Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by The Scenario
Oh, okay, so it's fine to say that Defiance retconned Kain's durability back to normal levels, then. Raziel was still destined to kill Kain in Soul Reaver 2, though, and in Defiance he succeeded. It is shown that Kain simply contacting Raziel is enough to start the siphon, we see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=3m5s

Same thing as here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zjmJLQohc#t=5m30s

You can see Kain being healed just by contact with Raziel, so what's the problem?

'k, we can do that: [B]TO MYTHBUSTERS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A5W20ohJzw (If you want to watch the whole thing, watch this. Otherwise, the second link skips right to the data.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A5W20ohJzw#t=3m

So, roughly 9 or 10 pounds of force (10 * 4.448222 = 44.48222 newtons) on a spike with a total surface area of roughly .63 m^2. (pi*2*10~63cm^2~.63m^2) So about 71 pascals or .1 PSI to pierce a human.

For completeness I'll do Raziel and Bowser, too. If I'm going to do math, might as well go all the way. And I am using a bit of a different formula than you or BloodRain, so it'll be nice to see how it matches up.

Raziel first, his claws have a total surface area of .33 m^2 for one, .66 m^2 for both, and I think I'll just leave off the thumb. (pi*2cm*7cm~32.9cm~.33m^2)

Looking over some threads, Raziel's at 1.868 MN or 1868000 Newtons from the obelisk tip. 1868000/.66m^2~2830303 pascals or 410 PSI over Raziel's 2 claws.

That puts Raziel at 4100x the pressure needed to pierce a human.

Now, Bowser. pi*2cm*6cm~37cm^2~.37m^2

.37m^2 for one claw, .74m^2 for two, 1.11m^2 for three, again leaving off the thumb. His newtons appear to be at 64374736.4, so 64374736.4/1.11m^2~57995258 pascals or 8411 PSI over Bowser's 3 claws.

So Bowser's pressure is roughly 84115x (eighty-four thousand times) greater than the pressure required to pierce a human and 20x greater than Raziel's pressure.

The tiger has a bite force of 1000 pounds, roughly 4400 newtons, and the surface area of it's teeth comes to .5 m^2. So about 8800 pascals, or 1.2 PSI. That's about 12x human durability. The lioness comes to roughly 7x human durability. I don't really need to show what they do to flesh, do I? The previous video showed them tearing it apart, and it's only around 7x flesh limit.

Bowser is at 20x.

No, I just wanted to make sure we were using human scaling to figure bones. If you watch the video you can see how the lions ate it. You know, tearing through the skin to get at the juicy bits inside. Again, lions are 7x and Bowser is 20x. Bowser is hurting Kain, and badly.

How do you know it's not heavier material? Bowser's stone isn't supported on mud at all, dunno why you're saying it is. Bowser's shattering several meters of stone, especially in the second one where it's supported by more stone. But fine, you want something that isn't supported like that, try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mr_VfbURU

Cool vids, by the way, and thanks for the evidence.

That's because it was a question. How is the pressure at the core of the earth comparable to a claw? How are they similar?

The durability was pig flesh, which is basically identical to human flesh, and 40 millimeters is pretty deep into muscle. Since Bowser's already getting in several inches thanks to being 20x Kain's durability, this claim doesn't do much any more.

The pikachu was too make sure you knew what I was referencing, because I didn't think just talking about extrapolations and nukes would be enough to indicate the comics thread. As for Samus, she certainly has broken a lot of stone. Now that I think about it, there hasn't been a Kain vs. Samus yet, has there? [/B]

Based on what? theres no scene in Defiance that is a retcon from the previous games, infact theres no scene from the previous games in Defiance iirc.

The problem is the first one is the reaver absorbing Raziel and the second one is Kain absorbing the balance guardian imbued wraith blade through Raziels will, Kain doesnt actually absorb anything until Raziel says that the Scion of balance shall be healed.

Youve found some evidence that shows things penetrating flesh but until we know the actual max force flesh itself can take without being penetrated this is fairly useless to use as your argument which basically consists of claiming that "as long as its 10x or 20x Kains pierced to the same degree". I am pretty certain that your not going to find evidence that suggests a spike pushed in like that is doing only 10-20x the force flesh can take.

Also, you will have to compare what a tigers tooth does per its surface area so its force /area of tooth vs the exact same area toughness for humans, so if your saying a humans least required pressure is about 71 pascals, in the lion example you have over 8000 pascals, thats about 120x+ more force.

Tearing skin, so far the calcs say Bowser has 10x the force required to break the skins layers, then hes hitting something far stronger than skin.

Since when does earth/soil equel heavier than actual solid blocks of stone? You would need equelly solid blocks to say they were held up and in this new piece of evidence its vague of what those things are, they may be hollow due to looking like sculptures for example.

Because their both measured in pressure scale, bar or pascals. The pressure in Raziels claw tip, is equel to 3x the earths cores pressure in bar.

But we dont have a solid number for the max strength of human or pig flesh yet do we? theres nothing in your myth busters that said this was max, only that what they did was enough. we cant get a max for this, because were using what was not able to harm Kain as his durability feat, you need something that cant harm a human likewise.

Not sure but if Samus can go sonic speeds or hyper speeds or more then I see her speed being a major factor that Kain may not be able to easily bypass.

not really relevent though is it the comics forum, they dont use any calcs at all was really their only argument. Posting a picture of a bemused pikachu no more disproves the comparison of pressures than does posting a man drilling into a hunk of meat prove pressures human or pig flesh can take. Also, I thank you sincerely for actually giving me something to do at this hour while waiting for Skyrim.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Based on what? theres no scene in Defiance that is a retcon from the previous games, infact theres no scene from the previous games in Defiance iirc.

In the same way that Soul Reaver 2 didn't retcon the fight before Kain broke the Reaver over Raziel's head. Raziel hurt him then, the only thing Soul Reaver 2 retconned was the Time Streamer fight. So Defiance re-retconned his durability?

The problem is the first one is the reaver absorbing Raziel and the second one is Kain absorbing the balance guardian imbued wraith blade through Raziels will, Kain doesnt actually absorb anything until Raziel says that the Scion of balance shall be healed.

They both show the same effect, though, and Kain actively recovers while touching Raziel in the first one. Kain still had Raziel's soul going through him in both cases.

Youve found some evidence that shows things penetrating flesh but until we know the actual max force flesh itself can take without being penetrated this is fairly useless to use as your argument which basically consists of claiming that "as long as its 10x or 20x Kains pierced to the same degree". I am pretty certain that your not going to find evidence that suggests a spike pushed in like that is doing only 10-20x the force flesh can take.

Also, you will have to compare what a tigers tooth does per its surface area so its force /area of tooth vs the exact same area toughness for humans, so if your saying a humans least required pressure is about 71 pascals, in the lion example you have over 8000 pascals, thats about 120x+ more force.

