CISless Zoom vs Odin

Originally posted by SasuOna
Its just as disingenuous to say that Odin can not be held to the standards of other characters because hes not human or "hes a skyfather". Whats the point in debating anything if we aren't at least honest and trying to use some logic when debating about these characters.

If Odin can see light years away does that mean that he can prevent himself from looking like a statue to the Flash?
If Odin's best physical durability feat un amped is taking a punch from Thanos does that mean he can weather a blitz of IMPS?

This thread uses circular logic because one side refuses or should I say prefers to not look at a perspective were a highly fictionalized universe uses logic that indeed applies to something other then said fictional universe.
Its annoying

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Since it's obvious Zoom would beat Galactus, would he iyo beat a Celestial or Eternity?

Originally posted by SasuOna
Its just as disingenuous to say that Odin can not be held to the standards of other characters because hes not human or "hes a skyfather". Whats the point in debating anything if we aren't at least honest and trying to use some logic when debating about these characters.

If Odin can see light years away does that mean that he can prevent himself from looking like a statue to the Flash?
If Odin's best physical durability feat un amped is taking a punch from Thanos does that mean he can weather a blitz of IMPS?

This thread uses circular logic because one side refuses or should I say prefers to not look at a perspective were a highly fictionalized universe uses logic that indeed applies to something other then said fictional universe.
Its annoying

Odin can freeze time if you want to do the powerset argument and alter his size. Being able to see across multiple dimensions and having the power to freeze time also leads us to believe his perceptions are more than enough for Zoom since WW has been able to defeat him before.

If you can't back up your claims with examples of Zoom doing what you describe then you are just making things up. 🙂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You didn't answer my question. How many punches does he throw before Odin is capable of reacting, taking for granted that they are as powerful as you say?

so, just because I'm a pedant:

it might be prudent for anyone appealing to "special relativity" to explain an IMP to realize they are actually arguing against it. the short reason being that something with infinite mass would actually cause the universe to collapse upon itself. I can expand on this, but to claim an IMP is "how it works in the real world" is nonsense.

odin rape stomps him

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Show me anything in the comics suggesting or hinting at Zoom doing an IMP, much less being able to hit with the force of "anything he wants", much less the force of thousands of galaxies.

Seriously, this shit needs to stop. Nothing about the Flashes/Speedforce/etc suggest anything close to them being able to hit with the force of an entire galaxy, much less thousands of them. No writer has ever tried to push that as their upper limit of power. It's an incredible baseless assumption and the definition of no limits fallacy and makes Zoom/Flash characters on a level there was never any intent in making them.

Without CIS Flash WILL go for the speedforce barrier, tap its energies and become untouchable.

Throw an omnidirectional blast big deal he jumps into the speedforce dimension to dodge it.

You wanna call bull on consecutive IMP well look at the actual explanation for it in comic. Yes it doesn't make sense but the way it's explained allows for consecutive IMP and Flashes endurance isn't an issue as he's backed by the near limitless energy of the speedforce. He can outrun time and even death itself. Zoom really should be no issue to him but you need a villain that can stand up to flash and time manips just happened to be writers choice despite the fact that it is shown that on several occasions those experienced with Speedforce capabilities can run through time at will.

Now stop dicking around saying that OMG Flash and Zoom can't be that broken an tossing out OMG ODIN IS SKYFATHER HOW DOES HE LOSE TO SPEEDSTERS. You have yet to put out one compelling argument that would put Odin above Flash.

Back to the subject of Zoom, without time manips and due to the fact that Zoom finger snapping is Superman punches I don't see how Odin can stop him short of an omnidirectional planet busting blast. However due to stips that also isn't viable so explain to me how exactly Odin is going to handle the equivilant to an all day pounding by superman (which is Zoom's damn fingersnaps let alone punches).

Originally posted by Uriel005
wrong everything is backable at least for the flash I'll dig for scans. But you're dead wrong about a CISless PIS less flash not being absurdly powerful. You still haven't proven anything I said wrong other than saying it's senseless extrapolation despite having taken everything from on panel statements about the speedforce and the IMP.

Without CIS Flash WILL go for the speedforce barrier, tap its energies and become untouchable.

Throw an omnidirectional blast big deal he jumps into the speedforce dimension to dodge it.

You wanna call bull on consecutive IMP well look at the actual explanation for it in comic. Yes it doesn't make sense but the way it's explained allows for consecutive IMP and Flashes endurance isn't an issue as he's backed by the near limitless energy of the speedforce. He can outrun time and even death itself. Zoom really should be no issue to him but you need a villain that can stand up to flash and time manips just happened to be writers choice despite the fact that it is shown that on several occasions those experienced with Speedforce capabilities can run through time at will.

Now stop dicking around saying that OMG Flash and Zoom can't be that broken an tossing out OMG ODIN IS SKYFATHER HOW DOES HE LOSE TO SPEEDSTERS. You have yet to put out one compelling argument that would put Odin above Flash.

