CISless Zoom vs Odin

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's if you give their superspeed its full faith and credit on a purely extrapolatory viewpoint. Which begs the question: should we be doing that?

i don't think we CAN. because it has never been shown what that end might be. i'm willing to give some lee-way for the sake of cis in their cases, but to go as far as some are willing to go?

imo, no. there has to be at least SOME sort of proof to support these kinds of claims, and i don't see it. can they throw a million punches? sure. can they throw a million imps when we've really only ever seen flash throw ONE and zoom....never?

i think extrapolation has it's place--bu it can't be given free reign. least not imo, and not without a LOT more evidence to suggest anything of this magnitude.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think we CAN. because it has never been shown what that end might be. i'm willing to give some lee-way for the sake of cis in their cases, but to go as far as some are willing to go?

imo, no. there has to be at least SOME sort of proof to support these kinds of claims, and i don't see it. can they throw a million punches? sure. can they throw a million imps when we've really only ever seen flash throw ONE and zoom....never?

i think extrapolation has it's place--bu it can't be given free reign. least not imo, and not without a LOT more evidence to suggest anything of this magnitude.

which zoom?

Originally posted by Uriel005
It's not necessarily the assumption that he can do so but more of facts at least for flashes IMP numbers If he swings his arms for the steps he takes at light speed going by how the IMP works every one of those arm pumps is an IMP based on the fact that the IMP is just flash oving at near/above lightspeed at the point of impact. He can accelerate his arms that fast so it really wouldn't be an issue. Zoom hits as hard as superman on fingersnaps and you mean to tell me the average person cant snap their fingers repeatedly given all the time in the world..

Cause the logic you are using fits the same bill.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think we CAN. because it has never been shown what that end might be. i'm willing to give some lee-way for the sake of cis in their cases, but to go as far as some are willing to go?

imo, no. there has to be at least SOME sort of proof to support these kinds of claims, and i don't see it. can they throw a million punches? sure. can they throw a million imps when we've really only ever seen flash throw ONE and zoom....never?

i think extrapolation has it's place--bu it can't be given free reign. least not imo, and not without a LOT more evidence to suggest anything of this magnitude.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So you're telling me...

With a straight face...

That Zoom....

Can hit with the force of thousands of galaxies?

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin isn't some high herald or even powerful trans tier character, Odin is a high end SKYFATHER that's busted galaxies on a whim.

Odin didn't even budge an inch when Thanos was unloading on him, the same Thanos that knocked Galactus off his feet and clear across a moon so IMPs aren't going to do jack.

Odin transmutes Zoom to an insect then steps on him. Fight over.

Again, an IMP can be greater than any physical force that Thanos can exert. How is Odin going to turn anyone to anything when he is a statue?

Originally posted by SasuOna
Can Odin react before Zoom hits him? No
Can Odin tank multiple IMPS? No
Can Odin hit a CISless Zoom with any of his attacks? No

Hmmm I'm finding it really hard to see how Odin can win this

Cue Odin is a skyfather argument in 3,2,....1

If you can't show an argument from a comic then you don't have an argument. You never have hence the hilarity/desperation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
When has Zoom showed the power to destroy a galaxy ? Odin can amp his size. Zoom has hit people far less than Odin with millions of punches not even koing them so you don't have any evidence whatsoever to prove he can ko Odin especially Odin amping his own abilities and fighting at his best.

If you can't show an argument from a comic then you don't have an argument. You never have hence the hilarity/desperation.

He doesn't need to show it for it is implied when D.C. explained IMP (which is based off special relativity). Zoom doesn't kill he just wants to instruct.

An attosecond to a second is the same as a second to 31.71 billion years.
How many punches can Zoom you throw in 31.71 billion years where each punch is as powerful as he wants it to be?

Originally posted by h1a8
He doesn't need to show it for it is implied when D.C. explained IMP (which is based off special relativity). Zoom doesn't kill he just wants to instruct.

An attosecond to a second is the same as a second to 31.71 billion years.
How many punches can Zoom you throw in 31.71 billion years where each punch is as powerful as he wants it to be?

We've seen Zoom fail to beat top tiers with his millions of punches and hit as hard as Superman which won't do much if anything to Odin.

Originally posted by h1a8
One of the flashs showed attosecond reaction time yet Zoom>them. An attosecond is to a second is the same as a second is to about 31.71 billion years.

Also the IMP can be ANY force Zooms wants. He could make it a billion tons, a quintillion tons, the mass of a galaxy, the mass of thousands of galaxys, etc. It could only take one punch minimum if Zoom wanted it to.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You didn't answer my question. How many punches does he throw before Odin is capable of reacting, taking for granted that they are as powerful as you say?

Originally posted by Newjak
So anybody moving Lightspeed would be capable of achieving IMPS, so Thor flying around would be able to deliver IMPs as fast as he can twirl his hammer.

