RotS Sidious and Count Dooku Versus Darth Bane and Exar Kun

Started by RagingBoner16 pages
DS
That sounds about right.

I've picked up enough of his lingo to hold a conversation with him. For example,

as:FJwr'jrrtztkhm"khtrs
jkdr
]jks[rjkrs'phkd'k'gke[phket[jka'[jk[jkpoDookuwankwankwankguguuuuuuuuuuuuuuwd

^ That means "Hello, I hope you are having a pleasant evening." But I think the subtleties are a little off.

DS
So I guess the rationalization is that even though Chee is THE authority on this matter not named Lucas, it wasn't in the movies so it doesn't count? Do I have that right?

Expect it to be an extraordinarily well-written NO U.

and THAT rationale from someone trying to use comics to prove a point....

Originally posted by truejedi
and THAT rationale from someone trying to use comics to prove a point....

Why have you all buried my response to him between a mountain of sillytalk?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Why have you all buried my response to him between a mountain of sillytalk?

because i don't particularly care about your sidious debate. it is the absurd amount of picking and choosing that has been going on around here recently that concerns me. everyone seems to believe they are chee now.

Originally posted by truejedi
because i don't particularly care about your sidious debate. it is the absurd amount of picking and choosing that has been going on around here recently that concerns me. everyone seems to believe they are chee now.

I am the Continuity.

you tried to be, but no one goes to that website anymore...

Snap!

Originally posted by truejedi
you tried to be, but no one goes to that website anymore...

That was horribly insensitive.

tj
because i don't particularly care about your sidious debate. it is the absurd amount of picking and choosing that has been going on around here recently that concerns me. everyone seems to believe they are chee now.

For my part, I tried to explain in the BattleBar my belief on the subject. I don't believe that Palpatine is a black hole of the Force and I don't believe speculation on the part of Visas Marr and Colonel Tobin is anywhere close to what is necessary to proclaim Nihilus the undisputed cosmic threat in the mythos. It seems that no one outside of the two or three characters in KotOR II comes that conclusion anyways.

it was. i take it back. look into my avvy's baby eyes and forgive me.

Originally posted by truejedi
it was. i take it back. look into my avvy's baby eyes and forgive me.

You are forgiven*.

*If and only if you swear fealty and submit your eternal allegiance, in this world and the next, to His Imperial Majesty Palpatine the Undying.

um... let me get back to you on that one. but let's go with the assumption that i will of course agree. later.

Originally posted by truejedi
actually no, it looks alright to me. Really, what kind of combat expert are you to criticize a Jedi Master's form? You really have no case unless you can get a source stating that those Jedi made a mistake in combat. and they certainly didn't "freeze".

Okay, so apparently as an observer I have no way to criticze a Jedi Master's form.... in a subforum dedicated to subjective arguments surrounding fictional characters both onscreen and in other media?

No, my point is that the Jedi appeared to leave huge openings in their defenses, did not follow through with any aggressive attacks or plans, and basically got slaughtered like drunken extras in an 80s film. If you draw a different conclusion because you want to believe that Sidious is faster, so be it. My review still stands though to those who have an open mind.

Me Too Jedi:

So if you are seriously going to go with a "how things look" approach to movies, then I am going to simply ask you to prove one thing for me:

Prove that ANY opponent to an ancient sith featured only in comics had the ability to move faster than Yoda without the force. that's all i ask, because it doesn't appear that way to me....

You're asking me to prove mobility in still media through what means exactly now?

Wait, let me correct that - I must prove that they are all faster than Yoda, an individual who is not referenced in the comics and one who, at the time of the comics being printed, had never even been in a fight?

I'll get right on that, professor.

------

LL:

Strange though, you'd think that if the repulsorlifts the pods use to stay afloat is active, it would make Sidious' propelling of them downwards all the more impressive.

The pods are clearly shown to have the ability to navigate both horizontally and vertically. I don't see how you could argue that Sidious pulled pods from the ranks, their repulsorlifts activated automatically to counter his manuevering, and he somehow overpowered it. It assumes much and violates the Razor like a drunken frat boy. Also, there's the glaring fact that Sidious couldn't stop Yoda's singular pod sent upwards at a much slower speed.

---

Raging Sidious Fan:

Yes, Council members. Referenced as "celebrated swordmasters" during the golden age of the Jedi order.

A Golden Age where the Sith had not been seen, let alone fought for millennia. This does not make them seem martial at all. In fact, what Sith or Dark Sider can be said to be defeated one on one for any of these Council Members? Only Mace Windu. Kit Fisto was handed his ass by Assaj Ventress relatively early in the war, to boot.

Because, in conjunction with the Lucas approved-and-line-edited novelization, Palpatine was faster than they were.

Movies > Books.

