Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.5 War and Kain X Link and Bayonetta

Originally posted by BloodRain
Nothing to do with teleporting. How can physical force be counted in teportation?

Seeing as I'd rather take the simpler options, the kind of feat that we use here all the time, than a complex one requiring more assumptions. So no, not ignoring, its doing what we always for. Well... don't really care about peoples opinions in a debate so who cares. Only thing is the topic, where I follow the simple, logical and most likely for the verse. Not like anyone else was gonna get the weight, which is the only thing in question.

Well thats if we go and assume that she doesn't have the strength to move Temp. Though personally Id use the results that Occam and Newton suggest. Also find it odd how you give her a strength 60x Raz' while her area is 25x his yet its classed as a inferior feat. While we're here, did you give an answer about Kains durability as Raziel was able to rip into his chest? Because the place the Reaver cut didnt cause the entry wound of his fist/claws, so it was all Raziel.

Official quotes say he cant, gameplay says he cant, no scene or anything else says he can besides what you think he can do.. so yeah, gonna need some evidence as so far all we've had is opinions. A cutscene would be nice.

An objects physical mass/force is still constant even if its not moving, if desnest/strongest object that fills a space is the most dominant.

Your not making anything simple, your making your feat sound better because trying to deduce the weight of Temp based on size and materials would take so many assumptions more than simply doing what I just did, calculate the energy in the moving Tanker which gives you what it requires to knock down Temp, you still confuse weight required to move an object with the weight required to knock an object off something such as propulsion. if you dont care about peoples opinions then why did you complain about them in the last post? Everyone claims that so trying to pretend your always more logical and giving the most likely answer is pointless.

She moved temp with the energy from her+oil tanker, so were not assuming anything, all the energy is accounted for you just seem to belive it requires more than it actually does. Occam suggests nothing because its a theory not an answer and furthermore I have found the route that requires the least assumptions, trying to math the weight and energy of an oil tanker whch afterall is actually real and has real weights concerning it is far easier than mathing Temp. Her final energy was higher than Raz but the energy in knocking down Temp was over a large area, Raziel uses the tiniest area but as I showed in my working I condensed the energy into the area of Shuraba her katana. The place the reaver struck was what weakened/damaged Kain enough to be weak against Raziels claws, in a slash no less meaning the reaver has perhaps over a million tonnes more force than Raziels claws, think of it this way. If I had a sheet of metal and I melted its face (the reaver striking Kain) to the point where it was soft, I could (ignoring the heat a human hand could not survive) punch through the soft/melted liquid metal.

No, gameplay says he cant, official quotes on gameplay controls say he cannot control sarafan etc, thats the same as saying Kratos cannot one shot zombies and centaur. Youve seen the cutscene of Marcus, youve seen the evidence that Vampires evolve over time, Kain>Marcus in every way.

This is solved this argument, Bayonetta cannot harm Kain with her weapons so Kain simply kills her from his choice of ability.

Alright then.. ''desnest/strongest object that fills a space is the most dominant.'' Proof, facts and evidence then. Burden of proof.

Orly? What sounds more simple to you, this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock Temp back who is partly made of rock'' or this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock the tanker back which broke Temp's propulsion system, who is made of something lighter than rock, causing it to get knocked back under its own devices''? And for what reason would I want to make a Bayonetta feat sound better? lol how many assumptions is 'thats its volume, and density is rock and other shiz'? Think ya messed up. If someone gets annoyed, 3 claps for them. The annoyance is the debating tactic of avoiding things or agreeing with illogical ideas so their fav character doesn't lose. [Unless you find a lightning-timing Link, universe busting Goku or a less than 1 tonner Akuma to be logical points]

Her+tanker is not how we gather force. Its result=her. It says we should go with the theory that requires less assumptions, and since the start my only assumptions was that its made of marble which I halved for fairness. Anything else came after and from what you think I should do. Her final energy, even by your standards, compared to Raziel's is still >> the difference than her blade and the Reaver's cutting force. (w/o Pillow Talk that is) And no, by the area it was a min of 50x the claws. Thats an odd analogy right thar.. a cut doesnt soften up the flesh. Anyhow we see the blood from the cut coming from the right abdominal area [right hypochondriac region], Raziel shoved his hand just under Kain's sternum. The two places at best hardly cross. Even less likely as the for this idea to work his claws would have to precisely dig into the the Reavers wound, which didnt happen.

Quotes+gameplay>opinion. How it that even remotely the same? No quotes say Kratos can't shred a human and the cutscenes even show him being able to do more so. The only thing is gameplay until a QTE is activated. How is it the same when Kratos has been shown to do these things where Kain has not? Cutscene of Marcus doing what? All Ive seen is him controlling some people from afar.. I fail to see how this comes close to showing it working on aggros and/or non-weak minds like what was asked of you to provide.

Sure. If we assume that Bayonetta can at best move a tanker, that Raziel's claws didn't stab Kain, that he can teleport into people, charm whatever he wants and that her superior time powers don't work on Kain for some unknown reason.. then yeah, whatever is she to do... Alternatively Bay slows down time and performs her skyscraper head-butt to Kain's head.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Alright then.. ''desnest/strongest object that fills a space is the most dominant.'' Proof, facts and evidence then. Burden of proof.

Orly? What sounds more simple to you, this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock Temp back who is partly made of rock'' or this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock the tanker back which broke Temp's propulsion system, who is made of something lighter than rock, causing it to get knocked back under its own devices''? And for what reason would I want to make a Bayonetta feat sound better? lol how many assumptions is 'thats its volume, and density is rock and other shiz'? Think ya messed up. If someone gets annoyed, 3 claps for them. The annoyance is the debating tactic of avoiding things or agreeing with illogical ideas so their fav character doesn't lose. [Unless you find a lightning-timing Link, universe busting Goku or a less than 1 tonner Akuma to be logical points]

Her+tanker is not how we gather force. Its result=her. It says we should go with the theory that requires less assumptions, and since the start my only assumptions was that its made of marble which I halved for fairness. Anything else came after and from what you think I should do. Her final energy, even by your standards, compared to Raziel's is still >> the difference than her blade and the Reaver's cutting force. (w/o Pillow Talk that is) And no, by the area it was a min of 50x the claws. Thats an odd analogy right thar.. a cut doesnt soften up the flesh. Anyhow we see the blood from the cut coming from the right abdominal area [right hypochondriac region], Raziel shoved his hand just under Kain's sternum. The two places at best hardly cross. Even less likely as the for this idea to work his claws would have to precisely dig into the the Reavers wound, which didnt happen.

Quotes+gameplay>opinion. How it that even remotely the same? No quotes say Kratos can't shred a human and the cutscenes even show him being able to do more so. The only thing is gameplay until a QTE is activated. How is it the same when Kratos has been shown to do these things where Kain has not? Cutscene of Marcus doing what? All Ive seen is him controlling some people from afar.. I fail to see how this comes close to showing it working on aggros and/or non-weak minds like what was asked of you to provide.

Sure. If we assume that Bayonetta can at best move a tanker, that Raziel's claws didn't stab Kain, that he can teleport into people, charm whatever he wants and that her superior time powers don't work on Kain for some unknown reason.. then yeah, whatever is she to do... Alternatively Bay slows down time and performs her skyscraper head-butt to Kain's head.

You see it in teleportation all the time, Kain fills an area and his form is more domindant against what is in the area he fills. Your argueing semantics now...

😆 you listing things to make them sound as long as you possibly can does not make it more simple, I can do it too; more simple: "Bays force/energy was enough to knock Temp down through the use of the oil tanker and angel" which is what we see OR "Bay used some unkown strength to launch the angel, which threw the tanker, which had to defeat the unkown weight of temp who is density A, volume B=weight C which are all really unkown without calc the tanker. Your other assumptions also include how your "sensible" deductions and "sensible math" based on compomises that are also assumptions like materials Temp is made from are worth using, my calc does it all using the weights of real world items.

My calculation gives us the overall joules, e.g energy going through the entire equation. Which is mine, which makes zero assumptions at the moment now since I dont have to even weigh tempentia to know how much force was required to knock him down. Her final energy is at best 1000 tonnes, Raziel can do 13000 and failed with that on Kains body. This was not just a cut, the wraith blade is not just a sword you missed the point that the slash weakened Kains body enough for it to happen, proof for this? the Soul reaver 2 intro FMV so you trying to argue Raziel can cut Kain is proven wrong, whats proven right is that Kain requires that weakening from the Soul reaver.

Quotes from gameplay mechanics+gameplay mechanics> actual storyline and logic I think you meant to claim. And the cutscenes show Marcus using the power Kain has 1000 more evolution on in this matchup which is not required, the little Kain has shown in Blood omen 2>>bayonettas current resistance.

