Manchester Black vs Gladiator

Originally posted by leonidas
really? don't suppose you have an actual explanation why he could affect aliens and non-humans in dc but not marvel? and does that go for ANY telepath or tk'er? are you saying NO one with tk could ever affect glad's like that because he's an alien?

let's hear your reasoning.

shoe's on the other foot now 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Philosophía
Let's rephrase them a little better, for accuracy's sake.

a). He is capable of levitating and shielding himself and another guy from winds that were moving at 500 miles per minute - that is, 30,000 miles per hour. As a comparison, the most extreme winds of a tornado are moving at ~ 300 miles per hour.
b). He was using his telekinesis to throw Superman through whole mountains, and casually stopped him mid-attack and started internally affecting Superman with his telekinesis, giving him a stroke and having him bleeding, drooling on the ground.
c). He stroke'd Menagerie while he was in a completly different location.

Now, some of the most significant stuff that you've missed.

d). The Elite are tossing around power to ignite a sun.

e).They've split a moon in half.

The Hat and Menagerie don't have anywhere near the power to do something like that, which leaves Coldcast and Manchester Black. Coldcast was spent after the attack on Superman, and eventough the attack left a large spot on the moon, it's not the power to ignite a sun, or to split a moon in half.

What does this say about Manchester Black? 🙂

😂 I can't believe this.

a) Big whuptie. Wind. Keep trying to big it up. It's comic book wind
b) Through whole mountains? You mean 2 large rocks? Also, please look at the scan carefully. NOTHING indicates it was Manchester Black pushing him. In fact, The Hat was the one in attack position.

c) and?

d) You take that literally? It was Steel being Steel. Not to mention after chester dies, they're still considered extremely powerful, powerful enough to be in charge of taking care of JLA-sized threats, but in the dark. And guess what, without chester. By your logic that means his contribution was = zilch.

e) For one, you don't know anything about the moon they destroyed. Secondly, you're guesstimating that 'chester can break a moon in half? Based on WHAT? Coldcast made it clear that he has the power to do something like that because he (unlike Black) actually has a shitload of feats. Rampotatek has magic that doesn't seem to have any limits. Black has zero feats. Hmmm...let's assume Black broke the moon then (lolwut?)

Not only that, but everything Lois and Clark said referred to the Elite, not Black.

Plus, DC moons are like playgrounds. Which is why the JLA even has a Jupiter moon called "The Playground" where they play around with their powers. Flash carved a canyon in it after the obsidian age just by running around. They're not exactly adamantium planets you know, just moons :/

Originally posted by leonidas
the physiology argument is pretty hilarious. the stroke is just an example of the precision of his power. glads has eyes. he could tk blind him by exploding them. or tk melt his WHOLE brain. of use tp to locate his heart and cause it to stop. he also affected bizarro and MANY other non-human villains when he controlled them to attack superman en masse. to think he couldn't affect glads because he is alien after he's affected not just one but MANY aliens with his power already is ridiculous.

1. Carver may be wrong, but you're just as wrong by assuming a Kryptonian who gets his powers by having solar batteries for cells = gladiator that has psionic (aka brain) - based powers.

2. Would Black be performing these actions before or after he (full of rage) starts yelling out he can't detect Glads and threatens to AoE bomb the area with TK, only to die shortly thereafter?

EDIT:

I already conceded that his telepathy = impressive, but all of what you mentioned was done with prep and access to Luthor's database.

Originally posted by leonidas
really? don't suppose you have an actual explanation why he could affect aliens and non-humans in dc but not marvel? and does that go for ANY telepath or tk'er? are you saying NO one with tk could ever affect glad's like that because he's an alien?

let's hear your reasoning.

Because we are talking about a being that is COMPLETELY Invulnerable to physical harm. The only time he has ever been hurt internally was when a being that was already class 100 amped by absorbing the energy from his entire race which consisted of millions of beings. If it was that easy to take Glads out, Jean Grey or any other high end TP/TK being on the Xmen would have did it a long time ago.

