RotS Sidious and Count Dooku Versus Darth Bane and Exar Kun

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I have no problems with that conclusion. But the amulets are a part of his standard equipment, just like lightsabers for Jedi or Boba Fetts jetpack. And taking his character as a whole, with the amulets, I'd give him the edge over Sidious (unless Gideon etc swoops in a blows my mind with a counter-argument).

That's just it, Sidious is better than Exar Kun. Unless he has extra equipment. Just like practically every Force user is better than Boba, unless Boba has his equipment.

Its not 'extra equipment' its 'standard equipment'. Exar Kun as he normally is can beat Sidious. You guys aren't ragging on Bane for using the Orbalisks, now are you? Whats the difference?

um, i usually DO make that same distinction with bane and the orbalisks actually. except bane with orbalisks still can't beat sidious.

You make the distinction between ROT and DOE Bane, two different incarnations of the same character with Bane possessing the Orbalisks in only one. You're not saying ROT Bane would suck ass without them! Here you're just objecting to Kun utilising his standard equipment. Its liek saying that Kun wouldn't be able to beat Sidious without his lightsaber: Of course, but in his standard incarnation, he would.

where did I object? now i'm confused. i responded to both scenarios.

YouTube video

don't show me gae animes when i'm talking to you

N.
(unless Gideon etc swoops in a blows my mind with a counter-argument).

Palpatine's a dangerous enough swordsman to hold his own against Mace Windu, despite the extraordinarily powerful metaphysical properties of Vaapad (ROTS novelization), and annihilate three of the Order's most celebrated swordmasters (The Complete Visual Dictionary). In addition, his power is sufficient to cow Dooku, who is himself one of the most respected, powerful, and skilled Jedi Masters in history (ROTS novelization) and affect thousands of Jedi across the galaxy; telekinetically, he's capable of casually manipulating automobile-sized Senate platforms.

Without his amulets, which "radically" enhance his power (even telekinetic power), I haven't seen anything Kun can produce that puts him on Palpatine's level. With his amulets, Palpatine's probably fast enough to make this a very personal fight and, while it is undoubtedly a closer match, he might still win.

My mind remains as perfect as it once was.

Phew.

as perfect as it ever was might be more accurate.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You mean he hit a holocron while wearing the amulet? As I recall, Sidious just pointed at the lightsaber and turned it into dustk.

No. I mean destroying a holocron that Luke Skywalker was holding in his hand, while he was a mere spirit.

I appreciate you letting me "try" this argument again, as you've been trying it for years.

I've been trying to prove Yoda's status as most powerful Jedi ever based on that quote? You may want to go find the post where I did, just before finding another source for your point.

Goly gee, an experienced duelist!!! Well then that explains it. Btw, I love the double standards here. When I mention Revan and how he learned in the underground cities of Malachor, you want specifics. But it's fine for us to call Vodo awesome because he's an "experienced duelist". That's hysterical Nai🙂

Huh? Are you confusing me with Slash, Sexy? Or Lightsnake? Clearly your memory doesn't serve you well. I really like implications, like Revan looting a shitload of knowledge from Malachor, which doesn't mean that I always have to accept without further questioning.

In our present case, Vodo's skill is apparent from the fact, that he managed floor Kun with a single strike from his stick. You don't do that to "a master swordsman" when you don't have some skill, or do you? Did that escape your attention?

@truejedi

Originally posted by truejedi
the quote from ROTS is not from Yoda's mind.

Oh really, TJ? Apparently, you didn't learn anything from our last little confrontation on the field of literature interpretation. So here we go again.

"Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just didn't have it." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Emphasis mine. Who does see the "truth" here, TJ?
It's Yoda. All of that is a result of Yoda's very own thoughts. It's his truth, not the truth. The entire novel is written from a third-person limited perspective, following the views of different characters within the story, e.g. Obi-Wan and Dooku at the beginning. And, gosh, the narrative mode doesn't change here, in order to produce some binding statement regarding Yoda's power.

Saying it is, and the comment about Dooku reagarding mace isn't is simply a matter of picking and choosing as you see fit.

I really don't know what you're talking about. I'm rather good as destinquishing between character statements / judgements and passages that are part of an "independent narrator" (which hardly exists in written fiction today). The only quotes regarding Mace and Dooku having to do with Yoda (?) are direct quotes from Yoda, which have to be treated like any other character statement (meaning that they are subject to interpretation and falsification). What is your point? That I need to assume, Yoda always tells and thinks the absolute truth in order to use of his statements as a basis for an argument?

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I mean destroying a holocron that Luke Skywalker was holding in his hand, while he was a mere spirit.

