ROTS Obi-Wan runs a gauntlet

Started by Jinsoku Takai8 pages
Originally posted by Nephthys
'The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. [b]No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.' [/B]

Mace Windu's swordplay against Sidious appeared as "Dozens of blades attacking from every angle." Dozens > 20

Whether Skywalker was there or not doesn't affect the fact of Mace's speed. Therefore the quote (from the same novel and author no less) regarding no human being able to even remotely move that fast is garbage.

That part contradicts the movie.

Its actually told from Anakin's perspective:

Anakin skidded to a stop.

Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.

More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.

This was Vaapad's ultimate test.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind-the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force.'

Note that the narration only says that he's 'Almost too fast to see.' whereas Grievous literally is too fast to see. And it only says it 'seemed' there was dozens at once.

Yeah, per the film Anakin didn't enter the chamber until after Mace had already beaten Palpatine. So anything he supposedly said/thought/saw regarding the battle before that point = non-canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That part contradicts the movie.

If we are going to do it that way so does Grievous attacking at twenty strikes per second...

Shhh.

No-ones figured that out yet.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Well going by their feats since he was able to stand up to Grievous. I admit though that I don't know crap about them other than that they are apparently good swordsmen.

Thery're apparently amongst the best swordmen in the history of the jedi order! I doubt thats ever been said about Koth.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Also he didn't beat Grievous:

He didn't defeat him. One Force Push does not equal a win. 😐

I think holding him off in a sword fight,(while under the pressure of having GG's magnaguards around him), and then sending GG flying back landing on the floor with a Force push, shows Koth was winning.

If he wasn't the magnaguards would not have intervened as they were just watching at first.

Oh and Kenobi also finished the Saber fight against GG via a Force Push.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Not really. They couldn't even defend against Palpatine's blitz. According to the ROTS novelisation, Grievous is faster than Palpatine. 😐

You honestly think its harder o defend against Grievous than Sidious?! Come on man!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. All you've said so far is that since Kit Fisto could beat him so could Qui-Gon. Thats blatantly stupid. 😐

Hey? I never said that! I did say theres a lack of evidence that Kenobi is above Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi's defeat of Grievous and his defence against his fabled '20-strikes per second' on top of the Labyrinth feat on top of the personal glorifying from Windu and even Dooku, who described his defence as 'perfect' are superior to anything Qui-Gon has demonstrated. ROTS Kenobi is well > Qui-Gon and his younger self by a longshot. He would defeat Maul should they fight again, and Maul kicked the crap out of those two without even breathing hard afterwards.

Qui-Gon has been said to be one of the greatest swordsmen of TPM era. Has been said to have been the equal of Mace Windu(TPM era) in Lightsaber sparring. His Lightsaber Instructor stated Qui-Gon was the best swordsman he had seen in his 200 years of training Jedi.

Dooku knocked through that "perfect" defence of Kenobis in the ROTS novel without much difficulty. Qui-Gon has the aid of a young energetic and fully trained Obi-Wan in this match.

Maul had a double blade designed to fight mutiple Jedi. Obi-Wan only has the one sword to fight off 2 Jedi both utilizing fast and powerful strikes via ataru.

Theres a fair few Jedi who can defeat GG. As for holding off the 20 strikes per sec.. Yes thats impressive. But picture this, Qui-Gon and Young Obi-Wan will both be on opposites sides of ROTS Kenobi. With his single blade and considering the caliber of Qui-Gon Im not sure Kenobi will be able to handle this fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You do know he was toying with them right? He controlled the fight from beginning to the end.

Spoiler:
Up until Kenobi did his wonder flip thing at least.

He might have been winning, and even controlling the fight. But he killed as soon as he had the chance.

Spoiler:
Apart from right at the end when he was toying with Obi-Wan, once Qui-gon was dead and Obi-Wan disarmed and hanging for his life
Thery're apparently amongst the best swordmen in the history of the jedi order! I doubt thats ever been said about Koth.

Its never been said, but that doesn't mean it can't be true. Being 'among the best' is kinda meaningless too. Are they among the top ten? The top hundred? Top ten thousand?

Plus he didn't beat Greivous in sabers. Stop acting like he did.

I think holding him off in a sword fight,(while under the pressure of having GG's magnaguards around him), and then sending GG flying back landing on the floor with a Force push, shows Koth was winning.

Not at all. If he was winning he would have pressed his advantage after the push. If he was winning he wouldn't have been giving ground and being forced back constantly throughout the duel. He force pushed Greivous because he was adumbass and stood there wide open for it. It was PIS.

