Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.5 War and Kain X Link and Bayonetta

Originally posted by BloodRain
Its only a Red Herring when I ask for something totally unrelated to the point, asking to back up a claim is not one. Teleporting, being a act of fiction, works by its own set of rules per verse. So if you believe that teleporting in the LoK verse would allow a character to 'port mass into mass then evidence is needed.

Shape- rough ellipsoid. Dimensions- scaled from the lorry. Materials- outside is rock-like, inside must have something inside for it to move (aka not hollow) so assumed 1g/cm3. [flesh/water like density] Besides assuming that something light makes up it inertia so that it can move everything else is at base the same method. It isn't that complex of far-fetched

Scenario's covering the 'what he gained', so assuming for now that Kain can do what Marcus can, when exactly has Marcus ever done the things we're asking for? If we haven't seen a better strength/necessary feat from Kratos then it can't be argued, but we have proof to say so with cutscenes and QTE's. Kain and Marcus do not have this proof. Soo Kain's MC has to be stronger even without proof? And Kain's MC has control over those limitations as he copied Marcus who.. hasn't shown to do so? Again, asking for proof to negate the quotes and lack of showings is not a Red Herring. Its asking you to actually show us Charm working against the quotes.

If you read my post you would know the density. 1) Never thought about Raziel's height until this debate where I had to look at more Kain and Raziel clips. 2) Assumed its height by eye-judging if the base was 4m long. 3) Had no clue what the formula was let alone what the shape was called. Asked my two math-nerds. Not so much to serve my interest as gained knowledge since last calcing. [Just like with the LoZPillar, it was only when debating Scream after knowing more about the thing that I got the new weight and distance] Wouldn't mind seeing your workings for it if ya don't mind.

Urm.. meant the calcs not the weight. I just posted a clip of a person being subjected to its effect, and heres another of Balder being effected. So whats your opinion on the time power and skyscraper now?

Taking the wrong contents from my words. As in when the time came for Raziel to rip out the Heart he could. Ive watched the scene several times and blood comes from the right side under the pec, the hand wound is above and more centered at the sternum. So getting hit with the blade weakens a persons durability? If thats the claim is there proof that the Reaver does this. [How do the scenes when Kain got damaged/cut in Bo2 match up? Or the times when other vampires, young and old, get cut up?]

Stubborn.. >: pot calling the kettle black much? -Somehow/Odd/Unknown- ..You really don't know how its done? Its pretty simple actually. Well if you have a concern for the weight besides disregarding it for a single assumption the by all means, do share. The energy from 45 tons at 40m/s would make Temp move 1.4m/s if 35k tons and 7m/s if 10k, not the 20m/s that it was. The energy doesn't make itself, which is needed w/ or w/o propulsion breaking down. Explanation for Temp getting for force to move like that? The only way it could move 20m/s like it did is if it weighed 180 tons which could only be true if it a) its only a shell and b) if the shell's density is 1/20th that or water. The only way your calcs can work is to ignore Newton's 1st and 3rd laws and not give a reason to why besides the faulty propulsion theory that would still need the energy to be launched horizontal at all.
Fun fact, you're accusing me of ignoring the tankers durability as with the force I'm stating it would destroy it, correct? Now thats interesting as you stand by your own figures that, in physically logical by irl standards, would mean you're doing that exact same thing you accuse me of; ignoring that that force would defeat the tankers durability. Just like how IRL a 300 tonner hitting stone with blade-like claws would plow his fist into the rock, not merely push it back. Or how a 300 tonner striking a person into a metal, that the metal would be torn apart or at least have dents. And how 300 tons of rocks falling under its own weight on to solid ground wouldn't bounce back up... Like I said, the tanker not breaking is just something that happens in its verse. The exact same thing happens when that tram-thing fell on her and she caught it. Irl thin base metal coming down with 200k joules would make Bayonetta spike right through it.

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Makes sense, the monster part threw me off. Reading up its a shame they took this out of Defiance and got cancelled before getting it in the next sequel.

Your asking me to back up a point with evidence you "belive" is relevent but I do not, you have yet to explain your theory behind why a person cannot teleport into an area, even if theres mass in that area. My take on it is that all that will happen is the same when Nightcrawler does it, solid piecies will become fused together, liquids may merge etc, but theres no reason to belive Kains magic will as I said tell him "no you cant".

What do you mean it needs something inside it to move exactly? Also a lot of it is not necessery solid, its got piecies hanging from it, decorations etc.

But what your asking for is irrelevent to the discussion isnt it unless your talking about the agression thing, which is as I said a gameplay mechanic which are completly ignored and besides Marcus clearly has shown to be able to dominate human minds, even the typical agressors since almost all of his mind controlled pawns are soldiers/warrior priests. But its a red herring because gameplay mechanics are irrelevent.

No problem, here:

Raziels height: 1.8288 meters

Area/mass of the rectangle before the pyramid tip

5 blocks lower piece, 7 blocks higher piece= 12 overall=

width: 4 meter

length: 4 meter

height: 21.9456 meters

Volume= lengthxwidthxheight= 351.1296

Mass= 944.889754 tonnes 945 for simplicity.

Pyramid tip:

height: 1.9

Width: 3.5

length: 3.5

volume: 7.758 meters cubed

Mass: 20.876778

Overall weight of obelisk: 965.766532 tonnes, 966 rounded up.

Intestingly, Darkstorm Zero thinks the obelisk could be as much has 50 meters tall give or take 10 meters, I said 20 because even the small pyramid on top looks taller than raziel although we dont see the pillar from Raziels perspective, only the camera angles. The concensus seems to be at least 15-20 meters in height.

My opinion is that this is the only real reason to debate this further, since its the only thing I can see giving Bayonetta the win. I am still doing a lot of calculations on it at the moment, calculating a skyscraper moving like that is difficult to say the least since something that heavy regardless of the strength put into it would not "move" like that but I am getting there. Using Balder as the example (the most certain one) she can slow/freeze someone in time for a good few seconds, how she can pull off this move in the first place is dependant on her being able to cross the field (may not be possible if theres a long distance between the pair in this fight) AND charge up the attack to hit Kain with the force. All this before her time powers run out, we must also assume she is in range of Kain with her time powers. Also take into account Kain may have put his time powers on as well, this would not manipulate her time duration exactly since its coming from her energy so it may take her a whole minute or longer to do something that takes 20 seconds, and a whole minute could be too long. A lot of things could give Kain the defence required (mist form, teleport, time powers of his own) to survive the attack assuming that it can destroy him if it hits him physically.

I may need help from you (I have failed so far) in finding the density of bone compared to skin. Also, how large in square inches would you say bayonettas forehead/top of head is?

Can you show me a screenshot please, I have also watched it several times and blood comes from under Kains entire hand which he uses to hold his entire chest (its a big hand/claw), I dont see any actual cut on Kains model. My claim is that whatever the Wraith blade did, its vastly more than just a physiacal wound since its not a physical blade and its the difference between Raziel not being able to scratch Kain (SR2 intro FMV) and tearing through his flesh and bones for his heart (Defiance). The wraith blade being a vastly powerful weapon, and being what struck Kain beforehand in the rough area is the only difference between the two scenes that could favour Raziels success.

not necesserily, hell I have been sitting here calculating different measurements for Bayonettas skyscraper feats and the Tanker and have just conceded to time powers affecting Kain and may even give Bay the win when I am done and those are all more complicated imo than the force of an oil tanker which is a real vehicle that we know the weight of. My calc takes into account mass and energy in motion required to send Tempentia down, this cannot be argued what can however is why this happened to Tempentia but only suggestions not facts can be considered. Well I succumbed to the idea behind the Tanker not breaking just to push the argument on, tbh I suggest the same thing with Tempentia, perhaps thats just how the "verse" did it OR for some unkown reason Tempentia being an angelic being has a tiny weight for his size.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Youve not seen Marcus mind control many human beings across the city? Marcus proves it for me what Kain can do.

I've only seen that in gameplay; is that suddenly allowed now? Go ahead and prove Marcus can do what you're claiming, then forget it and read the manual again.

Of course it does, nothing about abilities evolving over time or vampires in general is speculation, you know this so I dont know why your playing with me here. Marcus uses it in cutscenes not just gameplay and the "canon description" in your case is not canon at all to the lore, its a gameplay mechanic run down which is what your ignoring.

Vampires evolve, yes. Please quantify this. If you can't do it, I'm afraid you can't accurately predict what will happen to those abilities. It's not gameplay mechanics, when it says Kain can only control "non-aggressive" characters, unless you can prove that's false.

Theres a big difference between limits within gameplay (completly ignored as if they dont even exist in this thread) and limits in the lore. You see all the people, from warrior priests to Sarafan that hes mind contrlled trying to attack you across the city.

In gameplay only, though. Cutscenes show Marcus arguing with Sarafan, notably not mind controlled, so I'm not sure why you seem to think this helps you. The only person Marcus Charms in cutscene in the Bishop, a non aggressive character. You'd still need to prove Kain can do more than that.

Thats a funny thing to say, prove hes going to use it in a fight against Bay? both of them I assume are using all the abilities at their disposal to win which is what this debate is about.

Prove he'll use an ability he never uses? Not that funny, I think. Just wondering if CIS is on, in which case Kain is unlikely to use them at best. It's not really within his character to do so immediately.

😆 I dont know, maybe the part where Kain can absorb the dark gifts of his foes and we clearly see how each of the gifts are used. Basic function is what it generally does in the game, e.g. leap for jump, control minds for charm etc.

We seen how the gifts are used where? In gameplay only? What with the fact that these abilities are seen only only in gameplay and literally nowhere else, the only way to determine basic function would be to look at gameplay. "What it generally does in the game" is still gameplay, and still has the limits you're ignoring. I'd stop trying to cherry pick gameplay if I were you. The choices here are the limited abilities we actually see, or no abilities at all. Of course, you're probably going to try a third option, the abilities we dont see but are still stronger, though that option doesn't actually exist.

I can see the differences in target/practice, that does not change the actual ability. Marcus does not make explosions 😆 where are you seeing that? the fact the statue exploded does not mean Marcus makes explosions...exchange "fire" for "simple heat", and no thats not always the case since enough heat in a material, lets say stone statue can cause an explosion due to pressure. Berserk is just speed....

Marcus may not make explosions, but Magnus sure does, as is seen in game. You can "exchange" all you want, but the ability shown is not simple heat. It's an explosion. When Kain uses it, there is fire, regardless of the target. Fire and explosions are different reactions for different things, this at least show that Magnus generates far more pressure than Kain could ever hope to.

He "doesnt" run on walls, is not the same as saying he does not take Sebastions dark gift of speed....its not indicated that Sebastions gift is to run on walls either, he uses speed attacks or movements to fight Kain or evade him before the battle. "canon" manuel descriptions say Kain acquires the dark gifts of his enemies, what we see them do are their dark gifts e.g. Kain now has them canonically, you trying to use a gameplay control scheme to limit Kain is as foolish as me trying to limit Kratos by pointing out he has to weaken enemies before mounting them.

