Originally posted by namorsubby
Ignoring the fact that Slade is as strong as twenty men and has SUPERhuman strength while cap does not......
Last I check Slade has almost superhuman strength.
While Cap has Superhuman strength as he's a one man army and has the strength of half platoon of "fighting" men. Just using your type of logic against you.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
10 times above human level is not above Cap. Not even close.
Cap's reactions are at least on par with Wolverine's, and Logan can chamber and throw a punch .038 seconds. Which is 7-8 times faster than a normal humans finger tip reaction time. That means that if you were doing one of those tests on the computer where you press enter when you see a light flash, that when that light flashed... Wolverine could punch you 7-8 times full boar in the face before you could press said button. Who knows how much faster his finger tip reaction time is? Like you said, 10x human isn't above Cap. Not. Even. Close.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I'm just using Namorsubby logic against him. I don't really believe that and view them pretty much as equals.
I was going to say, I remember when you thought it was a toss up. I guess Subby pushed you too far. How odd is it that here we are, almost four years latter, and he still hasn't provided you with a strength feat?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap's reactions are at least on par with Wolverine's, and Logan can chamber and throw a punch .038 seconds. Which is 7-8 times faster than a normal humans finger tip reaction time. That means that if you were doing one of those tests on the computer where you press enter when you see a light flash, that when that light flashed... Wolverine could punch you 7-8 times full boar in the face before you could press said button. Who knows how much faster his finger tip reaction time is? Like you said, 10x human isn't above Cap. Not. Even. Close.
And that's extremely low end.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I was going to say, I remember when you thought it was a toss up. I guess Subby pushed you too far. How odd is it that here we are, almost four years latter, and he still hasn't provided you with a strength feat?
Indeed. Honestly I truthfully believe Slade is a evil version of Cap.
But sometimes you just gotta use the same mind set of the other. Its odd you and me usually have been at odds many times but on this subject we seem to be on the same side at least.
I feel what u r saying, namorsubby 4real. But I will say this. Steve will give Slade the fight of his life every time. And after spending more time reading his comics and getting more of a deeper sense of who he is, made me realize Steve has to be a low level superhuman to some degree.
In the "Blood Stone Hunt" story arch, Steve descended from the "flag Ship" to the ground about 20 stories high without a parachute. And took the impact from the landing without any sign of pain or stress. That feat is above peak human ability.
In "Last Will And Testament", Slade also leaped off a building from over 22 stories high, and landed on the ground without any injuries. So I would say that they are very near each other physically. But Slade displays more control overall in all of his abilities, very similar to Bruce in a way.
Slade's HF factor truly is better. he's been shot in the head and it only slowed him down. Stabbed through the chest with a sword on more than one occasion. Even had his heart sliced in two. And can fool machines into thinking he's not recovering when he really is. His muscles don't even twitch, no wasted movement. The guy ran and leaped through spinning fan blades in an air duct, while dodging gun fire without missing a beat. And as a solider, what can Steve do that Slade can't? Sure Steve has more in knowing more fighting styles. But Slade has more in reaction time, thinking, and damage soak imo.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Indeed. Honestly I truthfully believe Slade is a evil version of Cap.But sometimes you just gotta use the same mind set of the other. Its odd you and me usually have been at odds many times but on this subject we seem to be on the same side at least.
I think we are pretty much only at odds on the order of a martial skill hierarchy, and your opinion that chi is legitimate extension of skill, and having chi by default makes a character a more technically skilled fighter.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
So, question to Cap supporters. Do you really, truthfully see Cap being able to tool Batman with the ease that Deathstroke has in the past? Do you truly believe that Cap would have the luxury to treat Batman like an annoying pest?Because I can give two shits if Cap has lifted more when we have a direct comparison with Slade trouncing someone who is to any reasonable person a peer to Cap. Someone (Batman) who has comparable feats in most areas to Cap, someone who's higher end WTF showings (which I think personally we should just leave out) are superior to Cap's.
I, for one, don't see Cap beating down Batman like Slade did. If you compare just strength and durability, sure, I can see the argument for Cap and Slade being equals. Unfortunately, strength and durability aren't the only things Slade packs. His senses shit on Caps, to be frank - though Cap seeing bullets is and was a good feat for him - and Slade also has the healing factor to work toward his advantage.