Manchester isn't popping his eyes out and he sure as hell isn't messing with him internally.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
1. Carver may be wrong, but you're just as wrong by assuming a Kryptonian who gets his powers by having solar batteries for cells = gladiator that has psionic (aka brain) - based powers.

2. Would Black be performing these actions before or after he (full of rage) starts yelling out he can't detect Glads and threatens to AoE bomb the area with TK, only to die shortly thereafter?

EDIT:

I already conceded that his telepathy = impressive, but all of what you mentioned was done with prep and access to Luthor's database.

I don't know why you guys don't think Tk would affect Glads internal systems, from blood vessels to the flow of blood itself.

How does having psionic based powers affect Glads internal systems?

Are we saying that someone with any kind of psionic ability or psionic based ability is immune to Tk manip of their internal systems? Wouldn't that make Supes immune as well?

For a start Superman has super durable internal organs as every cell in his body has been shown to have nuclear reactions taking place within them and the fact that his capillaries have been said to be as hard as concrete. So really the evidence is against Glads.

Not to mention that Superman has shown psionic abilties, thus suggesting that part of his powerset is psionic based.

Just don't understand how protection from TK manip correlates to what you've said about Glads. I think you'd need similar powers to Manchester to protect yourself from that kind of manipulation.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
heh, avlon and a few others pulled the same shit in the "full-potential iceman vs superman" thread. he tried to cast doubt concerning iceman manipulating his bloodstream to achieve similar effects as manchester. superman not having blood like a human and all that etc etc

shoe's on the other foot now 😖hifty:

I remember that argument but I remember people giving theories about what Iceman could do rather than actual evidence. I think the argument was based around what that young New God with cryokinesis did to Supes.

The problem with that argument was that people were ignoring that Supes can affect the kinetics of his molecule, as in he fought the cryokinesis, such that after his body was shutting down he was able to generate enough kinetic energy with what was left to spark his body back to motion.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Let's rephrase them a little better, for accuracy's sake.

a). He is capable of levitating and shielding himself and another guy from winds that were moving at 500 miles per minute - that is, 30,000 miles per hour. As a comparison, the most extreme winds of a tornado are moving at ~ 300 miles per hour.
b). He was using his telekinesis to throw Superman through whole mountains, and casually stopped him mid-attack and started internally affecting Superman with his telekinesis, giving him a stroke and having him bleeding, drooling on the ground.
c). He stroke'd Menagerie while he was in a completly different location.

Now, some of the most significant stuff that you've missed.

d). The Elite are tossing around power to ignite a sun.

e).They've split a moon in half.

The Hat and Menagerie don't have anywhere near the power to do something like that, which leaves Coldcast and Manchester Black. Coldcast was spent after the attack on Superman, and eventough the attack left a large spot on the moon, it's not the power to ignite a sun, or to split a moon in half.

What does this say about Manchester Black? 🙂

waller remarked that superman would need a jetpack and the space shuttle to reach coldcasts power ranking btw.
and i think you are shortselling hat by quite a lot, hes just as physically invulnerable as blacks tk shield, can pull almost anything out of his hat and may or may not be an elemental

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't know why you guys don't think Tk would affect Glads internal systems, from blood vessels to the flow of blood itself.

How does having psionic based powers affect Glads internal systems?

Are we saying that someone with any kind of psionic ability or psionic based ability is immune to Tk manip of their internal systems? Wouldn't that make Supes immune as well?

For a start Superman has super durable internal organs as every cell in his body has been shown to have nuclear reactions taking place within them and the fact that his capillaries have been said to be as hard as concrete. So really the evidence is against Glads.

Not to mention that Superman has shown psionic abilties, thus suggesting that part of his powerset is psionic based.

Just don't understand how protection from TK manip correlates to what you've said about Glads. I think you'd need similar powers to Manchester to protect yourself from that kind of manipulation.

My point was two-fold.

1. It's very possible that Clark and Kallark have differing physiologies. Due not only to the fact that they are both aliens from different universes and planets, but also due to the fact that their powers work differently.