You not understanding the calculations is clearly the problem here now, the velocity she made the tanker go is her input in the overall energy, the velocity+tanker was all thats required to gain the energy to knock temp down as we have seen, no assumptions, clear answer. Her time powers have yet to work on anyone apprently, I have yet to see it happen. not sure if she could do that since it takes the same magic/concentration, I dont think I have seen her combine stopping time on someone and using all her magical abilities at once which come from the same source of power. Although, I highly doubt that force will come to much considering the "stone, steel and glass" and what not that makes up the scraper were not damaged so I wonder if she used force to send it flying or magic, I would go with the latter although I am glad your veering away from this whole Tempentia lost cause of an argument.

What teleporting demonstrates this?

Actually I was listing the base points and assumptions, not making things up like your latter example. Ah so because we dont know 100% what its made of its unquantifiable? Same can be said for 9/10 feats calced here. ''Sensible'' is saying its its based of marble [main thing we see] and a low density material inside.

Seeing as more specific calcs are wanted I guess I'll go back to the obelisk feat without the assumptions I gave in Raz's favour. For the first time I calc'd it I assumed that Raziel was a tad smaller than height as Kain [183cm/6ft] at 180cm. Now I worked out that Raz is a good deal shorter than Kain, who is actually 190cm(6ft3in), at 175cm. The pyramid tips height=length=Raziel's height, V=1,786,458.33*2.6=5.12tons. The base of the obelisk is 2x his height at 350cm[originally 360cm]. The height is about 4x the base, also confirmed by the smaller obelisks that have 3.5 with their 2m base and 7m height, for 1400cm[originally used 2000m for literally no reason other than it appeared larger]. Last time I calced it as a cuboid for not having the correct formals, now I have it. Right pyramidal frustum V=⅓h(a1+a2+(√a1*a2)) h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square. V=100553251cm3*2.6= 288.187tons + tip = 293.307 tons. Due to a friends way of calcing that gets a slightly higher number so I'll bump it up to 300 tons. So a 300 ton strength feat giving Raz a lift force of 0.272MJ, half that for a single arm is 0.136MJ. Compared to Bayonetta's single arm force of, and from your 40 tons at 43m/s tanker figures, 33.55MJ. Maybe I skimmed over the part where the area of Bay's blade is 250x larger than that of Raziel's claws when its only 50x larger than one of the points. Adding to the fact that she'd be using two hands she'll have 500x the force Raz was hitting Kain with.. and in no way are both his claw tips 1/500th the size of her 2in hit point of her blade. (Smaller for maths talk)
Yeah SR2 intro doesn't discredit him getting his heart ripped out. Nor does it explain how it made it easier to stab Kain when it didnt even hit the same place.

What storyline shows this? What logic based on things we've seen shows this? Thats all well and good.. except that you were asked to provide a cutscene of him using it on the 2 limitations, not him him using it in general.

Oh yeah, Im sure thats the problem here. This is just the basic tactic when a strength is above Raziels, like with the OoTPiller. So by your logic the energy of a 40 ton lorry at 40m/s can make a 10/35/70k ton mass 20m/s? Because even if the 'propulsion' broke the initial force was still enough to send t horizontal, horizontal=broken propulsion. Yeah, it does. Havnt seen it? Thats exactly what she does with the skyscraper.. uses Witch Time + full charge. She used an unknown force or magic talent to send it back?... Not the headbutt we clearly see? Its worse then when Moo said Dante made the raindrops stop moving with some special power. Its a skyscraper. It was sent flying. She charged up and hit it. End of. Whether she used magic or whatever doesnt change the fact that she generated the force to send it flying back. Im not veering away from anything, one is charge strength and the other is non-charged, you saying its a lost cause does not make it so~

Originally posted by BloodRain
What teleporting demonstrates this?

Actually I was listing the base points and assumptions, not making things up like your latter example. Ah so because we dont know 100% what its made of its unquantifiable? Same can be said for 9/10 feats calced here. ''Sensible'' is saying its its based of marble [main thing we see] and a low density material inside.

Seeing as more specific calcs are wanted I guess I'll go back to the obelisk feat without the assumptions I gave in Raz's favour. For the first time I calc'd it I assumed that Raziel was a tad smaller than height as Kain [183cm/6ft] at 180cm. Now I worked out that Raz is a good deal shorter than Kain, who is actually 190cm(6ft3in), at 175cm. The pyramid tips height=length=Raziel's height, V=1,786,458.33*2.6=5.12tons. The base of the obelisk is 2x his height at 350cm[originally 360cm]. The height is about 4x the base, also confirmed by the smaller obelisks that have 3.5 with their 2m base and 7m height, for 1400cm[originally used 2000m for literally no reason other than it appeared larger]. Last time I calced it as a cuboid for not having the correct formals, now I have it. Right pyramidal frustum V=⅓h(a1+a2+(√a1*a2)) h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square. V=100553251cm3*2.6= 288.187tons + tip = 293.307 tons. Due to a friends way of calcing that gets a slightly higher number so I'll bump it up to 300 tons. So a 300 ton strength feat giving Raz a lift force of 0.272MJ, half that for a single arm is 0.136MJ. Compared to Bayonetta's single arm force of, and from your 40 tons at 43m/s tanker figures, 33.55MJ. Maybe I skimmed over the part where the area of Bay's blade is 250x larger than that of Raziel's claws when its only 50x larger than one of the points. Adding to the fact that she'd be using two hands she'll have 500x the force Raz was hitting Kain with.. and in no way are both his claw tips 1/500th the size of her 2in hit point of her blade. (Smaller for maths talk)
Yeah SR2 intro doesn't discredit him getting his heart ripped out. Nor does it explain how it made it easier to stab Kain when it didnt even hit the same place.

What storyline shows this? What logic based on things we've seen shows this? Thats all well and good.. except that you were asked to provide a cutscene of him using it on the 2 limitations, not him him using it in general.

Oh yeah, Im sure thats the problem here. This is just the basic tactic when a strength is above Raziels, like with the OoTPiller. So by your logic the energy of a 40 ton lorry at 40m/s can make a 10/35/70k ton mass 20m/s? Because even if the 'propulsion' broke the initial force was still enough to send t horizontal, horizontal=broken propulsion. Yeah, it does. Havnt seen it? Thats exactly what she does with the skyscraper.. uses Witch Time + full charge. She used an unknown force or magic talent to send it back?... Not the headbutt we clearly see? Its worse then when Moo said Dante made the raindrops stop moving with some special power. Its a skyscraper. It was sent flying. She charged up and hit it. End of. Whether she used magic or whatever doesnt change the fact that she generated the force to send it flying back. Im not veering away from anything, one is charge strength and the other is non-charged, you saying its a lost cause does not make it so~

All teleporting requires you to fill the mass of a specific space.

What did I "make up?". No silly, I have found the quantity with my own calc, it just took calcing something we know the weight of.

I know your bitter but trying to re-calc the obelisk with the smallest figuires you can find imaginable and cutting it down by 400 tonnes is not going to convince me of anything, you can show me the calculations behind mathing a pyramid however and you can show me Raziel and Kain side my side so you can "guess" at their differences in height so I know where your coming from because Raziel is not "that" much shorter than Kain at all, hes just hunched a lot of the time. I will for lulz calc the 300 tonnes for Raz because I would probably still find it a more impressive if not equelly impressive feat as Bayonettas. Yes it does, it shows Raziel at full strength hitting Kain at full strength, using more than just one arm but his whole body (minus his free arm I guess) to spring into the attack several times...Kain stands undamaged without even a scratch.

Marcus and the storyline that states how vampires evolve over time hence how older ones are stronger, all of that plus the fact Kain gains the vampires dark gift, nothing about a weakened version>>>gameplay mechanics taken from an instruction manuel, I can do that with Kratos, afterall he has to press circle only afterweakening a beast before he can mount it apprently 😉 Why the limitations? your talking silly now because your going to ask me to find a video of him mind controlling animals next? or some other irrelevency, this is a red herring sir.....

Clearly otherwise you would understand we have the calc already, you just dont like it hence your bitter "snarky" comments. What make a calculation that makes no assumptions and gets a correct figuire? The 10/35/70k tons is all your figuires based off a list of "sensible" assumptions according to you, I am using real units of measurement without having to guess. I still cant see if shes actually headbutting it or moving her head in its direction just before it hits her otherwise the scrapers body would be damaged and no its not really unknown since we can see the talent there and then. Trying to comapre two events completly apart is redundant. of course your veering away, and no me "saying" it does not make it so, me proving you wrong with a assumptionless calculation does.

Our claim: Kain cannot control aggressive people or those who are not weak minded.

Evidence for this claim: The game itself and direct manual quotes.