This policy has been further refined and fleshed out over the years. The Star Wars website also details the role of canon, Expanded Universe (or "EU" sources), and how they fit into overall Star Wars continuity. Chris Cerasi stated,
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

Emphasis mine. If two sources are "truth", and one is spawned of the other, the secondary form cannot necessarily be greater, can it? And both cannot be equally true. Therefore, the movies are the greater source of canon and should be deferred to when the issue arises of "conflict" between them. If GL wanted to make Sidious faster, he could have used any number of special effects and camera tricks to accomplish it. As it is, he had a talented swordsman step in for Ian and had the Jedi move like tools. Take that for what you will.

Good to know that one's cries of anguish and a Jedi Master being bothered rival another's ability to smother the Force perceptions of ten thousand Jedi at their height. You have a unique system of comparison.

You're missing the point - Exar Kun's anguish made a tremor through the Force which was heard across galaxies, indicating his power. You know, because most Sith don't do this. In fact, the only Sith that I can think of who have this kind of effect would be Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, and Sidious. Notice the exclusion there? 99.999% of Sith don't invoke such high levels of forced empathy.

Dear God, don't make me reference the section about Palpatine's Force knowledge in myGideon's essay, it'll probably make me double post.

I brought that gem out just to bug you. You're always going on and on about tons of undefined knowledge Sidious has, and how it means him > all.

Are you kidding me? Doesn't the narration say "ritual"? Since when are rituals indicative of combat ability and natural power?

Because one's power necessarily indicates whether or not the ritual consumes you. You'd know that if you read the comics once or twice.

Kun's definitely powerful, even in a spectral form, but you're neglecting the critical presence of Kyp Durron in many of his attacks against the new Jedi Order.

This is indicating his relative strength after being bombarded by the Wall of Light from an entire Jedi Order and left in isolation, disembodied for four thousand years. I'd say that's meant to be impressive. But you wouldn't, because he's not Exar Sidious.

But none of these apply when directed at Sidious. Really, man? Can we not agree on some common ground here?

Notice the narrator doesn't continue on to talk about how Exar Kun conquered an empire using political methods and subterfuge. It's a difference in what type of power, since it's not always used in terms of physical prowess or ability in the Force.

Because of the amulet?

Kun's Force standing without it is never examined. For all you know, he could have grown up to be the Jedi version of Yoda. All we know is that with the amulets, he's more powerful than any Jedi in his era, hands down.

And really, considering that with a few months' of Sith knowledge and those amulets, he toyed with and killed every Jedi master in the era, including those with centuries of experience like Yoda, how can you assume he's anything but formidable?

What a conclusion, just based on the noise. You should loan your Ears out to Leland Chee and the folks at LFL, given the fvckton of continuity errors they find themselves in with the new TV show.

Addressed. This is a perfectly logical assumption, based on the evidence. They had to pay someone to make that sound in accordance with the flight of the attacking pods. I'd say that's obvious.

From NYR to Lucien, eh? I didn't realize your selectivity transcended canon sources to posters. Because they're clearly the same guy, right?

What are you talking about here? I addressed NYR first, saying that Kun could not be substantiated without the amulets and thus the thread needed to be revised. He has yet to address that himself. Then I noted that Lucien said "Hey, sometimes when we say no amulets we really mean no amulet blasts". And I noted that this did not invalidate my argument.

So basically, you failed at reading comprehension.

Given your abysmal reading comprehension, deplorable aptitude for interpretation, and your chronic inability to properly source anything (because Lucien can apparently alter the thread starter's scenario at whim!), I'd say this F student feels sufficient pity to hand the ribbon to his mentally handicapped friend Janus, whose perpetual drooling and inarticulate ramble is somewhat endearing. <3

This is even funnier considering how you misread me.

This policy has been further refined and fleshed out over the years. The Star Wars website also details the role of canon, Expanded Universe (or "EU" sources), and how they fit into overall Star Wars continuity. Chris Cerasi stated,
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

Five minutes ago:

So I guess the rationalization is that even though Chee is THE authority on this matter not named Lucas, it wasn't in the movies so it doesn't count? Do I have that right

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Five minutes ago:

Last I checked, the RotS novelization is based on a copy of the script which was revised before the final shooting. For example, Kit Fisto's head is on Sidious' desk.

EDIT: I can't find my copy when I need it. I'll try to get back to confirm that.

It is on his desk, with a big smile.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The pods are clearly shown to have the ability to navigate both horizontally and vertically. I don't see how you could argue that Sidious pulled pods from the ranks, their repulsorlifts activated automatically to counter his manuevering, and he somehow overpowered it. It assumes much and violates the Razor like a drunken frat boy. Also, there's the glaring fact that Sidious couldn't stop Yoda's singular pod sent upwards at a much slower speed.
That's true, the top and bottom pods have to be able to descend and rise to face the podium.

So then, really, what Sidious did was not telekinetically throw the pods, but rather telekinetically manipulate their direction control mechanism. The pods went down diagonally because they're designed to, and they went that fast because they're able to. Sidious did a lot of minute tinkering with the controls, and little else. Yoda was able to spin his pod because the repulsorlift effectively made the air a frictionless surface to spin on. And he could throw it up because obviously--repulsorlift lifts the pod. The sparks and twisted metal isn't a result of Force-assisted duress, but because the pods are designed to go that fast.