I've been trying to prove Yoda's status as most powerful Jedi ever based on that quote? You may want to go find the post where I did, just before finding another source for your point.

Huh? Are you confusing me with Slash, Sexy? Or Lightsnake? Clearly your memory doesn't serve you well. I really like implications, like Revan looting a shitload of knowledge from Malachor, which doesn't mean that I always have to accept without further questioning.

In our present case, Vodo's skill is apparent from the fact, that he managed floor Kun with a single strike from his stick. You don't do that to "a master swordsman" when you don't have some skill, or do you? Did that escape your attention?

]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What exactly does "master swordsman" mean? How would you quantify that when comparing Kun and Vodo to say Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious?

Spoiler:
When it pertains to a character from an older generation, "master swordsman" means equal to or superior than any fighter from a subsequent generation. When it applies to individuals from the prequel trilogy, like Masters Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar, it doesn't apply at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its not 'extra equipment' its 'standard equipment'. Exar Kun as he normally is can beat Sidious. You guys aren't ragging on Bane for using the Orbalisks, now are you? Whats the difference?

No, I just call it equipment. I prefer fights in which both combatants have the same amount of armor and weapons. That is the only way in which you can decide who is actually the best. If Exar gets amulets, then so should Sidious. If Bane gets Orbalisks, then so should Sidious. Fair is fair.

"Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just didn't have it." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Okay, I'm not a wiz on literature like most of you here might be, but I don't see how Yoda being the "most powerful the darkness had ever known" is Yoda's opinion. It seems to me that the omniscience narrator is letting the reader know that Yoda's thoughts were the truth, unless that part is not coming from an omniscience narrator, and Yoda refers to himself as "he".

No, I just call it equipment. I prefer fights in which both combatants have the same amount of armor and weapons. That is the only way in which you can decide who is actually the best. If Exar gets amulets, then so should Sidious. If Bane gets Orbalisks, then so should Sidious. Fair is fair.

No, because thats bollocks. This is a forum for character battles. We take characters as they are and pit them against each other. Standard equipment is a forum-wide rule last I checked anyway.

That is not fair at all. Its like me saying that since Sidious has the Force Storm, every character he fights should get it. Greivous has a cybernetic body vastly superior to a humans, everyone should get it. The Exile is a wound, EVERYONE! Characters should fight as they normally appear unless otherwise specified. That is whats fair. Gimping one side by giving the other their advantages is just crap.

And btw giving Palpatine the orbalisks would cripple him from the pain, so yeah.

What you just said, N., is utterly moronic. Grievous's cybernetic strength isn't equipment, but a part of his physiology. The Exile's role as a "wound" in the Force is metaphysical, not based on equipment, nor is it voluntary. Palpatine's Force Storm is a technique in the Force reflecting his mastery of it.

Bane's orbalisks aren't a measure of his power and neither are Kun's amulets. They're equipment and thus do not reflect the power and skill of their users.

Utterly. Moronic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And btw giving Palpatine the orbalisks would cripple him from the pain, so yeah.

wut?

Remember the immense pain derived from the orbalisks literally feasting upon you?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Remember the immense pain derived from the orbalisks literally feasting upon you?

Bane got over it.

What you just said, N., is utterly moronic. Grievous's cybernetic strength isn't equipment, but a part of his physiology. The Exile's role as a "wound" in the Force is metaphysical, not based on equipment, nor is it voluntary. Palpatine's Force Storm is a technique in the Force reflecting his mastery of it.

Bane's orbalisks aren't a measure of his power and neither are Kun's amulets. They're equipment and thus do not reflect the power and skill of their users.

They are essential parts of the character. How has this ever not been a thing that was true? Its like taking the Master Sword from Link, The Sword of the West from Aragorn, a lightsaber from a Jedi.

Equipment is a part of a characters power. Are we going to argue that Samus sucks dick because she relies on a suit and then actually use that character in a forum fight? Why the fvck would we do that? Samus has the suit. That is her character. Would you take Mjolnir from Thor? IronMan from his armor? No, because they are a part of their power set. Since when has equipment suddenly been divorced from the wielder? Never, thats when. Exar Kun and ROT Bane fight with their respective artifacts. That is a part of their skillset. To argue that that is unfair is exactly the same as taking Force Lightning from Palpatine, GigaDrain from Nihilus.

Gimping one side by taking away or giving the other side their advantages is just bullcrap.

Utterly. Moronic.

Oh I get it! Because thats what I said to you! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1!

Sidesplitting. 😐

Bane got over it.

He had years and the spread of the orbalisks was gradual. Palpatines gonna start the fight and keel over in agony.