Originally posted by Nephthys
Casually exploding trees which the novelisation point out as being as hard as Durasteel (10,000 x harder than steel if Wookiepedia is to be believed) and matching Galen Super Sayian Marek with the Force. And the second game has him replicate Sidious' Senate pod stunt with things about 30 times the size and weight.
Err...
Do I have to lecture people about the art of hyperbole again? How likely is the existance of wood that matches the hardness of Durasteel? I think that is a pretty obvious example of a hyperbole saying that this wood was really damn hard. That aside, crushing durasteel is not exactly a unique feat, considering the fact that it's one of the most common materials in the SW universe.
And for the TK part:
Assuming the pylons he lifts are made of rock (density 2,800 kg/m³) with roughly 1.5 m³ (12 m³ for 8) for the smaller pylons and 3 m³ for the bigger ones (24 m³ total), Dooku easily lifted about 100 tons of rock and demanded the same from Opress as some basic training. In this light, most telekinetic feats presented in the source material are rather laughable, even if they seem impressive initially.
For the use of force powers over greater distances: If Freedon Nadd's "powerless" spirit is capable of flooring Vodo on the other side of the Galaxy, I don't see what should hinder any powerful force user from using force attacks on a victim lightyears away, as long as there is some form of connection between the force user and the desired target of the force attack.
Originally posted by Galan007
iirc, during Bounty Hunter Wars Vader began force choking Xizor from halfway across the galaxy (at the time, he was near Coruscant and Xizor was on Tatooine.)
Seems a bit over the top to me.. I wonder why Vader didn't just Force choke the rebels on Hoth with that kind of power??
Originally posted by Borbarad
as long as there is some form of connection between the force user and the desired target of the force attack.
What kind of connection?
Originally posted by NephthysWhen did he knock yoda around?As seen in the senate rotunda sidous was locked in a force battle wich all of a sudden yoda overpowered causesing them both to be sent flying.Yoda would have one if not for the momentumm of his own blast.
Sidious' Force Lightning is far beyond anything Dooku has ever accomplished with it. Not only was he able to surprise, overpower and knock Yoda around with it* (a feat Dooku most certianly did not replicate) but he casually disintergrated a Sith Worm in it in Sithisis. Dooku's lightning made Opress kinda grunt and stumble around a bit. Sidious' would turn him into a charred husk.And Dooku has never been able to blitz 3 Jedi masters in a few seconds either.
*Was he surprised by the sheer power of it? He can't of been just plain surprised by it because Sidious telegraphs the attack like a mother****er. He does look surprised though.
Originally posted by Borbarad😮 😗 Oh,well I guess Im a fanboy,But if you can come up with someone who can defeat him besides freddon I will then listen to you about fanboys...
One must love the irony of a guy naming himself "Sidious 66" and being known for arguing Sidious related issues exclusively, thinking he's more objective in Sidious related issues than myself. One must also love the irony of the fact, that he claims to have "defeated my points" when all he has brought to the table so far can be summed up by:a) "I think Sidious wins."
b) "It's obvious that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku."He does actually think that this resembles an argument, because stating his opinion without proof, evidence or anything else bolstering his opinion automatically makes him right. Yet it's me who is the arrogant guy here.
I find it rather humorous that a guy who thinks that ignoring me is the best way to deal with me, tries to ridicule me in public. Who is craving for attention here?
Let's check: Being somebody who named himself after his favorite character, it's simple loltastic to assume to be more objective regarding said character than some other random poster. Reason? Here.
Even if we would ignore that for a few moments, we have a known fanboy incabable of presenting a coherent argument on the one side, and myself, who has been noted to be among the most knowledgeable, intelligent and best debaters on this forum, even by people clearly not being my fans (e.g. Lightsnake and Gideon). Yeah. Of course I think I'm better than he is. Who won't?
To the educated folks, who try to analyse a situation, rather than interpreting it in favor for their favorite character, this is far less obvious, for multiple reasons.
1) Dooku was never utilizing two-handed lightning against Yoda, which alone would mean that, even if he should have been as powerful as Sidious (which I don't assume, just to clarify that), he would just have channeled half at much force energy at the Jedi than Sidious in the RotS situations.
2) Dooku was facing Yoda at a far greater range than Sidious did in the RotS situations, probably weakening the power of the lightning (at least the telekinetic power apparently associated with the ability) and giving Yoda more time to react on it (e.g. focus his defensive).
3) Yoda had preperation time in all situation against Dooku, where he didn't have much of that in the situation in which Sidious attacked him with that force power. As we all know, prep time has a huge impact on the outcome of such contest.
