Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda isn't the greatest at everything. In fact, I've rarely heard anything acknowledging his lightsaber skills above those of others.
Originally posted by RagingBonerYeah but that still doesn't mean Yoda was better than everyone at every form. For instance, there's nothing that indicates his mastery of Form III was better than Obi-Wan's. Same can be same about his mastery of Form II vs. Dooku's. Or his mastery of Form VII vs. Mace's. Etc.
The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia confirms that Yoda is a master of all seven forms.
Heck, you have to be a high-level master of multiple forms just to start learning how to control Juyo/Vaapad - something Mace (and a few others) had no problem achieving in his/their lifetime. That said, I'd certainly hope Yoda could master seven forms of combat (to some extent) in 900+ years.
ermmnone
Originally posted by NephthysHis lightsaber skills are also a reason.
Well yeah they needed one of the Jedi who can definetely take Grievous. But they also wanted someone cunning who will stop at nothing to get the job done. As GG has shown himself in the past to be a brilliant tactician. And has always escaped when getting beat by Jedi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Show me Ventress actually beating him and we'll talk. Becuase he beats her a hell of a lot more than she does him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWK6VWqZrCc
Skip to 1:11. She beats him in a Saber fight. Knocks him to the floor leaving him lying there and disarmed. If Anakin wasn't there, Kenobi would be finished.
Skip to 2:00. She proves shes more powerful than him in the Force as well.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah but that still doesn't mean Yoda was better than everyone at every form. For instance, there's nothing that indicates his mastery of Form III was better than Obi-Wan's.
Read the AOTC novel, fight between Yoda and Dooku. Yoda is standing still perfectly balanced just defending. His defences were so amazing Dooku tried his very best and was not able to get past them. I dnt think Kenobi has ever demonstrated a defence THAT good, which is above Dooku's capability to get through.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERWatch the AotC film:
Read the AOTC novel, fight between Yoda and Dooku. Yoda is standing still perfectly balanced just defending. His defences were so amazing Dooku tried his very best and was not able to get past them. I dnt think Kenobi has ever demonstrated a defence THAT good, which is above Dooku's capability to get through.
At no point does Yoda just stand in on place and casually deflect multiple attacks from Dooku.
---
@ JT
I'm not saying Obi-Wan would do better than Yoda did against Sidious (obviously he wouldn't.) However, Yoda's form of choice is Ataru - that's what he's the best at. That's the form which allows him to dominate pretty much any opponent. All I was referring to is there not being much to indicate that his mastery of Soresu was greater than Kenobi's. Same with Dooku and Makashi, as well as Mace and Form VII.
Originally posted by NephthysSo? Kit Fisto could kick their asses too.
Doubt it. Qui-Gon was considered one of the best swordsmen in an order that included Fisto.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Quotes for these?
Most the quotes about just how good a swordsman Qui-Gon is are from TPM novel during the Darth Maul fight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Non-canon.
Then it is also non-canon that Dooku had difficulty with Kenobi's defences. Im not sure whats so difficult to understand here. You guys are taking and disregarding evidence from the novel(s) as you please.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You think they can put more pressure on his defence than Greivous or Dooku? Lol.
LOL Kenobi was Never Any kind of pressure for Dooku at all.
And yeah considering Qui-Gon would be a Jedi council member if he just followed the code, and that he was one of the best swordmen in the Galaxy, I can certainly see him + young Obi-Wan together being much more difficult to take than GG.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi can hold off Grievous and Dooku in sabers.
LOL He CANT hold off Count Dooku!
Originally posted by Nephthys
He can hold off two people who couldn't even get through Maul's defences.
Yeah because Maul was just some easy padawn to defeat right? (the quote-"one of the most highly trained sith apprentices" comes to mind) And yet Kenobi gets disarmed, knocked down and force choked by Ventress, a Sith wannabe.
Originally posted by Galan007
Watch the AotC film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TKeC6t2fCwAt no point does Yoda just stand in on place and casually deflect multiple attacks from Dooku.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then it is also non-canon that Dooku had difficulty with Kenobi's defences. Im not sure whats so difficult to understand here. You guys are taking and disregarding evidence from the novel(s) as you please.