Your claim: Kain can control anything.

Evidence for this claim: Conjecture and assumptions from the fact that vampires evolve.

The problem with this being, your claim is essentially unsupported. Please show us Kain's Charm ability evolving, or even him using it ever again. If you want to make this claim, why not show us an evolved ability? Can Kain read minds? Marcus could read minds, but Kain can't, so that indicates Kain is still not as powerful as Marcus, unless you can offer definitive proof that this particular ability evolved any further.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Our claim: Kain cannot control aggressive people or those who are not weak minded.

Evidence for this claim: The gameplay mechanics within the game as well as gameplay control instructions from the manuel just like how every character in gameplay mechanics has to "weaken" or do another context sensitive action that does not make sense considering canon powers.

Your claim: Kain can control Bayonetta and anyone without mental protection feats.

Evidence for this claim: Bayonetta has no feats or any more ability to resist than the humans Kain controls and those that Marcus dominates.

The problem with this being, your claim is essentially unsupported. Please show us Kain's Charm ability evolving, or even him using it ever again. If you want to make this claim, why not show us an evolved ability? Can Kain read minds? Marcus could read minds, but Kain can't, so that indicates Kain is still not as powerful as Marcus, unless you can offer definitive proof that this particular ability evolved any further.

Its supported by the actual canon and lore, the abilities of vampires as well as the vampires themselves evolve over time as well as the same evidence from the manuel thats not from the "gameplay controls" area;

"Since only Vampires possess Dark Gifts, draining their life force allows Kain to absorb their Dark Gift" Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. (Eidos Interactive). (2002)

Your case rests on nothing but a gameplay mechanic control system/balance that is up against the logic behind the powers, what kain gains from them and how he evolves and how powers for these vampires evolve in general. The fact we dont see him use the power does not mean it is not there although Kain also gains memories and thoughts by drinking other peoples blood, hes not done that to those hes questioned since Blood omen 1, this does not mean to say he simply cannot or has lost that ability.

I answered your post by amending it in several areas. Its irrelevant anyway, you are holding onto this as if mind control is Kains only way of winning or if its his only tactical option, he has many more. Bay is not the only one with time powers.

Editing quotes is possibly one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen you do. The fact that you claim to have "amended" it is just insulting. In any case:

Its supported by the actual canon and lore, the abilities of vampires as well as the vampires themselves evolve over time as well as the same evidence from the manuel thats not from the "gameplay controls" area;

'k, the things you need to prove being that:
-all vampire abilities evolve
-Charm in particular has evolved
-evolution automatically means the ability gets stronger
-an evolved ability disregards stated limits

So...yeah. Give me some proof that Charm does what you say it does. All you currently have is guesswork. Go ahead and prove the above assertions, all of which you have claimed as part of your argument.

Your case rests on nothing but a gameplay mechanic control system/balance that is up against the logic behind the powers, what kain gains from them and how he evolves and how powers for these vampires evolve in general. The fact we dont see him use the power does not mean it is not there although Kain also gains memories and thoughts by drinking other peoples blood, hes not done that to those hes questioned since Blood omen 1, this does not mean to say he simply cannot or has lost that ability.

And your case rests on nothing, period. We see Kain using the ability and what it's limits are. We have these limits further described by the manual. Your claim is that Kain has evolved past these limits, and you have no evidence for this. If you're so sure of this evolution, I'm sure you'll have no trouble proving it? Show me Kain's abilities evolving, then show me Charm, specifically, evolving, and then you can show me Charm's evolution bypassing the limits that canon has imposed on it.

Claiming "gameplay" fails specifically because there's nothing else to go on. If you have a cutscene or statement that says Kain's use of Charm is not subject to the limits that the game and manual have imposed on it, by all means go ahead and post it. Until you do that, Kain can't affect aggressive people or those not specifically designated to be "weak minded." That's really all there is to it: prove it stop making claims.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Editing quotes is possibly one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen you do. The fact that you claim to have "amended" it is just insulting. In any case:

'k, the things you need to prove being that:
-all vampire abilities evolve
-Charm in particular has evolved
-evolution automatically means the ability gets stronger
-an evolved ability disregards stated limits

So...yeah. Give me some proof that Charm does what you say it does. All you currently have is guesswork. Go ahead and prove the above assertions, all of which you have claimed as part of your argument.

And your case rests on nothing, period. We see Kain using the ability and what it's limits are. We have these limits further described by the manual. Your claim is that Kain has evolved past these limits, and you have no evidence for this. If you're so sure of this evolution, I'm sure you'll have no trouble proving it? Show me Kain's abilities evolving, then show me Charm, specifically, evolving, and then you can show me Charm's evolution bypassing the limits that canon has imposed on it.

Claiming "gameplay" fails specifically because there's nothing else to go on. If you have a cutscene or statement that says Kain's use of Charm is not subject to the limits that the game and manual have imposed on it, by all means go ahead and post it. Until you do that, Kain can't affect aggressive people or those not specifically designated to be "weak minded." That's really all there is to it: prove it stop making claims.

I think your audacity of listing my argument in a way I never presented it to try and attack my point is an insult that had to be countered with another disrespectful act. Although to be fair, I would have simply corrected you in my following post anyway so its easier to directly change what you said.

I would not have to prove a particulour ability has evolved if all of them have been stated as generally advancing and Marcus shows us how the longer he has the ability it has become more powerful, the general idea of nosgoth vampires is that they grow stronger with age as do the gifts, you already know all this the only thing i have not shown you are specific things like charm evolving which I dont need to do at the moment since youve yet to prove bay has any resistances. I think its hilarious how you ignore all of my requests and think your important enough to demand them yourself.

No my evidence is shown, Kain has absorbed marcus' dark gift, its as simple as that. Your claim that its somehow a watered down version unlike pretty much all the other Dark gifts gain Kains being equel to what their users had is based around the instructions in a gameplay manuel.

oh but theres a ton to go on, like Marcus' use of the Dark gift Kain now has, your belief is that Kains is weaker than what Marcus has purely because the gameplay mechanic claims Kain cannot mind control certain enemies within the game. Gameplay mechanics being completly ignored kinda ruins your "argument" or lack therof.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I think your audacity of listing my argument in a way I never presented it to try and attack my point is an insult that had to be countered with another disrespectful act. Although to be fair, I would have simply corrected you in my following post anyway so its easier to directly change what you said.

Then I apologize; it wasn't meant to be offensive.

I would not have to prove a particulour ability has evolved if all of them have been stated as generally advancing and Marcus shows us how the longer he has the ability it has become more powerful, the general idea of nosgoth vampires is that they grow stronger with age as do the gifts, you already know all this the only thing i have not shown you are specific things like charm evolving which I dont need to do at the moment since youve yet to prove bay has any resistances. I think its hilarious how you ignore all of my requests and think your important enough to demand them yourself.

I don't think I need to prove Bayonetta's resistance, since I'm not claiming she can resist. What I am doing is trying to dispute your claim that Kain's abilities extend beyond what canon actually says he can do. Bayonetta still qualifies as an "aggressor" under the canon manual description of the Gift.

You still need to prove that Charm evolving means it isn't subject to the given limits. Simply saying "it evolved" is not enough unless you you have some way of quantifying this evolution and giving some indication it suddenly started affecting the aggressive or strong minded.

No my evidence is shown, Kain has absorbed marcus' dark gift, its as simple as that. Your claim that its somehow a watered down version unlike pretty much all the other Dark gifts gain Kains being equel to what their users had is based around the instructions in a gameplay manuel.

Yeah, and there's no indication at all that Kain's version is as good as Marcus'.
-Kain can't control aggressive or average minded people.
-Kain can't read minds.
-Kain can't jump as far as Faustus.
-Kain can't run on walls or move as fast as Sebastian.
-Kain can't use immolate as well as Magnus.

There's nothing to indicate that he can do the same things as the vampires just because he absorbed their veins. He gets a similar power that in all cases is, in fact, "watered down," and there is nothing in the game that even hints at Kain being able to perform the same feats.

oh but theres a ton to go on, like Marcus' use of the Dark gift Kain now has, your belief is that Kains is weaker than what Marcus has purely because the gameplay mechanic claims Kain cannot mind control certain enemies within the game. Gameplay mechanics being completly ignored kinda ruins your "argument" or lack therof.

No, it's mostly because Kain does not display most of the abilities Marcus uses, like mind reading and invisibility, indicating that he's got a weaker ability. Over a thousand years later and Kain has shown a complete lack of these abilities, evolved or otherwise. The only thing you could make a case for improving or evolving would probably be his TK, but he got that from a Hylden, not a vampire.

I would agree that gameplay is a poor substitute for cutscene and actual canon, but the lack of evidence really puts a damper on your own argument more. You'd be hard pressed to prove any of these abilities do anything, seeing as they're all featless.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then I apologize; it wasn't meant to be offensive.