Back to the subject of Zoom, without time manips and due to the fact that Zoom finger snapping is Superman punches I don't see how Odin can stop him short of an omnidirectional planet busting blast. However due to stips that also isn't viable so explain to me how exactly Odin is going to handle the equivilant to an all day pounding by superman (which is Zoom's damn fingersnaps let alone punches).

Which is why I think it tends to be crazy to think that way. It's all relative for instance Odin could just cut of Flash's connection to the Speedforce. Why not, he and people using only fraction of his power have been able to do similar things.

And I think Zoom's punches are overrated.

I can guarantee you make a thread about who hits harder and Superman will win that debate all day everyday.

Heck I'll use the Silver Surfer. The limits of his power are directly proportional to his thinking process. He can scan and classify every living thing on planet. He can think it ridiculous times. He once changed and altered every space fairing ship on a planet in the time it took him to blink so that they could have the power to escape a planet.

He can also use his abilities to see the past present and future at all times in a given place.

Therefore he uses his abilities of incredible thinking and perceptions of time to see everything that will happen and everything that has happened and uses to to make the area around him basically motionless and anybody in it he alters their DNA, he has done so before, so that anybody with superpowers are instantly depowered to and that any energy connections are totally canclled. Basically Surfer should be able to turn anyone into a human being and thus can beat anyone because he should be able to do it instantly anytime he wants.

Much like Zoom but instead of having to move he just simply has to think.

So why doesn't Silver Surfer get auto wins everytime and overblown like Flash cause,

Take any number of characters and you extrapolate to this level of craziness to make them sound unbeatable. You know the reasons their not is because its relative and the other characters are so broken as well that they can do these insane things as well and have shown abilities to counter them.

And you find this on the board all the time Silver Surfer actually was being talked and argued that he could do what i jsut said to any character. Why isn't it the case anymore cause people finally mellowed out and realized every character at that level can do those types of things or can resist those types of things.

The flash is the same way.

Uriel... PLEASE SHOW ME THE FLASH blizting in the manner you're talking about.. right from the start.. against an enemy he doesn't know.. on the level of Odin.. and KOing him before he can counter. You claim all this is backed up by comics.. yet it's actually the opposite.. NONE of that IS backed up by comics which is the exact point we are making.

We're just rehashing my other thread.

Zoom hits with Superman level punches, and is fast enough that few can react to him. He's the type of character who stomps the opponent or the opponent stomps him, there's no two ways about it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Uriel... PLEASE SHOW ME THE FLASH blizting in the manner you're talking about.. right from the start.. against an enemy he doesn't know.. on the level of Odin.. and KOing him before he can counter. You claim all this is backed up by comics.. yet it's actually the opposite.. NONE of that IS backed up by comics which is the exact point we are making.

Originally posted by h1a8
He doesn't need to show it for it is implied when D.C. explained IMP (which is based off special relativity). Zoom doesn't kill he just wants to instruct.

An attosecond to a second is the same as a second to 31.71 billion years.
How many punches can Zoom you throw in 31.71 billion years where each punch is as powerful as he wants it to be?

So, how many punchs can Zoom throw before Odin can react?

Originally posted by Philosophía
The better question is, how many of those attacks will be blocked by Thor with his faster than instant reflexes?

Nevertheless, to answer yours: fewer than the ones that Wonder Woman and Superman block with their faster than instant reflexes. More than or equal to the ones Orion, Darkseid, Lobo, Doomsday block with their faster than instant reflexes.

And ultimately, in the case of Zoom, there is apparently little difference between the former and the latter, i.e., none of them block many, if any. As that's what's been portrayed on-panel with this level of characters.

Originally posted by Uriel005
wrong everything is backable at least for the flash I'll dig for scans. But you're dead wrong about a CISless PIS less flash not being absurdly powerful. You still haven't proven anything I said wrong other than saying it's senseless extrapolation despite having taken everything from on panel statements about the speedforce and the IMP.

Without CIS Flash WILL go for the speedforce barrier, tap its energies and become untouchable.

Throw an omnidirectional blast big deal he jumps into the speedforce dimension to dodge it.

You wanna call bull on consecutive IMP well look at the actual explanation for it in comic. Yes it doesn't make sense but the way it's explained allows for consecutive IMP and Flashes endurance isn't an issue as he's backed by the near limitless energy of the speedforce. He can outrun time and even death itself. Zoom really should be no issue to him but you need a villain that can stand up to flash and time manips just happened to be writers choice despite the fact that it is shown that on several occasions those experienced with Speedforce capabilities can run through time at will.

Now stop dicking around saying that OMG Flash and Zoom can't be that broken an tossing out OMG ODIN IS SKYFATHER HOW DOES HE LOSE TO SPEEDSTERS. You have yet to put out one compelling argument that would put Odin above Flash.

Back to the subject of Zoom, without time manips and due to the fact that Zoom finger snapping is Superman punches I don't see how Odin can stop him short of an omnidirectional planet busting blast. However due to stips that also isn't viable so explain to me how exactly Odin is going to handle the equivilant to an all day pounding by superman (which is Zoom's damn fingersnaps let alone punches).