Tearing skin, so far the calcs say Bowser has 10x the force required to break the skins layers, then hes hitting something far stronger than skin.

No, it's showing what is the minimum required to pierce flesh, so anything lower won't. Did you not see the video? It didn't pierce until roughly 8-9.5 pounds was reached, that's how we know what the resistance was. The max without piercing would likely be around 7 pounds with that spike.

Not sure what you're talking about with the Tiger, to be honest, since the PSI was only 12x higher than the spike. I mistyped, it appears 880 pascals comes out to 12x human durability.

And no, didn't you see that Bowser had 20x the force required to break the skin? And no, he's not hitting something stronger than skin if what you're using is just scaled up skin. It's stronger than human skin, sure, but it's still skin. And as demonstrated by the lions, it doesn't take much to pierce skin and muscle.

Since when does earth/soil equel heavier than actual solid blocks of stone? You would need equelly solid blocks to say they were held up and in this new piece of evidence its vague of what those things are, they may be hollow due to looking like sculptures for example.

Since it's not soil, for one. It appears to be much more mountainous, so perhaps rocks or something. Doesn't matter, though; even the second video had the blocks held up by something that was the same material as the blocks themselves. As for the statues, they're scaled down versions of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B9Rc8t-f8I&#t=2m30s

So completely solid, yet Bowser shatters them casually.

Because their both measured in pressure scale, bar or pascals. The pressure in Raziels claw tip, is equel to 3x the earths cores pressure in bar.

That tells me nothing. Earth's core is pressing from all direction and due mostly to the weight of the rocks above and gravity, I don't see how a claw compares.

But we dont have a solid number for the max strength of human or pig flesh yet do we? theres nothing in your myth busters that said this was max, only that what they did was enough. we cant get a max for this, because were using what was not able to harm Kain as his durability feat, you need something that cant harm a human likewise.

We do, see above about it not penetrating until 8-10 pounds, and they were using pig flesh specifically because it works exactly like human flesh. So the claw there reaching muscle would do the same to a human, and Bowser would go farther.

Not sure but if Samus can go sonic speeds or hyper speeds or more then I see her speed being a major factor that Kain may not be able to easily bypass.

I thought we were talking durability. Samus has supersonic reactions but only really moves that fast in Speed Booste, otherwise she's somewhere above peak human. Unless you're reading the Manga, in which case she's likely hypersonic.

not really relevent though is it the comics forum, they dont use any calcs at all was really their only argument. Posting a picture of a bemused pikachu no more disproves the comparison of pressures than does posting a man drilling into a hunk of meat prove pressures human or pig flesh can take. Also, I thank you sincerely for actually giving me something to do at this hour while waiting for Skyrim.

But I like the Pikachu. Ah, right, Skyrim was today. It's what, 5:30am for you now?

Originally posted by The Scenario
In the same way that Soul Reaver 2 didn't retcon the fight before Kain broke the Reaver over Raziel's head. Raziel hurt him then, the only thing Soul Reaver 2 retconned was the Time Streamer fight. So Defiance re-retconned his durability?

They both show the same effect, though, and Kain actively recovers while touching Raziel in the first one. Kain still had Raziel's soul going through him in both cases.

No, it's showing what is the minimum required to pierce flesh, so anything lower won't. Did you not see the video? It didn't pierce until roughly 8-9.5 pounds was reached, that's how we know what the resistance was. The max without piercing would likely be around 7 pounds with that spike.

Not sure what you're talking about with the Tiger, to be honest, since the PSI was only 12x higher than the spike. I mistyped, it appears 880 pascals comes out to 12x human durability.

And no, didn't you see that Bowser had 20x the force required to break the skin? And no, he's not hitting something stronger than skin if what you're using is just scaled up skin. It's stronger than human skin, sure, but it's still skin. And as demonstrated by the lions, it doesn't take much to pierce skin [b]and muscle.

Since it's not soil, for one. It appears to be much more mountainous, so perhaps rocks or something. Doesn't matter, though; even the second video had the blocks held up by something that was the same material as the blocks themselves. As for the statues, they're scaled down versions of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B9Rc8t-f8I&#t=2m30s

So completely solid, yet Bowser shatters them casually.

That tells me nothing. Earth's core is pressing from all direction and due mostly to the weight of the rocks above and gravity, I don't see how a claw compares.

We do, see above about it not penetrating until 8-10 pounds, and they were using pig flesh specifically because it works exactly like human flesh. So the claw there reaching muscle would do the same to a human, and Bowser would go farther.

I thought we were talking durability. Samus has supersonic reactions but only really moves that fast in Speed Booste, otherwise she's somewhere above peak human. Unless you're reading the Manga, in which case she's likely hypersonic.

But I like the Pikachu. Ah, right, Skyrim was today. It's what, 5:30am for you now? [/B]

Again what scene re-retconned his durability? And why would they put the SR2 intro (or a piece of it) in defiance if it was retconned? Your not making sense to me here, its clear your just trying to claim just because in some terms Kain was hurt by Raziel in defiance this immediatly counts as a retcon.

Well their not the same effect, devs actually say Kain absorbed the reaver in the last one, and that it healed him while if you notice, Raziels still got the wraith blade, thats not attuned to all the balance guardians on his arm. Your making things up just because you think Kain not wincing in agony constantly the whole scene means he was somehow healed by an event thats never done so, touching Raziel has nothing to do with healing. No, in the second case he has the actual wraith blade imbued with the balance guardians absorbed completly into him and you see healing on his chest, you dont see any effect on kain other than the energy of Raziels soul using him as a conduit as such, nothing more.

Quote me where it actually says that please, I watched the video and all they say is they need to know the "resistance" not the max resistance it can actually take without being damaged, you see their calculating something we didnt even bring in here, how Kains super durable flesh would actually capture and hold Bowsers claw through the suction of his skin and such.

pounds per square inch, the tip of a tigers tooth is not a square inch in size is it? no, its about .0 w/e meters. Probably near the same as Bowsers claw.

hes hitting skin which as weve calculatd before, he can break with 10x the force required max, but once you get through the 2mm of skin that will slow him down hes going to hit bone and muscle combined.

Those statues are interesting, you see Bowser struggles to push that statue along. Now ime not sure if its solid but it took an Amp from mario bros for him to push it, sort of ruining your earlier iron ball feat as well in the process because this statue cracks as it hits the ground. What looks to me like stone flags, the sort you may see on a castle floor repelled the force without harm that shattered the statue which bowser then jumped on.

Since when does weight of rocks and gravity make one instance difference to another? its those rocks and gravity that give the earths core its pressure I am sure, but it still all measured in the same pascal scale and Raziels is 3x superior, the fact its pushing from what your dubbing "all directions" is also meaningless, if anything Raziel being able to channel that in a single direction of his choosing makes him evne more impressive.