Cause the logic you are using fits the same bill.

funny thing is, I ASKED THIS ABOUT HALF-A-DOZEN TIMES IN THE LAST THREAD!!

and even if someone wants to say--it only works in DC, well, than superman can do so as well (and i think he HAS--he shattered a moon or something, can't recall exactly the context). but.... no one really wants to seem to pursue that particular logic string to it's end. apparently only flash or zoom can use an IMP, though, logically, there is no reason whatsoever that would say others couldn't do it.

except, well....... they haven't. you, know, like zoom hasn't. 😐

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Well, disregarding IMPs for a second, doesn't Zoom at superspeed levels hit as hard as Superman anyway?

it seemed that way according to ww at least.

my problem with characters like flash and zoom is a simple one--to accept pis/cis in their cases renders ALL OF THEIR APPEARANCES effectively disingenuous. all the times they've ever been in trouble from a villain, almost everytime their was a threat to thmeselves or the earth or their 'loved ones', all of that was allowed because they were stupid, and because the plot called for them to NOT use their powers effectively. it makes them the dumbest characters ever. seriously. why would anyone read them if the premise is they COULD beat everyone, it's just the writers ACTIVELY WORKING AGAINST THEM. almost everytime.

so, for me, personally, i prefer to use their most consistent showings to gauge the extent of their powers.

i'm not even claiming it's illogical to say he could throw a billion superman punches (though it is equally logical clark could throw at least thousands of imp's as well), what i'm saying is that because he has never done anything REMOTELY CLOSE, we can't just say he could OBVIOUSLY do so. imo, it is far too big a departure from what we have actually seen, and seems to go against what the character is intended to be. at least, again, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
funny thing is, I ASKED THIS ABOUT HALF-A-DOZEN TIMES IN THE LAST THREAD!!

and even if someone wants to say--it only works in DC, well, than superman can do so as well (and i think he HAS--he shattered a moon or something, can't recall exactly the context). but.... no one really wants to seem to pursue that particular logic string to it's end. apparently only flash or zoom can use an IMP, though, logically, there is no reason whatsoever that would say others couldn't do it.

except, well....... they haven't. you, know, like zoom hasn't. 😐

And yeah Flash is the only person to use an IMP.

Personally people like to pursue everything to to its logical real world conclusion but neglect to remember we're not dealing with real world beings.

Odin isn't like us and bound by our human forms of logic. Heck he can seemingly make something from nothing, you have any idea how many laws of physics that little tid bit alone breaks.

He can see and perceive lightyears worth of space and time at a single glance.

I know using the argument he is a Skyfather is kind of pointless but when you see what Odin can do its hard to argue against him unless he is going against a clear superior and higher up on the food chain.

Originally posted by Newjak
So anybody moving Lightspeed would be capable of achieving IMPS, so Thor flying around would be able to deliver IMPs as fast as he can twirl his hammer.

Cause the logic you are using fits the same bill.

It's the same reason he doesn't speedforce barrier break around Zoom. If you had him do it all the time then there would be no story and it is possible for Barry Bart Wally and a few other speedforce users to do without assistance. It is the ultimate form of movement bar having something like worlogog or Space gem. Nothing should ever be able to hit them as they are going too fast and if anyone omnidirectional blasted then under the wonky rules of the speedforce due to it being its own dimension which the flashes can enter they could walk into the speedforce dimension to dodge the attack regardless of what it is.

So we can conclude this about the flash

1) As fast as he can move his arms he can punch
a) He can move his arms at speedforce barrer break level and deliver a ridiculous number of punches faster than 1/picosecond because he is breaking the absolute limitation of speed on the universe at a speedforce barrier break level.
b) as long as they are FTL they are all IMP

2) Unless you can access speedforce dimension which requires speedforce powers to access as far as I'm aware you can't stop the Flash from dodging any attack you make simply by running into the speedforce dimension.

3) Speedforce has some wonky rules and abilities like fighting the anti-life equation which btw if anyone could explain that to me I'd be quite grateful.

So if Odin diverted his time power to achieve existing or moving ahead in time like how zoom's power work, Odin would also be able to move faster than light and deliver IMP as well right?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So if Odin diverted his time power to achieve existing or moving ahead in time like how zoom's power work, Odin would also be able to move faster than light and deliver IMP as well right?

Its just as disingenuous to say that Odin can not be held to the standards of other characters because hes not human or "hes a skyfather". Whats the point in debating anything if we aren't at least honest and trying to use some logic when debating about these characters.

If Odin can see light years away does that mean that he can prevent himself from looking like a statue to the Flash?
If Odin's best physical durability feat un amped is taking a punch from Thanos does that mean he can weather a blitz of IMPS?

This thread uses circular logic because one side refuses or should I say prefers to not look at a perspective were a highly fictionalized universe uses logic that indeed applies to something other then said fictional universe.
Its annoying

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes! INFINITE MASS PUNCH. The closer one gets to the speed of light then the more mass they gain. Zoom can get as close as to the speed of light as he wants and thus making the force of his punch ANYTHING HE WANTS.

Show me anything in the comics suggesting or hinting at Zoom doing an IMP, much less being able to hit with the force of "anything he wants", much less the force of thousands of galaxies.

Seriously, this shit needs to stop. Nothing about the Flashes/Speedforce/etc suggest anything close to them being able to hit with the force of an entire galaxy, much less thousands of them. No writer has ever tried to push that as their upper limit of power. It's an incredible baseless assumption and the definition of no limits fallacy and makes Zoom/Flash characters on a level there was never any intent in making them.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Its annoying

I know rite?

Thousands of galaxies worth of striking power, extrapolating Flash and Zoom to levels that their comics never put them or even allude to if they "go all out"...

It's incredibly annoying.