I don't think I need to prove Bayonetta's resistance, since I'm not claiming she can resist. What I am doing is trying to dispute your claim that Kain's abilities extend beyond what canon actually says he can do. Bayonetta still qualifies as an "aggressor" under the canon manual description of the Gift.

You still need to prove that Charm evolving means it isn't subject to the given limits. Simply saying "it evolved" is not enough unless you you have some way of quantifying this evolution and giving some indication it suddenly started affecting the aggressive or strong minded.

Yeah, and there's no indication at all that Kain's version is as good as Marcus'.
-Kain can't control aggressive or average minded people.
-Kain can't read minds.
-Kain can't jump as far as Faustus.
-Kain can't run on walls or move as fast as Sebastian.
-Kain can't use immolate as well as Magnus.

There's nothing to indicate that he can do the same things as the vampires just because he absorbed their veins. He gets a similar power that in all cases is, in fact, "watered down," and there is nothing in the game that even hints at Kain being able to perform the same feats.

No, it's mostly because Kain does not display most of the abilities Marcus uses, like mind reading and invisibility, indicating that he's got a weaker ability. Over a thousand years later and Kain has shown a complete lack of these abilities, evolved or otherwise. The only thing you could make a case for improving or evolving would probably be his TK, but he got that from a Hylden, not a vampire.

I would agree that gameplay is a poor substitute for cutscene and actual canon, but the lack of evidence really puts a damper on your own argument more. You'd be hard pressed to prove any of these abilities do anything, seeing as they're all featless.

Fair enough, I apologise as I was simply tired of posting the same way.

Thats not a canon manuel description, thats a gameplay mechanic description suggesting you cannot mind control enemies in the game. Just like how the God of War 3 manuel says you have to "weaken" beasts before you can mount them by pressing a context sensitive button. Theres no indication outside of a gameplay mechanic/description or logic for that matter that would suggest someone wanting to harm Kain has some extra resistance to having his mind entered, it does not even sound like it makes sense.

As marcus says, his powers have increased drastically since he was last seen by Kain, most of the old lieutenants claim to have gained in power, and Kain takes those gifts. Why would Kain taking the gift from marcus lose the power of marcus'? or have to start from the beginning? it does not make sense, I would simply agree that anyone with more mental resistance than a human could defeat the MC.

Kain can read minds already before Marcus with this quote from the Blood omen 1 script:

Kain battles a man-at-arms, and reads his mind as he lays dying. He sees Moebius standing at the top of a flight of stairs lined with armoured troops and burning braziers, addressing a crowd of peasants. The scene is reminiscent of the Nuremburg rallies with towering banners and finery of the Nosgoth of 50 years ago.

Also I would like to see your calculated comparisons on that because last time I looked, Kain can jump just as far, if not further than Faustus. Hell I think even the gap across the bridge Kain has to get across to continue may be further than we see faustus jump.

Kain did not run on walls, but his dark gift in the game is an incredibly quick attack of the hands.

Yes he can, he thinks and his opponent burns, thats all there is to it really isnt there if youve seen the ability. If your talking about the fact Kain does not bust statues (iirc he does not) like magnus then thats not evidence of him not being able to, only that I would have to point to the fact Dark gifts as they are will be absorbed. When it comes to something like an action you belive a character needs to do before you agree they can do it first wonder if they would do it even if they had the power like the relationship between abosrbing Dark gifts and their predessors suggests.

Kain does not have to display anything when its clearly outlined Kain takes the "dark gift" of his opponent, the fact the gameplay mechanic in charm is limited means nothing since its not even accounted for. Take mind reading in Blood omen 1, Kains not actually used it for years, that does not give any evidence to suggest hes somehow lost it but simply that hes not used it like some of these powers.

A cutscene is not the only form of canon, infact the storyline behind how Kain gains the Dark gifts of his fallen enemies makes their feats his own unless its specifically stated somewhere he gets a "watered down" version. You cannot argue he does have a weaker version just because he did not run up a wall, or mind control a sewer thug just like how I cannot claim Kratos has problems ripping a centaur in half just because the game requires them to be weakened before you can do it. This is completly ignored regardless of what other feats Kratos has since even if he had no feats at all like you belive Kain has (since you dont want to agree with the dark gift=the feat from its previous user) we still could not use the fact he needs to weaken something before cutting its stomach open.

Specific examples of teleporting solid mass into solid mass? And do you have any proof that being dense would allow it to take the shape, or that the 'porting mass wont just fail at taking over the space?

So because we don't know the exact weight we cant use it? With that attitude any and every feat that cant be done or isn't irl cant be accepted.

Oh I'm sure I'm bitter cos my favorite is losing to my hated character.. Hang on.. I prefer Kain over Bayonetta.. so guess not. Its just calcing, like always. Like Ive said to you and several others here, getting personal with a debate has nothing to do with the debate itself. You wanted to get technical, so I got technical. All the measurements have been measured and are move precise than my last guess. Already showed the calculations and Kain is 1.1x Raziels height, even went and got the same result in-game to compare, just under Kain's eye level. 300 is the total, single arm would be near half that. Already found out the answer using your method of -(convert joules to ft/lb to in/lb)/area=result- above. (Btw use the US tons, not Brit tonnes. Makes it easier to compare when most calcs are in tons) Raziel's '300' ton lift gives 200734.195 psf, as psi thats 1393.987467424/ area of 0.0016 = 871242.167 lbs # 436 tons. Compare that to the 1162.7 tons you gave Bayonetta for a slash.. 2.6667x more force. Try doing the same comparison factoring in; Raziel's single arm strength used(less for Raz), Bay's two armed strength(more for Bay), stabbing with the very tip[0.0016in2] of her sword(more for Bay) and if she uses Pillow Talk(more for Bay), and you'll get a figure far more in Bay's favour.
Yet when it gets down to an intentional pierce we have Raziel stabbing Kain with his claws, with the area the Reaver hit not intercepting the cut at all. Thats 1 hitting scene against and 1 stabbing scene for. Would be a stalemate if it wasn't for the definitive showing of him getting stabbed.

So in other words no evidence to provide? Thats all speculative theory, we want cold hard facts and evidence. Bad comparison as we have a treasure trove of cutscenes involving Kratos having extreme strength, scenes Kain does not have. In fact, if Kratos had none of his high cutscene/QTE strength feats and the only thing we had to base his strength on was gameplay of him putting effort into ripping a Centaur apart then it couldnt be argued that his strength was any higher as we wouldnt have scenes to say so. But we do. Reading what you said to Scenario the base of your argument is based off should. Kain should have the same effect as Marcus despite quotes, gameplay and that afaik Marcus has never done so himself. Charm should be stronger by Defiance even if its never been shown to be. Like how Dante2 should be massively faster than Dante3 compared to his other skills [like strength increasing a thousand-fold by then] but it doesnt give me the right to claim that he's Mach1500 with this. O.o do you even know what a Red Herring is? Because asking for you to show proof against something stated is in no way irrelevant or unrelated to the point.

Please stop comparing getting tired of people twisting things to a pregnant girl getting hormonal. Unless you were to get ban-worth offensive I wont be changing my core debate style. And the tanker thing is all your figures.. point? Agreed to her Witch Time working? Oh dear...''I still cant see if shes actually headbutting it or moving her head in its direction just before it hits her'' for the sake of taking you seriously please say you were joking just now 😐 If not thats a large assumption in the face of visual evidence with a lack of any previous skill like what you're thinking.(which btw even if she did some magic power to knock a skyscraper back without touching it, that power could be applied to this fight either way) Redundant? Ones for normal combat ones for charged attacks. Oh I see, you're psychic and know what Im thinking before I do myself.. Its called discussing two points at once, kinda what we've been doing all along. Your calcs dont show the force required to throw a large mass at that speed, because with or without that propulsion assumption you would still have to have that force necessary. 35 ton force would not send 10k tons 20m/s back like it did. Propulsion or not, it still requires the force.

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Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats not a canon manuel description, thats a gameplay mechanic description suggesting you cannot mind control enemies in the game. Just like how the God of War 3 manuel says you have to "weaken" beasts before you can mount them by pressing a context sensitive button. Theres no indication outside of a gameplay mechanic/description or logic for that matter that would suggest someone wanting to harm Kain has some extra resistance to having his mind entered, it does not even sound like it makes sense.