Sebastian's dark gift is not "speed." Sebastian's dark gift is "berserk." Sebastian and Kain never demonstrate even roughly the same abilities save for the most superficial similarity that you keep clinging to, yet the abilities are still clearly different. This just establishes from multiple examples that Kain's ability is generally weaker than the vampire he took it from, in canon.

This whole argument is a red herring anyway since it may not even be a useful ability considering regardless of Bayonettas mental limitations she may not even be able to harm Kain, therefore basic attacks may well do.

I don't care about the fight, I care about you misrepresenting Kain's powers as they are clearly shown to work. Stop trying to exaggerate them beyond what they are shown to do, and I'll just go away.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I've only seen that in gameplay; is that suddenly allowed now? Go ahead and prove Marcus can do what you're claiming, then forget it and read the manual again.

Vampires evolve, yes. Please quantify this. If you can't do it, I'm afraid you can't accurately predict what will happen to those abilities. It's not gameplay mechanics, when it says Kain can only control "non-aggressive" characters, unless you can prove that's false.

In gameplay only, though. Cutscenes show Marcus arguing with Sarafan, notably not mind controlled, so I'm not sure why you seem to think this helps you. The only person Marcus Charms in cutscene in the Bishop, a non aggressive character. You'd still need to prove Kain can do more than that.

Prove he'll use an ability he never uses? Not that funny, I think. Just wondering if CIS is on, in which case Kain is unlikely to use them at best. It's not really within his character to do so immediately.

We seen how the gifts are used where? In gameplay only? What with the fact that these abilities are seen only only in gameplay and literally nowhere else, the only way to determine basic function would be to look at gameplay. "What it generally does in the game" is still gameplay, and still has the limits you're ignoring. I'd stop trying to cherry pick gameplay if I were you. The choices here are the limited abilities we actually see, or no abilities at all. Of course, you're probably going to try a third option, the abilities we dont see but are still stronger, though that option doesn't actually exist.

Marcus may not make explosions, but Magnus sure does, as is seen in game. You can "exchange" all you want, but the ability shown is not simple heat. It's an explosion. When Kain uses it, there is fire, regardless of the target. Fire and explosions are different reactions for different things, this at least show that Magnus generates far more pressure than Kain could ever hope to.

Sebastian's dark gift is not "speed." Sebastian's dark gift is "berserk." Sebastian and Kain never demonstrate even roughly the same abilities save for the most superficial similarity that you keep clinging to, yet the abilities are still clearly different. This just establishes from multiple examples that Kain's ability is generally weaker than the vampire he took it from, in canon.

I don't care about the fight, I care about you misrepresenting Kain's powers as they are clearly shown to work. Stop trying to exaggerate them beyond what they are shown to do, and I'll just go away.

I dont recall that ever happening in gameplay, I recall fighting mind controlled enemies in gameplay but you seem to be trying to twist words now. I prefer reading the "lore" in a games manuel, I usually learn the gameplay mechanics and commands later on in the game.

I never said I could accuratly predict what would happen, although I can see based on what Marcus says that in even in a few hundred years powers can "grow enormously". Yes it is 😆 , you keep grasping at exactly the same mechanics and ignoring that fact as if youve got some "factual lore based canon" backing you up.

Hang on, why would I? wheres Bayonettas vast mental powers beyond the bishops defence?

If CIS is on then Kain is far more likely to start slinging his most powerful abilities sooner than Bay who even when fighting with some seriousness uses nothing but guns and punches......

Every ability in one way or another is shown in cutscenes, playing silly buggers wont impress or convince me of your claims so I suggest you stop the insult. Faustus leaps and jumps distance in a lot of his scenes, sebastion runs at speeds everywhere and the charmed (including the bishop youve already mentioned) of Marcus' are present as well, infact I dont think theres anyone other than maybe the Hylden witch do not show off their dark gift before Kain acquires it and even if they did not the fact Kain shows it at some point to get past an area in the game proves it. We know what it "generally does", most spells have some kind of a description.

No we dont disregard abilities just because they dont have a cutscene but we dont have to resort to mechanics either. You seem to have some major confusion between gameplay, gameplay mechanics and canon lore and how each can be used as part of a logical argument. If youve been fooled into believing only a cutscene is canon then your sorely mistaken.

Well he would wouldnt he, hot pressure in rocks breaks them apart. Hows magnus in your little theory going to generate more power with a dark gift Kain now has? that makes no logical sense....if anything logic dictates Magnus being insane would have less control.

"berserk" is what Kains ability is labeled as in the dark gift interface, point being is that speed is the typical application in sebastions case. Nothings established that at all, your belief is that just because Kain did not use an ability in exactly the same way its not as strong, which is illogical, if that were true Kain "would not" have acquired that vampires dark gift.

So you admit your only presence in this thread is to try and create some personal argument not even relevent to the thread and you have no intension of argueing about the topic? The amount of times I could leap into threads and pick apart your over proportion of abilities concerning LoZ purely for personal interest beyond the thread are numerous but I dont, its more along the lines of baiting/trolling if anything especially when you break rules to try and use gameplay mechanics like you are.

Like you would have to explain why one can. The point is its physically [lit. physics] impossible to find the real yes or no with teleportation, so for us to use something the fiction would have to provide us with that evidence.

[Had a response but changed it for this new info] We know its solid on the outside for the rock-like body, we know its flesh-like inside as when you destroy its face it shows its real head that is quite fleshy.

When has Marcus controlled someone thats aggressive towards him?

1) Raziel is 1.75m to Kain who is 1.9m 2)....the hells the 'blocks' part O.o? 3) Its not a cuboid, its a pyramidal frustum. A cuboid of your dimensions gives a volume of 336000000cm3, a frustum of the same dimensions gives a volume of 186495617.7cm3.. 1.8x difference. So with your figures in a frustum, not a cuboid, would make it from 945 tons [/1.8] to 525 tons.

Clearer images. <- We can confirm 3 things: 1) (First image) Raziel's height = length of the top 'square'.. when he's standing up straight[175cm]. 2) (Second image) That, given the angles, the height up to that black line is twice the base's width [700cm]. 3) (Both images) The obelisk three sections; the pyramid at the top and the two blocks separated by that black line. Height = both blocks height at 1400cm]

If it helps there are about 90 floors there [scale-ish]. So roughly 333m tall if one story is 3.7m like with skyscrapers, with the small width being 1/6th the length at 55m with the other width being 2/3 that at 36m. All quick glances. Empire State has a volume of 1,047,723.32m3, this one would have a volume of 659,340m3 which makes the Empire State 1.589x the size. With the Empire State weighing 365,000 tons this one would weigh 229,704.216 tons. If its wrong at least theres a rough guideline.
Well we know it can last several seconds, think the vid you gave a while ago would be the one, to get cover Kains max distance (or Kain's max range) that I don't know so I'll use an example of 50m. Would take her 1 second (in panther form would only take 0.3) to get to him and a further 4 seconds in front of Kain to charge her attack. She would only need 5 seconds of Witch Time to pull of the attack. Mist and teleport wont help as assuming he activates it at the same time that she does all she'd have to do it turn it off and what for him to come back. His time powers on the other hand will... slightly. Usually it would take Bayonetta 0.004 seconds [/1,000 as per cutscenes] to charge up and strike, if Kain can manage to or already is using his time powers [/5 as per gameplay being the only evidence] then Bay would be charging in front of him for 0.02 seconds. Peak human is 0.1.

In g/cm3: Fat 0.9, Muscle 1.06, Bone 1.7-2. Bones density depends on the type of bone. The fat/muscle is more tricky as it depends on which fat/muscle, how much fat the person has and/or if they have stronger or weaker muscles.

Here you go. (dear lord I need to use PNG next time .__.) Red lines show the path, red circle the wound area and the green circle the area that Raziel stabbed. The only property for the Wraith Blade here is its ability to absorb souls, unless Kain's physical body is dampened by his soul being effected the only thing that would make Raziel stabbing Kain easier is if it make a large gash/tear over the area that he was to stab. So when Kain was cut in BO2 and his evolved sons in SR, how does this compare?

>.< No fair you conceded to the time thing after I posted. Personaly Im finding it hard to agreed with taking the 3rd stage in the feat and not the 4th one (1st- her arm. 2nd- the angel.) Similar to how the force of the tanker is less than that of Temp, the force of the angel is less than the tanker. [that angel would have to be moving at 260m/s to equal the tankers joules] So to accept the 2nd to 3rd stage is to accept the 3rd to 4th stage. That stuff happens in every verse where we calc things. Bayonetta, LoK, LoZ, DMC, GoW, KH, FF etc all have things like this.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Like you would have to explain why one can. The point is its physically [lit. physics] impossible to find the real yes or no with teleportation, so for us to use something the fiction would have to provide us with that evidence.

[Had a response but changed it for this new info] We know its solid on the outside for the rock-like body, we know its flesh-like inside as when you destroy its face it shows its real head that is quite fleshy.

When has Marcus controlled someone thats aggressive towards him?

1) Raziel is 1.75m to Kain who is 1.9m 2)....the hells the 'blocks' part O.o? 3) Its not a cuboid, its a pyramidal frustum. A cuboid of your dimensions gives a volume of 336000000cm3, a frustum of the same dimensions gives a volume of 186495617.7cm3.. 1.8x difference. So with your figures in a frustum, not a cuboid, would make it from 945 tons [/1.8] to 525 tons.

Clearer images. <- We can confirm 3 things: 1) (First image) Raziel's height = length of the top 'square'.. when he's standing up straight[175cm]. 2) (Second image) That, given the angles, the height up to that black line is twice the base's width [700cm]. 3) (Both images) The obelisk three sections; the pyramid at the top and the two blocks separated by that black line. Height = both blocks height at 1400cm]

If it helps there are about 90 floors there [scale-ish]. So roughly 333m tall if one story is 3.7m like with skyscrapers, with the small width being 1/6th the length at 55m with the other width being 2/3 that at 36m. All quick glances. Empire State has a volume of 1,047,723.32m3, this one would have a volume of 659,340m3 which makes the Empire State 1.589x the size. With the Empire State weighing 365,000 tons this one would weigh 229,704.216 tons. If its wrong at least theres a rough guideline.
Well we know it can last several seconds, think the vid you gave a while ago would be the one, to get cover Kains max distance (or Kain's max range) that I don't know so I'll use an example of 50m. Would take her 1 second (in panther form would only take 0.3) to get to him and a further 4 seconds in front of Kain to charge her attack. She would only need 5 seconds of Witch Time to pull of the attack. Mist and teleport wont help as assuming he activates it at the same time that she does all she'd have to do it turn it off and what for him to come back. His time powers on the other hand will... slightly. Usually it would take Bayonetta 0.004 seconds [/1,000 as per cutscenes] to charge up and strike, if Kain can manage to or already is using his time powers [/5 as per gameplay being the only evidence] then Bay would be charging in front of him for 0.02 seconds. Peak human is 0.1.

In g/cm3: Fat 0.9, Muscle 1.06, Bone 1.7-2. Bones density depends on the type of bone. The fat/muscle is more tricky as it depends on which fat/muscle, how much fat the person has and/or if they have stronger or weaker muscles.