I honestly dont know where your getting "not penetrating", please quote me what he actually said what your using, I watched from where you timed it and I didnt hear him say it couldnt penetrate, infact from what he has shown it was digging in as soon as he started. 10 pounds got him through the whole hunk of meat, also 10 pounds travelling about what, 5-10 inches in a minute isnt much force, once you divide that over the area of the spike, I cant see you getting many pascals.

Kain cares not for durability of an opponent, the only question is if she can fire a weapon that holds more force in it than the core of our planet, or if its not a blade like Raziels and is an explosive, more force than the core of our star.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Again what scene re-retconned his durability? And why would they put the SR2 intro (or a piece of it) in defiance if it was retconned? Your not making sense to me here, its clear your just trying to claim just because in some terms Kain was hurt by Raziel in defiance this immediatly counts as a retcon.

That's what you said, isn't it? That Kain's general durability was retconned in Soul Reaver 2, despite Raziel injuring him in Soul Reaver? Defiance shows Raziel injuring Kain again, which is a direct contradiction of Soul Reaver.

Well their not the same effect, devs actually say Kain absorbed the reaver in the last one, and that it healed him while if you notice, Raziels still got the wraith blade, thats not attuned to all the balance guardians on his arm. Your making things up just because you think Kain not wincing in agony constantly the whole scene means he was somehow healed by an event thats never done so, touching Raziel has nothing to do with healing. No, in the second case he has the actual wraith blade imbued with the balance guardians absorbed completly into him and you see healing on his chest, you dont see any effect on kain other than the energy of Raziels soul using him as a conduit as such, nothing more.

And the energy of Raziel's soul healed him, because he immediately stopped being in pain the moment he started absorbing Raziel, and we have seen Raziel heal Kain after this. The balance guardians only purified him, but we saw healing in both events.

Quote me where it actually says that please, I watched the video and all they say is they need to know the "resistance" not the max resistance it can actually take without being damaged, you see their calculating something we didnt even bring in here, how Kains super durable flesh would actually capture and hold Bowsers claw through the suction of his skin and such.

They were looking for the resistance, and that resistance stopped at around 8 or 9 pounds. Do we really need to go into how a lower force didn't penetrate? The damage started at around 8, something lower wouldn't be doing damage, it's pretty simple.

pounds per square inch, the tip of a tigers tooth is not a square inch in size is it? no, its about .0 w/e meters. Probably near the same as Bowsers claw.

The total surface area came to about .6 or so meters squared, counting all the teeth, is that what you were asking?

hes hitting skin which as weve calculatd before, he can break with 10x the force required max, but once you get through the 2mm of skin that will slow him down hes going to hit bone and muscle combined.

Except that, as the Raptor hitting 40mm (basically the whole claw) showed, muscle does not significantly affect the sped and penetration once you're past the skin. Notably, Kain's bones didn't slow down a weakened Raziel, I see no reason they'd stop Bowser.

Those statues are interesting, you see Bowser struggles to push that statue along. Now ime not sure if its solid but it took an Amp from mario bros for him to push it, sort of ruining your earlier iron ball feat as well in the process because this statue cracks as it hits the ground. What looks to me like stone flags, the sort you may see on a castle floor repelled the force without harm that shattered the statue which bowser then jumped on.

He could actually move it fine normally (as in, base Bowser,) but his minions pushing it as well was more of a problem. Good for them, but not really undermining Bowser as much as you think. In any case, what are you talking about now? You're claiming that the statue was weak because the castle floor stopped it, despite that same statue having just smashed through a stone battlement, a metal floor, and then several more stone floors? Feat for Bowser's foundation, then, the castle's heavy.

Since when does weight of rocks and gravity make one instance difference to another? its those rocks and gravity that give the earths core its pressure I am sure, but it still all measured in the same pascal scale and Raziels is 3x superior, the fact its pushing from what your dubbing "all directions" is also meaningless, if anything Raziel being able to channel that in a single direction of his choosing makes him evne more impressive.

You're still telling me nothing, just because the numbers match it does not necessarily mean they're exactly alike. How would Kain survive at the center of the earth, really?

I honestly dont know where your getting "not penetrating", please quote me what he actually said what your using, I watched from where you timed it and I didnt hear him say it couldnt penetrate, infact from what he has shown it was digging in as soon as he started. 10 pounds got him through the whole hunk of meat, also 10 pounds travelling about what, 5-10 inches in a minute isnt much force, once you divide that over the area of the spike, I cant see you getting many pascals.

Most of this was already addressed above, and the pascals are 1 or 2 posts back.

Kain cares not for durability of an opponent, the only question is if she can fire a weapon that holds more force in it than the core of our planet, or if its not a blade like Raziels and is an explosive, more force than the core of our star.

Sure. Make the thread.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's what you said, isn't it? That Kain's general durability was retconned in Soul Reaver 2, despite Raziel injuring him in Soul Reaver? Defiance shows Raziel injuring Kain again, which is a direct contradiction of Soul Reaver.

And the energy of Raziel's soul healed him, because he immediately stopped being in pain the moment he started absorbing Raziel, and we have seen Raziel heal Kain after this. The balance guardians only purified him, but we saw healing in both events.

They were looking for the resistance, and that resistance stopped at around 8 or 9 pounds. Do we really need to go into how a lower force didn't penetrate? The damage started at around 8, something lower wouldn't be doing damage, it's pretty simple.

The total surface area came to about .6 or so meters squared, counting all the teeth, is that what you were asking?

Except that, as the Raptor hitting 40mm (basically the whole claw) showed, muscle does not significantly affect the sped and penetration once you're past the skin. Notably, Kain's bones didn't slow down a weakened Raziel, I see no reason they'd stop Bowser.

He could actually move it fine normally (as in, base Bowser,) but his minions pushing it as well was more of a problem. Good for them, but not really undermining Bowser as much as you think. In any case, what are you talking about now? You're claiming that the statue was weak because the castle floor stopped it, despite that same statue having just smashed through a stone battlement, a metal floor, and then several more stone floors? Feat for Bowser's foundation, then, the castle's heavy.

You're still telling me nothing, just because the numbers match it does not necessarily mean they're exactly alike. How would Kain survive at the center of the earth, really?

Most of this was already addressed above, and the pascals are 1 or 2 posts back.

Sure. Make the thread.

A two cutscenes of Kains durability were shown in SR 1, the one that showed Kain in the worst light was retconned in SR2 intro, therefore his durability was changed. No pevious event was changed in Defiance though, we simply have a special context event, e.g. A Raziel stronger than the one in SR 2 striking Kain with the wraith blade and weakening first.