A quote from the manual is not a "canon manual description" now? And it does not "suggest" anything, it outright states that Kain can only control non-aggressive characters. Here it is again:

"All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power. In Charm mode, Kain is able to take complete control of another character and move him or her around a certain distance. Press the Dark Gift button to enter Charm mode and...aim the cursor at the character you want to control. Once a character is selected, press the Dark Gift button again to Charm. Kain can use this power to make characters do things that would not normally be able to do."Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. pg15 (Eidos Interactive). (2002)

"All non-aggressive characters." And I hate to copy BloodRain's ideas, but I've got to agree with him here. Kratos has additional support for his feats beyond the game, while Kain does not. All you are doing is assuming Kain can do more than is shown.

As marcus says, his powers have increased drastically since he was last seen by Kain, most of the old lieutenants claim to have gained in power, and Kain takes those gifts. Why would Kain taking the gift from marcus lose the power of marcus'? or have to start from the beginning? it does not make sense, I would simply agree that anyone with more mental resistance than a human could defeat the MC.

Was it stated that stolen Dark Gifts evolve? All the other vampires evolved their powers naturally over, what, 200 years? Meanwhile, there is precedent for Kain losing his powers, as he lost nearly all of them after getting the heck beaten out of him and going into a coma. I don't know if he lost them again, but hey. Hmm, I wonder if Dark Gift atrophy with disuse? Meh, getting into speculation now.

All I'm really saying is that, since Kain does not display the exact same powers as those he absorbs the veins of, you can't assume he has the exact same powers.

Kain can read minds already before Marcus with this quote from the Blood omen 1 script:

Via drinking his blood, apparently. Very different from Marcus' arguably more useful method.

Also I would like to see your calculated comparisons on that because last time I looked, Kain can jump just as far, if not further than Faustus. Hell I think even the gap across the bridge Kain has to get across to continue may be further than we see faustus jump.

Comparing this to, say, this, Faustus gets a bit more distance, and his vertical leap leaves Kain in the dust.

Kain did not run on walls, but his dark gift in the game is an incredibly quick attack of the hands.

So there's another example of a Dark Gift not working the same way after Kain gets it. Rather similar to Charm in that respect.

Yes he can, he thinks and his opponent burns, thats all there is to it really isnt there if youve seen the ability. If your talking about the fact Kain does not bust statues (iirc he does not) like magnus then thats not evidence of him not being able to, only that I would have to point to the fact Dark gifts as they are will be absorbed. When it comes to something like an action you belive a character needs to do before you agree they can do it first wonder if they would do it even if they had the power like the relationship between abosrbing Dark gifts and their predessors suggests.

Ah, but the thing being that Kain can't use whenever he wants. He has to be sufficiently angry or have enough power. Of course, that is a gameplay abstraction (the Rage meter, specifically) that again lacks any further information beyond the game itself. And further differences being that Magnus causes explosions, while Kain puts things in a ring of fire. That's one more Dark Gift differing when Kain uses it.

And if you want to go into what a character "would do," then I suppose it won't be difficult to prove that Kain will use all of his powers (especially Charm) at the first opportunity and/or start of the fight?

Kain does not have to display anything when its clearly outlined Kain takes the "dark gift" of his opponent, the fact the gameplay mechanic in charm is limited means nothing since its not even accounted for. Take mind reading in Blood omen 1, Kains not actually used it for years, that does not give any evidence to suggest hes somehow lost it but simply that hes not used it like some of these powers.

Yet Berserk and Immolate both have different effect when used by Kain. That's enough to set a precedent, namely that it is not strange for Charm to have different effects. It's obvious that Kain doesn't take the Dark Gifts exactly as they were, so trying to imply that he does is going to be faulty no matter what.

A cutscene is not the only form of canon, infact the storyline behind how Kain gains the Dark gifts of his fallen enemies makes their feats his own unless its specifically stated somewhere he gets a "watered down" version. You cannot argue he does have a weaker version just because he did not run up a wall, or mind control a sewer thug just like how I cannot claim Kratos has problems ripping a centaur in half just because the game requires them to be weakened before you can do it. This is completly ignored regardless of what other feats Kratos has since even if he had no feats at all like you belive Kain has (since you dont want to agree with the dark gift=the feat from its previous user) we still could not use the fact he needs to weaken something before cutting its stomach open.

I could not care less about Kratos at this moment, and BloodRain has already addressed it. Kratos has additional feats to back his strength up, while Kain...doesn't. Like it or not, Kain only uses these abilities in gameplay, and nothing really implies that Kain can use Charm the way you claim he can. Heck, evidence points to Kain not getting the same exact Dark Gift in at least two more cases.

You would be lucky to survive one such encounter, until you grow stronger. But should you prevail, then you will be able to absorb their veins, and thus gain new abilities. To our kind, these are called the Dark Gifts.

And then the storyline says that absorbing veins grants "new abilities", and nothing is said about gaining the exact same ability. In fact, it is a "new one."

Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?

It has to do with vampire "evolution." The older they get, the more powerful and monstrous they get. It's why Kain looks almost like a human in, say, Blood Omen 1&2 and then looks like a hideous mass of veins in the Soul Reaver games maybe a thousand years later.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Specific examples of teleporting solid mass into solid mass? And do you have any proof that being dense would allow it to take the shape, or that the 'porting mass wont just fail at taking over the space?

So because we don't know the exact weight we cant use it? With that attitude any and every feat that cant be done or isn't irl cant be accepted.

Oh I'm sure I'm bitter cos my favorite is losing to my hated character.. Hang on.. I prefer Kain over Bayonetta.. so guess not. Its just calcing, like always. Like Ive said to you and several others here, getting personal with a debate has nothing to do with the debate itself. You wanted to get technical, so I got technical. All the measurements have been measured and are move precise than my last guess. Already showed the calculations and Kain is 1.1x Raziels height, even went and got the same result in-game to compare, just under Kain's eye level. 300 is the total, single arm would be near half that. Already found out the answer using your method of -(convert joules to ft/lb to in/lb)/area=result- above. (Btw use the US tons, not Brit tonnes. Makes it easier to compare when most calcs are in tons) Raziel's '300' ton lift gives 200734.195 psf, as psi thats 1393.987467424/ area of 0.0016 = 871242.167 lbs # 436 tons. Compare that to the 1162.7 tons you gave Bayonetta for a slash.. 2.6667x more force. Try doing the same comparison factoring in; Raziel's single arm strength used(less for Raz), Bay's two armed strength(more for Bay), stabbing with the very tip[0.0016in2] of her sword(more for Bay) and if she uses Pillow Talk(more for Bay), and you'll get a figure far more in Bay's favour.
Yet when it gets down to an intentional pierce we have Raziel stabbing Kain with his claws, with the area the Reaver hit not intercepting the cut at all. Thats 1 hitting scene against and 1 stabbing scene for. Would be a stalemate if it wasn't for the definitive showing of him getting stabbed.

So in other words no evidence to provide? Thats all speculative theory, we want cold hard facts and evidence. Bad comparison as we have a treasure trove of cutscenes involving Kratos having extreme strength, scenes Kain does not have. In fact, if Kratos had none of his high cutscene/QTE strength feats and the only thing we had to base his strength on was gameplay of him putting effort into ripping a Centaur apart then it couldnt be argued that his strength was any higher as we wouldnt have scenes to say so. But we do. Reading what you said to Scenario the base of your argument is based off should. Kain should have the same effect as Marcus despite quotes, gameplay and that afaik Marcus has never done so himself. Charm should be stronger by Defiance even if its never been shown to be. Like how Dante2 should be massively faster than Dante3 compared to his other skills [like strength increasing a thousand-fold by then] but it doesnt give me the right to claim that he's Mach1500 with this. O.o do you even know what a Red Herring is? Because asking for you to show proof against something stated is in no way irrelevant or unrelated to the point.

Please stop comparing getting tired of people twisting things to a pregnant girl getting hormonal. Unless you were to get ban-worth offensive I wont be changing my core debate style. And the tanker thing is all your figures.. point? Agreed to her Witch Time working? Oh dear...''I still cant see if shes actually headbutting it or moving her head in its direction just before it hits her'' for the sake of taking you seriously please say you were joking just now 😐 If not thats a large assumption in the face of visual evidence with a lack of any previous skill like what you're thinking.(which btw even if she did some magic power to knock a skyscraper back without touching it, that power could be applied to this fight either way) Redundant? Ones for normal combat ones for charged attacks. Oh I see, you're psychic and know what Im thinking before I do myself.. Its called discussing two points at once, kinda what we've been doing all along. Your calcs dont show the force required to throw a large mass at that speed, because with or without that propulsion assumption you would still have to have that force necessary. 35 ton force would not send 10k tons 20m/s back like it did. Propulsion or not, it still requires the force.

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Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?

I feel like your trying to get me prove a red herring, A: Kain does not teleport into solid mass but B: why would he even need to? teleporting is teleportng, Kains "magic" is not going to turn to him and say "nope, you cant teleport here!" and the area being denser than air should not make much of a difference.