Here you go. (dear lord I need to use PNG next time .__.) Red lines show the path, red circle the wound area and the green circle the area that Raziel stabbed. The only property for the Wraith Blade here is its ability to absorb souls, unless Kain's physical body is dampened by his soul being effected the only thing that would make Raziel stabbing Kain easier is if it make a large gash/tear over the area that he was to stab. So when Kain was cut in BO2 and his evolved sons in SR, how does this compare?

Not really because your the one who thinks its a problem, theres no logical reason to think it wont work because theres no logic behind teleportation really. I gave a compromise where objects would simply form together or such not far from Nightcrawlers.

I can imagine the bishop being fairly hostile although thats not the point, the whole "aggressive" thing is the gameplay mechanic in the manuel, theres nowhere in the game or in general logic that confirms it in canon. Otherwise why would Marcus even try and mind control Kain if for 200 years hes not been able to mind control someone aggressive towards him? kain resisted due to pure resistance/his mind being too strong not because he was aggressive.

2) A rough estimation to help me calculate how many of those small blocks (the one that ends at Raziels eye level) in the whole "frustum". Can you show me the way to calculate a frustum? a site or something specific please? Ok when I have more time I will calculate the 525 tons, although I cannot see how it can lose almost 400 tons just because the sides are slightly sloped so I would like to look into that.

Aye but the problem is with those images and most we can get our hands on is that Raziel is much closer to the camera than the obelisk so that when Raziel is on the ground next to it it looks bigger. I will take some screenshots myself, I have a slightly brighter/clearer video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzjcIGsPsBE&feature=related#t=3m50s

Me and artifical glory debated about this, we agreed theres between 50-60 floors, several of my calculations math it as large as the Jhon hancock building which has about 60 floors. Its harder to tell because its a "piece" of the building and more so because Balder looks larger than a normal man so when you see the top of the spire its hard to calculate since it either looks too small or too big. At the moment, we have:

mass= 165000000 kilograms

Speed= 600 meters over 3.5 seconds

velocity= 600 divided by 3.5= 171.42857142857142857142857142857

Velocity squared= 29387.755102040816326530612244898

Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 165000000 x 29387.755102040816326530612244898

Kinetic energy= 4848979591836.7346938775510204082 x 0.5= 2424489795918.3673469387755102041 joule

2424489795918.3673469387755102041 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot

Pounds per square foot of force= 1788211904778.3494944635948840523 (811 119 276 tonnes, 811 million tonnes)

Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 12418138227.627427044886075583696 (5 632 772.75 tonnes, 5.6 million tonnes)

Divided over area?

Rough calculation. Calculations for about 500-600 meters considering the general consensus from several KMC members who I asked (about 4 but I wont mension them out of politeness) was between 500-700 meters distance travelled in the 3-3.5 seconds.

Heres your estimated calc for it using your numbers:

mass= 208383964 kilograms

Speed= 600 meters over 3.5 seconds

velocity= 600 divided by 3.5= 171.42857142857142857142857142857

Velocity squared= 29387.755102040816326530612244898

Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 208383964 x 29387.755102040816326530612244898

Kinetic energy= 6123936901224.4897959183673469388 x 0.5= 3061968450612.2448979591836734694 joule

3061968450612.2448979591836734694 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot

Pounds per square foot of force= 2258392031452.7455092952724583572 (1129196020 tonnes, 1.1 billion tonnes)

Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 15683277996.199621592328280960814 (7841639 tonnes, 7.8 million tonnes)

Divided over area?

Why would it only take her 1 second to cover 50 meters? I never thought she was that quick on her feet normally, a panther for instance would take longer than a second to cover 50 meters wouldnt it? Do we know she can just "turn it off"?, it seems to me it turns off when shes finished an action over an area but I dont know if it finishes on her whim and can start again or if its a "reaction" based thing, e.g. if she needs it its like spider senses (as strange as it sounds) rather than something she thinks of "activate witch time/deactivte" etc, either way shes got about lets say 5-10 seconds of it, 0.2-1 seconds or more can be taken up if she keeps turing it on and off to make up for Kains actions and more than that will be divded over Kains time power so you could end up using up her witch time before she even starts the charge up attack. I think we can assume she can only do this charge attack once or at best twice.

I cant see the actual wound, only the area youve circle where the wound is belived to be. Thats not the only property, yes it takes souls but its raziels combined "spiritual" essence not just a blade, considering it can even wound Kain means its hitting him with the equivellent force of millions of tons and Kain holds his whole chest, theres magical/spiritual powers not just physical ones at work here as well as the elemental forces Raziel has enchanted the reaver with (it has the power of the old vampire guardians within from the Temple) so trying to deduce where Kain was cut is unimportant. I am sorry I dont understand, Kain in BO2 is completly different than the one here, thousands of years of evolution different.

>.< No fair you conceded to the time thing after I posted. Personaly Im finding it hard to agreed with taking the 3rd stage in the feat and not the 4th one (1st- her arm. 2nd- the angel.) Similar to how the force of the tanker is less than that of Temp, the force of the angel is less than the tanker. [that angel would have to be moving at 260m/s to equal the tankers joules] So to accept the 2nd to 3rd stage is to accept the 3rd to 4th stage. That stuff happens in every verse where we calc things. Bayonetta, LoK, LoZ, DMC, GoW, KH, FF etc all have things like this.

The third stage is where the energy from stage 1 and 2 is found in to strike Temp and it concerns the speed and weight of a real world object which is why I started here making it easy to math the force. Maybe but its only the Bayonetta verse that has skyscraper head butting or launching oil tankers, most feats in other games are a little more straight forward and not quite so styalised, DMc has some "style" moves but Bayontetta takes it to the extreme.

I doubt anyone here would think that a teleporter can do this. Exactly, theres no logical reason to say it can just as theres no reason to say that it can't. The sole evidence is that the LoK verse says.

We didn't see how he got the Bishop, though its safe to say that he did it in the same way as the rest; get them from a distance when they're not looking. It may not have a cutscene to say but out the two sides only the against has anything to state its claim.

Ohhh I see. Pyramidal Frustum Volume = &#8531;height*(area of one base+area of the other base+&#8730;(Base 1*Base 2)) = (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+&#8730;(350cm^2*175cm^2)) = 466.666*(122500+30625+&#8730;3751562500) = 466.666*(122500+30625+61250) = 466.666*214375 = 100,041,524cm3 compared to a 350*350*1400 shape that gives 171,500,000cm3 The reason it went from 700 to 300 is because a) The height went from 20m to 14m[20*0.699=14], thats 0.699x700 for 490 tons to start and b) a frustums size is 0.583 that of a cuboid, 0.6x490 gives just under 300 tons.

Tun wir haben deutsch zu sprechen jetzt? Actually that gives good dimensions; 3:56- that 'line' is about 0.75x Raziel's height, line=131.25cm. 3:58- the line is 1/5 the height of the next line up, half way point=656.25cm=1312.5 for full height. If the line is actually 0.8x his height then the full height would be 14m again. Doesn't change that much even with slight altered figures.

Cba to work out the skyscraper size atm, will check size later. *stares at maths* *puts on my nerd face* .........kinda forgot what this means thread wise >-> <-< that mean she can harm him by your calcs?

Bayonetta can run as fast as a speeding car, (Bayonetta ran past the trucks as fast as Luka did speeding past them) thats 50m/s running speed. Panther form is faster than base. Does so in gameplay (I think) and in some scenes when she just offs it when its not needed like when she uses it on the rocks, rocks that she know weren't going to hit her. For that time frame check the vid just posted, 0:25-1:20 for an easy 55 seconds of Witch Time. 1 sec to for your on/off thing, 1 sec to get to him, 4 secs to charge 6 secs total with a good 49 seconds to spare. For Kain he'll be hit in 0.006 seconds still with 0.004 of her standing in front of Kain, 0.03 total if he manages to activate his powers. But still only 0.02 of Bay standing in front of him.

The blood trail points to an origin in the red circle, the wound is in that area. Well for Raziel's claws to get through the Wraith Blade would need to weaken Kain physically for his claws to have an easier time. Theres nothing to say that the blade can weaken someones physical defenses/durability[and 4-- tons on him with 300 tons on a 0.0016in2 point]. Juust checking. And what about Melchiah, Turel, Dumah and Janos? The 'sons' being at 500+ years old, compared to Kain being staying in his present form type of body since before he was 500, and Janos who is even older.

Each stage gets the energy from the stage before. No stage equals the others power. None of those verses follows the exact rules of physics, even if not on her verses level it still means the same thing.

Originally posted by BloodRain
I doubt anyone here would think that a teleporter can do this. Exactly, theres no logical reason to say it can just as theres no reason to say that it can't. The sole evidence is that the LoK verse says.

We didn't see how he got the Bishop, though its safe to say that he did it in the same way as the rest; get them from a distance when they're not looking. It may not have a cutscene to say but out the two sides only the against has anything to state its claim.

Ohhh I see. Pyramidal Frustum Volume = &#8531;height*(area of one base+area of the other base+&#8730;(Base 1*Base 2)) = (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+&#8730;(350cm^2*175cm^2)) = 466.666*(122500+30625+&#8730;3751562500) = 466.666*(122500+30625+61250) = 466.666*214375 = 100,041,524cm3 compared to a 350*350*1400 shape that gives 171,500,000cm3 The reason it went from 700 to 300 is because a) The height went from 20m to 14m[20*0.699=14], thats 0.699x700 for 490 tons to start and b) a frustums size is 0.583 that of a cuboid, 0.6x490 gives just under 300 tons.

Tun wir haben deutsch zu sprechen jetzt? Actually that gives good dimensions; 3:56- that 'line' is about 0.75x Raziel's height, line=131.25cm. 3:58- the line is 1/5 the height of the next line up, half way point=656.25cm=1312.5 for full height. If the line is actually 0.8x his height then the full height would be 14m again. Doesn't change that much even with slight altered figures.

Cba to work out the skyscraper size atm, will check size later. *stares at maths* *puts on my nerd face* .........kinda forgot what this means thread wise >-> <-< that mean she can harm him by your calcs?

Bayonetta can run as fast as a speeding car, (Bayonetta ran past the trucks as fast as Luka did speeding past them) thats 50m/s running speed. Panther form is faster than base. Does so in gameplay (I think) and in some scenes when she just offs it when its not needed like when she uses it on the rocks, rocks that she know weren't going to hit her. For that time frame check the vid just posted, 0:25-1:20 for an easy 55 seconds of Witch Time. 1 sec to for your on/off thing, 1 sec to get to him, 4 secs to charge 6 secs total with a good 49 seconds to spare. For Kain he'll be hit in 0.006 seconds still with 0.004 of her standing in front of Kain, 0.03 total if he manages to activate his powers. But still only 0.02 of Bay standing in front of him.

Theres a logical reason to say he can teleport, because he can, the only question is from your side of the argument saying he cant teleport into solids. If it says nothing, thats not evidence to say it Kains magic tells him no.

Theres no grounds for them looking or not being a difference, the whole "aggressive" argument only has a gameplay mechanic description from a manuel to state its claim which is completly ignored in here. I have Marcus directly trying to influence Kain, also the belief you can only MC someone when their not looking does not even make sense.....

