Dark Avengers VS Justice League

Originally posted by Q99
Not necessarily, the other Herald level Leaguers could fight Void instead.

C'mon man thats not going to happen.

Originally posted by Q99

But it doesn't really matter which one isn't on Void duty- if Superman is on Void, then Hal takes the rest. Or Diana. Or Martian Manhunter.

You've got three Heralds fighting Void and one wiping the rest of the DA then joining in on Void. All of them will end up fighting Void.

Superman will def be fighting the Void. The Void is going to give three heralds muder I could see almost all the heralds fighting Void at the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by Juntai
So tell me .. . . when Batman kung fu's Grundy down, takes down Aquaman easily in hand to hand, or kung fus and wrestles Lobo to the floor and starts choking him, it's because their IQ dropped, or because he had prep?

There's a ton of these instances. I just named a few. So is it just a random one shot BS thing? How many times should he have to do it?

I don't know enough about those characters to comment but people say similar stuff about Cap and that ain't PIS. I do think Batman taking shots from Superman and The General is PIS though.

Originally posted by 753
that is plain pis. in case you didnt get the point, it is bullshit that he does any of tha. let's take a trip down memory lane; cassandra cain, deathstroke, cain, etc. can oput BM down on his ass. lobo could shatter all of batmans bones with a sneeze. so yeah. it's pis and unnacceptable here given the rules.

It was Batman's first meeting with Deathstroke, back when Deathstroke was the 'new thing', and had the top selling comic in either company. Akin to when Supergirl showed up and was smashing everyone she ran into, or any new character meant to impress for that matter. Red Hulk?

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, Cassandra couldn't even hit Batman in their two encounters. And she's better than the others mentioned. 🙂

She hit him in the first one. Heck, he didn't even notice the damage she did.

The second one, yea, but that was because he was on pure evasion, retreating a lot.

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, Cassandra couldn't even hit Batman in their two encounters. And she's better than the others mentioned. 🙂

It was Batman's first meeting with Deathstroke, back when Deathstroke was the 'new thing', and had the top selling comic in either company. Akin to when Supergirl showed up and was smashing everyone she ran into, or any new character meant to impress for that matter. Red Hulk?

Originally posted by Q99
She hit him in the first one. Heck, he didn't even notice the damage she did.

The second one, yea, but that was because he was on pure evasion, retreating a lot.

I have No Man's Land where that happened on my shelf the other room. I can go look for the 1000ths time if you'd like.

Do you? I'll point out the page for you.

Originally posted by Juntai
That's a forum myth. He had those wounds coming into the fight. He was already exhausted and bloody, and blocked everything she threw, and proved he could land an ending blow on her. Another funny fact? Besides one block, he did the rest entirely with one arm.
You can see his wounds clearly before that even happens.

I have No Man's Land where that happened on my shelf the other room. I can go look for the 1000ths time if you'd like.

Do you? I'll point out the page for you.

I'd love to see that- it sounds like a completely different fight than the one I'm talking about and I didn't recall them fighting in NML at all.

I'm talking about in Batgirl #1. Sparing match, both are completely fresh, only the end is really shown, Batman says Cass is out of shape... then coughs up blood. He smiles, realizing she's been fighting better than he even noticed.

JLA stomp Aquaman and Martian Manhunter mind screw the Void and its game over

Originally posted by Q99
I'd love to see that- it sounds like a completely different fight than the one I'm talking about and I didn't recall them fighting in NML at all.

Oooh, I just checked through NML and realized what was being talked about!

The suicide drill, right?

That was a conversation, not a fight. The two of 'em were following a pre-set kata that Cain had taught them both, they knew the results before it started.

They didn't fight until the Batgirl series, and they fought there in #1 and #50.

Proof? From what I see, he called it the suicide drill, because he knew neither was good enough to stop him when they were going all out. "You can't stop me, but try." Why would you say something like that for a kata?

If it was a pre-set Kata, She was the one mimicking Cains stance, and then move in the first two flashbacks. If this is pre-set, Bruce was meant to lose it.

She went through a completely different flashback when he threw that ending move towards her throat. One that wasn't part of the drill.

To me it looks like, she was testing him there, to see if he was good enough.

He stopped her. And repeated it. "I can stop him. I can stop them all."

Originally posted by Juntai
Proof? From what I see, he called it the suicide drill, because he knew neither was good enough to stop him when they were going all out. "You can't stop me, but try." Why would you say something like that for a kata?

If it was a pre-set Kata, She was the one mimicking Cains stance, and then move in the first two flashbacks. If this is pre-set, Bruce was meant to lose it.

She went through a completely different flashback when he threw that ending move towards her throat. One that wasn't part of the drill.

Because the kata is a puzzle, so to speak. There's only one answer, the throat move, and the target has to find it. Both end up with the exact same result. And I don't think Bruce did at the time, hence the comment (largely a matter of willingness- the question Cass was asking was how far he'd go, and Cain knew he wouldn't kill), but could by the time of NML (he knows the answer to the drill- a deadly move- but intends to stop them without killing).

They passed with the exact same throat move- All three of them use the exact same response, so it certainly isn't 'not part of the drill,' it is the answer to the drill.

To me it looks like, she was testing him there, to see if he was good enough.

He stopped her. And repeated it. "I can stop him. I can stop them all."

It is a test, but a test that both had done in the past, and that his response answered her questions about what he was going to do.
That's why it's a conversation. Set 'questions,' to see if the target knows the responses. The point of it was to talk.

Their first fight that's not on a script, the one that was being referred to where Bruce gets hurt without noticing, is later (she hits him during the suicide drill kata too, but it is just a kata/test so I wouldn't count it).

