RotS Sidious and Count Dooku Versus Darth Bane and Exar Kun

Started by Zampanó16 pages

Originally posted by truejedi
where did i say that? What I am saying is you can't make dismiss Sidious's feat of killing 3 master-swordsmen in seconds because to YOU it looks as though he wasn't moving very fast, when the people you ARE defending move only in still images. Cut the hypocrisy.

I don't think you've understood my point.

Just because the Comic book format is not a video format, does not make it ineligible for comparative analysis. Artwork, especially static artwork, is a major component of the SW mythos (in the form of many hundreds of issues of comic books, notably Dark Empire and TotJ). You absolutely cannot discount the comics just because they do not move; their depiction of events is just as canon as is the films'.

Your allegation of hypocrisy is amusing, if unsolicited. Janus was using the available information (found in the Ep. III theatrical release) and drawing conclusions based on that source. Meanwhile, he used the TotJ comics as a different source for a separate issue. Any "hypocrisy" would lie with the person trying to cherrypick sources to use.

Spoiler:
Apparently we can accuse each other of cherrypicking whenever we disagree about anything.
Your allegation of hypocrisy is amusing, if unsolicited. Janus was using the available information (found in the Ep. III theatrical release) and drawing conclusions based on that source.

Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?

Originally posted by Zampanó
I don't think you've understood my point.

Just because the Comic book format is not a video format, does not make it ineligible for comparative analysis. Artwork, especially static artwork, is a major component of the SW mythos (in the form of many hundreds of issues of comic books, notably Dark Empire and TotJ). You absolutely cannot discount the comics just because they do not move; their depiction of events is just as canon as is the films'.

Your allegation of hypocrisy is amusing, if unsolicited. Janus was using the available information (found in the Ep. III theatrical release) and drawing conclusions based on that source. Meanwhile, he used the TotJ comics as a different source for a separate issue. Any "hypocrisy" would lie with the person trying to cherrypick sources to use.

Spoiler:
Apparently we can accuse each other of cherrypicking whenever we disagree about anything.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
0:44
Sidious spears a Jedi Master. On the screen, Tiin can clearly cleave Sidious in two. His weapon is high, he has is in perfect slicing distance, and Sidious is busy putting his entire saber through Agen. We see that he does raise his blade to strike but...
Agen was also facing the other way...

For some reason.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?

Source and link, please.

Because I remember Samuel L. being told at the last minute that he had to do the stunt and then getting like 20 minutes of time with the choreographer.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Agen was also facing the other way...

For some reason.

I especially love the twirling combat maneuvers in opposite directions of your opponent in the opening of a small office.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Source and link, please.

Because I remember Samuel L. being told at the last minute that he had to do the stunt and then getting like 20 minutes of time with the choreographer. [/B]

Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?

Note the bold, I'll have to find it. I remember that it exists but just not where.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Check 2:43

You can CLEARLY hear the sound of the pods' levitation devices. Do me a favor and listen to them while you think up a reply. Kapeesh?

Could that not be just the one he's standing on?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Could that not be just the one he's standing on?

No, because for the next ten seconds or so as he "throws" them, the levitating sound changes pitch while the camera follows the thrown pods, indicating that they are the ones generating the sound. As one of them goes very close to the camera while being moved higher, you hear it whoosh by with the same sound.

actually no, it looks alright to me. Really, what kind of combat expert are you to criticize a Jedi Master's form? You really have no case unless you can get a source stating that those Jedi made a mistake in combat. and they certainly didn't "freeze".

And Z: I don't even think you HAD a point. Until there is some proof that for some reason the jedi chose to freeze, then they didn't in relation to Sidious... that should be obvious.

SM
I'll give him the holding against Mace Windu aspect, but the three Jedi members?

Yes, Council members. Referenced as "celebrated swordmasters" during the golden age of the Jedi order.

SM
You mean the ones that mostly stood still while he impaled them?

Because, in conjunction with the Lucas approved-and-line-edited novelization, Palpatine was faster than they were.

SM
In the highest canon source ever?

Yes.

SM
Didn't we debunk that claim with actual evidence?
RB
If only we determined canon based on what we liked.... You probably would have enjoyed the Janus-era a lot.

👆

RB
It's like saying I'm a legendary fighter, but Bruce Lee breaks my neck because I stand still in life or death combat. It does not compute.

If Bruce Lee was harnessing the powers of an energy field and his Force-wielding abilities were well beyond yours, this would be an appropriate comparison.

SM
^ Exar Kun's cries of anguish as the dark side heals him is felt and heard across the galaxy. Vodo immediately recognizes than Kun has fell to the dark side, and is afraid of the coming storm.

Good to know that one's cries of anguish and a Jedi Master being bothered rival another's ability to smother the Force perceptions of ten thousand Jedi at their height. You have a unique system of comparison.

SM
Exar Kun possesses a hoard of lore and items from Ossus, the greatest of the Jedi libraries, more than he could ever use.

Dear God, don't make me reference the section about Palpatine's Force knowledge in myGideon's essay, it'll probably make me double post.

SM
Kun shows perfection in a Sith spell which silently freezes thousands of sentient beings still, enough to literally stop an army in its tracks and butcher it without danger. This is an incredible Force feat.

Are you kidding me? Doesn't the narration say "ritual"? Since when are rituals indicative of combat ability and natural power?