Because of those reasons (even ignoring the relations between characters here), its outright unreasonable to even try and compare this situations like Sidious 66 did. It's comparing apples to oranges. Especially when one does discard all evidence for Dooku's command over the force, with the simple line of thought, that he has to be far weaker than Sidious, because he is afraid of his master. That's not just intellectually dishonest, it's plain and simple stupid and / or fanboyish.
What Sidious 66 doesn't get is, that the supposed gap of power between Sidious and Dooku has never been thematized in a single source. We're just left with Dooku fearing his master, with the "reasons" for this - fear is unreasonable per definition - are entirely unknown. Yet, for obvious reasons, Sidious 66 just assumes that this is because a huge gap in terms of ability, which totally contradicts Dookus own force feats in a variety of sources and the idea that a man that has been called Dooku's equal (at best) did defeat Sidious. All of that can apparently be ignored because "Dooku feared Sidious". A thoroughly examination of the source material is not required if the answer is that easy, right? 🙄
And regarding our other victim of confirmation bias:
Again, the context is escaping our dear
Gideonrandom newbie.An objective analysis of Filoni's quote doesn't disprove the idea that Dooku is capable of taking Sidious alone. He is not ready to do so. A fact that might be attributed to his fear that has been thematized in this very thread multiple times by now. The same Dooku, who eagerly seeks to confront his former master Yoda, despite the fact that the Jedi is clearly (at least) equal to his new master, shows reluctancy to confront Sidious. Because he is less powerful? That doesn't stop him from trying to deal with Yoda on his own. So what?
And one must love the attempt to straw man the argument once again. Nobody did ever state or assume that Dooku is as powerful as Sidious in the ways of the force. The question is, if the Count is powerful enough to defeat Sidious should he try to do so. And now let's check: Maul was about to kill Sidious in a surge of rage, while being tired, hungry and badly injured. Yet, apparently, the Count has a greater command of the force and a greater lightsaber skill than Sidious former apprentice. And Vader? Apparently certain people do ignore that, despite of a known weakness against force lightning, Vader managed to tank Sidious force attacks long enough to throw his master into the reactor core of the second Death Star. Compared to Vader, Dooku is maybe the greater force user (given the loss of Anakin's limp), probably the more competent duellist, doesn't have a weakness against force lightning and has demonstrated the ability to defend himself against said attack.
A further analysis, taking all feats of Dooku and the accolades to his power into consideration, provides even more evidence to the idea that he might be able to take out his master in a straight out fight. First: Mace Windu did the job, despite the fact that Yoda constantly puts him below Dooku in terms of force mastery and calls him perhabs Dooku's equal on even ground. Dooku's ability to encorporate force attacks in his dueling is pretty much unparalled. He has been shown to deal with multiple attackers (among them Jedi Masters Tholme and Bulq) with his superior force abilities.
Yet, we shall write all of that off, because of the ad-lib comments of Filoni and Lucas, that don't even explicitly state (actually they don't even imply it) that Dooku is inable to overcome Sidious in the presumed kind of fight? And, of course, Dooku's fear? I'm afraid. That doesn't make sense.
If
Gideonthe new guy is asking if Kressh's assumption that Ragnos ghost might simply annihilate Sadow is unreasonable, than the answer is yes. The fear that kept others from attempting to challenge Ragnos for the Mantle of the Dark Lord was also unreasonable - yet not necessarily unjustified. We don't know, for example, what would have happened, if Sadow or Kressh would ever have tried to defeat Ragnos. Yet, we do know what happened to those who did question his rule during his reign that did last more than a century. They died, either killed by Ragnos personally, being assassinated or falling victim to conflicts that Ragnos did orchestrate.Yet, at least Sadow has watched the fight between Ragnos and Simus and was therefore capable of an accessment regarding Ragnos skill in direct combat. When has Dooku witnessed the combat abilities of Darth Sidious? If he had, he would have come to the conclusion that Sidious - as we all know - isn't ahead of Yoda in the lightsaber department. So why would he have feared Sidious skill in this case, if he didn't fear that of Yoda?
Nice red herring, though.
Originally posted by Naga Sado
When did he knock yoda around?As seen in the senate rotunda sidous was locked in a force battle wich all of a sudden yoda overpowered causesing them both to be sent flying.Yoda would have one if not for the momentumm of his own blast.
I think he's referring to when Sidious blasted Yoda w/ FL nearly knocking him out before the lightsaber portion of their duel. Other than that... 👆
Originally posted by Naga Sado
When did he knock yoda around?As seen in the senate rotunda sidous was locked in a force battle wich all of a sudden yoda overpowered causesing them both to be sent flying.Yoda would have one if not for the momentumm of his own blast.