Well in this case we cannot know any of the weights, when we math Chronos in God of War or blocks in various games we can at least take at base value a figuire for example chronos can be mathed as a giant human despite his proportions to get a fair enough answer and blocks in these games like LoK are just cubes, using a character standing almost next to them you can get a rough volume but Tempentia is not anywhere similiar to these shapes and his material is unkown.

I have the evidence from the same site you got it from, Kain absorbs their Dark gifts, the only evidence (lack of) that you have is from a gameplay description, so regardless of the evidence behind what Kain has gained and what Marcus could do with what Kain has gained it seems you still belive gamepaly mechanic>>those scenes therefore by your logic Kratos still cannot mount beasts without weakening them first. No, if we had no strength feats to suggest it we would use the fact hes still a peak human if not more and the centaur iirc is featless therefore the very idea of having to weaken something before attacking the specific context sensititve areas in the gameplay is redundant. Its not really should and more so has, the only should] is Kain [b]should not need any better powers than those hes displayed to MC a featless bayonetta. Of course I do, hence when asked to prove something completly irrelevent like a counter to gameplay mechanics, one of which are illogical mechanics and the other irrelevent completly even taking gameplay mechanics to heart.

What density could you possibly be using to get 300 tonnes? wood? it seems interesting how when it serves your interests your maths is now at a fault of about 400 tonnes so in doubt I have mathed the obelisk myself, seveal figuires I got were between 500-1000 tonnes due to the fact I could not decide on the overall height of the obelisk.

The tanker calc are not all my figuires, the weights are from Wiki or answerbag because I dont know the weight of a oil tanker, I was very generous to take the very largest ones although tbh its not, its got the cab of an older variant and the tanker is not as large as the biggest American big rig, the only figuire thats mine is the distance between the tanker and Temp which I kinda over compensated on. No I am yet to see Bayonetta witch time a living entity, I dont recall it happeing since even when active people like jeanne or the angel bosses in cutscenes are not affected, only rubble/inanimate objects. Its not a large assumption, its what I am trying to deduct from the same scene although looking at it again I agree shes headbutting it but the energy is spread over an area larger than her head which what threw me.

😆 an intentional pierce? so raziel reduced the effectiveness of his claws did he before he hit Kain? dont be silly and the reaver covers the entire chest, Kain also holds his entire chest area and blood pours around his hand, not a specific area and again, your pretending its just a "blade", its an energy/spirit weapon endowed with a large number of elemental powers that harms you more than just physically, its not like raziel took out a iron sword and slashed Kain with it. Weve got weakeed kain getting stabbed after slashed by the wraith blade (e.g. the difference between the Blood reaver being a draining sword and becoming a God destroying weapon) by a much weaker, slower raziel whos barely moving yet you think its proof top strength kain>>Raziels claws despite a fast/stronger Raziel not being able to scratch Kain after several blows..... 🙁

First we actually see it happen and now once again like the tankers durability you want to ignore something because your stubborn concerning the weight "you" have somehow acquired from Tempentias odd dimensions and unkown materials. Thats the final figuire, you cant add anything else to the equation other than the energy Bay gives the tanker and its mass would stay the same (unless you want to muck around add a few hundred pounds fro the angel thing?, wont make a difference).

Originally posted by BloodRain

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Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?

Some look like gargoyles like Kain, Vorador etc? because their evolved, as Vampires evolve they transform to look like Kain. They look human like the image you have of umah when their young, have only been vampires for a few hundred years, when it gets to thousands-tens of thousands they end up like Kain/vorador. They look like monsters because Kains sons and their children cannot take Kains corruption, Kain fragmented his soul to create them but the corruption Nupruptor (the mind guardian) gave Kain from birth is unbearable by them so they kind of shape to their surroundings and become more deformed/monstrous.

As an adition to that question, characters like Janos audren are original vampires, the winged race that they were before cursed by the hylden.

Originally posted by The Scenario
A quote from the manual is not a "canon manual description" now? And it does not "suggest" anything, it outright states that Kain can only control non-aggressive characters. Here it is again:

"All non-aggressive characters." And I hate to copy BloodRain's ideas, but I've got to agree with him here. Kratos has additional support for his feats beyond the game, while Kain does not. All you are doing is assuming Kain can do more than is shown.

Was it stated that stolen Dark Gifts evolve? All the other vampires evolved their powers naturally over, what, 200 years? Meanwhile, there is precedent for Kain losing his powers, as he lost nearly all of them after getting the heck beaten out of him and going into a coma. I don't know if he lost them again, but hey. Hmm, I wonder if Dark Gift atrophy with disuse? Meh, getting into speculation now.

All I'm really saying is that, since Kain does not display the exact same powers as those he absorbs the veins of, you can't assume he has the exact same powers.

Via drinking his blood, apparently. Very different from Marcus' arguably more useful method.

Comparing this to, say, this, Faustus gets a bit more distance, and his vertical leap leaves Kain in the dust.

So there's another example of a Dark Gift not working the same way after Kain gets it. Rather similar to Charm in that respect.

Ah, but the thing being that Kain can't use whenever he wants. He has to be sufficiently angry or have enough power. Of course, that is a gameplay abstraction (the Rage meter, specifically) that again lacks any further information beyond the game itself. And further differences being that Magnus causes explosions, while Kain puts things in a ring of fire. That's one more Dark Gift differing when Kain uses it.

And if you want to go into what a character "would do," then I suppose it won't be difficult to prove that Kain will use all of his powers (especially Charm) at the first opportunity and/or start of the fight?

Yet Berserk and Immolate both have different effect when used by Kain. That's enough to set a precedent, namely that it is not strange for Charm to have different effects. It's obvious that Kain doesn't take the Dark Gifts exactly as they were, so trying to imply that he does is going to be faulty no matter what.

I could not care less about Kratos at this moment, and BloodRain has already addressed it. Kratos has additional feats to back his strength up, while Kain...doesn't. Like it or not, Kain only uses these abilities in gameplay, and nothing really implies that Kain can use Charm the way you claim he can. Heck, evidence points to Kain not getting the same exact Dark Gift in at least two more cases.

And then the storyline says that absorbing veins grants "new abilities", and nothing is said about gaining the exact same ability. In fact, it is a "new one."

It has to do with vampire "evolution." The older they get, the more powerful and monstrous they get. It's why Kain looks almost like a human in, say, Blood Omen 1&2 and then looks like a hideous mass of veins in the Soul Reaver games maybe a thousand years later.

The quote is canon to the gameplay mechanics, but you cannot use that to claim the lore/story is based around those mechanics. Kain also has other backing ,just not from himself but from Marcus who he took the powers from.

Youve already gotten into speculation, doubting every area of a game does not mean I have to prove every specific question you come up with, Dark gifts evolve over time, simple as that but if you want to find evidence to suggest Dark gifts are stated to not evolve if youve abosrbed their power from another vamp then be my guest (you wont be able to). Theres no indication he lost all his powers, furthermore this Kain in this fight has lived both the Blood omen 2 destinty AND the destinty where Blood omen 2 did not even happen so thats irrelevent.

Why can I not? Kain absorbs their power=Kain has their power=Kain can do what they can do. Its a simple equation, trying to argue that somehow by the time Kain uses them hes not used to it then maybe you would have a point if Kain was only Blood omen 2 Kain, Kains had these powers for thousands of years.

I dont know, possibly by drinking his blood but the script claims he just "reads" his mind, either way Kain does not use this method again, therefore claiming he does not use the mental side of reading minds would be redundant to think he cannot.

Use this instead since its required to continue, attacking an opponent can only go as far as the distance between Kan and the opponent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghu3aqBJ8m0#t=10m6s

Kains is far stronger.

Yes I think we have enough gameplay mechanics cirulating as part of your argument as it is 😉 if you put enough heat into stone its sure to crack, explode etc from the pressure, the same cannot be said for incinerating a living entity.

In a KMC vs I guess he would use all his powers he can get his hands on.

Neither of them are different, your just argueing that because Magnus chooses a different target than Kain, or that kain uses his speed in his arms rather than to sprint along walls makes it true that he cannot do those things. Your trying to cover gameplay limits, that would be like me claiming Kratos could not use his thousands of tonnes of strength to rip up a chunk of concrete and launch it at his opponent in a VS just because he did not in the game....theres probably 1000 link comparisons that are similiar but I dont know him as well.

Of course gains new abilities, ergo, kain did not have them before absorbing them therefore their new...what was your point? that their new from the perspective of the person hes taking them from? 😉 I know your trying to twist words but you need to do it more skillfully to convince me of that claim. Umah does not know the pwoers Kain will acquire or those of Kains leuitenants.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The quote is canon to the gameplay mechanics, but you cannot use that to claim the lore/story is based around those mechanics. Kain also has other backing ,just not from himself but from Marcus who he took the powers from.