Thats a terrible conclusion, he immediatly stopped being in pain when no one was pushing against him or striking him, kinda makes sense, theres no canon that shows us that having Raziel being absorbed into the reaver heals anyone. The balance guardian imbued weapon is the only blade to actually show healing, although i would like you to screen shot and circle the actual wound we see heal in the scene, then youve got more to go on than just assumptions on Kains behaviour...

What do you mean it "started" at around 8 pounds when the guy was slicing into it as soon as he put the spike to flesh? your not making sense here, thier talking about how even while cutting into something youll get resistance, something for some reason were not taking into account with Kain, apprently as long as you have at least enough force to break a few mm of skin your capable of destroying someone by your logic.

What do you mean "all" the teeth? a tiger only has some major canines that do the main impact work, they still have smaller teeth for grinding food, I find it hard to belive you found that added up the tigers teeth are equel to 930 square inches 😐

We dont have the figuires yet for A; what the raptor is digging into and B; how much force it is actually dealing, als how do you know its not slowing it down? Well obviously after being struck by the wratih blade with enough power to have him doubled over in pain and hold his chest you cant assume his chest area is at full strength.

It just sort of cracked as it hit the ground, hardly a solid rock because a solid rock couldnt have stopped without even damaging the floor and what feats of strength do bowsers minions have to make up for his lack of power here?

He could survive the pressure, as for the heat and such, maybe not but were talking about pressure. Also what do you mean "telling you nothing", if the pressure of a car hitting you is X pascals and the pressure of a baseball bat for some reason is the same, their doing the same amount of pressure and will feel the same, so Kain in a square mm of his body can take 3x what the earth can do, which is squash an enormous ball of metal, rock and god knows what else into a compact piece in its core.

My problem is with the fact your using whats essentially piercing a piece of meat and getting some suction resistance vs Kains complete rebound of Raziel, which makes no sense, you need to find the force that the skin could just "rebound", there was no point in that video that he simply could not progress into the meat, he went all the way, we know less than 10 pounds is enough but what isnt? its all relevent. Further, how are you getting surface areas of about 0.6 meters squared, or hundreds of squared inches for spikes? thats a ridiculous surface area, hell thats probably the SA of my chest and legs combined let alone a spike.

You make it, your the one thats interesteed and brought up Samus vs kain, although I wont promise but input, as Skyrim should arrive today.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A two cutscenes of Kains durability were shown in SR 1, the one that showed Kain in the worst light was retconned in SR2 intro, therefore his durability was changed. No pevious event was changed in Defiance though, we simply have a special context event, e.g. A Raziel stronger than the one in SR 2 striking Kain with the wraith blade and weakening first.

No, that's stupid. Of two showings in Soul Reaver, one was changed from a low showing to a higher showing in Soul Reaver 2. That doesn't retcon the earlier low showing, nor does it overrule a weakened Raziel harming Kain in the later game, Defiance. Which is, incidentally, another low showing. Kain being unharmed is the inconsistency one here.

Thats a terrible conclusion, he immediatly stopped being in pain when no one was pushing against him or striking him, kinda makes sense, theres no canon that shows us that having Raziel being absorbed into the reaver heals anyone. The balance guardian imbued weapon is the only blade to actually show healing, although i would like you to screen shot and circle the actual wound we see heal in the scene, then youve got more to go on than just assumptions on Kains behaviour...

Raziel was still pushing against him, though. He only stopped being in pain after the absorption started. And since we've seen the same effect heal Kain at the end of the game, it makes sense to have happened during that scene, as well. What do you mean by "the actual wound?" You mean this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PjlvkXu2WY#t=7m14s

? I've told you my laptop doesn't support screenshots before, in any case.

What do you mean it "started" at around 8 pounds when the guy was slicing into it as soon as he put the spike to flesh? your not making sense here, thier talking about how even while cutting into something youll get resistance, something for some reason were not taking into account with Kain, apprently as long as you have at least enough force to break a few mm of skin your capable of destroying someone by your logic.

I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying here. When Jamie pierced the flesh, the meter read 8-10 pounds. It means that he was exerting between 8 and 10 pounds of force when he pierced it. Meaning it took around 9 pounds of force to pierce flesh with that spike, 8 minimum.

What do you mean "all" the teeth? a tiger only has some major canines that do the main impact work, they still have smaller teeth for grinding food, I find it hard to belive you found that added up the tigers teeth are equel to 930 square inches 😐

Who knows; I don't.

We dont have the figuires yet for A; what the raptor is digging into and B; how much force it is actually dealing, als how do you know its not slowing it down? Well obviously after being struck by the wratih blade with enough power to have him doubled over in pain and hold his chest you cant assume his chest area is at full strength.

A. Stated to be pig flesh. See again: Mythbusters. B. Hardly matters, it got far deeper than a few millimeters past the skin. Wraith Blade didn't hit Kain's chest and he was healed in any case.

It just sort of cracked as it hit the ground, hardly a solid rock because a solid rock couldnt have stopped without even damaging the floor and what feats of strength do bowsers minions have to make up for his lack of power here?

It just sort of broke through 3 other floors and a metal covering that you're ignoring for some reason. This floor happened to be stronger, I don't see why you have such a problem. Bowser's minions are decently strong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcH4v1zY-nU#t=16s

A Goomba, Paratroopa, and Shy Guy push that huge metal cannon a rather large distance from Bowser's Castle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0n2nPSOeo#t=40s

Not shown, but the same 3 moved that safe from under a pile of gold. These guys are probably in the double digit ton range. 10 or 20, thereabouts. lol 10 tonner Goomba. But this is irrelevant to the original point, which is Bowser shattering statues by simply rolling into them. And how he can also do so while on fire.

He could survive the pressure, as for the heat and such, maybe not but were talking about pressure. Also what do you mean "telling you nothing", if the pressure of a car hitting you is X pascals and the pressure of a baseball bat for some reason is the same, their doing the same amount of pressure and will feel the same, so Kain in a square mm of his body can take 3x what the earth can do, which is squash an enormous ball of metal, rock and god knows what else into a compact piece in its core.

You're not explaining this very well, are you sure you understand it?

My problem is with the fact your using whats essentially piercing a piece of meat and getting some suction resistance vs Kains complete rebound of Raziel, which makes no sense, you need to find the force that the skin could just "rebound", there was no point in that video that he simply could not progress into the meat, he went all the way, we know less than 10 pounds is enough but what isnt? its all relevent. Further, how are you getting surface areas of about 0.6 meters squared, or hundreds of squared inches for spikes? thats a ridiculous surface area, hell thats probably the SA of my chest and legs combined let alone a spike.

Are you under the impression that what the Mythbusters were testing was how much suction the meat produced when the spike was removed? Because there is really no other way for what you just said to make sense otherwise. And no, I don't need to find out how much the skin can "rebound" because the minimum was 8. Minimum, meaning the lowest amount of force needed. Meaning any less wouldn't work.

