Void vs Superboy prime

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The point isn't you showing any bias, which I never said you did, the point is you're claiming the guilt jarred Bob back out of the Void, when there is ZERO evidence on panel to back that claim up. Maybe if someone said something to that affect, or if we saw some internal conflict in the Void prior to the Hellicarrier, then I'd buy your argument, but there's nothing like that. In fact there's evidence to the contrary, as I said, Bob not knowing what's going on. If there was internal conflict, he would know exactly what happened.

Guilt didn't jar Sentry out of the Void during Siege. Impact did + a degree of lets say......realignment.

I agree with Nebedicus' analogy of dreamlike existence though. Matches the Sentry's schizophrenic mindset.

The guy always had a loose grip on reality. Which is why I always liked him........and so many didn't.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The point isn't you showing any bias, which I never said you did, the point is you're claiming the guilt jarred Bob back out of the Void, when there is ZERO evidence on panel to back that claim up. Maybe if someone said something to that affect, or if we saw some internal conflict in the Void prior to the Hellicarrier, then I'd buy your argument, but there's nothing like that. In fact there's evidence to the contrary, as I said, Bob not knowing what's going on. If there was internal conflict, he would know exactly what happened.

I never mentioned guilt was what jarred Bob out of his Void persona. What I said was that guilt is what made him allow himself to die.

What I said is that the impact from the Hellicarrier MAY have (arguably) jarred him out of his Void persona (kinda like waking from a nightmare) just long enough for him to allow himself to die.

I feel that his "disorientation" and "incoherence" post-impact could be used as a storytelling approach to denote that Bob got "woken up". Kind of like his "KILL ME!!" plea was used as a storytelling approach to explain away him being killed when he's been shown in prior issues to be virtually unkillable.

Also, I would like to indictate that, even at the end of Siege, he could still Void up even as Bob as he could still access his powers long enough to force Thor's hand. Leading me to believe further that the impact simply jarred the Bob persona out and not depowered him in any way.

What bothers me about how people read Siege is that they assume that the Void can only die if he wants to because he yelled KILL ME to Thor.

It's like if Captain America yelled KILL ME to the Punisher, and the Punisher shot him in the forehead and killed him, that would mean he could only die if he wanted to.

Thor is a herald level being and he was able to kill him. We have people claiming Trans beings like Thanos can't kill him. (Thanos we have ACTUAL EVIDENCE that he can't die). Skyfathers can't kill him. Celestials can't kill him. Etc. I'm not saying this is your position, but it is the position of many people on this site.

Superboy Prime can retcon people's history by punching them. He's taken more punishment on panel than Void ever will, and survived. He's punched his way out of dimensions. He's broken reality with his punches. He's broken meta human's arms.

These two characters are in two separate leagues.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
What bothers me about how people read Siege is that they assume that the Void can only die if he wants to because he yelled KILL ME to Thor.

It's like if Captain America yelled KILL ME to the Punisher, and the Punisher shot him in the forehead and killed him, that would mean he could only die if he wanted to.

Only because he's been shown on panel (on his latter appearances) to sustain much greater damage and simply reform from it. His most latter showings have demonstrated that being blown to bits really does nothing to him. Morgan le Fey blew him up and he reforms some time after, Molecule Man literally demolecularized him several times and he kept reforming til he adapted to MM's attacks and used it against him. The ONE distinguishing factor that separates the physical attacks that couldn't kill him (but did FAR more quantifiable damage) vs the attack that did was that, in the attack that killed him, he wanted to die.

Captain America hasn't been shown to reform from particles, thus, your analogy does not apply to this scenario.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
What bothers me about how people read Siege is that they assume that the Void can only die if he wants to because he yelled KILL ME to Thor.

It's like if Captain America yelled KILL ME to the Punisher, and the Punisher shot him in the forehead and killed him, that would mean he could only die if he wanted to.

Thor is a herald level being and he was able to kill him. We have people claiming Trans beings like Thanos can't kill him. (Thanos we have ACTUAL EVIDENCE that he can't die). Skyfathers can't kill him. Celestials can't kill him. Etc. I'm not saying this is your position, but it is the position of many people on this site.

Superboy Prime can retcon people's history by punching them. He's taken more punishment on panel than Void ever will, and survived. He's punched his way out of dimensions. He's broken reality with his punches. He's broken meta human's arms.

These two characters are in two separate leagues.

There is a contradiction in your statement.

Sentry wanted to die. But the Void wanted out. And Thor applied the bullet that allowed Sentry to die. Like when Morgan Le fey ripped him apart. Cept Sentry decided not to come back with all of his worth. Otherwise he would've simply returned 5 seconds later with the Void vomiting out.

Sentry was the anchor that allowed the Void to exist.