But the obelisk is not a simple Frustum, it has a perfectly square block at the bottom, then a slight frustum with barely angled sides in two blocks with a pyramid on the top. Not sure how it can be calculated unless you calculated each block as about 6 meters, then added the 1.8 meters from the lower block and pyramid height. The difference between the diagrams in those links you gave me and the SR obelisk is that the angles of the sides of the lowest block is the same as a cube/cubeoid, the further large blocks are not much different although I admit barely sloped wheras thosei n the links are calculating frustum that are majorly sloped which is throwing me. You say a "frustums" size is 0.583 of a cuboid but what frustum? the one with the tiny gradiant in the Lok block or those in the diagrams that almost look like pyramids?

I dont know many words in German so I hope not. I will calculate the 14 meter, 300 tons obelisk but I am still skeptical, I feel something is being miscalculated and until I understand how to calculate frustum after studying those links you sent or until you have a very laments term calculation to help me understand it I find it hard to belive it has gone down by as much as 4-500 tons just because its got a slight angle to it, maybe if it was as at a major gradiant like those in the diagrams on that link but 500 tons cannot be in the small piecies of missing material.

What it means threadwise:

This is the original calculation for the 700 ton obelisk:

mass= 1873708.47 kilograms

Speed= 4 meters over 0.4 seconds

velocity= 4 divided by 0.4= 10

Velocity squared= 100

Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 1873708.47 x 100

Kinetic energy= 187370847 x 0.5= 93685423.5 joule

93685423.5 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot

Pounds per square foot of force= 69098822.312610824536799720624568 (34 549.4112 tons)

Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 479852.93272646405928333139322617 (239.926466 tons)

479852.93272646405928333139322617 divided by 0.0032in2 (Bloodrains estimate of Raziels two claw tips) means Kain is invulnerable to 149954041.47702001852604106038318pounds (74 977.0207 tons) per 0.0032inch2.

Exact figuires:

0.0015500031 = square millimeter x2= 0.0031000062

Kain is immune to 154790959.03952194007977512858722 pounds (77 395.4795 tons) of force per every 2 square millimters, or 0.0032inch2. 38697.73975 tons of force for every square millimeter (0.0016inch2)

92 903.04= number of square millimeters in a square foot

46451.52= number of 2mmsquared in a square foot, therefore Kain is invulerable to 3595137663.90384 tons of force over a square foot. in full 3.5 billion tons of force over a square foot.

Kains resistance in a square inch:

645.16 square millimeters in square inch= 38697.73975 tons multiplied by 645.16= Kains invulerable to 24966233.77711 tons (24.9 million tons) per square inch.

And heres the calculation assuming it is only 300 tons:

mass= 728696.466 kilograms

Speed= 4 meters over 0.4 seconds

velocity= 4 divided by 0.4= 10

Velocity squared= 100

Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 728696.466 x 100

Kinetic energy= 72869646.6 x 0.5= 36434823.3 joule

36434823.3 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot

Pounds per square foot of force= 26872946.581685386240108122780119 (13 436.4733 tons)

Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 186617.68459503740444519529708416 (93.3088423tons)

186617.68459503740444519529708416 divided by 0.0032in2 (Bloodrains estimate of Raziels two claw tips) means Kain is invulnerable to 58318026.435949188889123530338801 (29 159.0132 tons) per 0.0032inch2.

Exact figuires:

0.0015500031 = square millimeter x2= 0.0031000062

Kain is immune to 60199132.696907962456718730783235 pounds (30 099.5663 tons) of force per every 2 square millimters, or 0.0032inch2. 15049.78315 tons of force for every square millimeter (0.0016inch2)

92 903.04= number of square millimeters in a square foot

46451.52= number of 2mmsquared in a square foot, therefore Kain is invulerable to 1398170605.975776 tons of force over a square foot. in full, 1.39 billion tons of force over a square foot.

Kains resistance in a square inch:

645.16 square millimeters in square inch= 15049.78315 tons multiplied by 645.16= Kains invulerable to 9709518.097054 tonnes (9.7 million tons) per square inch.

Comparing the data, bayonettas strongest feat using your weight for the skyscraper and the weakest Data for Kain, bayonetta would need about 2.29 million tons extra PSI to break/damage Kains skin. Using my initial calculation on the skyscraper vs your initial calculation on the obelisk she needs nearly 5x as much force per square inch. So what would happen at the moment if Bay used this attack is that she would launch Kains light body across the battlefield unharmed (but at ridiculous speed) and Bay herself would instantly explode into piecies from her own forces not being absorbed/bested by Kains body. Sort of how the Skyscraper gets smashed into ruin as it hits balder after she head butts it only its her bodies durability and small female form getting the force shes harnessing...ouch.

Hm, can you show me this please? I recall it happening but I want to see for myself how fast she was in relation to the vehicles in question. They would have to be moving at about 100mph+ and for her to keep up with them for it to be at around 50 m/s.

The blood trail points to an origin in the red circle, the wound is in that area. Well for Raziel's claws to get through the Wraith Blade would need to weaken Kain physically for his claws to have an easier time. Theres nothing to say that the blade can weaken someones physical defenses/durability[and 4-- tons on him with 300 tons on a 0.0016in2 point]. Juust checking. And what about Melchiah, Turel, Dumah and Janos? The 'sons' being at 500+ years old, compared to Kain being staying in his present form type of body since before he was 500, and Janos who is even older.

Each stage gets the energy from the stage before. No stage equals the others power. None of those verses follows the exact rules of physics, even if not on her verses level it still means the same thing.

Watching it again, I wonder whether the fact theres no wound visable is because the blood is coming from Kains mouth as he yells or the reaver hitting Kains durability is dealing some sort of spiritual/magical damage rather than fully physical. I may try to get some still screenshots myself, fact is max strength Raziel cant scratch max strength Kain yet Reaver slashed Kains body is<<<Weak Raziels slowly moving claw, the reaver slash being the only difference between the scenes that could give Raziel an advantage which does not surprise me because aside from the soul reaver itself at the end of the game its the verses most powerful weapon on all levels (magical, spiritual etc). What about them? most of them have deevolved and gained only a few extra gifts from their "devolution" because they cannot take Kains corruption like Kain can, hence why Melchiah is a rotting corpse of a creature, Turel and Dumah are mishapen as well (although Dumah has the power of being revived). janos does not evolve like Kain and his sons, I dont recall why, perhaps because hes one of the original winged race and was created differently (he was born, not artifically made).

The stage that strikes temp (teh strike being stage 4?) is the stage with the oil tanker, it equels the force of revious stages before it contacts Tempentias body hence how energy travels. Arguable, I feel much more comfortable calculating 100-1000 tons based around blocks being moved a few meters a second rather than skyscrapers that have 1000 variables in physics calling her feat impossible regarldess of strength.

Logical reason to say that his teleportation allows him to transfer his mass into solid mass where the target mass disperses(like air and water would) and allows the telportees mass to take its place and not the other way round. We need evidence that he can do something that only exists in theories.

How can you act aggressive to someone you don't even know is there? Unless the person gets angry at the air that is.

Thats easy. There are 3 shapes now; the pyramid tip [square base 175cm*175cm with a 175cm height] at 5.12 tons, the cuboid base [350cm*350cm*130cm] at 45.6411998 tons and the frustum between the cuboid and the pyramid [Height of cuboid+frustum(1300cm)- Height of cuboid(130cm)=1170cm. Insert frustum formula with a height of 1170cm] at 239.616299 which is totaled at 290.377499 tons. 312.32 tons with a 140cm cuboid height, like I said its not getting far from 300tons. A cuboid with the same dimensions as the LoK [before this post] frustum where the top area is half that of the bottom area would be 1.714x larger. Eg, a cube of 10*10*10 has a volume of 1000. A frustum with 10 height, 10*10 base at the bottom and 5*5 base at the top gives 583.333 ie 0.583x the cuboid/cuboid is 1.714x the frustum.

Technically it only loses 190 tons as the 700 tons came from a height of 20m. A cuboid of height 14m is 490 tons. Sorry if I can't make it simpler, only way I found out was with a top high school maths student and a top uni maths student telling me what it is.. barely got it myself. A 'laments' method I was given is to get the median of the two bases [area of the top base + area of the bottom base then half the answer] then times by the height. This method gives an answer thats only 1.0714x different to the frustum formula(near enough the same), so its helps to see what the answer is.

Wait, what? Raziel's 272,155 joules over 0.0032in2 is 3-5x above Bay's 3,061,968,450,612 joules over 0.08in2?

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨ 272,155 J = ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨1,393.985 psi /0.0032 = ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨ 435,620.312 psi on his claw tips.
3,061,968,450,612 J = 15,683,485,614.336 psi /0.08 ¨¨ = 196,043,570,179.2 psi on her sword edge.

Even if Bay's area is 25x Raziel's, her strength/J is still 11,250,825.6x his. [The strength difference of 11,250,825.6 ÷ size difference of 25 = 450,033.024x difference. This number*Raziel's ^ psi = Bays ^ psi. Shows that this answer is consistent.]

Aye, the vehicles are around 40mph [motorway speed generally being between min30-60max mph, the speed suggests 40mph] and Bay was running three times as fast by a) when she slid under and passed the truck 3 times its speed, b) as fast as Luka who was going at full speed. Full speed would be around 120mph. 3:43 shows the full speed car passing over Bay only for her match/best that speed to land on top, so 50m/s is about right.

On all the images I posted the blood is coming from under his head so it can't be from the mouth, and if the Blade didn't cause physical damage then it wouldn't have made it easier for Raziel. If anything it just calls question to the first scene. Think about it, if both Raziel and Kain 'knew' that his claws wont pierce him then why would they in that scene be so sure that it would? The only reason would be that the Blade does weaken your physical defense[which needs evidence] and that somehow both of them knew it too. As Raziel doesn't have extensive knowledge on the Wraith Blade, Kain even less so for not having it, neither would know if Kain's physical defense would have dropped of not. Turel is in a stronger form, Dumah in a physically much stronger form. In his opinion he's above Kain physically, for him to think that he'd have to be at least near Kain's body before. Of any of his sons Dumah would be the closest to Kain's physical body. (Meant to be physically above Raziel afaik) For being 'pure' and much older wouldnt that mean Janos would be at the minimally equal to Kain?

But the force in the Angel does not come close to the tankers force, yet it still happened. The Angel produces xjoules, the tanker yjoules and Temp zjoules, irl each one should be close to x or less. Again every feat in those verses are physically impossible, it doesn't matter how many negatives a verse has compared to another. A negative is still a negative.

-------------------
What was the bone&skin thing for?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Logical reason to say that his teleportation allows him to transfer his mass into solid mass where the target mass disperses(like air and water would) and allows the telportees mass to take its place and not the other way round. We need evidence that he can do something that only exists in theories.

How can you act aggressive to someone you don't even know is there? Unless the person gets angry at the air that is.

You know what, I think its just easier to do two calculcations, the old 700 tons one, give or take a hundred or so tons may not mean much despite how sketpical I am of this frustum thing AND your 300 ton calculation which I have done. That way, if we get to an agreement on overall forces being used and motions, durabilities etc we can say in situation A (obelisk 500-700 tons+) Bay cannot harm Kain, in situation B (300 tons) she can etc, at the moment I doubt she can harm him in either as shown by the calculations but I doubt youve finished debating this yet.