Its like the first thing that happens in the fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seems a bit over the top to me.. I wonder why Vader didn't just Force choke the rebels on Hoth with that kind of power??
Simple answer- you can't just force-choak someone at a distance blindly, you need to 'lock on' to them mentally. Something like a hologram communication gives him enough information to do just that.
But short of each rebel answering his call, that won't fly.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Err...
Do I have to lecture people about the art of hyperbole again? How likely is the existance of wood that matches the hardness of Durasteel? I think that is a pretty obvious example of a hyperbole saying that this wood was really damn hard. That aside, crushing durasteel is not exactly a unique feat, considering the fact that it's one of the most common materials in the SW universe.And for the TK part:
Assuming the pylons he lifts are made of rock (density 2,800 kg/m³) with roughly 1.5 m³ (12 m³ for 8) for the smaller pylons and 3 m³ for the bigger ones (24 m³ total), Dooku easily lifted about 100 tons of rock and demanded the same from Opress as some basic training. In this light, most telekinetic feats presented in the source material are rather laughable, even if they seem impressive initially.
I'm fairly certain that its phrased in a way that eliminates hyperbole. I think its a direct comparison, I seem to remember it follows it up with something about the wood not being as brittle as metal. But I don't have the book on hand so I'm not going to push the point any further.
Your point about durasteel being common reminds me that Marek has also bent and broken it. I believe those chicken walkers he crushes into cubes are re-enforced with it and I know that the novel points out that when he is manipulating the Star Destroyer its actually buckling under his Force grip.
5.40 onwards. That platform is definately heavier than those pillars. On top of that we have the feats ares brought to the table, shaking the entire jedi temple (all 1 kilometer by 500 meters of it, dunno how impressive that is) as well as apparently disintergrating someone. Both more impressive than Count 'chuck a pipe at Yoda' Dooku's feats. Even beyond that, matching Galen Marek in the Force is waaay more impressive than any of Dooku's feats. The man brought down a freakin' skyhook (something that reaches into orbit) with TK.
Originally posted by truejedi
um. grand admiral thrawn WAS the greatest threat ever faced by the republic. if he hadn't gotten assassinated, there wouldn't have BEEN a republic much longer.
Why? He lost the battle of Bilbringi despite it being his "master stroke" and he just lost his source of troops...
Originally posted by ares834Wookiee's summary of the battle states that the New Republic fleet was lured in to a trap, but the Imperial defensive line was breached by the late-arriving Smuggler's Alliance. Thrawn reminded a dismayed Pellaeon that the battle was far from over, but before he could execute his Thrawn-style awesomeness, Rukh executed him, which made Gilad retreat.
My bad I meant to say he was losing the battle.
I gotta read those books again. Forgot how fun they were.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wookiee's summary of the battle states that the New Republic fleet was lured in to a trap, but the Imperial defensive line was breached by the late-arriving Smuggler's Alliance. Thrawn reminded a dismayed Pellaeon that the battle was far from over, but before he could execute his Thrawn-style awesomeness, Rukh executed him, which made Gilad retreat.I gotta read those books again. Forgot how fun they were.
qft
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wookiee's summary of the battle states that the New Republic fleet was lured in to a trap, but the Imperial defensive line was breached by the late-arriving Smuggler's Alliance. Thrawn reminded a dismayed Pellaeon that the battle was far from over, but before he could execute his Thrawn-style awesomeness, Rukh executed him, which made Gilad retreat.I gotta read those books again. Forgot how fun they were.
Sure. As I said he was losing. Thrawn's plan relied on the ships not getting through his defesive line and protecting the shipyards. Could he have won? Sure. But at the time he was losing the battle badly enough that the highly capable Pellaeon himself decided to retreat immediatly following Thrawn's death.
Originally posted by ares834I haven't read the book in five years, but going by Wookiee's words alone, Thrawn wasn't losing. His trap for the Republic fleet was going well. His defensive line of Golans was breached by the Smugglers, but that's not losing a battle, that's the battle taking an unexpected turn. Had Thrawn not been killed by Rukh, who knows how he would have handled the situation? I doubt he would have pulled a Pellaeon and ran (because Pellaeon knew that only Thrawn could turn the situation around).
Sure. As I said he was losing. Thrawn's plan relied on the ships not getting through his defesive line and protecting the shipyards. Could he have won? Sure. But at the time he was losing the battle badly enough that the highly capable Pellaeon himself decided to retreat immediatly following Thrawn's death.
There's a fine, fine line between the battle taking a surprising turn, and losing.