2. Manchester's fine TK manipulation was not done once on the spot on someone new to him. He studied Superman as he was obsessed with him, so when he decided to apply the stroke he already knew what he had to do, how his brain was panned out, which capillary to squeeze. He "recircuited" Bizarro's brain allowing him to think clearly with a combination of TP and TK with PREP and access to Luthor's database. He had worked with Menagerie for a long time, he knew her inside out.

There's nothing telling him about Kallark's physiology, which capillaries he needs to squeeze (assuming his brain is even mapped out the same way as a human or clark).

That's if he goes for the stroke.

If he goes for eye popping action or anything like that, we have no way of knowing how Gladiator's Psionic defenses would hold up. It is a different situation, because chester made it clear that Superman's brain vessels were tough, like tubes of concrete BUT vulnerable to TK. Supes has a bioelectric shield giving him his invulnerability. Gladiator has a psionic shield giving him his. So where does that leave us?

Wondering if maybe 'chester's TK would work on someone that is an Alien, has psionic derived powers, he's never met before, and CAN move at speeds that proved to be TOO MUCH TO HANDLE in chester's one single fight.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
😂 I can't believe this.

a) Big whuptie. Wind. Keep trying to big it up. It's comic book [B]wind
b) Through whole mountains? You mean 2 large rocks? Also, please look at the scan carefully. NOTHING indicates it was Manchester Black pushing him. In fact, The Hat was the one in attack position.

c) and?

d) You take that literally? It was Steel being Steel. Not to mention after chester dies, they're still considered extremely powerful, powerful enough to be in charge of taking care of JLA-sized threats, but in the dark. And guess what, without chester. By your logic that means his contribution was = zilch.

e) For one, you don't know anything about the moon they destroyed. Secondly, you're guesstimating that 'chester can break a moon in half? Based on WHAT? Coldcast made it clear that he has the power to do something like that because he (unlike Black) actually has a shitload of feats. Rampotatek has magic that doesn't seem to have any limits. Black has zero feats. Hmmm...let's assume Black broke the moon then (lolwut?)

Not only that, but everything Lois and Clark said referred to the Elite, not Black.

Plus, DC moons are like playgrounds. Which is why the JLA even has a Jupiter moon called "The Playground" where they play around with their powers. Flash carved a canyon in it after the obsidian age just by running around. They're not exactly adamantium planets you know, just moons :/ [/B]

hat has to remove his hat in order for anything to happen, this is proven by every other time he uses his magic in the issue.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
waller remarked that superman would need a jetpack and the space shuttle to reach coldcasts power ranking btw.
and i think you are shortselling hat by quite a lot, hes just as physically invulnerable as blacks tk shield, can pull almost anything out of his hat and may or may not be an elemental

Definitely.

but seeing Superman still made him shit his pants in Ending battle biscuits

Originally posted by Allankles
I remember that argument but I remember people giving theories about what Iceman could do rather than actual evidence. I think the argument was based around what that young New God with cryokinesis did to Supes.

The problem with that argument was that people were ignoring that Supes can affect the kinetics of his molecule, as in he fought the cryokinesis, such that after his body was shutting down he was able to generate enough kinetic energy with what was left to spark his body back to motion.

man this thread is pissing me off SO MUCH. i let a (former!) friend borrow the book that had that issue in it and he never gave it back... i could be so much more detailed in my arguments T.T

google is your new best friend

yes but i love paper copies so much more...

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
😂 I can't believe this.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
NOTHING indicates it was Manchester Black pushing him. In fact, The Hat was the one in attack position.

Yeah, that's not necessary.

Or of the fact that The Hat still had his, well, hat on, and he was clearly getting ready to take it off?

It's not a good way to start a conversation by saying something that is so off base.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
a) Big whuptie. Wind. Keep trying to big it up. It's comic book [B]wind [/B]

You see, in the normal world, we make a difference between "his shields are repelling wind" and "the shields withstood a wind moving at 30,000 miles/hour, a speed aproximately 100 times than that of the most extreme winds within a tornado".

It's similar to making the difference between "the guy can take a punch" and "the guy can take a punch from Hulk.

And what does "comic book wind" even supposed to mean?