Thats easy. There are 3 shapes now; the pyramid tip [square base 175cm*175cm with a 175cm height] at 5.12 tons, the cuboid base [350cm*350cm*130cm] at 45.6411998 tons and the frustum between the cuboid and the pyramid [Height of cuboid+frustum(1300cm)- Height of cuboid(130cm)=1170cm. Insert frustum formula with a height of 1170cm] at 239.616299 which is totaled at 290.377499 tons. 312.32 tons with a 140cm cuboid height, like I said its not getting far from 300tons. A cuboid with the same dimensions as the LoK [before this post] frustum where the top area is half that of the bottom area would be 1.714x larger. Eg, a cube of 10*10*10 has a volume of 1000. A frustum with 10 height, 10*10 base at the bottom and 5*5 base at the top gives 583.333 ie 0.583x the cuboid/cuboid is 1.714x the frustum.

Technically it only loses 190 tons as the 700 tons came from a height of 20m. A cuboid of height 14m is 490 tons. Sorry if I can't make it simpler, only way I found out was with a top high school maths student and a top uni maths student telling me what it is.. barely got it myself. A 'laments' method I was given is to get the median of the two bases [area of the top base + area of the bottom base then half the answer] then times by the height. This method gives an answer thats only 1.0714x different to the frustum formula(near enough the same), so its helps to see what the answer is.

Wait, what? Raziel's 272,155 joules over 0.0032in2 is 3-5x above Bay's 3,061,968,450,612 joules over 0.08in2?

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨ 272,155 J = ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨1,393.985 psi /0.0032 = ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨ 435,620.312 psi on his claw tips.
3,061,968,450,612 J = 15,683,485,614.336 psi /0.08 ¨¨ = 196,043,570,179.2 psi on her sword edge.

Even if Bay's area is 25x Raziel's, her strength/J is still 11,250,825.6x his. [The strength difference of 11,250,825.6 ÷ size difference of 25 = 450,033.024x difference. This number*Raziel's ^ psi = Bays ^ psi. Shows that this answer is consistent.]

Aye, the vehicles are around 40mph [motorway speed generally being between min30-60max mph, the speed suggests 40mph] and Bay was running three times as fast by a) when she slid under and passed the truck 3 times its speed, b) as fast as Luka who was going at full speed. Full speed would be around 120mph. 3:43 shows the full speed car passing over Bay only for her match/best that speed to land on top, so 50m/s is about right.

On all the images I posted the blood is coming from under his head so it can't be from the mouth, and if the Blade didn't cause physical damage then it wouldn't have made it easier for Raziel. If anything it just calls question to the first scene. Think about it, if both Raziel and Kain 'knew' that his claws wont pierce him then why would they in that scene be so sure that it would? The only reason would be that the Blade does weaken your physical defense[which needs evidence] and that somehow both of them knew it too. As Raziel doesn't have extensive knowledge on the Wraith Blade, Kain even less so for not having it, neither would know if Kain's physical defense would have dropped of not. Turel is in a stronger form, Dumah in a physically much stronger form. In his opinion he's above Kain physically, for him to think that he'd have to be at least near Kain's body before. Of any of his sons Dumah would be the closest to Kain's physical body. (Meant to be physically above Raziel afaik) For being 'pure' and much older wouldnt that mean Janos would be at the minimally equal to Kain?

But the force in the Angel does not come close to the tankers force, yet it still happened. The Angel produces xjoules, the tanker yjoules and Temp zjoules, irl each one should be close to x or less. Again every feat in those verses are physically impossible, it doesn't matter how many negatives a verse has compared to another. A negative is still a negative.

-------------------
What was the bone&skin thing for?

None of this sounds logical, its just a teleport into an area. What does it matter? may as well move on from the importance of teleportation and we will have to agree to disagree.

Kain knew he was there, Marcus had no worries with attempting to mind control him. Point being, Marcus has 200 years of experiance with his power and would not even attempt to MC Kain if he had an apparent aggression "limit" (which may I add, is only in question from a described gameplay mechanics).

Shes not using a sword, shes using a head butt on the skyscraper. Per square inch of force, Kain has higher resistance than she has power based on what she did to the skyscraper. I have my doubts she can wield a sword and charge these powers and use witch time all at once, for one thing the actual charge of the energy seemed very specific in where it ended up so I cannot see her being able to simply channel it through her hands (infact the channel looked to me like it went in her leg yet it still ended up in her head) and furthermore the sword itself has no indication of surviving thousands let alone millions of tons of force, not sure I would claim even the Soul reaver can survive that and it has some evidence of its durability/supposed indestructable nature from quotes/actions.

Hm the vehicles seem fairly slow however, speed in the game looked hard to gauge although assuming Luka was going at 100 mph she took to cat form to do it, in cat form she can move 44 m/s roughly. Fair enough, proven she can cover the distance, we dont know the distance but I doubt its more than 50-100 meters. Looking on the next video however, she had to use a bike to move to her desintcation and despite being far far faster than anything on the road, I think from its "speed gauge" it can only do about 120-140 mph.

It would have made it easier if it was magical damage, the blade is like spiritual energy and if you use energy to heat something, say soften a metal its easier to break, the reaver is as i said not just a "blade" its a combination of powerful magics and spiritual sources. Both Kain and Raziel knew they could damage/destroy eachother, Kain says in the beginning that the reaver Raziel posseses is the only weapon that can kill him so one way or another their already of the belief they can destroy oneanother, the first scene is also an FMV meaning its not under the skeptical eye of gameplay graphics being at fault (e.g. blood but no real visible wound on Kain), kinda like how Dante in DMC 1 iirc has a sword go through his shirt/coat but we dont actually see tears and wounds. This is all arguable, just because their bigger does not make them stronger, and their devolved hence their appearance and furthemore their power comes from a fragment of Kains soul. Janos is as I said completly different, infact video evidence suggests janos can be manhandled by normal humans. Even young, weaker Kain in BO2 has him holding up a fully armoured soldier with one arm, the winged race are physically far weaker than Kain era vampires.

I cant tell how fast the angel moved, and as weve argued the physics are all over the place here. The tankers velocity+weight is the final energy level, how fast the angel went is irrelevent at that point.

I was trying to calculate how durable Kains bones would be compared to skin, if skin has a square inch density/resistance of 9-25+ million tons. Dont forget to defeat Kain shes going to have to do more than cut his skin, shes going to have to cut bone, a lot of it...which is far far denser and thicker than skin. We could be talking billions of tonnes of resistance in a crossection of Kains bone structure assuming she attempted to "sweep" her sword through his half section.

We also cannot forget to divide the area of her weapon/head/hands force across the area shes striking, shes not going to kill Kain by using the PSI from the end of her sword like you suggested above, small slices in Kains chest, even if she pierced all the way through his bones will mean nothing to Kain, shes going to have to try and cut him in piecies to win which is impossible if we both agree the sword does not have to feats to survive millions of tonnes of force on contact. Dont forget she only uses her guns and fists in most if not all canon encounters.

Teleportation isn't logical. Alright, this is the odd one out from everything we're discussing after all.

There are several 'maybe' and 'supposedly' from that, the top two being the difference in their effects like what Scenario is covering, or if doing so would be as effective as how he normally does it and the other being the ''weak-minded'' quote that Kain hints to.

Take it the 'situation a-b' part wasnt meant to be in the quote part. Theres not much left to debate about it really, the volume is a pyramid+frustum+cuboid. Each shape we can get a volume for. 700 tons can only come from a 20m cuboid, two things its not.

That if you believe that she has no way of applying such power to her arms, I see no reason to think this. Headbutt<Punch. Not that the sword will shatter from hitting Kain theres two other points; she can use Pillow talk which has an energy blade (cant really shatter) and is much more powerful then Shuraba, second is that as her body can take to force she can just use her nails a la Raziel. Sharp and with her durability.

Doubt they'd be moving slow on a motorway. Even if you measure the speed it comes up the same[a 17m truck passing her in 0.9s]. Panther form was to beat it, normal form was matching it. And the max speed of a normal car is 110mph/50ms, speed she was shown to be faster than when she landed on the car. Vehicle's are not a good indication against someones speed, even fast characters like Dante and Shadow prefer to use cars and bikes when they can. Even with super-speed and teleporting they still take to the wheels.

Doubt spiritual energy to a physical body is the same as friction/heat energy to metal. Their would need to be a direct link to soul and physical durability for it to work like that. Kain knew that Raziel could kill him and to that extent knew the Blade could kill him too, doesn't mean he knew how it works or its effects. Blood coming from a cut isn't just a gameplay cutscene fluke, the same with DMC(where ever scene is FMV). Id say its most likely that Turel is stronger than he used to be, definate that Dumah is. Fragment means little as some of the sons can do thing Kain cannot, like swim. Dumah could shake the whole area with a punch and runs faster than Raziel, he's physically above him, something that isn't that far of a stretch. He may not have the powers and things that Kain and Raziel do but his whole form change was to physically increase himself. There are many scenes against it; Melchiah gets cut by some blades, Turel gets cut by the Reaver, Dumah gets impaled by some sticks, Janos gets cut by a blade, Raziel gets impaled by the Reaver, Kain gets stabbed by the Reaver and then by claws. 7 instances of 500+ year old vampires getting cut to one instance suggesting the opposite is true.

Well unless it was moving at 760m/s it didn't equal the tankers force. No the tanker is only the middle chain, the final energy is the energy produced at the end of the chain ie Temp. We dont accept the Angels joules as we know that the tanker moved, yet we're not to accept Temp moving and stop at the tanker even if the relation between the Angel+Tanker is the same as the Tanker +Temp.

The relation of skin, flesh, bone etc is different in different verse. For instance most fictions have it that if you can make a cut you can cut through any part of the body while some have it that the persons skeletal structure can take massive forces without breaking but skin gets easily cut. The verse would need to cover this.

Actually the formula stops at the entry point that keeps in contact with the body, not the whole body slice. Eg if you were to drag a knife point over something it wouldn't be the whole area you dragged the knife tip over, only what the knife tip was touching at any time. Not that hard to replicate the damage of getting his heart ripped out, something that knocked him out. Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match? If so that puts more restrictions on Kain than herself.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Teleportation isn't logical. Alright, this is the odd one out from everything we're discussing after all.

There are several 'maybe' and 'supposedly' from that, the top two being the difference in their effects like what Scenario is covering, or if doing so would be as effective as how he normally does it and the other being the ''weak-minded'' quote that Kain hints to.

Take it the 'situation a-b' part wasnt meant to be in the quote part. Theres not much left to debate about it really, the volume is a pyramid+frustum+cuboid. Each shape we can get a volume for. 700 tons can only come from a 20m cuboid, two things its not.

That if you believe that she has no way of applying such power to her arms, I see no reason to think this. Headbutt<Punch. Not that the sword will shatter from hitting Kain theres two other points; she can use Pillow talk which has an energy blade (cant really shatter) and is much more powerful then Shuraba, second is that as her body can take to force she can just use her nails a la Raziel. Sharp and with her durability.

