock with Dooku.
... And Dooku doesn't even move the position of his feet, instead quickly stabbing down and forcing Yoda to move. So Yoda gains no advantage against Dooku with a saber lock, but Sidious is overbalanced? What does that tell us?
And watch the fight again - Dooku controls the pacing superbly. And before the scene where he gets into a saber lock with Yoda, he nearly cuts the old Jedi's ear. Counter this with Sidious being literally behind the eight ball the entire duel, and then being overbalanced like a tool.
SM
In the script. You know, the part where Dooku is fighting Anakin? We went over this years ago.
Yeah, I'm looking at the script right now and I'm not seeing it. I've tried Ctrl + F and searched for "fake" and "restrain" but haven't found any references regarding the good Count.
Besides, it definitely conflicts with what Mr. Lucas had to say:
George Lucas, the Making of Revenge of the Sith, p. 41"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."
SM
... And Dooku doesn't even move the position of his feet, instead quickly stabbing down and forcing Yoda to move. So Yoda gains no advantage against Dooku with a saber lock, but Sidious is overbalanced? What does that tell us?
Would you mind pointing out where exactly Sidious is overbalanced?
SM
And watch the fight again - Dooku controls the pacing superbly. And before the scene where he gets into a saber lock with Yoda, he nearly cuts the old Jedi's ear. Counter this with Sidious being literally behind the eight ball the entire duel, and then being overbalanced like a tool.
RB
Would you mind pointing out where exactly Sidious is overbalanced?
JT
It's not in the script homie. It's the novelization you're talking about.
Do you have the passage in question or can you direct me to it?
Actually, I found it. (I forgot I have an e-copy of ROTS.) I don't see any contradiction here, actually. Obviously Dooku was under the impression he was going to survive the duel and be captured by Anakin, but that does not contradict what is said elsewhere, most importantly by George himself, that the good Count was pulling his punches. Dooku was aware that this was a test: If the good Count defeated Anakin, then Skywalker wouldn't be ready.