I just find it odd that Deathstroke seems to be one character who is constantly accused of having a massive jobber aura and PIS heavily working in his favor and in the same breath, characters such as Batman and Cap and Logan are held to a different standard than he.
I think Rogers would ultimately beat Batman in a pure physical encounter, but he wouldn't utterly humiliate him like Slade did.
Seriously Cap's healing ability is being underrated for sure. Guy is practically immortal.(thanks to ICT threads I borrowed it for here)
Healing/Recovery/immunities feats
"My metabolism doesn't let me get drunk.
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6972/ca27v4.jpg
"I don't get drunk I can't."
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6588/ca16018wy2.jpg
Keeps up with Logan in drinking as they already been to 5 other bars.
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/885/wolviewx11legioncps016.jpg
John Steele who can throw jeeps like baseballs and has bullet proof skin does a elbow strike on Steve's leg. As Steve tells Beast "I heal fast".
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/3923/secretavengers09017.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7997/secretavengers09020.jpg
Cap's hands are burnt bad in the fires. They'll heal once were out of here.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9479/captainamerica23503gz0.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/983/captainamerica23504lb9.jpg
Cap got burned from alien tech. "Amazing his burns are already healing".
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8403/captainamericatowozp01zhu7.jpg
Bullet to the shoulder no worries for Cap. "I heal fast" "I'm built that way"
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8254/camedusaeffect047te3.jpg
Cap handles poison.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9079/capamericav135902roughelb5.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3644/capamericav135903rougheyz9.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7200/capamericav135904rougheme7.jpg
Was offered paramedics for being in a bad explosion. Cap's answer "not necessary"
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1355/captainamerica373p05py4.jpg
Cap takes a thrashing from Namor. Namor impressed how quickly Cap recovers.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3066/captainamerica42319yz3.jpg
(Cap was going to go another round with Namor later on)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7059/captainamerica42323bn3.jpg
A alien agent was affecting many including super humans like She-Hulk, but not Captain America.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4048/wca04914ml6.jpg
An aging formula that makes you old an die affect Cap and the Red Skull. It eventually killed off RS as he couldn't handle a fight with Cap(Red Skull didn't have a cloned body of Cap yet.) But Cap mentions the SSS is what is keeping him alive despite it rapidly aging him.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4213/captainamerica301p10wy0.jpg
A process to turn men into perfect woman was tried on Captain America and superhuman Paladin. Notice there more worried about Captain America.
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6816/captainamerica391ocd02bz0.jpg
(his mental acuity is drastically decreased but she's still worried about Cap)
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7945/captainamerica391ocd04fb8.jpg
(SSS could resist it. Near toxic levels, increase the level.)
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9431/captainamerica391ocd10ae5.jpg
(Enough sedative to kill a horse but not Cap)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9523/captainamerica391ocd11ph8.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5682/captainamerica391ocd12kq1.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4527/captainamerica391ocd13sd1.jpg
Again a lethal virus created by the Red Skull. It killed more then 1000's and affected She Hulk badly as it put others like Scott(Cyclops) in medical care for a long time. Cap was exposed to it throughout most of Black Panthers/Ironmans fight with Skull.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/511/avengersv306806rougher.jpg
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/1853/avgrs6908ng4.jpg
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/8633/avgrs6918to1.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/9521/avgrs6919ik8.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7321/avgrs6920hg7.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4886/avengersv307005rougherpi0.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7585/avengersv307016roughergl9.jpg
Remember the punishment Cap took in Civil War he recovers rather quickly for his rematch with Ironman.
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/540/scan0017fm7.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8685/scan0007sv2.jpg
And hear Cap looks healthy despite what he took previous as he even has the advantage on "Extremis" Ironman. Tony's even down and puking.
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4513/scan0037tb6.jpg
Bullet to the head lots of blood splattered. Steve died and healed a bullet to the head.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4069/capfalcon1310fr2.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9591/capfalcon1318je2.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7548/page003004sn5.jpg
The SSS grants slowed aging and Cap's other enhancement from WW2.
Sersi a eternal notes Cap like her is "ever youthful" as she can wait for Steve.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8804/avengersv132814rougher.jpg
Other SSS characters find out his father has slowed aging due the SSS.(Josiaha/Isaiha)
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1773/crewv100518rougher.jpg
Cap is eternal like Hydra. Which helps explain why Cap always comes back from the dead.