SM
Exar Kun drains the Massassi people - thousands - as he attempts to anchor his spirit to the physical world, unlike Sidious' essence transfer which required a physical body. However, because he had not mastered the technique and the entire Jedi Order - some thousands of trained Force users - joined in a wall of light to sever him from the Force, he was left disembodied for four thousand years.

😐

Let me get this straight: Kun tries to perform a technique that would enable him to do something Sidious can't. Kun fails. Kun winds up in a damn near identical position. But because he tried, well, not only does he get full credit, but he's now better than Sidious in all ways?

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

No, I still don't see it.

SM
Still, he had much power in this state once he attacked Luke's Order.

Kun's definitely powerful, even in a spectral form, but you're neglecting the critical presence of Kyp Durron in many of his attacks against the new Jedi Order.

SM
Note that the narrator calls his spirit itself "powerful",

😐

But none of these apply when directed at Sidious. Really, man? Can we not agree on some common ground here?

SM
and suggests that he could perhaps run rampant through the cosmos without a body.

😐

But... he... doesn't.

SM
I'd say he's up there.

Because of the amulet?

SM
Actually, I demonstrated in my detailed RotS duel commentary that the sound of the pods' levitation devices was clearly audible and that he was using TK on the controls, not the entire weight of the pods themselves. This diminishes the feat considerably, considering Qui-Gon Jinn was able to use the Force on a small scale to manipulate droid innards to shut them down. Qui-Gon = Sidious? I think not.

What a conclusion, just based on the noise. You should loan your Ears out to Leland Chee and the folks at LFL, given the fvckton of continuity errors they find themselves in with the new TV show.

SM
You must have slept in, I'm sorry; let me refresh you - I brought up to NYR that clearly Kun can't be argued without his amulets because:
SM
2. They clearly make him more powerful, even if you just eliminate the amulet blasts themselves. LL brought up that usually the blasts themselves are removed, but not the amulets. So my argument stands.

From NYR to Lucien, eh? I didn't realize your selectivity transcended canon sources to posters. Because they're clearly the same guy, right?

SM
1. He always has them as a Sith. So they are always on his person.

That's great. But for the purposes of this match, he's without them.

SM
I'd give you a blue ribbon for reading comprehension, but that would be like rewarding an F student.

Given your abysmal reading comprehension, deplorable aptitude for interpretation, and your chronic inability to properly source anything (because Lucien can apparently alter the thread starter's scenario at whim!), I'd say this F student feels sufficient pity to hand the ribbon to his mentally handicapped friend Janus, whose perpetual drooling and inarticulate ramble is somewhat endearing. <3

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, because for the next ten seconds or so as he "throws" them, the levitating sound changes pitch while the camera follows the thrown pods, indicating that they are the ones generating the sound. As one of them goes very close to the camera while being moved higher, you hear it whoosh by with the same sound.
Strange though, you'd think that if the repulsorlifts the pods use to stay afloat is active, it would make Sidious' propelling of them downwards all the more impressive.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, because for the next ten seconds or so as he "throws" them, the levitating sound changes pitch while the camera follows the thrown pods, indicating that they are the ones generating the sound. As one of them goes very close to the camera while being moved higher, you hear it whoosh by with the same sound.

ooooh wait, could also be their stabilizors getting their asses kicked by his tk....

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Strange though, you'd think that if the repulsorlifts the pods use to stay afloat is active, it would make Sidious' propelling of them downwards all the more impressive.

ninja'd. but yes, my point exactly.

Wondeful. We're back to 3 years ago.

Until there is some proof that for some reason the jedi chose to freeze, then they didn't in relation to Sidious... that should be obvious.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Agen was also facing the other way...

For some reason.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?

It was Leland Chee on SW's Holocron continuity database who said that speeds depicted in the films and EU do not contradict one another. George Lucas said that one "has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" which in Janus-speak means "everyone not named in this sentence sucks except Dooku."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wondeful. We're back to 3 years ago.
Nostalgia's so awesome. Specially when it's a critic/chick.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
It was Leland Chee on SW's Holocron continuity database who said that speeds depicted in the films and EU do not contradict one another. George Lucas said that one "has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" which in Janus-speak means "everyone not named in this sentence sucks except Dooku."

That sounds about right. So I guess the rationalization is that even though Chee is THE authority on this matter not named Lucas, it wasn't in the movies so it doesn't count? Do I have that right?

probably winding up for a strike? You know, like a lot of them do. (watch the clone wars, they do it every 6 seconds, not really sound tactics for fencing, but it seems to work for jedi)

You expect me to forgive the (very) limited medium of comics but you won't meet the failing of a film half way? For you to pretend that the jedi just stood there to be cut down when they went in, lightsabers ignited, ready to do battle, for ANY other reason than Sidious was simply too fast (you had to be Anakin, Yoda, or Mace to fight sidious, remember, GL's words there) is asking us to believe that every person in the mythos who ever froze before being struck down (read: ALL of the them, every lightsaber fight ends with an abnormal freeze) was simply an incompetent fighter, even when we know this not to be true.

So if you are seriously going to go with a "how things look" approach to movies, then I am going to simply ask you to prove one thing for me:

Prove that ANY opponent to an ancient sith featured only in comics had the ability to move faster than Yoda without the force. that's all i ask, because it doesn't appear that way to me....