Now I'm no expert on Prime though I agree wholeheartedly he wins this fight due to extreme power output and his ability to KO Void into Sentry mode.

But my argument is Sentry wanting to die is the reason why neither Sentry and therefore Void returned back after Thor dealt the kill blow.
Sentry allowed Void to take control after he tried to kill himself hence Siege. But once Sentry returned and saw the destruction his choice created he INSTANTLY begged for death.

In a forum fight. Sentry doesn't want to die. And upon destruction he can recreate himself anywhere on the physical plane. But that means KO in this fight.

This thread belongs to Prime. But if this thread had Sentry in cahoots with Void it would be another scenario.

Originally posted by iceman24567
You are lowballing again. His strength feats in general are better than Hulks.

I'm not trying to lowball, just looking at things in a different perspective. This isn't about Hulk, so his name isn't needed here.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Only because he's been shown on panel (on his latter appearances) to sustain much greater damage and simply reform from it. His most latter showings have demonstrated that being blown to bits really does nothing to him. Morgan le Fey blew him up and he reforms some time after, Molecule Man literally demolecularized him several times and he kept reforming til he adapted to MM's attacks and used it against him. The ONE distinguishing factor that separates the physical attacks that couldn't kill him (but did FAR more quantifiable damage) vs the attack that did was that, in the attack that killed him, he wanted to die.

Captain America hasn't been shown to reform from particles, thus, your analogy does not apply to this scenario.

It's not supposed to be the exact situation, that's why it's an analogy. Surviving demolecularization isn't the same as being hit by an immense amount of energy. So surviving that doesn't imply surviving an attack from a MAGICALLY enchanted hammer, for instance. Sersi can reform from being atomized too. So can a lot of comic book characters. It doesn't mean they can never die unless they want to. Are you seriously claiming someone like Exitar couldn't kill the Void, unless the Void wanted to die?

Originally posted by the ninjak
In a forum fight. Sentry doesn't want to die. And upon destruction he can recreate himself anywhere on the physical plane. But that means KO in this fight.

This thread belongs to Prime. But if this thread had Sentry in cahoots with Void it would be another scenario.

Doesn't a KO require at least some form of incapacity for the character, tho? Being pinched to bits only to reform a second later wouldn't count as a KO to me.

Also, as this is assumed to be characters fighting at their best shouldn't it also be assumed that there is no internal strife between Void and the Sentry happenong during the fight?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Doesn't a KO require at least some form of incapacity for the character, tho? Being pinched to bits only to reform a second later wouldn't count as a KO to me.

Also, as this is assumed to be characters fighting at their best shouldn't it also be assumed that there is no internal strife between Void and the Sentry happenong during the fight?

Originally posted by the ninjak
There is a contradiction in your statement.

Sentry wanted to die. But the Void wanted out. And Thor applied the bullet that allowed Sentry to die. Like when Morgan Le fey ripped him apart. Cept Sentry decided not to come back with all of his worth. Otherwise he would've simply returned 5 seconds later with the Void vomiting out.

Sentry was the anchor that allowed the Void to exist.

Now I'm no expert on Prime though I agree wholeheartedly he wins this fight due to extreme power output and his ability to KO Void into Sentry mode.

But my argument is Sentry wanting to die is the reason why neither Sentry and therefore Void returned back after Thor dealt the kill blow.
Sentry allowed Void to take control after he tried to kill himself hence Siege. But once Sentry returned and saw the destruction his choice created he INSTANTLY begged for death.

In a forum fight. Sentry doesn't want to die. And upon destruction he can recreate himself anywhere on the physical plane. But that means KO in this fight.

This thread belongs to Prime. But if this thread had Sentry in cahoots with Void it would be another scenario.

it looked like the Sentry and Void were one in the same in Siege. IMO it would be more accurate to say Bob and Void weren't in cahoots. If an incredible amount of energy reverts Void back to Bob, and then Bob's throat is snapped, I don't think Void comes back, as he is dependent on Bob. SBP could potentially punch Void so hard he changes his history so he never even took the serum and was never created. It's highly doubtful that Void could even HIT a guy who can keep up with the Flashes in speed either.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
It's not supposed to be the exact situation, that's why it's an analogy. Surviving demolecularization isn't the same as being hit by an immense amount of energy. So surviving that doesn't imply surviving an attack from a MAGICALLY enchanted hammer, for instance. Sersi can reform from being atomized too. So can a lot of comic book characters. It doesn't mean they can never die unless they want to. Are you seriously claiming someone like Exitar couldn't kill the Void, unless the Void wanted to die?

Eternals can reform from molecules, yes. But the time it would take for them to do so would indicate a forum KO.

Most trans+ beings that have powers beyond physical attacks would be able to defeat the Void, yes. But, logically speaking, what's the worst SBP punching him or blasting him with HV can do here that he simply can't reform from?

