RotS Sidious and Count Dooku Versus Darth Bane and Exar Kun

Started by Stealth Moose16 pages

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It is on his desk, with a big smile.

That's true, the top and bottom pods have to be able to descend and rise to face the podium.

So then, really, what Sidious did was not telekinetically throw the pods, but rather telekinetically manipulate their direction control mechanism. The pods went down diagonally because they're designed to, and they went that fast because they're able to. Sidious did a lot of minute tinkering with the controls, and little else. Yoda was able to spin his pod because the repulsorlift effectively made the air a frictionless surface to spin on. And he could throw it up because obviously--repulsorlift lifts the pod. The sparks and twisted metal isn't a result of Force-assisted duress, but because the pods are designed to go that fast.

Sidious' and Yoda's telekinetic fight was little more than subtle controlling of the buttons on the control pad of each pod. It was their Lightning stalemate that better demonstrated their power.

Very amusing.

Here's my point - the repulsorpods are making sounds as they manuever. Did Sidious wrench them from their holdings? I don't know. But the question of whether or not he is wholly controlling their weight and descent using his Powers is in question. Thus it cannot be conclusively argued beyond a reasonable doubt that he can just toss those pods around like crazy, especially given that he was unable to repel Yoda's.

SM
Did Sidious wrench them from their holdings? I don't know.

Nah, probably not: The sparks at 2:59 seem typical.

SM
especially given that he was unable to repel Yoda's.

Just like Yoda was unable to throw rocks at Dooku in AOTC, right? Because he didn't and it probably would have helped him.

Yeah.

Seems right!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Very amusing.

Here's my point - the repulsorpods are making sounds as they manuever. Did Sidious wrench them from their holdings? I don't know. But the question of whether or not he is wholly controlling their weight and descent using his Powers is in question. Thus it cannot be conclusively argued beyond a reasonable doubt that he can just toss those pods around like crazy, especially given that he was unable to repel Yoda's.

I would argue that both Sidious' and Yoda's inability to catch the pods (more than once and without closing his eyes) is a product of their limited and inferior connection to the Force.

Just as I would argue that Yoda being unable to throw Dooku on his ass as soon as he walked in to find two of his Jedi cut up and de-limbed before Dooku can escape and "rally more systems to his cause", is a result of Yoda's coincidental and highly convenient inability to conjure up a Force Push that can knock a Sith Lord on his ass...

sucks yoda can't do a force push. must be a looooser. still waiting for anything suggesting that ancient sith had mobility...

I didn't start the "how it looks to me" game, but if you insist on playing it, let's play it for all thread participants, why don't we?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I didn't realize one was martial if and only if one has fought Sith. What it means is that they're inexperienced in fighting Sith Masters, but given that the good Count and his more intelligent, more powerful, more dangerous Master each went toe-to-toe with Yoda, I'd say experience is important, but not everything.

But it is important. Jedi of the PT era are explicitly listed as diplomats first and foremost. While they train in LS combat, they have no need to study for example, Makashi or Juyo. Most Jedi Masters and Knights used Niman, so the idea that they are really "all that" is questionable given their lack of feats, their lack of expertise in the only available battle, and the relative weakness of a majority of their peers.

Let's put it this way - who is more likely to be a great warrior against the Sith - a Jedi Master pre-Ruusan or post?

Not when "everything that's in the book is because Mr. Lucas wanted it there." Take it up with Matthew Stover.

1. The book is radically different from the final cut of the movie. Whole parts are unalike when it comes to combat, which concerns us most.

2. Chee states in the canon article that newest versions of the films themselves dominate. This can extend to the novelization since it's obviously based on the older version of the RotS script which never made it to film.

3. Because the novelization does not accurately depict the same battle as what we see in the movie, I don't see how it can even be admissable in some cases.

"You have to be [b]Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." -- George Lucas, emphasis mine. This corroborates the novelization's emphasis on Palpatine's speed, which, curiously enough, was line-edited by Lucas. Do I see continuity here? Yes, I do.[/b]

This may be the case - that only Mace or Yoda could compete with Sidious. I'll accept that. What I don't accept is the idea that Sidious is better than Random Sith X because of beating down Agen, Tiin, and Kit. They sucked. AotC Anakin would have put up a better fight.

I mean, heck, if we go down your road, because Kun isn't listed by Lucas, he loses.

Very funny. But wrong. Lucas' domain extends to the movies and the events which spawned in them. Because RotS Sidious is a distinguishable entity and his fighting abilities at that time are in question, the movie is a valid source and arguing canon is important because the novelization contradicts it.