If he wasn't the magnaguards would not have intervened as they were just watching at first.

Speculation.

Oh and Kenobi also finished the Saber fight against GG via a Force Push.

After dominating the duel and cutting off two of his hands. Koth? Not so much.

You honestly think its harder o defend against Grievous than Sidious?! Come on man!

Just pointing it out.


Hey? I never said that! I did say theres a lack of evidence that Kenobi is above Kit Fisto.

So? Kit Fisto could kick their asses too.

Qui-Gon has been said to be one of the greatest swordsmen of TPM era. Has been said to have been the equal of Mace Windu(TPM era) in Lightsaber sparring. His Lightsaber Instructor stated Qui-Gon was the best swordsman he had seen in his 200 years of training Jedi.

Quotes for these?

Dooku knocked through that "perfect" defence of Kenobis in the ROTS novel without much difficulty.

Non-canon.

Maul had a double blade designed to fight mutiple Jedi. Obi-Wan only has the one sword to fight off 2 Jedi both utilizing fast and powerful strikes via ataru.

You think they can put more pressure on his defence than Greivous or Dooku? Lol. They couldn't even brake through Mauls defences. Kenobi's are vastly superior.

Theres a fair few Jedi who can defeat GG. As for holding off the 20 strikes per sec.. Yes thats impressive. But picture this, Qui-Gon and Young Obi-Wan will both be on opposites sides of ROTS Kenobi. With his single blade and considering the caliber of Qui-Gon Im not sure Kenobi will be able to handle this fight.

Kenobi can hold off Grievous and Dooku in sabers. He can hold off an enraged Ventress without even using a lightsaber. He can defend against 50+ droids all firing on him at once. He can hold off two people who couldn't even get through Maul's defences.

He might have been winning, and even controlling the fight. But he killed as soon as he had the chance.

Or as soon as he got bored.

Eeth Koth didn't defeat Grievous, but the general definitely wasn't winning.

Shhhhh, only dreams now.

What are you trying to get at, regarding Grievous and Koth and whatever?

Missed this. Sorry. He's trying to degrade Kenobi's feat of defeating Grievous by making out that Grievous is shit and lots of people could defeat him,* as well as belittling the Councils choice to send him after Grievous because of his skills with Soresu by arguing that since alot of people can beat him then the Council was simply showing favouritism in sending him rather than doing so based solely upon his skill.

I disagree.

*

Spoiler:
Something getting harder to defend against with the Asstastic treatment he's been getting in Clone Wars. It's like Labyrinth of Evil and CWC never happened.

N.
Missed this. Sorry. [b]He's trying to degrade Kenobi's feat of defeating Grievous by making out that Grievous is shit and lots of people could defeat him,* as well as belittling the Councils choice to send him after Grievous because of his skills with Soresu by arguing that since alot of people can beat him then the Council was simply showing favouritism in sending him rather than doing so based solely upon his skill.

I disagree.

*

Spoiler:
Something getting harder to defend against with the Asstastic treatment he's been getting in Clone Wars. It's like Labyrinth of Evil and CWC never happened.
[/B]

It's actually a bit of both.

General Grievous isn't the unstoppable badass he was depicted to be in previous EU works. In the director's commentary of ROTS, George makes it very clear that the general is simply a moderately powerful coward. Count Dooku alludes to the fact that the general needs more than just his reflexes and training if he's to defeat the best that the Jedi have to offer; he needs to rely on his superior intellect and cunning to get the job done. That's precisely how he defeats Masters Fisto and Koth in their respective battles: He owns the terrain and isn't afraid to rely on backup.

Looking at his performances holistically, the most accurate conclusion seems to be that General Grievous is more than a match for most Jedi, particularly the padawans and Knights. But in a contest with a Jedi Master or, worse, a Jedi High Council member, he'll need to draw on resources other than just his lightsaber skill. He's clearly not a pushover and has even defeated Obi-Wan in the series in a relatively one-on-one duel, but he's clearly not quite equal to the likes of Obi-Wan, Fisto, Koth and other Jedi Council members in a strict fight.

Before TCW animated series came about, Grievous was holistically depicted as a match for any Jedi on his own - proof of this can be found in Labyrinth of Evil, CWC, and a host of other comic books.

However, most people seem to completely disregard the aforementioned plethora of evidence, just because Fisto and Koth did well against him in TWC (even though Fisto was stated to be one of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced, and even though GG was only using two blades [not four] against Koth.) Meh, whatevs.

