RotS Sidious and Count Dooku Versus Darth Bane and Exar Kun

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because thats bollocks. This is a forum for character battles. We take characters as they are and pit them against each other. Standard equipment is a forum-wide rule last I checked anyway.

I'm not going by what all forums are adopting (you conformist!). I'm explaining why it would be more logical to choose a character that is more powerful, without them being able to use any equipment that the other doesn't have.

That is not fair at all. Its like me saying that since Sidious has the Force Storm, every character he fights should get it.

This is an ability, it is not equipment.

Greivous has a cybernetic body vastly superior to a humans, everyone should get it.

He can't survive without a body... It's like Darth Vader gets to keep his armor, because without it he dies.

The Exile is a wound, EVERYONE!

This is an inherent trait, not equipment.

Characters should fight as they normally appear unless otherwise specified. [b]That is whats fair.[/B]

Characters should fight how they truely are. Wedge is a pilot, his standard equipment is his X-Wing, it's how he normally appears. So when we have him fight Kit Fisto, he will just blast him away. Is that fair? Does that make Wedge better?

Gimping one side by giving the other their advantages is just crap.

No, giving one side advantages in the first place is crap.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They are essential parts of the character.

They're not. They're equipment and weapons that can be removed or changed.

N.
Equipment is a part of a characters power.

Great. Then I'm allowed to argue that Palpatine is capable of singlehandedly obliterating planets and destroying solar systems by virtue of Imperial super-weapons.

N.
That is a part of their skillset. To argue that that is unfair is [b]exactly the same as taking Force Lightning from Palpatine, GigaDrain from Nihilus.

Gimping one side by taking away or giving the other side their advantages is just bullcrap.[/B]

It's not part of their skillset, because it's not a skill. It's equipment. It's optional. It's voluntary. Force techniques, like the Force drain and lightning, are entirely different.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He had years and the spread of the orbalisks was gradual. Palpatines gonna start the fight and keel over in agony.

It is utterly moronic for you to suggest this. Palpatine will be starting the duel at full strength with the orbalisks previously equipped; any side-effects would naturally have been dealt with. If he were just putting them on when the fight begins, then perhaps* you might have a point.

*You probably still wouldn't, actually. Palpatine took his Force lightning to the face, causing incredible damage to his flesh; Starkiller hurled him into the ceiling of his control tower of the Death Star and then flung him to the floor; he also took an explosion to the face that was powerful enough to obliterate his tower and cause notable superficial damage to the Death Star from a distance. And he got back up. His threshold for pain is immense.

They're not. They're equipment and weapons that can be removed or changed.

When characters fight, they usually have a set of standard equipment that they use in that fight. To suggest that don't use it in a forum fight is the same as expecting Jedi not to use a lightsaber. Jedi use lightsabers, hence, they use lightsabers in this forum*. Exar Kun uses his amulets, hence he uses his amulet in this forum*.

*Unless otherwise specified. Obviously it is up to the threadstarter.

Great. Then I'm allowed to argue that Palpatine is capable of singlehandedly obliterating planets and destroying solar systems by virtue of Imperial super-weapons.

Vehicle /=/ equipment.

Besides, Palpatine is not usually accompanied into a duel with teh Death Star. 😐

It's not part of their skillset, because it's not a skill. It's equipment. It's optional. It's voluntary. Force techniques, like the Force drain and lightning, are entirely different.

Force techniques are learnt. It is entirely optional whether they are. Therefore, obviously they should be thrown out.

I like how you ignored half my post as well as the miriad examples of characters whose skillset rely on equipment. Keep it classy Gid! 👆

baaaaaaaaaaaait!

It is utterly moronic for you to suggest this. Palpatine will be starting the duel at full strength with the orbalisks previously equipped; any side-effects would naturally have been dealt with. If he were just putting them on when the fight begins, then perhaps* you might have a point.

Oh, I guess that should have been obvious to me? I'm..... sorry?

?????

Here are my thoughts on the matter. I'm fine having Exar Kun use his amulets in a forum fight. However, I believe that saying Exar Kun is more powerful than another force user because of his amulets is faulty as it is not solely his own power.

Lightsaber duels and Force powers are ubiquitous in combat throughout the saga. Exar Kun's amulets are not. Orbalisks are not. The Dark Reaper is not. The Death Star is not. Without his amulets, Kun still has a melee weapon and access to the Force to fight. Without orbalisks, Bane, too, has a lightsaber and the Force. Force techniques, not Force artifacts, are a part of one's skill set.

But, of course, I can't give Palpatine or Dooku such weapons, because it would be cheating.

I'll give you one thing: You're consistent. Even your cherrypicking is flamboyant. 👆

I'm not going by what all forums are adopting (you conformist!). I'm explaining why it would be more logical to choose a character that is more powerful, without them being able to use any equipment that the other doesn't have.

And I'm explaining that equipment is a definate part of a characters powers. Would you seperate Samus, Thor, IronMan etc from their various equipment in order to have a 'fair' fight?

This is an ability, it is not equipment.

He can't survive without a body... It's like Darth Vader gets to keep his armor, because without it he dies.

This is an inherent trait, not equipment.

They are all advantages! And as you say:

'No, giving one side advantages in the first place is crap.'

Guess they should be thrown out?

Characters should fight how they truely are. Wedge is a pilot, his standard equipment is his X-Wing, it's how he normally appears. So when we have him fight Kit Fisto, he will just blast him away. Is that fair? Does that make Wedge better?

As I said to Gideon, a vehicle is not standard equipment. He cannot 'equip' a starship, now can he? He drives it.

No, giving one side advantages in the first place is crap.