I'm barely into your second argument, and I find this too dumb to continue.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
d) You take that literally? It was Steel being Steel.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Not to mention after chester dies, they're still considered extremely powerful, powerful enough to be in charge of taking care of JLA-sized threats, but in the dark. And guess what, without chester. By your logic that means his contribution was = zilch.

e) For one, you don't know anything about the moon they destroyed. Secondly, you're guesstimating that 'chester can break a moon in half? Based on WHAT? Coldcast made it clear that he has the power to do something like that because he (unlike Black) actually has a shitload of feats.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermanvselite4.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermanvselite5.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermanvselite6.jpg

That's as far as Coldcast's offensive limits go.

Yet, they have split a moon in half, and spilled enough power to ignite a sun. Like I said, this makes Manchester Black, considering the other's lack of power to do so, a major powerhouse. 🙂

Just because we haven't been given the size/mass of the moon doesn't mean that we can't consider the feat.

But it's hilarious that you seem to think so.

Has the unspecified characteristics of the planets that Silver Surfer or Gladiator stopped everybody from considering them veritable planet busters?

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~

Plus, DC moons are like playgrounds. Which is why the JLA even has a Jupiter moon called "The Playground" where they play around with their powers. Flash carved a canyon in it after the obsidian age just by running around. They're not exactly adamantium planets you know, just moons :/

that...

they're "DC Moons"...

..and it's not like they're "adamantium planets"?

😂

I don't know how I haven't noticed you earlier.

You're one of the new breeds of dumb?

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
❌

Unless you count every single bad guy who's ever managed to cause him pain as = herald level which is just lolworthy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What's lolworthy is implying that the mere act of causing pain is commensurate with giving Superman a stroke.

Originally posted by carver9
Because we are talking about a being that is COMPLETELY Invulnerable to physical harm.

Originally posted by Philosophía
That you're being called out on your overly-simplistic presentation of the feats?
You're aware that Manchester Black doesn't need to get into a kung-fu position in order to use his telekinesis, right? Or that he doesn't need to go into a 'stretched hands' pose?

Yeah, that's not necessary.

Or of the fact that The Hat still had his, well, hat on, and he was clearly getting ready to take it off?

It's not a good way to start a conversation by saying something that is so off base.

😂

You see, in the normal world, we make a difference between "his shields are repelling wind" and "the shields withstood a wind moving at 30,000 miles/hour, a speed aproximately 100 times than that of the most extreme winds within a tornado".

It's similar to making the difference between "the guy can take a punch" and "the guy can take a punch from Hulk.

And what does "comic book wind" even supposed to mean?

I'm barely into your second argument, and I find this too dumb to continue.

Teh supreme argument.

Just because they're given lip-props for being on the Justice League level without Chester doesn't account for the fact that in the initial team, besides Manchester Black and Coldcast, nobody was on the level of moon-busting. Thus, between them, they'd have to have 'moon splitting capabilities'. Out of the two of them, Coldcast showed a clear limit in power - he was barely able to fly after doing an attack that eventough was relatively big, but still small compared to the size of the moon.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermanvselite4.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermanvselite5.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermanvselite6.jpg

That's as far as Coldcast's offensive limits go.

Yet, they have split a moon in half, and spilled enough power to ignite a sun. Like I said, this makes Manchester Black, considering the other's lack of power to do so, a major powerhouse. 🙂

Just because we haven't been given the size/mass of the moon doesn't mean that we can't consider the feat.

But it's hilarious that you seem to think so.

Has the unspecified characteristics of the planets that Silver Surfer or Gladiator stopped everybody from considering them veritable planet busters?

So your argument for why him having the power to split a moon in two is unimpressive is..

that...

they're "DC Moons"...

..and it's not like they're "adamantium planets"?

😂

I don't know how I haven't noticed you earlier.

You're one of the new breeds of dumb?

are you saying coldcast is incapable of concentrating his blasts? superman clearly took the brunt of that blast, coldcast had his head in his hands...

actually the size of the moon is given, i think... they named it in the story, its one of jupiters moons

anyway, gladiator loses hard