G007
Before TCW animated series came about, Grievous was holistically depicted as a match for any Jedi on his own - proof of this can be found in Labyrinth of Evil, CWC, and a host of other comic books.

Yeah, I'm aware of all this and support the general's more badass incarnation.
That said, the new series is T-canon and George made it pretty clear in the ROTS director's commentary that Grievous is nothing more than a moderately powerful coward, which is why the current show shows him as less intimidating or impressive in combat than what we saw of him earlier.

G007
However, most people seem to completely disregard the aforementioned plethora of evidence, just because Fisto and Koth did well against him in TWC (even though Fisto was stated to be one of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced, and even though GG was only using two blades [not four] against Koth.) Meh, whatevs.

No one's disregarding anything.
General Grievous isn't a push-over and is clearly capable of holding his own against some of the best that the Jedi have to offer.
But the days of the good general manhandling everyone but Yoda and Mace are long, long gone.
He relies on assistance, deceit, and a generally superior intellect to defeat the true badasses around rather than outright skill.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Yeah, I'm aware of all this and support the general's more badass incarnation.
That said, the new series is T-canon and George made it pretty clear in the ROTS director's commentary that Grievous is nothing more than a moderately powerful coward, which is why the current show shows him as less intimidating or impressive in combat than what we saw of him earlier.

No one's disregarding anything.
General Grievous isn't a push-over and is clearly capable of holding his own against some of the best that the Jedi have to offer.
But the days of the good general manhandling everyone but Yoda and Mace are long, long gone.
He relies on assistance, deceit, and a generally superior intellect to defeat the true badasses around rather than outright skill.

That post wasn't directed at you, Gid. It just seems that some people are very quick to low-ball Grievous without considering any of his showings outside of TCW... Which doesn't make any sense to me.

His battles with Fisto and Koth in TCW may not have painted the General in 'teh uberest' of lights, but they certainly weren't low showings either (for reasons I mentioned above.) Furthermore, said battles still don't contradict any of GG's showings in other canon sources, so there's no reason said sources should be disregarded/not used in forum battles. Just MO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[b]He's trying to degrade Kenobi's feat of defeating Grievous by making out that Grievous is shit and lots of people could defeat him,* as well as belittling the Councils choice to send him after Grievous because of his skills with Soresu by arguing that since alot of people can beat him then the Council was simply showing favouritism in sending him rather than doing so based solely upon his skill.

I disagree.

*

Spoiler:
Something getting harder to defend against with the Asstastic treatment he's been getting in Clone Wars. It's like Labyrinth of Evil and CWC never happened.
[/B]

Iv stated from the novel the Council unanimously agreed to send Kenobi because he was their most "cunning and tenacious jedi". Thats hardly belittling the Council's choice.

I still believe when it comes to smarts and wisdom that Kenobi is one of the greatest Jedi, so of course the whole Council have a right to think very highly of him as a Jedi.

But in Combat I dnt see him above Ventress, in fact I personally think she can take him. Which is nothing to be ashamed of, still better than the vast majority of jedi, but not close to any of the Prequel Greats. Not in Sabers or in the Force.

I've stated from the novel the Council unanimously agreed to send Kenobi because he was their most "cunning and tenacious jedi". Thats hardly belittling the Council's choice.

I disagree. Your accusations of favouritism sound like belittling to me.


I still believe when it comes to smarts and wisdom that Kenobi is one of the greatest Jedi, so of course the whole Council have a right to think very highly of him as a Jedi.

His lightsaber skills are also a reason.

But in Combat I dnt see him above Ventress, in fact I personally think she can take him. Which is nothing to be ashamed of, still better than the vast majority of jedi, but not close to any of the Prequel Greats. Not in Sabers or in the Force.

Show me Ventress actually beating him and we'll talk. Becuase he beats her a hell of a lot more than she does him.

Do any of you really believe Kenobi is more cunning than master Yoda? Do you really believe that Kenobi is a greater master of defensive lightsaber combat than Yoda? I for one will not, CAN NOT, buy that.

Yoda isn't the greatest at everything. In fact, I've rarely heard anything acknowledging his lightsaber skills above those of others.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda isn't the greatest at everything. In fact, I've rarely heard anything acknowledging his lightsaber skills above those of others.

Blasphemous SCUM!! 😠

I'd say that his duels w/ Dooku and his disarming of Sidious, speak volumes about his skills w/ a lightsaber.

How long do you really think Kenobi would last against Sidious in lightsaber combat?