Aslo I don't do math, this is why.

You make it, your the one thats interesteed and brought up Samus vs kain, although I wont promise but input, as Skyrim should arrive today.

'k, you've had 4 or so days to play Skyrim and I've finally finished a few nagging projects. It's on.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, that's stupid. Of two showings in Soul Reaver, one was changed from a low showing to a higher showing in Soul Reaver 2. That doesn't retcon the earlier low showing, nor does it overrule a weakened Raziel harming Kain in the later game, Defiance. Which is, incidentally, another low showing. Kain being unharmed is the inconsistency one here.

Raziel was still pushing against him, though. He only stopped being in pain after the absorption started. And since we've seen the same effect heal Kain at the end of the game, it makes sense to have happened during that scene, as well. What do you mean by "the actual wound?" You mean this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PjlvkXu2WY#t=7m14s

? I've told you my laptop doesn't support screenshots before, in any case.

I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying here. When Jamie pierced the flesh, the meter read 8-10 pounds. It means that he was exerting between 8 and 10 pounds of force when he pierced it. Meaning it took around 9 pounds of force to pierce flesh with that spike, 8 minimum.

Who knows; I don't.

A. Stated to be pig flesh. See again: Mythbusters. B. Hardly matters, it got far deeper than a few millimeters past the skin. Wraith Blade didn't hit Kain's chest and he was healed in any case.

It just sort of broke through 3 other floors and a metal covering that you're ignoring for some reason. This floor happened to be stronger, I don't see why you have such a problem. Bowser's minions are decently strong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcH4v1zY-nU#t=16s

A Goomba, Paratroopa, and Shy Guy push that huge metal cannon a rather large distance from Bowser's Castle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0n2nPSOeo#t=40s

Not shown, but the same 3 moved that safe from under a pile of gold. These guys are probably in the double digit ton range. 10 or 20, thereabouts. lol 10 tonner Goomba. But this is irrelevant to the original point, which is Bowser shattering statues by simply rolling into them. And how he can also do so while on fire.

You're not explaining this very well, are you sure you understand it?

Are you under the impression that what the Mythbusters were testing was how much suction the meat produced when the spike was removed? Because there is really no other way for what you just said to make sense otherwise. And no, I don't need to find out how much the skin can "rebound" because the minimum was 8. Minimum, meaning the lowest amount of force needed. Meaning any less wouldn't work.

Aslo I don't do math, this is why.

'k, you've had 4 or so days to play Skyrim and I've finally finished a few nagging projects. It's on.

Its perfectly logical, a canon event in the game that displayed wrong statistics and storyline compared to the current canon was changed, you cant use retconned stats from old showings, Kains durability has been clearly buffed so using something older of him holding his face in pain is irrelevent. not sure how anything in Defiance is a low showing.

Barely, the guy was barely standing himself. He stopped being in pain after Raziel was not pushing any longer and on top of that, we dont ever see the same effect, again your claiming things over and over without basis.

The wound you seem to think shows that Kain is healed before Raziel tears out his heart.

Well your not doing a very good job of explaining what your saying, the myth busters show that 10 pounds of force from a man was enough to pierce all the way through the meat, proving it had little to no durability at all, unlike Kain.

Then why was Kain holding his whole chest while stooping low? It hit Kains chest/abdomen, perhaps his whole torso.

Stronger than what? the thin layers your trying to hype? Its stone either way, flags of rock.

Decently strong? First the cannon hardly looks to be 20 tons, not sure how you guestimated that up but further one was gasping with effort on the floor. Hardly thousands of tons material that your claiming for Bowser and their counter pushing can make him struggle pushing a stone statue. His power is not as high as I thought.

You seem to be looking for something thats not there or part of the equation imo. I cant see how you cant understand how a car hitting someone at X pressure would still be equel in impact to anything else dealing the same amount of pressure. The only question is the area it effects.

minimum of what was 8? the minimum force they were using to puncture the meat, at no point was there any struggle to pierce, they were measuring "resistance", its resistance was less than they were producing therefore this does not help you at all, you need the "rebound" because thats what Kains skin has.

4+ days is not enough, so I may not be that active but ill have a look.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its perfectly logical, a canon event in the game that displayed wrong statistics and storyline compared to the current canon was changed, you cant use retconned stats from old showings, Kains durability has been clearly buffed so using something older of him holding his face in pain is irrelevent. not sure how anything in Defiance is a low showing.

Except it isn't a "wrong" statistic. Those events are still canon regardless of whether or not you like them. You could at least go with more consistent showings, or at use an average or range. I've brought up Raziel failing to open a door twice, as well as Kain giving up after one try. By your arguments below, this "ruins" all their strength feats.

Barely, the guy was barely standing himself. He stopped being in pain after Raziel was not pushing any longer and on top of that, we dont ever see the same effect, again your claiming things over and over without basis.

We see Raziel's soul transferring into Kain. That is the "same effect." Kain stopped being in pain immediately after that effect began, and since we know from the end that Kain can be healed by this, it's not hard to figure out what happened.

The wound you seem to think shows that Kain is healed before Raziel tears out his heart.

So you mean where Raziel hits Kain's stomach?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=2m51s

Well your not doing a very good job of explaining what your saying, the myth busters show that 10 pounds of force from a man was enough to pierce all the way through the meat, proving it had little to no durability at all, unlike Kain.

Missed the point. That was to show the resistance of skin, and what the minimum pressure needed was. We're basing Kain's durability off of flesh, are we not? Otherwise, your argument that Kain's muscle/bone is stronger than his flesh doesn't work.

Then why was Kain holding his whole chest while stooping low? It hit Kains chest/abdomen, perhaps his whole torso.

You can see the wraith blade hit lower than that in the cutscene linked above. Stomach or belly area at best, and that is what Kain is holding in any case.

Stronger than what? the thin layers your trying to hype? Its stone either way, flags of rock.

Feats disagree. The several layers of stone that the stature hit first shattered easily, but the floor didn't. Any way you spin that is a feat for the floor.

Decently strong? First the cannon hardly looks to be 20 tons, not sure how you guestimated that up but further one was gasping with effort on the floor. Hardly thousands of tons material that your claiming for Bowser and their counter pushing can make him struggle pushing a stone statue. His power is not as high as I thought

It's made of solid metal, that stuff's heavy. It's just a lower showing for Bowser or a feat for his minions. See this is exactly what I was talking about in the first paragraph: Raziel takes three tries to open a door, or Kain gets hurt, and those don't count for some reason but Bowser has a trouble with a statue and suddenly he's a weakling in your eyes. What's wrong with an average, or just using the consistent showings?

You seem to be looking for something thats not there or part of the equation imo. I cant see how you cant understand how a car hitting someone at X pressure would still be equel in impact to anything else dealing the same amount of pressure. The only question is the area it effects.