Originally posted by iceman24567
The internal strife is part of the Void/Sentry character

But not at the extent of it affecting his combat effectiveness. Otherwise, it'd be quite not at "full capacity", IMO.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
But not at the extent of it affecting his combat effectiveness. Otherwise, it'd be quite not at "full capacity", IMO.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Eternals can reform from molecules, yes. But the time it would take for them to do sk would indicatd a forum KO.

Most trans+ beings that have powers beyond physical attacks would be able to defeat the Void, yes. But, logically speaking, what's the worst SBP punching him or blasting him with HV can do here that he simply can't reform from?

He can punch him so hard his past history is erased. He could punch him MANY TIMES harder than WWH did, and about 1,000 times faster (being overly conservative) until Void runs out of energy and then snap Bob's neck. He can take him by the throat and toss him into a black hole. He can reform inside that all he wants.

SBP survived a blast that destroyed a universe. A suicide attack from a Guardian only BFR'ed him. He's taken full blasts from skyfathers. He's fought dozens of insanely powerful heralds all at once, and a pre-crisis kryptonian and won without looking any worse for wear.

The real question is what can Void do to Prime?

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yes but he still has to fight in character internal strife and all

Well, I agree with that. Tho, in his latter appearances, Sentry was shown to be almost merged with his Void persona. :-p

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
it looked like the Sentry and Void were one in the same in Siege. IMO it would be more accurate to say Bob and Void weren't in cahoots. If an incredible amount of energy reverts Void back to Bob, and then Bob's throat is snapped, I don't think Void comes back, as he is dependent on Bob. SBP could potentially punch Void so hard he changes his history so he never even took the serum and was never created. It's highly doubtful that Void could even HIT a guy who can keep up with the Flashes in speed either.

No they weren't. Void was in complete control as to why when Sentry returned into being.....completely healthy he looked in terror at the chaos Void had created. Upon Void removal Sentry returns completely normal.
When Morgan Le Fey tore Sentry in half he returned a 5 secs later behind her and tore her in half.

The weren't in cahoots. If this fight was simply DEFEAT PRIME. Sentry could refrom wherever he wants and before returning start doing some particle manipulation on Prime before he returns. Because that's what an angry Sentry does.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Doesn't a KO require at least some form of incapacity for the character, tho? Being pinched to bits only to reform a second later wouldn't count as a KO to me.

Also, as this is assumed to be characters fighting at their best shouldn't it also be assumed that there is no internal strife between Void and the Sentry happenong during the fight?

I thought by forum rules any degree of battle KO means KO even if only for 5 secs.

Originally posted by the ninjak
No they weren't. Void was in complete control as to why when Sentry returned into being.....completely healthy he looked in terror at the chaos Void had created. Upon Void removal Sentry returns completely normal.
When Morgan Le Fey tore Sentry in half he returned a 5 secs later behind her and tore her in half.

The weren't in cahoots. If this fight was simply DEFEAT PRIME. Sentry could refrom wherever he wants and before returning start doing some particle manipulation on Prime before he returns. Because that's what an angry Sentry does.

I thought by forum rules any degree of battle KO means KO even if only for 5 secs.

Particle manipulation has failed against both Superman and Prime. Go to the Superman respect thread and see how well it works against him. Then imagine how little it will affect a guy 10-20 times more durable than him.

Also, I should add, Sersi reformed in a couple of panels from being demolecularized.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
He can punch him so hard his past history is erased. He could punch him MANY TIMES harder than WWH did, and about 1,000 times faster (being overly conservative) until Void runs out of energy and then snap Bob's neck. He can take him by the throat and toss him into a black hole. He can reform inside that all he wants.

SBP survived a blast that destroyed a universe. A suicide attack from a Guardian only BFR'ed him. He's taken full blasts from skyfathers. He's fought dozens of insanely powerful heralds all at once, and a pre-crisis kryptonian and won without looking any worse for wear.

The real question is what can Void do to Prime?

Morgan Le Fey already tried to erase his history (or at leadt it was implied that she did), IIRC. This isn't WWH-Sentry, draining him out of energy thru physical damage won't work. Also. He's been shown to transport himself in order to reform (see Dark Avenger) so I don't think BFR would work either.

Again, never said Bob wins here, just wanna know how pp who dol are imagining Prime beating him.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Particle manipulation has failed against both Superman and Prime. Go to the Superman respect thread and see how well it works against him. Then imagine how little it will affect a guy 10-20 times more durable than him.

Blah. I already gave Prime the win. My arguments are against the opinions you brought earlier in regards to the nature of the Sentry.

Read above quotes. You wrote Sentry and Void where in cahoots....they weren't. Sentry just gave himself over to him.

My point is you can't erase Sentry unless Sentry wants to be erased.

And Nibedicus, you rock.