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2370/hydra01019.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6469/hydra02018.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3623/hydra03022.jpg
Old issue Cap contemplating possibly being alone forever.
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8682/avengersv103721livefore.jpg
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Skill by itself is nigh impossible to quantify in fiction.It all can be defined by separate attributes such as reaction time/reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, and general speed.
Honestly, "skill" feels like such a loaded term in comics, especially when it comes to fighting.
For example, Batman knows a bunch of exotic and fancy ass martial arts - 127 or something or another. Captain America, while stated to have mastered virtually every style of fighting and combat (just as Batman has) tends to look less flashy or showy, which makes people think he's not as skilled as Batman. Does knowledge of more arts/discipline make you more skilled? Or does the implemention of them in real world situations make you more skilled?
Take a brawler like Thor. Definitely not what I or anyone else would label a master MMA in the conventional sense, but Thor's fighting ability is not uneffective and as far as brawling goes, he's quite skilled at it - and yes, you can be skilled at brawling contrary to what others might think.
I think people think the more flashy and "ooh, he's like a ninja!" you are, the more skilled you are and if you're not like that or have random fancy flips and other shit, you must be some kind of punk. And in a medium which is focused around still images, that's kind of misleading.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I just find it odd that Deathstroke seems to be one character who is constantly accused of having a massive jobber aura and PIS heavily working in his favor and in the same breath, characters such as Batman and Cap and Logan are held to a different standard than he.
Batman, Cap and Wolverine don't beat the Titans one day (Slade's never legitimately beat any Teen Titans except the loser v2 Titans... but lets just go with that misconception for the sake of clarity) and then have Nightwing hand their asses to them the next? Or struggled with Arsenal? Or Azrael? Or lost to Eddie Fryers? Or Deadshot? Or Vigilante? Or Pantha? Or David Cain? Or any number of street level characters. With prep Slade is a monster, without it he was barely able to beat Batman... a Batman who only wanted to talk and was trying to reason with him. Some people seem to have this misconception that he is a legitimate "team buster," but most of the times he fought the Titans he did so with prep, there was only a few of the Titans present... and he still ended up running away.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Honestly, "skill" feels like such a loaded term in comics, especially when it comes to fighting.For example, Batman knows a bunch of exotic and fancy ass martial arts - 127 or something or another. Captain America, while stated to have mastered virtually every style of fighting and combat (just as Batman has) tends to look less flashy or showy, which makes people think he's not as skilled as Batman. Does knowledge of more arts/discipline make you more skilled? Or does the implemention of them in real world situations make you more skilled?
Take a brawler like Thor. Definitely not what I or anyone else would label a master MMA in the conventional sense, but Thor's fighting ability is not uneffective and as far as brawling goes, he's quite skilled at it - and yes, you can be skilled at brawling contrary to what others might think.
I think people think the more flashy and "ooh, he's like a ninja!" you are, the more skilled you are and if you're not like that or have random fancy flips and other shit, you must be some kind of punk. And in a medium which is focused around still images, that's kind of misleading.
End Result effectiveness is all that matters.
*while being able to keep yourself out of harms way as well.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batman, Cap and Wolverine don't beat the Titans one day (Slade's never legitimately beat any Teen Titans except the loser v2 Titans... but lets just go with that misconception for the sake of clarity) and then have Nightwing hand their asses to them the next? Or struggled with Arsenal? Or Azrael? Or lost to Eddie Fryers? Or Deadshot? Or Vigilante? Or Pantha? Or David Cain? Or any number of street level characters. With prep Slade is a monster, without it he was barely able to beat Batman... a Batman who only wanted to talk and was trying to reason with him. Some people seem to have this misconception that he is a legitimate "team buster," but most of the times he fought the Titans he did so with prep, there was only a few of the Titans present... and he still ended up running away.
But when Batman solos the JLA it's alright? Or when Captain America staggers the Hulk with his bare hands? Or when for the sake of the story, Logan's healing factor is portrayed as being on a whole other level than what's typical? It's a double standard and it doesn't really fool anyone, nor should it. Does Slade have PIS moments? Of course he does, and one of the biggest, if not THE biggest PIS moment he had, being when he no sold the Lasso of Truth, the same weapon which has spiritually overwhelmed Hecate and Ares and can cause psychic napalms. But to act like Slade isn't on the same level as Batman/Cap while refusing to acknowledge or judge them by the same standard as Slade is pretty much the definition of bias.