Doubt they'd be moving slow on a motorway. Even if you measure the speed it comes up the same[a 17m truck passing her in 0.9s]. Panther form was to beat it, normal form was matching it. And the max speed of a normal car is 110mph/50ms, speed she was shown to be faster than when she landed on the car. Vehicle's are not a good indication against someones speed, even fast characters like Dante and Shadow prefer to use cars and bikes when they can. Even with super-speed and teleporting they still take to the wheels.

Doubt spiritual energy to a physical body is the same as friction/heat energy to metal. Their would need to be a direct link to soul and physical durability for it to work like that. Kain knew that Raziel could kill him and to that extent knew the Blade could kill him too, doesn't mean he knew how it works or its effects. Blood coming from a cut isn't just a gameplay cutscene fluke, the same with DMC(where ever scene is FMV). Id say its most likely that Turel is stronger than he used to be, definate that Dumah is. Fragment means little as some of the sons can do thing Kain cannot, like swim. Dumah could shake the whole area with a punch and runs faster than Raziel, he's physically above him, something that isn't that far of a stretch. He may not have the powers and things that Kain and Raziel do but his whole form change was to physically increase himself. There are many scenes against it; Melchiah gets cut by some blades, Turel gets cut by the Reaver, Dumah gets impaled by some sticks, Janos gets cut by a blade, Raziel gets impaled by the Reaver, Kain gets stabbed by the Reaver and then by claws. 7 instances of 500+ year old vampires getting cut to one instance suggesting the opposite is true.

Well unless it was moving at 760m/s it didn't equal the tankers force. No the tanker is only the middle chain, the final energy is the energy produced at the end of the chain ie Temp. We dont accept the Angels joules as we know that the tanker moved, yet we're not to accept Temp moving and stop at the tanker even if the relation between the Angel+Tanker is the same as the Tanker +Temp.

The relation of skin, flesh, bone etc is different in different verse. For instance most fictions have it that if you can make a cut you can cut through any part of the body while some have it that the persons skeletal structure can take massive forces without breaking but skin gets easily cut. The verse would need to cover this.

Actually the formula stops at the entry point that keeps in contact with the body, not the whole body slice. Eg if you were to drag a knife point over something it wouldn't be the whole area you dragged the knife tip over, only what the knife tip was touching at any time. Not that hard to replicate the damage of getting his heart ripped out, something that knocked him out. Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match? If so that puts more restrictions on Kain than herself.

Scenario is not covering anything at the moment and scenarios basis as is the basis on this piece of the argument is based solely on gameplay mechanics that dont make sense considering the canon. If agression was relevent at all, Marcus would not have been surprised of failing, or even tried and weak mindedness is a point of view, he would probably call Bayonetta weak minded.

Well you would have to argue it, the fact she used an unusual part of her body like her head makes the suggestion that she did not use her arms/hands not possible we just dont know if she can use power like that. The sword will shatter from her just gripping it with a few thousand tons of force, let alone millions and if shes using Pillow talk then physical force is irrelevent. Theres no indication bayonetta can take any more force than perhaps Fortitudos weight which is iirc the heaviest shes had hit/on her. We dont know how her nails work, or how durable they are their nothing alike to LoK vampire claws. Theres a lot of assumptions required to belive she can do anything than head butt Kain or punch him at best, actual weapons would shatter.

Well they look slow so either their speed limit is low or speed in this case is not shown too well I dont know. Yes but if the feat in question shows the bike being faster than her AND the speed gauge showing around 100+ mph iirc then its a strong indication.

Well their the properties of the reaver, magic, spiritual energy, elemental powers (including fire). We dont know the facts behind it, only that it can. It does not matter, if their both under the belief they can destroy eachother with their weapons yet Kain in the FMV has no fear or worry while Raziel has no wraith blade out and just takes strikes theres a clear difference. No but if theres no wound at all visible then it is, perhaps there should have been physical damage but due to gameplay graphics just like in DMC theres resitrctions to how much damage they show. Your trying to make a case based on little real evidence, your assuming that just because their older, their just as powerful physically or more so than Kain/Raziel there is no indication of this. You cannot use one completly different character that has evolved differently because it cannot take Kains corruption, as I said Melchiah is soft and weak, Turel is unkown and Dumahs durability is unkown, we dont know when he was piked and it does not matter since its his words of pride vs Kains actual feats suggesting hes not as durable/strong as Kain.

I dont understand what your trying to claim here? point being is the tanker+speed=Tempentia down....thats it....

You just made that up......skin is softer than thick muscle/flesh which is far softer than Bone which in some cases can be stronger than concrete. The difference in Kain is enormous, theres no indication that Kains bones are softer than his skin and is a long reach in the hopes of giving Bayonetta a chance. Fact is, even if you can prove she can use a sword to slice in a sweep and penetrate Kain its going to just get stuck. Of course, the sword has no durability feats so it shatters as soon as she puts a few thousand tons into it.

If you try and put a knife through a piece of meat its going to slow down, especially if its a thick piece. For someone who can barely cut through Kains skin, shes not getting far through his flesh without it getting stuck, infact if anything shes going to lose her weapon because Kains body will start healing instantly around it as the sword slows down leaving her trying to yank her weapon from Kain, amusing to imagine 😆 yes because your likely to rip out a heart thats not even there 😬

100% in character? Bayonetta who talks a lot, fights purely against angels because she favours aiding infernal powers (which Kain more closely resembles so she may see him as a demon and ask for work 😛 ) and when she gets busy, she never goes straight for the "time freeze" and charge up skyscraper attack.....infact even fighting Jeanne with some ferocity she fights at about peak human speed and with notihng but guns and fists iirc....

Kain on the other hand? how do you think Kain will react to what simply looks like a human? he will probably just want to slice her throat and drink her blood, he may TK her blood to him from range and she dies from internal bleeding while Kain gains whatever powers she posseses. Also if he took even some blood or uses Marcus' mind powers stated above he could find out what she is, and what shes capable of and will be the first to be on guard, he may end up killing her using his large arsenal of attacks before she even deems it worth using witch time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont recall that ever happening in gameplay, I recall fighting mind controlled enemies in gameplay but you seem to be trying to twist words now. I prefer reading the "lore" in a games manuel, I usually learn the gameplay mechanics and commands later on in the game.

The only time anyone is ever controlled at any time is in gameplay. Unless you want to disallow the ability entirely, you're going to have to allow gameplay to some degree, and that means Kain is subject to the gameplay limits. Mainly because nothing in the lore says Kain can control aggressive characters and in fact says the opposite.

I never said I could accuratly predict what would happen, although I can see based on what Marcus says that in even in a few hundred years powers can "grow enormously". Yes it is 😆 , you keep grasping at exactly the same mechanics and ignoring that fact as if youve got some "factual lore based canon" backing you up.

You can't accurately predict what will happen. There ya go, nothing more need be said. You can either quantify "grow enormously" or concede that those words don't actually have any meaning here.

Hang on, why would I? wheres Bayonettas vast mental powers beyond the bishops defence?

See, the thing is, you making a claim (Kain's Charm) that goes directly against established canon (the manual.) So before this goes any further, you need to prove that claim. Until that happen, no resistance is needed, as Kain's own limitation prevents the control.

If CIS is on then Kain is far more likely to start slinging his most powerful abilities sooner than Bay who even when fighting with some seriousness uses nothing but guns and punches......

Prove this. Cutscene Kain is an almost purely physical character that never flings spells.

Every ability in one way or another is shown in cutscenes, playing silly buggers wont impress or convince me of your claims so I suggest you stop the insult. Faustus leaps and jumps distance in a lot of his scenes, sebastion runs at speeds everywhere and the charmed (including the bishop youve already mentioned) of Marcus' are present as well, infact I dont think theres anyone other than maybe the Hylden witch do not show off their dark gift before Kain acquires it and even if they did not the fact Kain shows it at some point to get past an area in the game proves it. We know what it "generally does", most spells have some kind of a description.

Yes, and they are shown in ways that are clearly superior to Kain's versions. Marcus' Charm is only shown affecting non-aggressive characters, though, unfortunately for you. Kain showing it in required sections also confirms it to be weaker. And yes, most spells do have some kind of description, like this one:

"All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power. In Charm mode, Kain is able to take complete control of another character and move him or her around a certain distance. Press the Dark Gift button to enter Charm mode and...aim the cursor at the character you want to control. Once a character is selected, press the Dark Gift button again to Charm. Kain can use this power to make characters do things that would not normally be able to do."Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. pg15 (Eidos Interactive). (2002)

Your claims are ignoring this canon description, so I suggest you prove beyond any doubt that it is false. Otherwise, you can't make your claim.

No we dont disregard abilities just because they dont have a cutscene but we dont have to resort to mechanics either. You seem to have some major confusion between gameplay, gameplay mechanics and canon lore and how each can be used as part of a logical argument. If youve been fooled into believing only a cutscene is canon then your sorely mistaken.

Strange, that's what you seem to be doing. You seem at least a little bit confused, too, as you keep telling me to stop using gameplay right before you point to a section where Kain is required to use abilities. And, of course, you keep ignoring the canon manual description that you still need to prove is false for your argument to function.

Well he would wouldnt he, hot pressure in rocks breaks them apart. Hows magnus in your little theory going to generate more power with a dark gift Kain now has? that makes no logical sense....if anything logic dictates Magnus being insane would have less control.

More power =/= more control. Have you heard of the term "retard strength?" It's pretty offensive, but it arose from the fact that mentally disabled people have trouble controlling their own strength, and often use more than is necessary, not less. This can be demonstrated if you've ever read Of Mice and Men. But I digress, you're trying to imply that Magnus being insane having less control would mean he can't generate much power, which does not logically follow. Further, why don't you prove Magnus has less control or power? It'll be pretty hard to do, what with Magnus demonstrating much more powerful explosions as compared to Kain's fire.

"berserk" is what Kains ability is labeled as in the dark gift interface, point being is that speed is the typical application in sebastions case. Nothings established that at all, your belief is that just because Kain did not use an ability in exactly the same way its not as strong, which is illogical, if that were true Kain "would not" have acquired that vampires dark gift.

You're trying to imply arms = legs, which does not follow. Kain is demonstrably slower than Sebastien in any case, and you cannot assume Kain has the same ability if he does not show it. You'd need to prove that Kain is faster than Sebastien to get anywhere, which you can't actually do because there's nothing to support it.

So you admit your only presence in this thread is to try and create some personal argument not even relevent to the thread and you have no intension of argueing about the topic? The amount of times I could leap into threads and pick apart your over proportion of abilities concerning LoZ purely for personal interest beyond the thread are numerous but I dont, its more along the lines of baiting/trolling if anything especially when you break rules to try and use gameplay mechanics like you are.

Not even close, so don't try to strawman. I'm in this thread because you made a claim that you need to own up to and prove. Stop ignoring the canon manual or prove that it's false, then prove that Kain can control aggressive characters. I don't really care what you do in other threads; if you have something to say, go ahead and say it. That's what a forum is for.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The only time anyone is ever controlled at any time is in gameplay. Unless you want to disallow the ability entirely, you're going to have to allow gameplay to some degree, and that means Kain is subject to the gameplay limits. Mainly because nothing in the lore says Kain can control aggressive characters and in fact says the opposite.