Never said Flash/Zoom weren't absurdly powerful. I am saying and calling BULLSHIT on either of them hitting with the force of galaxies. The rest of this post is basically a bunch of rehashed nonsense that's already been debated on.

Really there are only two questions that have yet to be answered:

How many punches can Zoom throw before Odin can react?

And how does Zoom fare against Celestials and beings such as Eternity?

And btw, CIS off =/= make shit up based on how we think powersets should work.

Say, what happens when a foe just levitates in the air against a non-flyer like Zoom?
Does Zoom just keep running around underneath yelling out: "FigggghhttMeeeeee..."? 😄

the other thing to remember as well--we've never even SEEN odin combat anyone like zoom or flash. so how the battle would go is obviously purely speculative. the one time thor (with the odin force) fought a speedster, (can't for the life of me recall his f'n name.....) thor matched him just fine. up UNTIL that time, no one had EVER seen the odinpower tackle a speedster AT ALL. with the odin force, thor was EASILY matching that god. is it zoom? or flash? no. but how many would have said he could battle h2h against a god of speed before the fight happened? odin uses new powers in situations all the time--as a skyfather, it's one of the benefits. could be match flash/zoom in speed? no, probably not. could be amp his own reaction times to heavily reduce the advantage they have? i'd say yes, that is certainly reasonable, since thor did it effortlessly already.

without him ever having been in a situation, it seems ridiculous to try and claim so definitively that he'd be ko'd or wouldn't be able to react in time to avoid a ko.

i ackowledge the irony--the odin side seems to be claiming quite definitively that ODIN would win. in my case is stems from a couple reasons, the chief ones being neither flash nor zoom have ever done anything remotely close to what is being ascribed to them in this thread, and the second, we've seen odinforce thor enhance his speed to match a superspeed threat already. we've also seen the damage odin can and has withstood. in the case of zoom? well, he's never even thrown an official imp, and his victories over even herald level characters are....? 😕

Originally posted by roughrider
Say, what happens when a foe just levitates in the air against a non-flyer like Zoom?
Does Zoom just keep running around underneath yelling out: "FigggghhttMeeeeee..."? 😄

people are saying he wouldn't have time to levitate as he would already be ko'd before he can even THINK about activating a single power....

Originally posted by leonidas
the other thing to remember as well--we've never even SEEN odin combat anyone like zoom or flash. so how the battle would go is obviously purely speculative. the one time thor (with the odin force) fought a speedster, (can't for the life of me recall his f'n name.....) thor matched him just fine. up UNTIL that time, no one had EVER seen the odinpower tackle a speedster AT ALL. with the odin force, thor was EASILY matching that god. is it zoom? or flash? no. but how many would have said he could battle h2h against a god of speed before the fight happened? odin uses new powers in situations all the time--as a skyfather, it's one of the benefits. could be match flash/zoom in speed? no, probably not. could be amp his own reaction times to heavily reduce the advantage they have? i'd say yes, that is certainly reasonable, since thor did it effortlessly already.

without him ever having been in a situation, it seems ridiculous to try and claim so definitively that he'd be ko'd or wouldn't be able to react in time to avoid a ko.

i ackowledge the irony--the odin side seems to be claiming quite definitively that ODIN would win. in my case is stems from a couple reasons, the chief ones being neither flash nor zoom have ever done anything remotely close to what is being ascribed to them in this thread, and the second, we've seen odinforce thor enhance his speed to match a superspeed threat already. we've also seen the damage odin can and has withstood. in the case of zoom? well, he's never even thrown an official imp, and his victories over even herald level characters are....? 😕

Other things I would say should be included is that all Asgardians seemingly get their power from in part thanks to the Odinforce and there is an Asgardian Speedster.

Obviously not in the same vein as flash or Zoom but something that shows the Odinforce is capable of giving high levels of superspeed.

Also Odin's perceptions are quite different then even a high heralds in what he can see and perceive.

I will admit its not the most definitive but its not in the same category as saying he is a Skyfather he wins.

Didn't the mods already rule that Flash and Zoom's appearances don't count on forum, and that the speedsters are skyfather level?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Never said Flash/Zoom weren't absurdly powerful. I am saying and calling BULLSHIT on either of them hitting with the force of galaxies. The rest of this post is basically a bunch of rehashed nonsense that's already been debated on.

Really there are only two questions that have yet to be answered:

How many punches can Zoom throw before Odin can react?

And how does Zoom fare against Celestials and beings such as Eternity?

And btw, CIS off =/= make shit up based on how we think powersets should work.

In a CISless situation where Flash is going for the kill like any character he WOULD start with his most powerful capabilities. The Number 1 Flash ability in terms of potency is the speed force barrier break. Number 2 probably I'd say speed steal but I don't know how well it would work on Odin so I'll ignore it. 3 would be to pile on as many IMP as he can and when you break the absolute limit of speed on the universe that number can get very very high.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Show Zoom performing multiple imps.

Isn't that what he did against Wonder Woman, when he kept knocking her between continents?

I don't understand how Zoom can land a punch against a brick without shattering his hand, since he's not protected by the speed force and for all intents and purposes is moving as fast as a human, but with the world slowed down around him.