Sidious' and Yoda's telekinetic fight was little more than subtle controlling of the buttons on the control pad of each pod. It was their Lightning stalemate that better demonstrated their power.

Update: Found it. Hell, the entire battle seems different. Additional dialogue, different fatalities, etc.

SM
A Golden Age where the Sith had not been seen, let alone fought for millennia. This does not make them seem martial at all.

I didn't realize one was martial if and only if one has fought Sith. What it means is that they're inexperienced in fighting Sith Masters, but given that the good Count and his more intelligent, more powerful, more dangerous Master each went toe-to-toe with Yoda, I'd say experience is important, but not everything.

SM
Movies > Books.

Not when "everything that's in the book is because Mr. Lucas wanted it there." Take it up with Matthew Stover.

SM
Emphasis mine. If two sources are "truth", and one is spawned of the other, the secondary form cannot necessarily be greater, can it? And both cannot be equally true. Therefore, the movies are the greater source of canon and should be deferred to when the issue arises of "conflict" between them. If GL wanted to make Sidious faster, he could have used any number of special effects and camera tricks to accomplish it. As it is, he had a talented swordsman step in for Ian and had the Jedi move like tools. Take that for what you will.

"You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." -- George Lucas, emphasis mine. This corroborates the novelization's emphasis on Palpatine's speed, which, curiously enough, was line-edited by Lucas. Do I see continuity here? Yes, I do.

I mean, heck, if we go down your road, because Kun isn't listed by Lucas, he loses.

SM
You're missing the point - Exar Kun's anguish made a tremor through the Force which was heard across galaxies, indicating his power. You know, because most Sith don't do this. In fact, the only Sith that I can think of who have this kind of effect would be Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, and Sidious. Notice the exclusion there? 99.999% of Sith don't invoke such high levels of forced empathy.

No one's denying that he's powerful, Janus. In fact, no one's denying he's extremely powerful.

SM
I brought that gem out just to bug you. You're always going on and on about tons of undefined knowledge Sidious has, and how it means him > all.

Right, and Palpatine has more knowledge at his disposal.

SM
Because one's power necessarily indicates whether or not the ritual consumes you. You'd know that if you read the comics once or twice.

But one's power was not what caused one to perform those feats alone, otherwise one wouldn't need a ritual.

SM
This is indicating his relative strength after being bombarded by the Wall of Light from an entire Jedi Order and left in isolation, disembodied for four thousand years. I'd say that's meant to be impressive. But you wouldn't, because he's not Exar Sidious.

When that Jedi "Wall of Light" is established to incinerate spirits, and then Kun's endurance of it means he's uber-l33t, let me know. Until then, it's about as impressive as Palpatine's essence surviving the extraordinary power of the Death Star reactor core.

SM
Notice the narrator doesn't continue on to talk about how Exar Kun conquered an empire using political methods and subterfuge. It's a difference in what type of power, since it's not always used in terms of physical prowess or ability in the Force.

Yes, I forgot how all references to Palpatine's power is in the political environment. Thanks for the reminder.

SM
Kun's Force standing without it is never examined. For all you know, he could have grown up to be the Jedi version of Yoda. All we know is that with the amulets, he's more powerful than any Jedi in his era, hands down.

If only Palpatine lived in that era.

SM
And really, considering that with a few months' of Sith knowledge and those amulets, he toyed with and killed every Jedi master in the era, including those with centuries of experience like Yoda, how can you assume he's anything but formidable?

When have I said that he wasn't formidable?

SM
Addressed. This is a perfectly logical assumption, based on the evidence. They had to pay someone to make that sound in accordance with the flight of the attacking pods. I'd say that's obvious.

Right, just like Lucas told the actors playing Windu's posse to stand around like they're amateurs.

SM
What are you talking about here? I addressed NYR first, saying that Kun could not be substantiated without the amulets and thus the thread needed to be revised. He has yet to address that himself. Then I noted that Lucien said "Hey, sometimes when we say no amulets we really mean no amulet blasts". And I noted that this did not invalidate my argument.

So basically, you failed at reading comprehension.

😂

No, Janus. My point was that Lucien isn't NYR. He's not the thread starter. All that was said is that Kun is "without the amulets." Not the blasts, but the amulets. As in they're not there. If NYR says otherwise, I'll concede, but I haven't seen it.

Then again, he's been on ignore for about three weeks.

SM
This is even funnier considering how you misread me.

😂

Book is 10 times better than the film. If that's Lucas idea of a "rough" draft, the guy is officially a retard.

Lucien
Sidious' and Yoda's telekinetic fight was little more than subtle controlling of the buttons on the control pad of each pod. It was their Lightning stalemate that better demonstrated their power.

Close, but Yoda shut his pod off to make it more difficult for dramatic purposes.