You can't accurately predict what will happen. There ya go, nothing more need be said. You can either quantify "grow enormously" or concede that those words don't actually have any meaning here.

See, the thing is, you making a claim (Kain's Charm) that goes directly against established canon (the manual.) So before this goes any further, you need to prove that claim. Until that happen, no resistance is needed, as Kain's own limitation prevents the control.

Prove this. Cutscene Kain is an almost purely physical character that never flings spells.

Yes, and they are shown in ways that are clearly superior to Kain's versions. Marcus' Charm is only shown affecting non-aggressive characters, though, unfortunately for you. Kain showing it in required sections also confirms it to be weaker. And yes, most spells do have some kind of description, like this one:

Your claims are ignoring this canon description, so I suggest you prove beyond any doubt that it is false. Otherwise, you can't make your claim.

Strange, that's what you seem to be doing. You seem at least a little bit confused, too, as you keep telling me to stop using gameplay right before you point to a section where Kain is required to use abilities. And, of course, you keep ignoring the canon manual description that you still need to prove is false for your argument to function.

More power =/= more control. Have you heard of the term "retard strength?" It's pretty offensive, but it arose from the fact that mentally disabled people have trouble controlling their own strength, and often use more than is necessary, not less. This can be demonstrated if you've ever read Of Mice and Men. But I digress, you're trying to imply that Magnus being insane having less control would mean he can't generate much power, which does not logically follow. Further, why don't you prove Magnus has less control or power? It'll be pretty hard to do, what with Magnus demonstrating much more powerful explosions as compared to Kain's fire.

You're trying to imply arms = legs, which does not follow. Kain is demonstrably slower than Sebastien in any case, and you cannot assume Kain has the same ability if he does not show it. You'd need to prove that Kain is faster than Sebastien to get anywhere, which you can't actually do because there's nothing to support it.

Not even close, so don't try to strawman. I'm in this thread because you made a claim that you need to own up to and prove. Stop ignoring the canon manual or prove that it's false, then prove that Kain can control aggressive characters. I don't really care what you do in other threads; if you have something to say, go ahead and say it. That's what a forum is for.

Gameplay limits=gameplay mechanics, the ability actually being present in gamepaly and what it does has a solid foundation in canon.

Dont have any meaning? you must have missed the part where Marcus says his powers have grown to the point where in his words "he can charm all living things" , you seem to have selective reading....

It does not go against estabished canon so I will stop you there. Also, thers no limitation that prevent control, not unless she gets a pretty good resistance feat.

Whats "cutscene" Kain got to do with anything? you make it sound like the cirumstances that Kain has faced in cutscenes are the same as those here, although heres Bayonettas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mHM7oAhBI&feature=related#t=2m9s

You cannot create a logical argument that Kain is going to treat Bayonetta the way he does Raziel.

Kains version is their version, who do you think hes getting these Dark gifts from? 😕

What the....before I even seriously answer your counter here, show me a scene canon to "lore" where Kain hints or displays (or Marcus hints or displays) selecting his target with a "cursor"? because I think youve stumbled into the "controls" page....based on your logic Kratos has to press circle after weakning something to mount it. Again your trying to insult me, your doing it in a subtle fashion but poorly executed against someone whos played the actual games which you dont seem to have done.

Your trying to compare the control of pyrokinesis to physical strength, e.g. crushing mice because you dont know when not to use force? (I have read of mice and men) that notion does not even make sense...neither does physical strength and pyrokenesis but my point was that targeting something with some power would require some sense.

Not really I am implying enhanced speed is enhanced speed regardless of limbs used. I am not assuming anything, I have the canon of the games lore pointing out that Kain devours the dark gifts of the other vampires AND a hylden, what they display is their dark gift, thats it theres nothing too complicated other than your grasping at straws (or a gameplay mechanic).

Suggesting your sole purpose here and pointing out your not debating the thread and going off-topic based on your statement is not a strawman since it has nothing to do with the argument, its a accusation 🙄 which I am well in my rights to point out. Also your entire gameplay mechanics play on words is ended by the initial video shown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwbIQcd6IVE#t=42s

Speak of the devil.

Its an odd theory that she can only charge her head with that power [even though we see her partly charging her hands in that nail clip]. Doubt it. Nope not irrelevant, in the end it gives more damage than Shuraba. If she can headbutt a skyscraper without taking damage then she's pretty durable. For her nails to cut through anything more than a tiny layer of skin we know its sharper than normal, for them being a part of her we know its as durable as her. What are the assumptions? That she can charge her hands which we see, that she can hold a sword/use nail which we see or... think thats it actually. Literally no assumptions.

([a 17m truck passing her in 0.9s]=18.7m/s=42mph*3=56m/s=125mph>=the around 110/120 figure given)=speed of Luka<Base Bayonetta=cutscene>gameplay. 50m/s is fine. And don't let the speed lines and effects fool you, on the bike she's still passing the vehicles at the same speed as when she was running until she gets to the 'red' area. The speeds are; (mph) 0 10 40 80 120 150/160 200 and whatever the red thing is... and its only when she gets past 120 that she's going faster than her movement. At full speed shes riding 2-3x faster then her running speed while not wasting any effort on running.

And that has what do to with getting a direct link between soul and physical defense/durability? It really does. There is a difference between knowing something can kill you to knowing what its going to do to you. Kain knows that the blade is Raziel, can suck souls and resists the wheel so can kill him regardless of that.. Takes more to say that Kain knows that his defense would drop after getting struck with it. Kain did not know of some durability weakening effect but knew that Raziel would and could rip his heart out. So what you're saying is that even though Raziel slashed him causing blood to pour out, making Kain hunch in pain grasping the wound.. that it didn't happen? Just because the dev's didn't draw a wound on (one that would just heal over so it'd be a waste of time back then) doesn't mean it wasn't there.. we see him get slashes, blood come out and react to the slash. Raziel in 500 years became a 300 tonner, difference is that he had more soul. Dumah had the same time, didn't have as much soul but changed specifically for strength. With a single punch he can shake the whole area, something that didn't even happen when the 300 ton obelisk hit the ground. His form now is much stronger than Raziel, most likely stronger long before. He body would be ably to take his own physical blows, yet still got impaled.

..The point is that you're agreeing that it was the 'tanker+speed=Tempentia' (even if the the 1st and 2nd law go against it) when the real equation is angel+speed=tanker+speed=Tempentia+speed. To stick with the tanker is to ignore both the previous and following changes in force. By the VG method even in the face of anomalies we go by the final and/or peak result, which in this case is the weight of Temp at its speed that required its own weight and own speed. Game physics isn't perfect, don't expect it to be so.

Did I now.. are you saying that fictions laws of biology = irl laws? His durability is what its shown to be, unless you have the figures of 'Kain's or LoK density' then it wont work. Any verse that has supernatural properties has its own rules. In fact the only way to get the answer to to see his bones resisting something much higher than his muscles otherwise it could be anything from 1.5 to 1,000x tougher. Yep, proven. Burden of proof, gonna need evidence to why someone cant use their fictional weapon at full power. She didnt break concrete with the headbutt, why would she break the blade? Proof is needed.

...what are you talking about? His regen speed < Her attack speed, so no. Failed to get the point again, ''replicate the damage'' not do the exact same thing.

So you are trying to drive this point. If Kain's the enemy, he's the enemy. And she enters Witch Time for any given reason. He'd probably fail to counter her speed, not using TK right away as per character and be full victim to her time powers. Anyway, its not a 100% in character match.

-------------------------------------
Poor Lennie. >:

(Butting in) Basically someone that isnt thinking straight wont be able to control the effects of their power. Happens in other games when the guy goes nuts and cant control the how much power they need to use. And seriously... drop that Kratos comparison. Its not even close to the same issue here.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Speak of the devil.

Its an odd theory that she can only charge her head with that power [even though we see her partly charging her hands in that nail clip]. Doubt it. Nope not irrelevant, in the end it gives more damage than Shuraba. If she can headbutt a skyscraper without taking damage then she's pretty durable. For her nails to cut through anything more than a tiny layer of skin we know its sharper than normal, for them being a part of her we know its as durable as her. What are the assumptions? That she can charge her hands which we see, that she can hold a sword/use nail which we see or... think thats it actually. Literally no assumptions.

([a 17m truck passing her in 0.9s]=18.7m/s=42mph*3=56m/s=125mph>=the around 110/120 figure given)=speed of Luka<Base Bayonetta=cutscene>gameplay. 50m/s is fine. And don't let the speed lines and effects fool you, on the bike she's still passing the vehicles at the same speed as when she was running until she gets to the 'red' area. The speeds are; (mph) 0 10 40 80 120 150/160 200 and whatever the red thing is... and its only when she gets past 120 that she's going faster than her movement. At full speed shes riding 2-3x faster then her running speed while not wasting any effort on running.

And that has what do to with getting a direct link between soul and physical defense/durability? It really does. There is a difference between knowing something can kill you to knowing what its going to do to you. Kain knows that the blade is Raziel, can suck souls and resists the wheel so can kill him regardless of that.. Takes more to say that Kain knows that his defense would drop after getting struck with it. Kain did not know of some durability weakening effect but knew that Raziel would and could rip his heart out. So what you're saying is that even though Raziel slashed him causing blood to pour out, making Kain hunch in pain grasping the wound.. that it didn't happen? Just because the dev's didn't draw a wound on (one that would just heal over so it'd be a waste of time back then) doesn't mean it wasn't there.. we see him get slashes, blood come out and react to the slash. Raziel in 500 years became a 300 tonner, difference is that he had more soul. Dumah had the same time, didn't have as much soul but changed specifically for strength. With a single punch he can shake the whole area, something that didn't even happen when the 300 ton obelisk hit the ground. His form now is much stronger than Raziel, most likely stronger long before. He body would be ably to take his own physical blows, yet still got impaled.

..The point is that you're agreeing that it was the 'tanker+speed=Tempentia' (even if the the 1st and 2nd law go against it) when the real equation is angel+speed=tanker+speed=Tempentia+speed. To stick with the tanker is to ignore both the previous and following changes in force. By the VG method even in the face of anomalies we go by the final and/or peak result, which in this case is the weight of Temp at its speed that required its own weight and own speed. Game physics isn't perfect, don't expect it to be so.

Did I now.. are you saying that fictions laws of biology = irl laws? His durability is what its shown to be, unless you have the figures of 'Kain's or LoK density' then it wont work. Any verse that has supernatural properties has its own rules. In fact the only way to get the answer to to see his bones resisting something much higher than his muscles otherwise it could be anything from 1.5 to 1,000x tougher. Yep, proven. Burden of proof, gonna need evidence to why someone cant use their fictional weapon at full power. She didnt break concrete with the headbutt, why would she break the blade? Proof is needed.

...what are you talking about? His regen speed < Her attack speed, so no. Failed to get the point again, ''replicate the damage'' not do the exact same thing.

So you are trying to drive this point. If Kain's the enemy, he's the enemy. And she enters Witch Time for any given reason. He'd probably fail to counter her speed, not using TK right away as per character and be full victim to her time powers. Anyway, its not a 100% in character match.

-------------------------------------
Poor Lennie. >:

(Butting in) Basically someone that isnt thinking straight wont be able to control the effects of their power. Happens in other games when the guy goes nuts and cant control the how much power they need to use. And seriously... drop that Kratos comparison. Its not even close to the same issue here.