With the comics, canon contradiction is not a problem. Kun exists outside of the movies and there is continuity in media where he shows up.

No one's denying that he's powerful, Janus. In fact, no one's denying he's extremely powerful.

This is a first. Usually the crowd here says he's harmless and useless because he's not Sidious.

Right, and Palpatine has more knowledge at his disposal.

Sidious also ruled a large empire, much larger than anything in Kun's era, and he had a lifetime to accumulate said knowledge.

But really, it proves nothing. Just like your claim that Sidious' extensive knowledge proves nothing; because it cannot be substantiated in terms of how it improves the fighter.

But one's power was not what caused one to perform those feats alone, otherwise one wouldn't need a ritual.

You're losing yourself in semantics. Ritual does not mean it's a DnD spell that requires days of prep. Both Sidious and Kun used Sith sorcery and Sith rituals to perform impressive abilities. The point is, they can do it. This is an indication of standing, which you disputed.

When that Jedi "Wall of Light" is established to incinerate spirits, and then Kun's endurance of it means he's uber-l33t, let me know. Until then, it's about as impressive as Palpatine's essence surviving the extraordinary power of the Death Star reactor core.

Actually, the same ability used by just Nomi completely severs Ulic from the Force for the rest of his life. If you had read the comics, you'd know this.

Yes, I forgot how all references to Palpatine's power is in the political environment. Thanks for the reminder.

You're welcome! This service is free.

Right, just like Lucas told the actors playing Windu's posse to stand around like they're amateurs.

The other explanation is that the Jedi masters were really that slow and uncomprehending of basic straightforward combat. Your choice.

😂

No, Janus. My point was that Lucien isn't NYR. He's not the thread starter. All that was said is that Kun is "without the amulets." Not the blasts, but the amulets. As in they're not there. If NYR says otherwise, I'll concede, but I haven't seen it.

Then again, he's been on ignore for about three weeks.

😂

You're clinging to that condition because it suits you, I take it?

Lastly, the point is Sidious' vaunted TK is in question because of the pods' obvious sounds which accompany their movement, unless someone's going to bind, torture, and kill the Razor, dump it in a lake somewhere, and then go on to say how Sidious used his dark side nexus powers to hum the pods for lulz.

Check 2:43

You can CLEARLY hear the sound of the pods' levitation devices. Do me a favor and listen to them while you think up a reply. Kapeesh?

Could that not be the sound affects from the forced used and the speed in which they were thrown? You know movies do that. Just like how they make sound effects for explosions in space. Watch the whole pod scene. If you notice the sound gets louder when he forces them over his head and when he sends them flying at Yoda. You could also hear a small sound representing the force Yoda uses to stop the last pod.

Or it could have been a mistake. There is more evidents indicating he used the force to manipulate the pods, unless you believe he used the force to rip them out of their restraints and then decides "hey I can make this much easier and manipulate the controls instead of using all that force", but then he turns around and uses the force to rip more pods out.

Originally posted by truejedi
sucks yoda can't do a force push. must be a looooser. still waiting for anything suggesting that ancient sith had mobility...

I didn't start the "how it looks to me" game, but if you insist on playing it, let's play it for all thread participants, why don't we?

Look at him, all perched up high!

no, janus's opinion is more important than yours.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Could that not be the sound affects from the forced used and the speed in which they were thrown? You know movies do that. Just like how they make sound effects for explosions in space. Watch the whole pod scene. If you notice the sound gets louder when he forces them over his head and when he sends them flying at Yoda. You could also hear a small sound representing the force Yoda uses to stop the last pod.

Or it could have been a mistake. There is more evidents indicating he used the force to manipulate the pods, unless you believe he used the force to rip them out of their restraints and then decides "hey I can make this much easier and manipulate the controls instead of using all that force", but then he turns around and uses the force to rip more pods out.

1. No one else has Force TK projectiles make sounds distinctly like levitating pods. Nice try though.

2. Someone paid sound guys to correctly synch that specific unique sound to manuevering pods via mistake? "Oh my bad"?

SM
This is a first. Usually the crowd here says he's harmless and useless because he's not Sidious.

What a load of utter bullshitbaloney. Janus, are you really going to deny doing the same thing with Ragnos?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
What a load of utter bullshitbaloney. Janus, are you really going to deny doing the same thing with Ragnos?

Clarify?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Clarify?

You never extended the same sort of favoritism or bias or benefit of the doubt or whatever you want to call it towards Ragnos that you perceive to be now directed at Sidious?