Well yeah they needed one of the Jedi who can definetely take Grievous. But they also wanted someone cunning who will stop at nothing to get the job done. As GG has shown himself in the past to be a brilliant tactician. And has always escaped when getting beat by Jedi.
I can't recall any of this being said in the actual scene to tell the truth. All thats said in both the scene and the novelisation is that 'a master is needed, someone with experience.' However, cunning doesn't seeme to have jack diddly to do with it considering Kenobi's actions.
Skip to 1:11. She beats him in a Saber fight. Knocks him to the floor leaving him lying there and disarmed. If Anakin wasn't there, Kenobi would be finished.Skip to 2:00. She proves shes more powerful than him in the Force as well.
She kicks him in a saber fight. That isn't the same as defeating him. We don't kknow how fast he recovered from that, as we don't see him again in the scene, so we can't say whether he would have recovered in time.
She's drawing on battl-erage here. Theres extenuating circumstances and its not something she can do normally.
Read the AOTC novel, fight between Yoda and Dooku. Yoda is standing still perfectly balanced just defending. His defences were so amazing Dooku tried his very best and was not able to get past them. I dnt think Kenobi has ever demonstrated a defence THAT good, which is above Dooku's capability to get through.
This never occurs in the movie.
Doubt it. Qui-Gon was considered one of the best swordsmen in an order that included Fisto.
As of TPM. And as I've told you, being one of the best doesn't mean much, especially since A) most lightsaber fights are decided by force strength (POD) and B) The same is true of Obi-Wan.
Most the quotes about just how good a swordsman Qui-Gon is are from TPM novel during the Darth Maul fight.
They also mention that age has dulled him to the point where his experience is the only 'edge' he has. He's not at the top of his game.
Then it is also non-canon that Dooku had difficulty with Kenobi's defences. Im not sure whats so difficult to understand here. You guys are taking and disregarding evidence from the novel(s) as you please.
No we're not. Him being kicked in the face directly contradicts the movie. Him having trouble with Kenobi's defence is a matter of interpretation, and could easily have happened off-screen.
LOL Kenobi was Never Any kind of pressure for Dooku at all.
That wasn't what I said.
And yeah considering Qui-Gon would be a Jedi council member if he just followed the code, and that he was one of the best swordmen in the Galaxy, I can certainly see him + young Obi-Wan together being much more difficult to take than GG.
The same GG that defeated three Jedi Council Members and 2 other Jedi Knights at the same time?!
I doubt it.
LOL He CANT hold off Count Dooku!
'In sabers.'
Yeah because Maul was just some easy padawn to defeat right?
And Kenobi is?
And yet Kenobi gets disarmed and knocked down by Ventress, a Sith wannabe.
A Sith wannabe who has defeated Jedi Council Members, including Kit freakin' Fisto before.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't recall any of this being said in the actual scene to tell the truth. All thats said in both the scene and the novelisation is that 'a master is needed, someone with experience.' However, cunning doesn't seeme to have jack diddly to do with it considering Kenobi's actions.
In the movie they say "a master with more experience is needed". Nothing about Kenobi's great sword skills being needed.
In the novel mace was blowing kenobi's trumpet a lot, prepping him for his mission one on one, but when the council discuss it Mace says "then let the chancellor know we will be sending our most cunning and tenacious jedi to catch grievous" Kenobi was confused who this was, but it seemed obvious to the rest of the council.
Originally posted by Nephthys
She kicks him in a saber fight. That isn't the same as defeating him. We don't kknow how fast he recovered from that, as we don't see him again in the scene, so we can't say whether he would have recovered in time.
He was on the floor and disarmed. If nothing else it shows she was "winning" and that she can pass his defences.
Originally posted by Nephthys
She's drawing on battl-erage here. Theres extenuating circumstances and its not something she can do normally.
Speculation. Sidious says before this fight that she's grown powerful.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They also mention that age has dulled him to the point where his experience is the only 'edge' he has. He's not at the top of his game.
Yeah thats true. He wasn't in his prime. And yet was still said to be a powerful jedi, and one of the best swordsmen.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No we're not. Him being kicked in the face directly contradicts the movie. Him having trouble with Kenobi's defence is a matter of interpretation, and could easily have happened off-screen.