You can say that all you want, but until you prove that Kain can do things beyond what he shows it means nothing. Heck, Marcus hasn't even shown what you're claiming. Quotes are canon, stop ignoring them.

Youve already gotten into speculation, doubting every area of a game does not mean I have to prove every specific question you come up with, Dark gifts evolve over time, simple as that but if you want to find evidence to suggest Dark gifts are stated to not evolve if youve abosrbed their power from another vamp then be my guest (you wont be able to). Theres no indication he lost all his powers, furthermore this Kain in this fight has lived both the Blood omen 2 destinty AND the destinty where Blood omen 2 did not even happen so thats irrelevent.

Don't care. You need to prove the powers that you're claiming; simply saying "evolution" does not give you free reign to make up more powers for the Dark Gifts. Charm has definite limits and you can't just wave them away by saying "game mechanics" when nothing else supports this.

Why can I not? Kain absorbs their power=Kain has their power=Kain can do what they can do. Its a simple equation, trying to argue that somehow by the time Kain uses them hes not used to it then maybe you would have a point if Kain was only Blood omen 2 Kain, Kains had these powers for thousands of years.

Except for the fact that he does not display the same abilities, which puts an important variable in your equation. The abilities are shown with limits your haven't accounted for.

I dont know, possibly by drinking his blood but the script claims he just "reads" his mind, either way Kain does not use this method again, therefore claiming he does not use the mental side of reading minds would be redundant to think he cannot.

Other sources (wiki, Dark Chronicle, at least one FAQ) have claimed it was through the blood, which the video supports, and that Vorador shares the ability. However, what with the lack of evidence, you can't claim that Kain has Marcus' ability to read minds. Seeing as it is never mentioned or displayed, though, it's more than likely he doesn't have it.

Use this instead since its required to continue, attacking an opponent can only go as far as the distance between Kan and the opponent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghu3aqBJ8m0#t=10m6s

Kains is far stronger.

Looks about the same, not further. Conceded, anyway.

Yes I think we have enough gameplay mechanics cirulating as part of your argument as it is 😉 if you put enough heat into stone its sure to crack, explode etc from the pressure, the same cannot be said for incinerating a living entity.

Then what would you suggest we use? Everything about these abilities is gameplay, as they lack any cutscene/story feats or canon descriptions.* And if you want to disregard gameplay, you can go ahead and disregard all their possible feats. Anyway, it takes much more energy to break stone than it does to vaporize water (read: living creatures.)

*Though in actuality, the canon descriptions give limits.

Neither of them are different, your just argueing that because Magnus chooses a different target than Kain, or that kain uses his speed in his arms rather than to sprint along walls makes it true that he cannot do those things. Your trying to cover gameplay limits, that would be like me claiming Kratos could not use his thousands of tonnes of strength to rip up a chunk of concrete and launch it at his opponent in a VS just because he did not in the game....theres probably 1000 link comparisons that are similiar but I dont know him as well.

Both of them are extremely different. Magnus' clearly has a different effect on what it does target than what Kain does, and Kain takes longer to pull it off. Magnus' doesn't even show fire, just explosions, while Kain's does. Then Sebastien still moves much faster than Kain using the "same" ability. It doesn't even seem like Sebastien is using Berserk, he's just just running fast, while Kain seems to attack faster and get a small strength boost. They are completely different in practice.

Of course gains new abilities, ergo, kain did not have them before absorbing them therefore their new...what was your point? that their new from the perspective of the person hes taking them from? 😉 I know your trying to twist words but you need to do it more skillfully to convince me of that claim. Umah does not know the pwoers Kain will acquire or those of Kains leuitenants.

It doesn't say he gains the same ability, does it? From the various examples, it seems obvious he gets a similar, but nonetheless "new," ability. 😛

Originally posted by The Scenario
You can say that all you want, but until you prove that Kain can do things beyond what he shows it means nothing. Heck, Marcus hasn't even shown what you're claiming. Quotes are canon, stop ignoring them.

Don't care. You need to prove the powers that you're claiming; simply saying "evolution" does not give you free reign to make up more powers for the Dark Gifts. Charm has definite limits and you can't just wave them away by saying "game mechanics" when nothing else supports this.

Except for the fact that he does not display the same abilities, which puts an important variable in your equation. The abilities are shown with limits your haven't accounted for.

Other sources (wiki, Dark Chronicle, at least one FAQ) have claimed it was through the blood, which the video supports, and that Vorador shares the ability. However, what with the lack of evidence, you can't claim that Kain has Marcus' ability to read minds. Seeing as it is never mentioned or displayed, though, it's more than likely he doesn't have it.

Looks about the same, not further. Conceded, anyway.

Then what would you suggest we use? Everything about these abilities is gameplay, as they lack any cutscene/story feats or canon descriptions.* And if you want to disregard gameplay, you can go ahead and disregard all their possible feats. Anyway, it takes much more energy to break stone than it does to vaporize water (read: living creatures.)

*Though in actuality, the canon descriptions give limits.

Both of them are extremely different. Magnus' clearly has a different effect on what it does target than what Kain does, and Kain takes longer to pull it off. Magnus' doesn't even show fire, just explosions, while Kain's does. Then Sebastien still moves much faster than Kain using the "same" ability. It doesn't even seem like Sebastien is using Berserk, he's just just running fast, while Kain seems to attack faster and get a small strength boost. They are completely different in practice.

It doesn't say he gains the same ability, does it? From the various examples, it seems obvious he gets a similar, but nonetheless "new," ability. 😛

Was on a long weekend break and just got back, seems BR has been busy too.

Marcus has shown all Kain needs to work in this thread. Gameplay mechanics are not however, so stop ignoring rules please.

evolution gives me free reign to give a reason why Kain would be far stronger than Marcus. I did not name any specific powers Kain may be able to do so I dont know why your bringing that up. It has limits, featless beings is not one of them, game mechanics are not taken into account.

Hes shown the ability to mind control, and he has the fact hes absorbed Marcus' power there is no logic or claim or argument that can suggest he gets something weaker than Marcus has unless Gameplay mechanics were allowed, which they are not.

But I have just proven Kain can read minds, regardless of what method he uses. My point was that Kain does not use any of these powers, even the proven one in Blood omen 2, Defiance, Soul reaver etc so him not using the power Marcus gave him t do so is not an unusual thing.

I suggest we use the fact that Kain absorbs/acquires the powers/dark gifts of his enemies therefore using the cutscenes/canon of those abilities is the route, gameplay mechanics are never used, theres always something canon on an ability even if we have nothing but basic function to go from.

As I explained before, we would see explosions from rocks wheras Kain targets people, logical deduction. Completly different? your pushing that claim a bit too far, just because Magnus blew up a statue and Kain didnt does not mean the ability is completyl different, causing insane heat with your mind is the practice of the ability, its just weve seen both characters target other things. As for Sebastion, the practice was "slightly" different, all in all we have a speed boost, Kain uses it in his hands in the game, just because you dont need/ever run up a wall does not mean Kain cannot using Sebastions ability.

From the evidence he gets exactly the same ability with the only exceptions being gameplay mechanics and that you require to have to see the exact same actions and choices of target for a character before your convinced their the same powers. Kain acquires the dark gift of an enemy in canon but your not pleased unless he uses it in exactly the same fashion otherwise you belive its somehow weaker when Kain gets it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Marcus has shown all Kain needs to work in this thread. Gameplay mechanics are not however, so stop ignoring rules please.

Where? In gameplay, you mean? Doesn't matter, you still haven't proved that Kain can do more than he himself is shown to do.

evolution gives me free reign to give a reason why Kain would be far stronger than Marcus. I did not name any specific powers Kain may be able to do so I dont know why your bringing that up. It has limits, featless beings is not one of them, game mechanics are not taken into account.

You know, it really doesn't, what with it being entirely speculation. What I think you're failing to understand is that the ability is only used in gameplay, so there's really nothing else to go on except the canon description that gives it limits you're ignoring.

Hes shown the ability to mind control, and he has the fact hes absorbed Marcus' power there is no logic or claim or argument that can suggest he gets something weaker than Marcus has unless Gameplay mechanics were allowed, which they are not.

He shown the ability to mind control what? He's also got a canon manual description specifically outlining his limits, but you keep ignoring that one for some reason. Marcus doesn't really matter since he's only shown the ability in gameplay, too.

But I have just proven Kain can read minds, regardless of what method he uses. My point was that Kain does not use any of these powers, even the proven one in Blood omen 2, Defiance, Soul reaver etc so him not using the power Marcus gave him t do so is not an unusual thing.

Good. Now prove he'll use any of these in the fight when he never does in canon.