And no, Batman wanted to bring Slade in before long. Slade refused. Batman didn't like that. And Slade didn't really give a shit. Making excuses for Batman when it's clear in the context of the story and fight itself that Batman was the aggressor and Slade wanted only to handle his business by himself does no one any credit. If Slade wanted to actively dismantle Batman instead of just get away and fulfill his mission, what do you honestly think would have happened?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Honestly, "skill" feels like such a loaded term in comics, especially when it comes to fighting.For example, Batman knows a bunch of exotic and fancy ass martial arts - 127 or something or another. Captain America, while stated to have mastered virtually every style of fighting and combat (just as Batman has) tends to look less flashy or showy, which makes people think he's not as skilled as Batman. Does knowledge of more arts/discipline make you more skilled? Or does the implemention of them in real world situations make you more skilled?
It is established Marvel Canon that Captain America is more skilled than Shang-Chi. Should that be the case? Debatable, but it is the case none the less. Shang-Chi is the Marvel equivalence of Richard Dragon, if he was transported to the DC universe based on feats he would easily be in contention for the top spot. Batman isn't even in the top five. If Captain America is considered to be more skilled than Shang-Chi then it stands to reason he is more skilled than Batman. This is the product of Marvel having a much larger and more diverse street level scene than DC does. DC is Marvel, if Marvel pretty much capped their street level characters at Shang-Chi (Richard Dragon) or Elektra (Lady Shiva) in order to keep everyone tethered to Daredevil (Batman), but Marvel doesn't do that. Captain America is on a skill level that doesn't exist in DC proper a level above characters like Dragon / Shiva / Cass. Obviously there is Karate Kid, but he doesn't exist in DC proper. Now this hierarchy will likely change now that DC is getting a significant influx of Wildstorm characters, many of whom can fill the previously missing gabs in DC's street level base.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
But when Batman solos the JLA it's alright? Or when Captain America staggers the Hulk with his bare hands? Or when for the sake of the story, Logan's healing factor is portrayed as being on a whole other level than what's typical? It's a double standard and it doesn't really fool anyone, nor should it. Does Slade have PIS moments? Of course he does, and one of the biggest, if not THE biggest PIS moment he had, being when he no sold the Lasso of Truth, the same weapon which has spiritually overwhelmed Hecate and Ares and can cause psychic napalms. But to act like Slade isn't on the same level as Batman/Cap while refusing to acknowledge or judge them by the same standard as Slade is pretty much the definition of bias.And no, Batman wanted to bring Slade in before long. Slade refused. Batman didn't like that. And Slade didn't really give a shit. Making excuses for Batman when it's clear in the context of the story and fight itself that Batman was the aggressor and Slade wanted only to handle his business by himself does no one any credit. If Slade wanted to actively dismantle Batman instead of just get away and fulfill his mission, what do you honestly think would have happened?
Does anyone ever seriously bring up Batman beating the JLA, or Cap koing the Hulk, or Wolverine pulling himself out of a vat of molten metal? I don't really think so. Most of that stuff only comes up when someone on the other side brings up some blatant PIS for whoever they are supporting, when a thread degenerates in to a PIS battle. Alternatively people bring up Slade hitting the Flash all the damn time.... and the do it with a straight face because they think they are legitimate feats.
Slade is on the same level as Batman, he'd take him for a slight majority 6-6.5/10 in a straight up no prep match... but he isn't beating Cap. Slade is essentially Black Panther. Superhuman stats and senses, but not on the same level of skill as the top tier streets (Slade more so than Panther). Which is why Daredevil can give Panther a fight before going down. Which is why Batman can give Deathstroke a fight before going down. Captain America has those same stats... but he also has nearly peerless skill to go with it. Captain America is Daredevil in Black Panthers body. He is Batman in Deathstroke's body. He has the stats and the skill. Slade's stats are enough to give him the edge over someone like Batman, but they aren't enough to give him the edge over someone like Cap.
Slade came at Batman with his freaking power staff, and Batman was saying "I just want to talk." He didn't even use any gadgets. That's not an excuse... it's the context of the fight. You can argue about how much of a handicap Batman actually had in the fight, but he clearly had one. He wasn't going all out, and Slade still left the fight hurting.