That's the point. A star is affecting a larger area and I don't think you take that into account when you claim star core durability. Really, what's wrong with saying "tanks claws from a class 30"? It's much easier, and more accurate to the power level.

minimum of what was 8? the minimum force they were using to puncture the meat, at no point was there any struggle to pierce, they were measuring "resistance", its resistance was less than they were producing therefore this does not help you at all, you need the "rebound" because thats what Kains skin has.

It's the minimum to pierce. Below that is the rebound, I don't know how to explain it better than that.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Except it isn't a "wrong" statistic. Those events are still canon regardless of whether or not you like them. You could at least go with more consistent showings, or at use an average or range. I've brought up Raziel failing to open a door twice, as well as Kain giving up after one try. By your arguments below, this "ruins" all their strength feats.

We see Raziel's soul transferring into Kain. That is the "same effect." Kain stopped being in pain immediately after that effect began, and since we know from the end that Kain can be healed by this, it's not hard to figure out what happened.

So you mean where Raziel hits Kain's stomach?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=2m51s

Missed the point. That was to show the resistance of skin, and what the minimum pressure needed was. We're basing Kain's durability off of flesh, are we not? Otherwise, your argument that Kain's muscle/bone is stronger than his flesh doesn't work.

You can see the wraith blade hit lower than that in the cutscene linked above. Stomach or belly area at best, and that is what Kain is holding in any case.

Feats disagree. The several layers of stone that the stature hit first shattered easily, but the floor didn't. Any way you spin that is a feat for the floor.

It's made of solid metal, that stuff's heavy. It's just a lower showing for Bowser or a feat for his minions. See this is exactly what I was talking about in the first paragraph: Raziel takes three tries to open a door, or Kain gets hurt, and those don't count for some reason but Bowser has a trouble with a statue and suddenly he's a weakling in your eyes. What's wrong with an average, or just using the consistent showings?

That's the point. A star is affecting a larger area and I don't think you take that into account when you claim star core durability. Really, what's wrong with saying "tanks claws from a class 30"? It's much easier, and more accurate to the power level.

It's the minimum to pierce. Below that is the rebound, I don't know how to explain it better than that.

Of course it is, otherwise your ignoring the retcon. No, not unless your evidence showed them straining against the doors with sweat on their brow, isntead the opposite is true, their main feats have them doing it with ease unlike Bowsers.

No, sorry. Your just re-stating old arguments again. Hes never touched or healed by Raziels soul alone, hes been healed once, and thats by the wraith blade enchanbed by all balane guardians.

He holds his whole chest/stomach and the heart of Darkness is pretty much in the middle, covering those areas. He even spits blood. Infact, thats more serious internal injury because theres no wound after that on kains chest meaning most of the damage was inside.

They never said anything about minimum pressure, they said 10 pounds was enough pressure. Show me the bloke struggling to get the spike through?

😆 a feat for the floor now? Mario stone flags are stronger than all others! your reaching just hit a new high.

Bowsers first showing is ambigious at best, now you show me something that proves hes not that strong sort of proves my thesus that the first showing has been hyped.

A star creates its pressure within a vast area, if you know anything about pressure the smaller the area, the more severe the pressure will seem, hence why pins can be pushed through things far larger or heavier materials cant get into, the fact Kain can take pressure across a meter of his bodies top skin layer that the sun produces in a core many times greater than our planet? thats incredible, not Bowser struggling to push a figuirine or link pull a little block.

Your numbers back me even if we assume 5/6 pounds of force as a rebound which would be erronous.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Of course it is, otherwise your ignoring the retcon. No, not unless your evidence showed them straining against the doors with sweat on their brow, isntead the opposite is true, their main feats have them doing it with ease unlike Bowsers.

They only retconned one fight, Raziel still injured Kain before and after Soul Reaver 2.

No, sorry. Your just re-stating old arguments again. Hes never touched or healed by Raziels soul alone, hes been healed once, and thats by the wraith blade enchanbed by all balane guardians.

Evidence shows him being healed, though.

He holds his whole chest/stomach and the heart of Darkness is pretty much in the middle, covering those areas. He even spits blood. Infact, thats more serious internal injury because theres no wound after that on kains chest meaning most of the damage was inside.

That's because his hand is huge, he's holding his stomach area. Spitting blood just indicates there was blood in his mouth, it doesn't necessarily mean he has internal injuries.

They never said anything about minimum pressure, they said 10 pounds was enough pressure. Show me the bloke struggling to get the spike through?

You've seen it so many times I don' feel like looking for it again. You're missing that the equipment showed the pressure as soon as he pierced it, that means it was the minimum needed.

😆 a feat for the floor now? Mario stone flags are stronger than all others! your reaching just hit a new high.

What's the problem? A statue that broke through every other floor stopped at that one. That does, in fact, mean that the floor was stronger than all the others. Why are you generalizing?

Bowsers first showing is ambigious at best, now you show me something that proves hes not that strong sort of proves my thesus that the first showing has been hyped.

I could say the same thing about Raziel, which is the whole point. You're choosing to focus on only one feat instead of all of them, and choosing only good ones for Raziel and bad ones for Bowser.

A star creates its pressure within a vast area, if you know anything about pressure the smaller the area, the more severe the pressure will seem, hence why pins can be pushed through things far larger or heavier materials cant get into, the fact Kain can take pressure across a meter of his bodies top skin layer that the sun produces in a core many times greater than our planet? thats incredible, not Bowser struggling to push a figuirine or link pull a little block.

Hence, you have only looked at the star core pressure pushing on...what? Have you considered the surface area it's actually affecting?

Your numbers back me even if we assume 5/6 pounds of force as a rebound which would be erronous.

It's be more like 7, though. Any durability of skin depends on where it is, it could be anywhere between 8 and 10. Not a static value.

Originally posted by The Scenario
They only retconned one fight, Raziel still injured Kain before and after Soul Reaver 2.

Evidence shows him being healed, though.

That's because his hand is huge, he's holding his stomach area. Spitting blood just indicates there was blood in his mouth, it doesn't necessarily mean he has internal injuries.

You've seen it so many times I don' feel like looking for it again. You're missing that the equipment showed the pressure as soon as he pierced it, that means it was the minimum needed.

What's the problem? A statue that broke through every other floor stopped at that one. That does, in fact, mean that the floor was stronger than all the others. Why are you generalizing?

I could say the same thing about Raziel, which is the whole point. You're choosing to focus on only one feat instead of all of them, and choosing only good ones for Raziel and bad ones for Bowser.

Hence, you have only looked at the star core pressure pushing on...what? Have you considered the surface area it's actually affecting?

It's be more like 7, though. Any durability of skin depends on where it is, it could be anywhere between 8 and 10. Not a static value.

They retconned everything in that fight, including durability. Claiming an earlier scene is legit for durability when a recent, retconned scene boots durability is nonsense.