Aye

Thats all we really see, you showed me the full video so I did not know what you were showing, can you give me the timing please? its completly irrelevent because its energy, not physical, therefore regardless of her strength the heat its "energy" gives off will be the same no matter how hard she swings it. not really because she struck it, it did not strike her, she hit it with a force greater than its force in slow motion, if it struck her the same thing that happened to Balder would happen to bay, the skyscraper would be smashed to ruin assuming she had that kind of durability. Ive yet to see this hand charging or that its anywhere alike to that ability, so your argument is now shes using her finger nails to fight with?

Ok fine, its just an observation as I said I concede her being able to cover the distance.

The link is that the more souls Raziel devours the stronger he gets and the reaver is pretty much his spirit after absorbing all this+the guardians, your still trying to argue the reaver as a normal sword almost as if you can make sense out of it. Whats all this "defence will drop" stuff? it was a suggestion as to why it weakened Kain for Raziels attack, there could be inumerable reasons both magical, elemental or energy based that weakeend Kain, fact is the reaver is that damned powerful and Kain knows it. Of course Kain knew Raziel could, hes just wounded him greatly, both of them look like they can barely stand after their battle. So your claim now is that Dumah is stronger because he can shake the ground with his punches? also why would he be able to take his own blows?

No laws go against it and if they do, then thats sods law I am afraid and theres no point in even calculating it because the speed+weight of the tanker is the force required to knock Temp down, the angel+throw in the stages before=tankers velocity in stage 3 which is required to knock Temp down. Bayonettas physics are possibly more or less nonexcistent and are chained to the developers whims on what would look cool at any given moment, be thankful were even calculating feats for Bay.

unless shown/said otherwise we assume certain laws are followed, were calculating physics as if their real so biology comes under the same boat otherwise we can throw all out calculations out the window from speed to weight. You have the burden of proof to prove LoK has an unrealistic durability model and that characters bones are just as durable as their bodies, trust me you wont prove anything. I think its funny that as soon as Bayonettas means of attack are down to almost null the weapons are "fictional" therefore that means their indestructable? well this is a fictional skyscraper......its properties mean its nowhere near the weight of real ones? sword=featless durability=smash!

His regen is "wounds seal almost instantly" and thats without wielding the reaver, her attack speed is "stuck in a few inches of Kains hip because she cant get it through".

You brought up this whole "its 100% in bays favour" rubbish now your talking about how its not in character...clever man.....and not being in character will still not help her ,seems she will either kill herself by using too much force, destroy her equipment or be murdered by one of Kains attacks.

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Its exactly the same issue, you just have problem seeing that. Your using a gameplay control method, simple fact its irrelvent and is actually against the rules to use mechanics.

Stupid video, you told me you were timed... *sigh* 1:43. Still gives physical damage superior to that of Shuraba. According to Newton's third law of motion, and the usual around here, Bayonetta would have to be able to take that force... in this instance with her face. Theres a charge is in the vid. Nup, my argument is that she uses Shuraba. If for some reason that doesnt work she can use the superior Pillow Talk. If no swords are taken for some reason then can just use her nails.

Nothing to do with reducing durability. No Im going by what I know; it deals physical damage and has the power to devour souls. For your idea to work it needs proof that it can munch on a soul/cause magical damage to make the persons physical defenses/durability drop. So there isn't actually any confirmed or likely reason to how can allow Raziel to impale Kain. Yeah, he know Raziel could kill him not the effects that the Wraith Blade has on his durability. Point is Kain didn't know that the blade [if it can] can make it so Raziel would be able to stab him, yet knew that Raziel could stab him. Partially my claim, his punch > 300 ton obelisk falling, his strength > Raziel's. General thing that a person can take their own hits unless contradicted by verse actions. Dumah seems to be setting the verse rules for taking high blunt force but following one of the vampire weaknesses of being impaled.

Newton's first and third law of motion. So you admit that the physics in the verse is messed up but wont accept the Temp calc for your idea on physics? To admit to the truck you ignore that the angel throw would not be able to in irl standards make the truck move at that speed. Angel gives 1MJ, truck gives 35MJ, Temp gives 6,350MJ. No stage allows the next to happen... yet it does happen.

Wait, body density doesn't even change in fiction otherwise all the superhuman characters would weigh hundreds of tons with the density increase. Its the fictional toughness that you'll need, something that can't be calculated. ...null? So strength vastly above Kain's + an edge + Witch Time is.. null? Nope it means go get me some proof that it will break.

''instantly'' means absolutely nothing without feats. Lol stuck in him? I don't even...

''Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match?'' Read carefully before making claims. Proof that she can't take her own force, proof that her weapons will break under her strength, examples of what Kain can do besides the charm argument that will put down a girl who is faster and stronger with greater time manipulation.

Team 2. Bayonetta is hands down the most powerful one here and War can't make up for his lackluster partner.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Stupid video, you told me you were timed... *sigh* 1:43. Still gives physical damage superior to that of Shuraba. According to Newton's third law of motion, and the usual around here, Bayonetta would have to be able to take that force... in this instance with her face. Theres a charge is in the vid. Nup, my argument is that she uses Shuraba. If for some reason that doesnt work she can use the superior Pillow Talk. If no swords are taken for some reason then can just use her nails.

Nothing to do with reducing durability. No Im going by what I know; it deals physical damage and has the power to devour souls. For your idea to work it needs proof that it can munch on a soul/cause magical damage to make the persons physical defenses/durability drop. So there isn't actually any confirmed or likely reason to how can allow Raziel to impale Kain. Yeah, he know Raziel could kill him not the effects that the Wraith Blade has on his durability. Point is Kain didn't know that the blade [if it can] can make it so Raziel would be able to stab him, yet knew that Raziel could stab him. Partially my claim, his punch > 300 ton obelisk falling, his strength > Raziel's. General thing that a person can take their own hits unless contradicted by verse actions. Dumah seems to be setting the verse rules for taking high blunt force but following one of the vampire weaknesses of being impaled.

Newton's first and third law of motion. So you admit that the physics in the verse is messed up but wont accept the Temp calc for your idea on physics? To admit to the truck you ignore that the angel throw would not be able to in irl standards make the truck move at that speed. Angel gives 1MJ, truck gives 35MJ, Temp gives 6,350MJ. No stage allows the next to happen... yet it does happen.

Wait, body density doesn't even change in fiction otherwise all the superhuman characters would weigh hundreds of tons with the density increase. Its the fictional toughness that you'll need, something that can't be calculated. ...null? So strength vastly above Kain's + an edge + Witch Time is.. null? Nope it means go get me some proof that it will break.

''instantly'' means absolutely nothing without feats. Lol stuck in him? I don't even...

''Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match?'' Read carefully before making claims. Proof that she can't take her own force, proof that her weapons will break under her strength, examples of what Kain can do besides the charm argument that will put down a girl who is faster and stronger with greater time manipulation.

Theres no indication that shes using anywhere near as much power there since the fleshy pod does not look that strong. Physical damage? how do you know? just because Pillow talk is a higher level weapon? Newton does not cover this at all, aside from the fact flying skyscrapers in slow motion being head butted did not come up in his theory, its oppoesite/equel reaction were talking about here where in Bay hits it with more force than it has therefore its deflected, we see it all there. The argument that force will be felt by Bay is shown when its felt by Balder, the skyscraper smashes (although technically it should have smashed when she hit it, bringing forth the belief that it may be her magic charge that launched it, not any physical force).

Physical damage, your forgetting elemental from all the enchancements it has e.g. earth, fire etc. Thats just one idea, all it needs is the evidence shown and thats whatever it did, it weakened Kain enough for Raziel to pierce him, whatever suggestion we can come up with none of it can have proof. There is one confirmed reason, the soul reaver simply is confirmed as powerful by Kain, its the strongest weapon in the verse and it weakens Kain, if you hit a piece of wood with a hammer and it cracks then punch it, you would be morel ikely to succeed after its cracked. Raziels already sliced and weakened him enough, so of course he knew, hes holding his chest from damage/weakness also what do you know of Kains knowledge? the guy has held the soul reaver sword for millenia as his weapon of choice and your sitting there trying to argue about how Kain "does not know" something as if its an important point, fact is it did and logically Kain does know just as much as Raziel. That makes no sense whatsoever...just because the obelisk did not create some sort of wave of force its not as heavy? theres no evidence for any of this. Thats not general at all (you seem to be talking about how a person can at least lift their own weight, not at least take their own punch), I dont think if my perfect clone punched me in the chest I could take it 🙄 infact I think I would double over like most people from their own punch.....

Just like how a skyscraper would not happen, Bay makes such ridiculous leaps of physics for the sake of style its impossible to gauge however, I think its fair to allow a close comrpomise for the sake of the thread by using the energy in stage 3 required to knock Temp down, the previous two stages giving stage 3 its energy. Stage 3 cannot have more energy than previous stages, especially when all the power comes from Bay in stage 1.

Weight, density, durability is incredibly high, if were not going to calculate it properly theres no point in any of this. I dont have to prove against a no limits fallacy here, your pretending Shuraba is invincible is not convincing me of anything. I may as well claim Kain when his at full strength is invincible and requires the reaver to take away my no limits fallacy 😉 funny thing is I would have at least some ground to stand on with that no limits fallacy, you dont.

That is Raziels statement on vampire anatomy, also as he says later with the reaver "it made him invincible" because it healed him as soon as a wound was made....and you think Bay who needs to charge up an attack to deal any damage at all to kains outer skin layer let alone his bones/meat will be able to charge up enough power to use her invincible (in your no limits fallacy) sword to hack through his entire body? you see thats why these debates are pointless, people are too proud to admit when their wrong. I am sitting here using time to calculate a lot of feats for your side of the argument, even silly things like skyscrapers being used as beach balls and I am happy to concede to things like her speed, witch time working yet youve not budged on any front at all..your trying to argue how shes going to use her nails to slice through Kains entire body and because that wont work, you want to bring in a no limits fallacy on the sword AND claim the biology in Kains universe means his bones are no stronger than his outer skin layer just so you dont have to concede on a point....what is the point in posting if your not going to conede on anything like I have done?

Because shes never taken her own force, infact you could argue how much physical force was actually used since we see a lot of clear magical influence that may weigh up whether much physical force was actually going through the attack. Kain just has to stand there at the moment and she will "break on him". But his offence has barely even been argued, any one of his spells from calling lighting from the heavens to draining her blood would give him the win, and your claim that she is going to dodge every physical attack is unfounded..being able to dodge one bullet does not mean you can dodge any and all attacks over a long period. Bay has to rely on her physical powers, Kain has a fair list of abilities that will make Bays close combat skills null (regardless of his physical ability) by giving him distance while having a long list of broken abilities from soul devouring, blood draining, TK, time manip of his own etc.

Originally posted by ares834
Team 2. Bayonetta is hands down the most powerful one here and War can't make up for his lackluster partner.

Is this some form of bait or do you actually belive (and have an argument) suggesting War is a more useful team member than Kain? because if you have that argument, I may be able to use war as part of my argument considering I am argueing team 1.....