Ah but not only does the novel contradict the movie here, but it also contradicts itself. Because in the same novel he thinks this, he kicks him in the face.
Fact is Kenobi in the movie gave Dooku no trouble at all in Sabers. He one handed holds off both Anakin and Kenobi. Although it was shown Anakin kept forcing him back, Kenobi never gave him any trouble whatsoever. Any trouble he was feeling was just the extra pressure Kenobi was putting on top off the real powerhouse there- Anakin.
So in either case Dooku's thoughts on the matter (in the novel) are meaningless.
In the novel mace was blowing kenobi's trumpet a lot, prepping him for his mission one on one, but when the council discuss it Mace says "then let the chancellor know we will be sending our most cunning and tenacious jedi to catch grievous" Kenobi was confused who this was, but it seemed obvious to the rest of the council.
I have the novel out in front of me, but I can't find that bit.
'
"I believe we all agree on that," Anakin said briskly. "Let's move to the operational planning. The Chancellor has requested that I lead this mission, and so I-"
"The Council will decide this," Mace said sternly. "Not the Chancellor."
"Dangerous, Grievous is. To face him, steady minds are needed-Masters, we should send."
Perhaps of all the Council, only Obi-Wan could detect the shadow of disappointment and hurt that crept into Anakin's eyes. Obi-Wan understood perfectly, and could even sympathize: to take the field would have slipped Anakin out from under the pressures of what he saw as his conflicting duties.
"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I recommend we send only one Jedi-Master Kenobi."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right.
Obi-Wan nodded. Perfectly logical. Everyone would agree. Except Anakin. He leaned forward, red climbing his cheeks. "He wasn't so successful the last time he met Grievous!"
"Anakin-" Obi-Wan began. "No offense, my Master. I am only stating a fact."
"Oh no, not at all. You're quite right. But I have a feel for how he fights now-and for how he runs away. I am certain I can catch him."
"Master-"
"And you, my young friend, have duties here on Coruscant. Extremely important duties, that require your full attention," Obi-Wan reminded him. "Am I being clear?"
Anakin didn't answer. He sank back into his chair and turned away.
"Obi-Wan, my choice is," Yoda said.
Ki-Adi-Mundi's image nodded. "I concur. Let's put it to a vote."
Mace Windu counted nods. "Six in favor."
He waited, looking at Anakin. "Further comment?"
Anakin only stared at the wall.
After a moment, Mace shrugged.
"It is unanimous."'
Is it later than that?
He was on the floor and disarmed. If nothing else it shows she was "winning" and that she can pass his defences.
I'm sure nobody will claim that is defences are unbreachable (any more). But Ventresses skill, her battle rage and the fact that he had just crash landed imo make this an acceptable and understandable slip on his part.
Speculation. Sidious says before this fight that she's grown powerful.
She's clearly immenslly pissed off that Dooku dumped her.
And if she's grown powerful then theres no shame in losing to her.
Yeah thats true. He wasn't in his prime. And yet was still said to be a powerful jedi, and one of the best swordsmen.
The novel says he 'was' one of the most able jedi and that he 'had' been one of the best.
Ah but not only does the novel contradict the movie here, but it also contradicts itself. Because in the same novel he thinks this, he kicks him in the face.
Again, the novel is only invalid when it directly contradicts the movie (barring any massive lapses in continuity). Internal thoughts do not do this. Kicks do.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I have the novel out in front of me, but I can't find that bit.
Chapter 11 Politics, pg.212
"Agreed." Mace Windu looked around the half-empty Council Chamber with a deepening frown. "And one last touch. Let's let the Chancellor know, through Anakin, that our most cunning and insightful Master- and our most tenacious- is to lead the hunt for Grievous."
"So Sidious will need to act, and act fast, if the war is to be maintained," Plo Koon added approvingly.
Yoda nodded judiciously. "Agreed." Agen Kolar as-sented as well, and Ki-Adi-Mundi.
"This sounds like a good plan," Obi-Wan said. "But what Master do you have in mind?"
For a moment no one spoke, as though astonished he would ask such a question.
Only after a few seconds in which Obi-Wan looked from the faces of one Master to the next, puzzled by the expressions of gentle amusement each and every one of them wore, did it finally register that all of them were looking at him.