Show me. No evidence shows this, just your poor deductions of Kain not wailing in agony constantly.

What? how did blood get in his mouth if his body did not send it there? again, reaching.

The minimum needed to pierce the skin is not the same as the minimum the skin can rebound.

It broke through thinner piecies and stopped on one which broke it without even cracking the flags.

No you cant, how? nothing about Raziels feats are ambigious and he has no low showing yet wheras I actually have Bowser struggling.

The surface area its affecting is vast, the core of the sun is huge. Spread over that much, the actual power is less than what Kain can take, hence why Kains feat is so impressive.

w/e, your looking at hundreds of times if not thousands the pressure from those animals you mentioned gnawring through skin.

Originally posted by Burning thought
They retconned everything in that fight, including durability. Claiming an earlier scene is legit for durability when a recent, retconned scene boots durability is nonsense.

The retcon applies only to that fight, the rest is just a low showing for Kain. Raziel still rips his heart out, and still has trouble with doors. Again, low showing, you don't need to attach to just one feat as representative of the entire character. There's more to them than that.

Show me. No evidence shows this, just your poor deductions of Kain not wailing in agony constantly.

That is the the evidence, though. Kain's pain stops immediately after Raziel's soul transfers through him. He stops coughing up blood, too.

What? how did blood get in his mouth if his body did not send it there? again, reaching.

Where's he keep the blood? Stomach. Where'd he get hit? Stomach.
Blow to stomach leads to blood in the mouth.

The minimum needed to pierce the skin is not the same as the minimum the skin can rebound.

Exactly. It's higher, which is what the equipment was measuring.

It broke through thinner piecies and stopped on one which broke it without even cracking the flags.

Which is a feat for the flagstones, nothing more. You're latching onto a single event again, ignoring the rest.

No you cant, how? nothing about Raziels feats are ambigious and he has no low showing yet wheras I actually have Bowser struggling.

Raziel failed to open a door twice, succeeding on the third try. This is called a low showing. I can also show you Bowser punching iron balls several meters with zero effort. They're all different showings, the statue happened to be a low one for the sake of plot, and the Great Iron Ball happened to be high for the same reason. Again, the "struggling" is a singular event, not the norm.

The surface area its affecting is vast, the core of the sun is huge. Spread over that much, the actual power is less than what Kain can take, hence why Kains feat is so impressive.

So you have taken the actual area it's affecting into account? Or didn't you?

w/e, your looking at hundreds of times if not thousands the pressure from those animals you mentioned gnawring through skin.

It's really only a few times, remember the raptor being 5x and getting further than that? Bowser being huundreds of times does indicate he can pierce Kain, not the he needs it with his fire breath.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The retcon applies only to that fight, the rest is just a low showing for Kain. Raziel still rips his heart out, and still has trouble with doors. Again, low showing, you don't need to attach to just one feat as representative of the entire character. There's more to them than that.

That is the the evidence, though. Kain's pain stops immediately after Raziel's soul transfers through him. He stops coughing up blood, too.

Where's he keep the blood? Stomach. Where'd he get hit? Stomach.
Blow to stomach leads to blood in the mouth.

Exactly. It's higher, which is what the equipment was measuring.

Which is a feat for the flagstones, nothing more. You're latching onto a single event again, ignoring the rest.

Raziel failed to open a door twice, succeeding on the third try. This is called a low showing. I can also show you Bowser punching iron balls several meters with zero effort. They're all different showings, the statue happened to be a low one for the sake of plot, and the Great Iron Ball happened to be high for the same reason. Again, the "struggling" is a singular event, not the norm.

So you have taken the actual area it's affecting into account? Or didn't you?

It's really only a few times, remember the raptor being 5x and getting further than that? Bowser being huundreds of times does indicate he can pierce Kain, not the he needs it with his fire breath.

erm wut? no...you dont understand retcons apprently. If someone is canonically changed in a sequel, then the previous info concerning those things specifically especially durability would be taken into account, ignoring it is like ignoring the retcon.

He coughs up blood once after the attack, and I like how you seem to think pain is going to go on constantly, he was hit, he felt agony and he felt pain when raziel collided wit him. Why would he continue to do so, he actually stopped whining in pain before the Reaver started siphoning Raziel.

😆 no, the stomach is not a container for blood, where did you do science? blood in your mouth, spitting blood etc is actually a really serious problem, it means an organ may have been ruptured or the lungs have been damaged and your inhale has brought blood from the lungs.

Which as I said is useless for you, when your trying to claim X times something can pierce skin when kains feat is rebounding. You would need how much skin can take without being pierced at all, then use this evidence from myth busters.

The iron ball made him struggle as well, and its only the assumption that its completly solid that made it heavy by calculation, until now i let that slide but the fact its covered in cracks sort of makes me think its hollow and more importantly, this new scene, would make the iron ball consistent ot be lighter wouldnt it.

What are you asking now? we know the area of the sun is millions of meters squared right? you do know that right? so....the pressure, across the whole is much smaller than that across Kains whole, which is equel to being able to take the entirety of the suns pressure...

No I remember you trying to claim that, then showing mith busters proving that pig flesh can only take 10 pounds force, if you can prove a raptor only strikes with 10 pound so force in its claws, probably a fraction of the force human jaws can bite down with then that would be cool.

The skin, as shown can take hardly anything, the raptor and indeed the lions jaws can create hundreds times the force, not 5x.

Originally posted by Burning thought
erm wut? no...you dont understand retcons apprently. If someone is canonically changed in a sequel, then the previous info concerning those things specifically especially durability would be taken into account, ignoring it is like ignoring the retcon.

You're extending the retcon farther than it actually goes. All that was changed was how the time chamber fight went, anything else is simply your assumptions. It didn't end up changing Kain all that much, either, because Raziel still beat him in Defiance, a chronologically later game, which should retcon his durability to less than Raziel's power, no?

He coughs up blood once after the attack, and I like how you seem to think pain is going to go on constantly, he was hit, he felt agony and he felt pain when raziel collided wit him. Why would he continue to do so, he actually stopped whining in pain before the Reaver started siphoning Raziel.

Pain doesn't actually tend to stop suddenly without an outside force. It normally fades pretty slowly, or is shrugged off quickly. Kain was showing pain for a full 12 seconds before making contact with Raziel, got more pain dumped on him, and then instantly stopped as soon as he started absorbing Raziel.

😆 no, the stomach is not a container for blood, where did you do science? blood in your mouth, spitting blood etc is actually a really serious problem, it means an organ may have been ruptured or the lungs have been damaged and your inhale has brought blood from the lungs.

Are you serious? Where do vampires store the blood they eat if not the stomach? How are you so sure it's actually Kain's blood and not one of his meals? Rather akin to throwing up after a stomach blow, like where Raziel hit him. If Kain actually did have serious internal damage, that's all the more evidence for him being healed, since we know for a fact that Kain doesn't recover from damaged organs on his own merits.

