The Scenario
Greater Sci-Fi combatant
Originally posted by Burning thought
Gameplay limits are irrelevent though so since were talking canon, mechanics are outof the question. Its quite simple, read the part where gameplay mechanics are irrelvent then drop this nonsense, then take into account logic in the video below.
Proof. That's all you need. Show me Kain doing it, and that'll be it. Your claim requires it, so go ahead.
Marcus confirms growth in his ability which is the point. Kain has shown he has more mental resistance than "dull mortal fools", its not his aggressiveness towards marcus that saved him, it was his mind being stronger, Bay does not have that.
But again you can't quantify it so you're claim falls kinda flat. What with you being unable to put any concrete support behind it. As for Kain, you still have yet to prove Kain goes beyond what is shown, which is all that is required.
Thats not a limit in canon, only in gameplay, weak minded is a point of view, in this case Kains, again as I said he would probably say the same about Bay. If you want to argue character then no, she is not aggressive to begin with.
It is, in fact, a given limit, and until you prove that Kain is not subject to it, you can't claim that Kain goes beyond it. Nothing so far has supported your claim of Kain doing anything beyond what he is shown to be able to do.
Point being that she talks a lot and even when serious uses fists and guns not many powers at all. Kain has no real demonstration of him fighting at full power since becoming an Elder.
'k, we have successfully proven this will likely be a physical battle before any powers get thrown around.
He has no reason to talk to Bay, all he knows is she is to his mind a human, he talks to the guardians for various reasons although tbh most conversations are short lived and when hes defeated them like how he mocked moebius before chopping his head. Everything since Kain had become an Elder has mostly been around Raziel and Kains manipulations so hes not going to attack Raziel with much force at all.
I thought there was some rule about this. "Common knowledge," was it? That thing where both combatants are given the general knowledge that someone in the respective 'verses would reasonably know. Kain would, presumably, know that Bayonetta was a witch and Bayonetta would know Kain is a vampire. At least, I think that's how it went.
Magnus using pyroenesis and Sebastion using speed, both of which Kain gains. Your trying to toy with the idea that just because Kains targets are generally different that their not the same power. If I picked up a ball and punched it, then picked up a ball and kicked it...I am still using physical forces just in different ways but its the same force.
Nah. You're using completely different limbs, completely different mechanisms, directions, and sources of that force that the results could be wildly different. Which ball to you think would go further, say? The one you punched, or the one you kicked? One is obviously stronger, for example, most commonly the legs, so you're kick has a better chance of going farther. What direction will they go in? The punch will likely be purely forward force, so it'll go a bit before falling and then rolling. The kicked ball, since you likely kicked up, seeing as you picked it up first, would probably go up, as opposed to the forward punch. Then when it lands it will bounce much higher and I don't think it will roll much.
So, sure, still the same force it want to call it that, but the effects and respective strengths are wildly different. That's basically what I'm talking about here. Magnus causing explosions is more powerful than Kain causing a fire, essentially the kick to Kain's punch. You could say it's the same power, but Magnus' is obviously more powerful and the effects are wildly different. Sebastien's abilities differ signifacntly from Kain's, with a different of speed, going for movement to Kain's striking speed. He's noticeably faster than Kain, and his kicks seem to hit harder.
Your quoting the entire gameplay mechanic there and then, all of that is a mechanic/controls/limitations within the gameplay. You cannot cut piecies from it that you like and use it as if it was stated in the "story" section or spoken by a character. I dont know if he can read minds or not using it, considering Marcus could I would think so.
The ability is never mentioned or used by Kain, a great indicator that he does not have it. That further indicates his ability is weaker than Marcus', and gameplay supports that. At no point is Kain required to Charm an aggressive individual (or non-weak minded one) or is Marcus shown to be able to, either. You'd need to prove Kain can, as that claim requires him to do more than is shown. It's an extraordinary claim, it needs extraordinary evidence.
"believably show it whos boss", thats an interesting addition...Kain can believably dominate minds with aggression not logically making any indication of them resisting anything. Its not a red herring, its me pointing out a gameplay mechanic in another game that makes your use of one foolish, you cant seem to understand that.
You're trying to change the subject to Kratos, using a completely unrelated and irrelevant mechanic to what I'm discussing. Also, if you could actually produce a quote from the manual for Kratos that might help you, but I doubt it unless you find a relevant mechanic. (Hint: mounting creatures isn't actually relevant.)
The way I see it, what magnus uses (heat) is a form of controlling energy, you concentrate energy to make it more "intense" and powerful, therefore its not like strength where you can mentally (or with a lack of mental perception) misjudge the use of it. I think its funny how you keep trying to state Kain is using fire and Magnus is not or that one is more powerful than the other...
I never said anything about control or lack of it; that was me correcting you on Magnus somehow being less powerful than Kain because he's insane or something. It didn't make much sense. In any case I'm not even talking about that. What I am talking about is Kain making fire, and fire not being hot enough to explode generally. The fact that Magnus' ability is explosions, his power is demonstrably hotter and more powerful than just fire, which again is not normally hot enough to explode.
If Kain simply used the same power but in his legs he would be able to do the same as Sebastion, since its the same power. You cannot claim just because Kain uses it in-game on his arms that somehow Sebastion cannot or Kain cannot do what sebastion does. Its the same dark gift, also iirc Sebastion does punch, the main factor being "speed".
You should probably prove he can, first. All Kain has demonstrated is attack speed, as opposed to Sebastien's movement speed, wall running, jumping, and general speed. Despite what you say, Kain has not demonstrated Sebastien's speed or abilities. All this points to Kain generally have somewhat weaker abilities.
You see the priests being charmed and ordered in that video but you miss the point. Kain is agressive towards Marcus, deadly aggressive to the point of wanting him dead yet Marcus does not belive in his 200 years of experiance that this aggression is any barrier. Him talking to Sarafan makes no indication of limitation, infact the Sarafan at the time were not aggressive and iirc were simply being told to kill Kain on sight or something like that. I assume there are limits on the "number" of people he can simply take under his domination, what with all the warrior priests already doing his will, perhaps other guards are not necessery.
That's because Marcus does not seem to know how exactly his abilities work. Aside from clearly being wrong and his generally cowardly personality (you know, hiding forever) he does not use his abilities to his advantage when it would be quite smart to do so. Kain killing the priests would open up plenty of spots even if you weren't just pulling an excuse out of thin air. Further, at least one Sarafan nearly attacked him because they were under orders to look for a vampire, and he actually stopped to explain the situation rather than just Charming the moron. Again, Occam's razor would dictate that, as the theory with the fewest assumptions, that he simply can't control them despite it being to his advantage to do so and his record (i.e: priests) indicating that it is something he would do if within his power. The fact that he doesn't is telling.