I suggest we use the fact that Kain absorbs/acquires the powers/dark gifts of his enemies therefore using the cutscenes/canon of those abilities is the route, gameplay mechanics are never used, theres always something canon on an ability even if we have nothing but basic function to go from.

How do you determine basic function? Without gameplay or the canon manual description, you'd be hard pressed to prove these abilities even exist.

As I explained before, we would see explosions from rocks wheras Kain targets people, logical deduction. Completly different? your pushing that claim a bit too far, just because Magnus blew up a statue and Kain didnt does not mean the ability is completyl different, causing insane heat with your mind is the practice of the ability, its just weve seen both characters target other things. As for Sebastion, the practice was "slightly" different, all in all we have a speed boost, Kain uses it in his hands in the game, just because you dont need/ever run up a wall does not mean Kain cannot using Sebastions ability.

From the videos I linked, you can you the differences. Magnus' power causes explosions, while Kain's causes fire. It has nothing to do with the target, they're just different abilities. An explosion is still much more powerful than mere fire. As for Sebastien, you're still trying to justify "Berserk" as simple speed. The abilities both are shown to use simply don't match. You'd need to prove Kain can replicate their abilities.

From the evidence he gets exactly the same ability with the only exceptions being gameplay mechanics and that you require to have to see the exact same actions and choices of target for a character before your convinced their the same powers. Kain acquires the dark gift of an enemy in canon but your not pleased unless he uses it in exactly the same fashion otherwise you belive its somehow weaker when Kain gets it.

Not exactly weaker. Just different. He doesn't make explosions like Magnus or run on walls like Sebastien. He doesn't read minds like Marcus and canon manual descriptions say he can't control aggressive characters. It's clear he's got different, but similar, abilities that don't work quite the same way.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Where? In gameplay, you mean? Doesn't matter, you still haven't proved that Kain can do more than he himself is shown to do.

You know, it really doesn't, what with it being entirely speculation. What I think you're failing to understand is that the ability is only used in gameplay, so there's really nothing else to go on except the canon description that gives it limits you're ignoring.

He shown the ability to mind control what? He's also got a canon manual description specifically outlining his limits, but you keep ignoring that one for some reason. Marcus doesn't really matter since he's only shown the ability in gameplay, too.

Good. Now prove he'll use any of these in the fight when he never does in canon.

How do you determine basic function? Without gameplay or the canon manual description, you'd be hard pressed to prove these abilities even exist.

From the videos I linked, you can you the differences. Magnus' power causes explosions, while Kain's causes fire. It has nothing to do with the target, they're just different abilities. An explosion is still much more powerful than mere fire. As for Sebastien, you're still trying to justify "Berserk" as simple speed. The abilities both are shown to use simply don't match. You'd need to prove Kain can replicate their abilities.

Not exactly weaker. Just different. He doesn't make explosions like Magnus or run on walls like Sebastien. He doesn't read minds like Marcus and canon manual descriptions say he can't control aggressive characters. It's clear he's got different, but similar, abilities that don't work quite the same way.

Youve not seen Marcus mind control many human beings across the city? Marcus proves it for me what Kain can do.

Of course it does, nothing about abilities evolving over time or vampires in general is speculation, you know this so I dont know why your playing with me here. Marcus uses it in cutscenes not just gameplay and the "canon description" in your case is not canon at all to the lore, its a gameplay mechanic run down which is what your ignoring.

Theres a big difference between limits within gameplay (completly ignored as if they dont even exist in this thread) and limits in the lore. You see all the people, from warrior priests to Sarafan that hes mind contrlled trying to attack you across the city.

Thats a funny thing to say, prove hes going to use it in a fight against Bay? both of them I assume are using all the abilities at their disposal to win which is what this debate is about.

😆 I dont know, maybe the part where Kain can absorb the dark gifts of his foes and we clearly see how each of the gifts are used. Basic function is what it generally does in the game, e.g. leap for jump, control minds for charm etc.

I can see the differences in target/practice, that does not change the actual ability. Marcus does not make explosions 😆 where are you seeing that? the fact the statue exploded does not mean Marcus makes explosions...exchange "fire" for "simple heat", and no thats not always the case since enough heat in a material, lets say stone statue can cause an explosion due to pressure. Berserk is just speed....

He "doesnt" run on walls, is not the same as saying he does not take Sebastions dark gift of speed....its not indicated that Sebastions gift is to run on walls either, he uses speed attacks or movements to fight Kain or evade him before the battle. "canon" manuel descriptions say Kain acquires the dark gifts of his enemies, what we see them do are their dark gifts e.g. Kain now has them canonically, you trying to use a gameplay control scheme to limit Kain is as foolish as me trying to limit Kratos by pointing out he has to weaken enemies before mounting them.

This whole argument is a red herring anyway since it may not even be a useful ability considering regardless of Bayonettas mental limitations she may not even be able to harm Kain, therefore basic attacks may well do.

Its only a Red Herring when I ask for something totally unrelated to the point, asking to back up a claim is not one. Teleporting, being a act of fiction, works by its own set of rules per verse. So if you believe that teleporting in the LoK verse would allow a character to 'port mass into mass then evidence is needed.

Shape- rough ellipsoid. Dimensions- scaled from the lorry. Materials- outside is rock-like, inside must have something inside for it to move (aka not hollow) so assumed 1g/cm3. [flesh/water like density] Besides assuming that something light makes up it inertia so that it can move everything else is at base the same method. It isn't that complex of far-fetched

Scenario's covering the 'what he gained', so assuming for now that Kain can do what Marcus can, when exactly has Marcus ever done the things we're asking for? If we haven't seen a better strength/necessary feat from Kratos then it can't be argued, but we have proof to say so with cutscenes and QTE's. Kain and Marcus do not have this proof. Soo Kain's MC has to be stronger even without proof? And Kain's MC has control over those limitations as he copied Marcus who.. hasn't shown to do so? Again, asking for proof to negate the quotes and lack of showings is not a Red Herring. Its asking you to actually show us Charm working against the quotes.

If you read my post you would know the density. 1) Never thought about Raziel's height until this debate where I had to look at more Kain and Raziel clips. 2) Assumed its height by eye-judging if the base was 4m long. 3) Had no clue what the formula was let alone what the shape was called. Asked my two math-nerds. Not so much to serve my interest as gained knowledge since last calcing. [Just like with the LoZPillar, it was only when debating Scream after knowing more about the thing that I got the new weight and distance] Wouldn't mind seeing your workings for it if ya don't mind.

Urm.. meant the calcs not the weight. I just posted a clip of a person being subjected to its effect, and heres another of Balder being effected. So whats your opinion on the time power and skyscraper now?

Taking the wrong contents from my words. As in when the time came for Raziel to rip out the Heart he could. Ive watched the scene several times and blood comes from the right side under the pec, the hand wound is above and more centered at the sternum. So getting hit with the blade weakens a persons durability? If thats the claim is there proof that the Reaver does this. [How do the scenes when Kain got damaged/cut in Bo2 match up? Or the times when other vampires, young and old, get cut up?]

Stubborn.. >: pot calling the kettle black much? -Somehow/Odd/Unknown- ..You really don't know how its done? Its pretty simple actually. Well if you have a concern for the weight besides disregarding it for a single assumption the by all means, do share. The energy from 45 tons at 40m/s would make Temp move 1.4m/s if 35k tons and 7m/s if 10k, not the 20m/s that it was. The energy doesn't make itself, which is needed w/ or w/o propulsion breaking down. Explanation for Temp getting for force to move like that? The only way it could move 20m/s like it did is if it weighed 180 tons which could only be true if it a) its only a shell and b) if the shell's density is 1/20th that or water. The only way your calcs can work is to ignore Newton's 1st and 3rd laws and not give a reason to why besides the faulty propulsion theory that would still need the energy to be launched horizontal at all.
Fun fact, you're accusing me of ignoring the tankers durability as with the force I'm stating it would destroy it, correct? Now thats interesting as you stand by your own figures that, in physically logical by irl standards, would mean you're doing that exact same thing you accuse me of; ignoring that that force would defeat the tankers durability. Just like how IRL a 300 tonner hitting stone with blade-like claws would plow his fist into the rock, not merely push it back. Or how a 300 tonner striking a person into a metal, that the metal would be torn apart or at least have dents. And how 300 tons of rocks falling under its own weight on to solid ground wouldn't bounce back up... Like I said, the tanker not breaking is just something that happens in its verse. The exact same thing happens when that tram-thing fell on her and she caught it. Irl thin base metal coming down with 200k joules would make Bayonetta spike right through it.

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Makes sense, the monster part threw me off. Reading up its a shame they took this out of Defiance and got cancelled before getting it in the next sequel.