Originally posted by Q99

Because the kata is a puzzle, so to speak. There's only one answer, the throat move, and the target has to find it. Both end up with the exact same result. And I don't think Bruce did at the time, hence the comment (largely a matter of willingness- the question Cass was asking was how far he'd go, and Cain knew he wouldn't kill), but could by the time of NML (he knows the answer to the drill- a deadly move- but intends to stop them without killing).

They passed with the exact same throat move- All three of them use the exact same response, so it certainly isn't 'not part of the drill,' it is the answer to the drill.

It is a test, but a test that both had done in the past, and that his response answered her questions about what he was going to do.
That's why it's a conversation. Set 'questions,' to see if the target knows the responses. The point of it was to talk.

Their first fight that's not on a script, the one that was being referred to where Bruce gets hurt without noticing, is later (she hits him during the suicide drill kata too, but it is just a kata/test so I wouldn't count it). [/B]

Originally posted by Juntai
Sure.

I call it, "inventing my own idea of a character, rather than the one portrayed", but to each his own.

Originally posted by Juntai
No. It shows Batman using it on her. Her using it on some fat guy. And Cain using it on a practice dummy--In the flashbacks. It doesn't show them answering the drill with it. All completely seperate from the flashback of the drill.

I don't think I can quite accept the argument that the move he used, which all three of them use in relation to the drill, is not part of the drill and the set of moves that's supposed to be used in respect to it.

Do you have any proof outside of this?

There is the matter that she's starting with a kata stance and series of moves he knows and she knows he knows, exactly.

It's really clearly not a real fight. He, at most, slightly mixed up the ending, but there's no question she wasn't fighting for real, she was following a known series of attacks.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think I can quite accept the argument that the move he used, which all three of them use in relation to the drill, is not part of the drill and the set of moves that's supposed to be used in respect to it.

When he shows that move, not a single one of the flashbacks/panels is back to drill.

She is using it on an un-named man, at a completely different stage of her development.
Cain is shown using it on a dummy.
And Batman is using it on her.

Originally posted by Q99

It's really clearly not a real fight.

Batman then stops her.
And she looks like a deer in headlights.
And says he can stop Cain too.

If you don't have any other evidence, of this being some pre set winner kata, puzzle stuff, I'm going to have to suggest that you're making shit up.

Originally posted by Juntai
They didn't use it in relation to the drill.

When he shows that move, not a single one of the flashbacks/panels is back to drill.

She is using it on an un-named man, at a completely different stage of her development.
Cain is shown using it on a dummy.
And Batman is using it on her.

So a series of flashbacks, all of which have been of the Suicide Drill up to that point, end on the move, and you just assume it's a change of subject and not a continuation?

Quite a big leap there. I think you're just ignoring context, burden of proof is on you to prove it's unrelated because there's certainly no indication in the comic.

---

Anyway, she also punches him in the head during the kata, so you were technically incorrect on that part in any case, and you also apparently don't know about their first non-scripted fight, not long later in Batgirl #1.

It's flashing back to training sessions with Cain, because he's just realized her move set is the same as his. He's relating it all in his mind. Same way he figured out she couldn't talk.

The only burden of proof to be had is of you proving this to be some pre-set kata as you describe. And I'd suggest it's a hefty one, since the issue has no mention of it.

But yes, she does hit him once. But he was hardly trying either. He just stood there and blocked, never really even shifted his feet, dodged or move, then stopped her in her tracks and showed he could kill her. But I'll concede that. That's better than a lot of people do. In, I think, in the Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive arcs, Cain couldn't hit Bruce either. Neither could Nightwing. He absolutely leveled both of them when he meant to.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's flashing back to training with Cain, because he's just realized her move set is the same as his. He's relating it all in his mind.

Of course, she is using moves he knows in order to tell him about herself and Cain.

Including, notably, the formal setup stance which includes no attacks and is purely to tell the other person it's starting.

Going through these moves tells Batman the situation he's in, because the moves set up a specific situation.

The only burden of proof to be had is of you proving this to be some pre-set kata as you describe. And I'd suggest it's a hefty one, since the issue has no mention of it.

They show repeatedly throughout the fight she's doing the exact same moves Cain showed Bruce. Flashback Cane does a move, she does a move, etc. etc..

I'm going to suggest you're being deliberately obtuse. Real fights do not involve following exact patterns the other person has seen before.

There's no words because that's the entire point- it's visually obvious and Cassandra talks through fighting. Bruce listens through fighting. Sorta central to the character interaction there.

But yes, she does hit him once. But he was hardly trying either. He just stood there and blocked, never really even shifted his feet, dodged or move, then stopped her in her tracks and showed he could kill her.

Yea, and she was following an exact pattern of attacks he had seen before to get his response, and that's how he choses to answer. It's a conversation.

It's not a fight when you tell your opponent, "Ok, in 4 moves from now? I'm totally going to be here, so give me your answer there in the form of an attack."

By summation, Bruce was using the move to her know he was trained too, and that he was better than Cain, and would beat him. Because she was using a similar style to David Cain.

It's flashing back, because Bruce is remembering training seeing this style of fighting in front of him.

If Bruce knew all of the moves set up, and the moves ahead of it, why the **** would he punched in the face!? lol.

If you don't have any other evidence, of this being some pre set winner kata, puzzle stuff, I'm going to have to suggest that you're making shit up.

Just like when you suggest they're all using it as the answer to the kata, and that is nothing remotely close to what it shows. They're all using it at completely different times, none of them in spar with the others.

It just shows they were both taught by David Cain.

When you're suggesting is reaching pretty far, unless you have other evidence.