Originally posted by NephthysExactly, I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
No we're not. Him being kicked in the face directly contradicts the movie. Him having trouble with Kenobi's defence is a matter of interpretation, and could easily have happened off-screen.
There is a very distinct scene which cuts to Palpatine as Kenobi is engaging Dooku (we can only hear sabers colliding in the background.) When the film cuts back to the battle, Anakin is out of the scene completely, and we see Dooku force push Kenobi backward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_dxW4NpDU
(Starts at 0:56)
All we're doing is filling in that gap with the novel's description... Which, imo, is the most logical thing to do.
Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly, I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.There is a very distinct scene which cuts to Palpatine as Kenobi is engaging Dooku (we can only hear sabers colliding in the background.) When the film cuts back to the battle, Anakin is out of the scene completely, and we see Dooku force push Kenobi backward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_dxW4NpDU
(Starts at 0:56)All we're doing is filling in that gap with the novel's description... Which, imo, is the most logical thing to do.
That's all good and all. Then by this logic, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Dooku broke through Kenobi's defense and kicked him in his face during the cut-away as well. 🍺
JT
Then by this logic, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Dooku broke through Kenobi's defense during the cut-away as well.
Not unless there's nothing to support such a notion. Galan and N. are using the line edited novelization to fill in the gaps between scenes in the films, not merely proffering their own personal interpretations and beliefs.
Originally posted by RagingBonerThe novel states that Dooku kicked Kenobi in the face, does it not?
Not unless there's nothing to support such a notion. Galan and N. are using the line edited novelization to fill in the gaps between scenes in the films, not merely proffering their own personal interpretations and beliefs.
JT
The novel states that Dooku kicked Kenobi in the face, does it not?
As far as I remember, yes.
Understand that I'm not exactly following this debate, simply wanting to elaborate on your contention that it is not unreasonable to conclude 'X'. As long as you have canon material supporting what you say and you can provide evidence that the event in question occurred during the 'cutaway', you're solid.
It's cool man! All I'm saying is that it's just as logical to assume that Dooku's breach of Kenobi's defense happened in said cut-away as it is to assume N and G007's position of Dooku struggling w/ Kenobi's defense as stated here:
Originally posted by Nephthys
...you'll notice theres a cut between when he blocks Anakin and Kenobi together o when he's Force pushing Kenobi. All that needs to happen to make the story consistent is to assume that more time passed between cuts than is apparent.
...given that it in no way contradicts the movie and is stated in the novel. Canon source + lack of contradiction = it happened.
Originally posted by Jinsoku TakaiExcept we can hear lightsabers colliding during the entire cut away, and Kenobi is still standing when the scene cuts back to he and Dooku. So no, it's not logical to assume that Dooku ninja-kicked him during that cut away.
Then by this logic, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Dooku broke through Kenobi's defense and kicked him in his face during the cut-away as well. 🍺
What is far more logical to assume is that Dooku engaged Kenobi for a moment, realized his defense was too solid to try and penetrate in that situation, thus he opted to pwn him with the force (which is what the novel states happened.)
Originally posted by Galan007
Except we can hear lightsabers colliding during the entire cut away, and Kenobi is still standing when the scene cuts back to he and Dooku. So no, it's not logical to assume that Dooku ninja-kicked him during that cut away.What is far more logical to assume is that Dooku engaged Kenobi for a moment, realized his defense was too solid to try and penetrate in that situation, thus he opted to pwn him with the force (which is what the novel states happened.)
So... let me get this right... since you're going by 'real time', you're saying that Dooku realized in a one-on-one encounter w/ Kenobi that lasted for all of 2 seconds that he couldn't breach Kenobi's defense because it was too damn difficult? That's ***king hilarious!!
Originally posted by Jinsoku TakaiBecause Dooku isn't one of the best lightsaber practitioners ever, and knows absolutely nothing about form/technique, right? srsly
So... let me get this right... since you're going by 'real time', you're saying that Dooku realized in a one-on-one encounter w/ Kenobi that lasted for all of 2 seconds that he couldn't breach Kenobi's defense because it was too damn difficult? That's ***king hilarious!!
For instance: I'm certainly not a professional fighter, but it would only take one hit from Anderson Silva for me to know I'm outclassed.