So, you have no proof? Concede?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
You never extended the same sort of favoritism or bias or benefit of the doubt or whatever you want to call it towards Ragnos that you perceive to be now directed at Sidious?

Are you attempting to justify your own favoritism and outright fanboyism by claiming that I am the same?

I guess I'm not following you here.

So, you have no proof? Concede?

My god, TJ, I think you used your shift key for the first time ever!

I'm not sure on how I can prove to you how Yoda stacks up against anyone in the Old Republic comics in terms of speed when AotC had not even come out yet and therefore, Yoda's battle prowess was largely unknown to the public.

This would be as far as me arguing "Find me a quote where Sidious' power is hundreds of thousands of times greater than Kun's", even though the two are never directly compared in the EU. If I argued like that, then I could just blindly stonewall the opposition.

Oh wait, it's happening. I can't hear anyone's counter argument. I've fallen into the logical sandtrap!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Are you attempting to justify your own favoritism and outright fanboyism by claiming that I am the same?

I guess I'm not following you here.

No, I'm attempting to get you to provide an honest answer to an honest question. You b1tch and moan and cry and shout about people being biased for Sidious, we can at least extend objective accolades towards Kun and I can speak to Palpatine's fallibility. Why not try some of this Humble Pie? Tastes good.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
You never extended the same sort of favoritism or bias or benefit of the doubt or whatever you want to call it towards Ragnos that you perceive to be now directed at Sidious?

^ This I read and perceive to be admission of bias and fanboyism of Sidious on behalf of a few members of the subforum here and a clumsy attempt to lure me into identifying with them, claiming that I am a Ragnos fanboy.

I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night.

The difference is, I admit mistakes and allow revisions in my theories based on new evidence, or new viewpoints when available. A large majority of Sidious fanbois simply accept your teachings as gospel and cherrypick the **** out of the opposition. Our debating techniques are not the same.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
^ This I read and perceive to be admission of bias and fanboyism of Sidious on behalf of a few members of the subforum here and a clumsy attempt to lure me into identifying with them, claiming that I am a Ragnos fanboy.

I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night.

The difference is, I admit mistakes and allow revisions in my theories based on new evidence, or new viewpoints when available. A large majority of Sidious fanbois simply accept your teachings as gospel and cherrypick the **** out of the opposition. Our debating techniques are not the same.

Are you really that much of a coward that you can't answer a simple question?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
No, I'm attempting to get you to provide an honest answer to an honest question. You b1tch and moan and cry and shout about people being biased for Sidious, we can at least extend objective accolades towards Kun and I can speak to Palpatine's fallibility. Why not try some of this Humble Pie? Tastes good.

I see that you edited this after my post.

You have once "extended an objective accolade", and never in reference to Sidious' defeat at the hands of anyone. If this is RotS Sidious who has relatively low showings compared to DE Sidious who is a Force God of the highest calibre (sic), you would still rather sulk and poo poo Kun's amulet before you'd admit he might kick Sidious' ass. That is fanboyism and bias.

Considering Ragnos' minions had Force powers on cosmic levels, and he kept them under his iron first for a century without fail, I'm inclined to believe he's oh, how you say, quite powerful. If you call that fanboyism, remember my words the next time you refuse to admit anyone can beat Sidious. In fact, when have you ever said anyone could beat Sidious? Ever?

I don't think I've ever seen such. There was that one time you had a moment of clarity:

Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.

We all have our moments.

SM
I see that you edited this after my post.

I edited it after my post, not yours.

SM
You have once "extended an objective accolade", and never in reference to Sidious' defeat at the hands of anyone.
SM
In fact, when have you ever said anyone could beat Sidious? Ever?
Originally posted by Gideon
Though some might disagree or think I am affording Marka Ragnos too much generosity, I would agree with you, Lieutenant. Ragnos was held in unabashed awe by his society and a post-Palpatine Sithian cult, millennia later. Though, if we wanted to argue strict feats, he is unremarkable, the purpose of this thread is to not ignore statements, strong implications, or inferences. Based on what is said of him, I would say that he rivals the likes of Luke Skywalker, Emperor Palpatine, Yoda, Mace Windu, Exar Kun, Gethzerion, Darth Vader, Starkiller, and other members of the absolute upper tier.

Here you go.

SM
We all have our moments.

Not all of us, apparently.

Oh Jesus, are you two resorting to ad hominems? This was actually pretty interesting to read until the "you said" started appearing.