No fight is fair. All characters possess advantages over others than enable them to fight. I fail to see how an advantage in terms of equipment is any different from an advantage in terms of skill or power. Because there is no difference.

Here are my thoughts on the matter. I'm fine having Exar Kun use his amulets in a forum fight. However, I believe that saying Exar Kun is more powerful than another force user because of his amulets is faulty as it is not solely his own power.

I 100% agree.

Originally posted by ares834
Here are my thoughts on the matter. I'm fine having Exar Kun use his amulets in a forum fight. However, I believe that saying Exar Kun is more powerful than another force user because of his amulets is faulty as it is not solely his own power.

What a radical idea.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Lightsaber duels and Force powers are ubiquitous in combat throughout the saga. Exar Kun's amulets are not. Orbalisks are not. The Dark Reaper is not. The Death Star is not. Without his amulets, Kun still has a melee weapon and access to the Force to fight. Without orbalisks, Bane, too, has a lightsaber and the Force. Force techniques, not Force artifacts, are a part of one's skill set.

But, of course, I can't give Palpatine or Dooku such weapons, because it would be cheating.

I'll give you one thing: You're consistent. Even your cherrypicking is flamboyant. 👆

You still fail to address the majority of my points. Kindly do so or stop replying.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No fight is fair. All characters possess advantages over others than enable them to fight. I fail to see how an advantage in terms of equipment is [b]any different from an advantage in terms of skill or power. Because there is no difference. [/B]

It's not that difficult.

"Advantage[s] in terms of skill and power" reflect a person's inherent ability. Advantages from equipment are from a person putting something that on that gives them abilities that they would not be able to produce otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You still fail to address the majority of my points. Kindly do so or stop replying.

I'm not interested in arguing examples of characters from other fictional realms, otherwise I'd be in the Comic Book forum. The advantages of Kun's amulets and Bane's orbalisks aren't indicative of their own abilities.

The Death Star doesn't count because it's a vehicle? I view it as equipment, since its primary purpose is to destroy, not move. Ergo, it counts. Palpatine can use it.

/thread

Wouldn't taking Kun's ambulants away be like taking Thor's hammer away(like Neph said), or Gambit's cards away?

Either way, I still see Palpatine taking majority of the wins rather Kun has his ambulants or not?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I'm explaining that equipment is a definate part of a characters powers. Would you seperate Samus, Thor, IronMan etc from their various equipment in order to have a 'fair' fight?

I do not visit other versus forums except for the Star Wars one. Here we base the combatants power on their use of the Force and duelling skills. If I wanted to see how much strength Tony Stark has, then ofcourse he can't use the suit. It's important to know which outcome you want to achieve, if we'd want to know how Tony in a suit fares then he can have the suit. Here, we want to know which character is the more powerful Force user.

They are all advantages! And as you say:

'No, giving one side advantages in the first place is crap.'

Guess they should be thrown out?

Advantages in referance to equipment. We're still talking about equipment here.

As I said to Gideon, a vehicle is not standard equipment. He cannot 'equip' a starship, now can he? He drives it.

Technically, he flies it. You could see it as a mode of transportation, but then Boba isn't allowed to use a jetpack either as standard equipment. This is exactly the question, where do you draw the line?

No fight is fair. All characters possess advantages over others than enable them to fight. I fail to see how an advantage in terms of equipment is [b]any different from an advantage in terms of skill or power. Because there is no difference. [/B]

Because equipment has nothing to do with one's actual power or strength. The two things a thread starter practically always wants to know is 1) who wins a lightsaber fight and 2) who wins a Force fight.

Btw, I still see lightsabers as equipment as well. But if one combatant can use a lightsaber, then so can the other.

N.
This is exactly the question, where do you draw the line?

Wherever he wants it, apparently.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wouldn't taking Kun's ambulants away be like taking Thor's hammer away(like Neph said), or Gambit's cards away?

Either way, I still see Palpatine taking majority of the wins rather Kun has his ambulants or not?

Ambulants? WTF.

I'm not sure about Mjolnir or Gambit's cards, but Kun still has access to to the Force with or without his amulets. If they were the only source of his power, then I could understand how he'd be gimped.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Wherever he wants it, apparently.

The first letter of my user name is still the "S" of Sex.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The first letter of my user name is still the "S" of Sex.

I put "N" for "Not Sexy."

Originally posted by RagingBoner
It's not that difficult.

"Advantage[s] in terms of skill and power" reflect a person's inherent ability. Advantages from equipment are from a person putting something that on that gives them abilities that they would not be able to produce otherwise.

And here I thought we were a battle forum when we've really been a system with which to measure a characters inherent worth. Silly me. 🙄

Except that this is a battle forum and in a battle forum we use the totality of a character rather than a gimped version stripped of the part of their powerset we don't like.

I'm not interested in arguing examples of characters from other fictional realms, otherwise I'd be in the Comic Book forum. The advantages of Kun's amulets and Bane's orbalisks aren't indicative of their own abilities.

And yet the same problem when arguing with Comic and Game characters is appearing right here. Star Wars isn't some special case where rules and logic don't apply to it. Characters have items as part of their powerset. To remove these items is to cripple said powerset. End of. The examples I listed as completely releent to this discussion, you just brushing them off with 'hurr durr star wars only plz!' doesn't diminish that fact.

The Death Star doesn't count because it's a vehicle? I view it as equipment, since its primary purpose is to destroy, not move. Ergo, it counts. Palpatine can use it.

You cannot 'equip' a Death Star. Thus it is not equipment.

Ok how about this. From now on Boba Fett gets no equipment at all. In fact, all characters must fight naked and greased up. That way we can really get a bead on their 'inherent worth' rather than actual combat ability. Because that would just be stupid!