Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, he does make some good points at a lot of things I will admit that, but this is not one of them. He believes getting the last word in even after his points are defeated makes him right.
One must love the irony of a guy naming himself "Sidious 66" and being known for arguing Sidious related issues exclusively, thinking he's more objective in Sidious related issues than myself. One must also love the irony of the fact, that he claims to have "defeated my points" when all he has brought to the table so far can be summed up by:
a) "I think Sidious wins."
b) "It's obvious that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku."
He does actually think that this resembles an argument, because stating his opinion without proof, evidence or anything else bolstering his opinion automatically makes him right. Yet it's me who is the arrogant guy here.
He believes he is the very best at everything: at logic, at comprehending non-fiction, at science, at sarcasm, and the list goes on. Come to find out just recently, he is an expert at martial arts (I literally lol'd at that one), and knows more about lightsaber dueling than a jedi master. So I'll let him look up to himself, but in the mean time I'll just ignore him. I mean it's waste of time to argue with someone who is never wrong, right?
I find it rather humorous that a guy who thinks that ignoring me is the best way to deal with me, tries to ridicule me in public. Who is craving for attention here?
Let's check: Being somebody who named himself after his favorite character, it's simple loltastic to assume to be more objective regarding said character than some other random poster. Reason? Here.
Even if we would ignore that for a few moments, we have a known fanboy incabable of presenting a coherent argument on the one side, and myself, who has been noted to be among the most knowledgeable, intelligent and best debaters on this forum, even by people clearly not being my fans (e.g. Lightsnake and Gideon). Yeah. Of course I think I'm better than he is. Who won't?
To me it's quite obvious that Sidious is much more powerful than Dooku when comparing his force contest with Yoda to Dooku's force contest with Yoda.
To the educated folks, who try to analyse a situation, rather than interpreting it in favor for their favorite character, this is far less obvious, for multiple reasons.
1) Dooku was never utilizing two-handed lightning against Yoda, which alone would mean that, even if he should have been as powerful as Sidious (which I don't assume, just to clarify that), he would just have channeled half at much force energy at the Jedi than Sidious in the RotS situations.
2) Dooku was facing Yoda at a far greater range than Sidious did in the RotS situations, probably weakening the power of the lightning (at least the telekinetic power apparently associated with the ability) and giving Yoda more time to react on it (e.g. focus his defensive).
3) Yoda had preperation time in all situation against Dooku, where he didn't have much of that in the situation in which Sidious attacked him with that force power. As we all know, prep time has a huge impact on the outcome of such contest.
Because of those reasons (even ignoring the relations between characters here), its outright unreasonable to even try and compare this situations like Sidious 66 did. It's comparing apples to oranges. Especially when one does discard all evidence for Dooku's command over the force, with the simple line of thought, that he has to be far weaker than Sidious, because he is afraid of his master. That's not just intellectually dishonest, it's plain and simple stupid and / or fanboyish.
The ROTS junior novel explains how Yoda admits to never facing a dark sider as powerful as Sidious, and how much of a struggle it was for Yoda to contain Sidious' lightning. To me when a person as cocky and as arrogant as Dooku fears someone to that extreme, there is a reason. It's one thing to be cautious and hesitant to challenge someone you might think has a chance of defeating and killing you, and another to being completely terrified of someone to the point of shitting your pants just from a conversation over a hologram.
What Sidious 66 doesn't get is, that the supposed gap of power between Sidious and Dooku has never been thematized in a single source. We're just left with Dooku fearing his master, with the "reasons" for this - fear is unreasonable per definition - are entirely unknown. Yet, for obvious reasons, Sidious 66 just assumes that this is because a huge gap in terms of ability, which totally contradicts Dookus own force feats in a variety of sources and the idea that a man that has been called Dooku's equal (at best) did defeat Sidious. All of that can apparently be ignored because "Dooku feared Sidious". A thoroughly examination of the source material is not required if the answer is that easy, right? 🙄
And regarding our other victim of confirmation bias:
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
Someone linked a ForceCast commentary in which Dave Filoni, supervising director of TCW, said that Dooku needed an apprentice because "he's not ready to take on Sidious alone." This, coupled with George Lucas's words in the Rolling Stone magazine in which he lumps Vader in with Dooku and Maul beneath the Emperor, makes for a compelling case that Dooku isn't as powerful as Palpatine.
Again, the context is escaping our dear Gideon random newbie.
An objective analysis of Filoni's quote doesn't disprove the idea that Dooku is capable of taking Sidious alone. He is not ready to do so. A fact that might be attributed to his fear that has been thematized in this very thread multiple times by now. The same Dooku, who eagerly seeks to confront his former master Yoda, despite the fact that the Jedi is clearly (at least) equal to his new master, shows reluctancy to confront Sidious. Because he is less powerful? That doesn't stop him from trying to deal with Yoda on his own. So what?
And one must love the attempt to straw man the argument once again. Nobody did ever state or assume that Dooku is as powerful as Sidious in the ways of the force. The question is, if the Count is powerful enough to defeat Sidious should he try to do so. And now let's check: Maul was about to kill Sidious in a surge of rage, while being tired, hungry and badly injured. Yet, apparently, the Count has a greater command of the force and a greater lightsaber skill than Sidious former apprentice. And Vader? Apparently certain people do ignore that, despite of a known weakness against force lightning, Vader managed to tank Sidious force attacks long enough to throw his master into the reactor core of the second Death Star. Compared to Vader, Dooku is maybe the greater force user (given the loss of Anakin's limp), probably the more competent duellist, doesn't have a weakness against force lightning and has demonstrated the ability to defend himself against said attack.
A further analysis, taking all feats of Dooku and the accolades to his power into consideration, provides even more evidence to the idea that he might be able to take out his master in a straight out fight. First: Mace Windu did the job, despite the fact that Yoda constantly puts him below Dooku in terms of force mastery and calls him perhabs Dooku's equal on even ground. Dooku's ability to encorporate force attacks in his dueling is pretty much unparalled. He has been shown to deal with multiple attackers (among them Jedi Masters Tholme and Bulq) with his superior force abilities.
Yet, we shall write all of that off, because of the ad-lib comments of Filoni and Lucas, that don't even explicitly state (actually they don't even imply it) that Dooku is inable to overcome Sidious in the presumed kind of fight? And, of course, Dooku's fear? I'm afraid. That doesn't make sense.
Also, if Dooku's fear of Sidious is irrational, is one's fear of Mr. Mark A. Ragnos equally irrational? Food for thawt.
If Gideon the new guy is asking if Kressh's assumption that Ragnos ghost might simply annihilate Sadow is unreasonable, than the answer is yes. The fear that kept others from attempting to challenge Ragnos for the Mantle of the Dark Lord was also unreasonable - yet not necessarily unjustified. We don't know, for example, what would have happened, if Sadow or Kressh would ever have tried to defeat Ragnos. Yet, we do know what happened to those who did question his rule during his reign that did last more than a century. They died, either killed by Ragnos personally, being assassinated or falling victim to conflicts that Ragnos did orchestrate.
Yet, at least Sadow has watched the fight between Ragnos and Simus and was therefore capable of an accessment regarding Ragnos skill in direct combat. When has Dooku witnessed the combat abilities of Darth Sidious? If he had, he would have come to the conclusion that Sidious - as we all know - isn't ahead of Yoda in the lightsaber department. So why would he have feared Sidious skill in this case, if he didn't fear that of Yoda?
Nice red herring, though.