Which as I said is useless for you, when your trying to claim X times something can pierce skin when kains feat is rebounding. You would need how much skin can take without being pierced at all, then use this evidence from myth busters.

I don't think you're getting that if you exert below the minimum required to pierce, you won't pierce. Knowing the minimum to pierce is the same as knowing the maximum to not pierce, roughly speaking.

The iron ball made him struggle as well, and its only the assumption that its completly solid that made it heavy by calculation, until now i let that slide but the fact its covered in cracks sort of makes me think its hollow and more importantly, this new scene, would make the iron ball consistent ot be lighter wouldnt it.

No, that's more just you reaching for any low feat you can find. The iron ball was not covered in cracks, and in fact had two or three visible markings tops. That does not indicate that it's hollow any more than cracks in Raziel's blocks do. In fact, Raziel failing to open a door is consistent with very light, hollow blocks and a paper frustum, right? Point being, one low showing does not invalidate all of a character's feats, or Raziel would forever be doomed to be less than a single tonner because he failed to open a door. Since that's stupid, it would be much better to simply take all feats into account and realize that it's the statue that's inconsistent with the iron ball and not the other way around.

What are you asking now? we know the area of the sun is millions of meters squared right? you do know that right? so....the pressure, across the whole is much smaller than that across Kains whole, which is equel to being able to take the entirety of the suns pressure...

If that pressure was being applied to the whole area, rather than just the core. You realize that stars are essentially balls of gas, and the pressure increases closer to the core and decreases farther away, correct? So using the star's whole area is...intellectually dishonest. Further, you seem to be trying to apply all of the pressure to Kain as if it was focused only on him, which seems strange. There's more than just Kain in the star, the pressure isn't acting on only him. Quite simply, this whole star core durability thing is nonsense.

No I remember you trying to claim that, then showing mith busters proving that pig flesh can only take 10 pounds force, if you can prove a raptor only strikes with 10 pound so force in its claws, probably a fraction of the force human jaws can bite down with then that would be cool.

I think I recall BR saying humans could bite with 100 or so pounds of force at maximum, so it could get pretty deep at only 10x.

The skin, as shown can take hardly anything, the raptor and indeed the lions jaws can create hundreds times the force, not 5x.

Don't think it was hundreds, more like 50x or so. Even so, with Bowser being over 400x it will do much more damage.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You're extending the retcon farther than it actually goes. All that was changed was how the time chamber fight went, anything else is simply your assumptions. It didn't end up changing Kain all that much, either, because Raziel still beat him in Defiance, a chronologically later game, which should retcon his durability to less than Raziel's power, no?

Pain doesn't actually tend to stop suddenly without an outside force. It normally fades pretty slowly, or is shrugged off quickly. Kain was showing pain for a full 12 seconds before making contact with Raziel, got more pain dumped on him, and then instantly stopped as soon as he started absorbing Raziel.

Are you serious? Where do vampires store the blood they eat if not the stomach? How are you so sure it's actually Kain's blood and not one of his meals? Rather akin to throwing up after a stomach blow, like where Raziel hit him. If Kain actually did have serious internal damage, that's all the more evidence for him being healed, since we know for a fact that Kain doesn't recover from damaged organs on his own merits.

I don't think you're getting that if you exert below the minimum required to pierce, you won't pierce. Knowing the minimum to pierce is the same as knowing the maximum to not pierce, roughly speaking.

No, that's more just you reaching for any low feat you can find. The iron ball was not covered in cracks, and in fact had two or three visible markings tops. That does not indicate that it's hollow any more than cracks in Raziel's blocks do. In fact, Raziel failing to open a door is consistent with very light, hollow blocks and a paper frustum, right? Point being, one low showing does not invalidate all of a character's feats, or Raziel would forever be doomed to be less than a single tonner because he failed to open a door. Since that's stupid, it would be much better to simply take all feats into account and realize that it's the statue that's inconsistent with the iron ball and not the other way around.

If that pressure was being applied to the whole area, rather than just the core. You realize that stars are essentially balls of gas, and the pressure increases closer to the core and decreases farther away, correct? So using the star's whole area is...intellectually dishonest. Further, you seem to be trying to apply all of the pressure to Kain as if it was focused only on him, which seems strange. There's more than just Kain in the star, the pressure isn't acting on only him. Quite simply, this whole star core durability thing is nonsense.

I think I recall BR saying humans could bite with 100 or so pounds of force at maximum, so it could get pretty deep at only 10x.

Don't think it was hundreds, more like 50x or so. Even so, with Bowser being over 400x it will do much more damage.

I didnt assume Kains durability was enhanced, its in the cutscene. Again, your mocking me, maybe you need another time out from this. And no, because different context, completly.

Kain shrugged it off after a good few seconds, it makes sense since thats when he was not getting hit or knocked into, punch someone in the stomach, give them some time to rest and their not going to be yelling in pain for another hour like you seem to think Kain should have done.

What an assumption, thats not even logical since Kains a dead body, its like your claiming every organ functions like it does in a living human, again reaching, also Kain did not vomit, he spat out blood, theres a difference. Who says he recovered? wut? he didnt restore the hole on his chest until the end..

They said the minimum they used, pierced. They never said anytihng below that wouldnt, you need to go find more evidence on this subject, someone not actually being able to pierce would be nice.

😆 funny, how you try and use massive reaches of lowballing characters that are not your own from pools of poor evidence but when theres actually Bowser, struggling in two situations with real evidence you cant take it. Why would a solid iron ball have cracks across it? Further, the force of the iron ball did not push Bowser into the ground, just like this statue did not even crack the final floor it fell on, all consistency imo on Bowsers strength, that its not as high as the fairly presumtious calcs claim.

I dont use the suns whole area, thats your problem. The suns core is specifcally noted as a seperate calculation in size to the sun;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_core

We know the pressure in this core is X high, we know the core is vast, therefore Kain can take more than many times the entire pressure in his little body. Yes, because otherwise I could not say Kain has the pressure resistance of the core of the sun, if Kain were literally in the sun, he wouldnt be able take the whole of the suns pressure, he would just assuming only pressure was applied sit there ralaxing, wouldnt feel a thing. 😆 I like how you ranted with a load of nonsense and somehow came to that conclusion, you dont know what your talking about. This whole "iron ball" bowser thing is far more nonsense.

Assuming thats not pulled ut of thin air, humans biting at 100 pounds, would be divided over the area of a tooth on a surface. You would get far more pressure than just 10x, you would get hundreds again.

I would like to see where your getting 400 from. Also again, show me the math proving only "50x or so".

Originally posted by Burning thought
I didnt assume Kains durability was enhanced, its in the cutscene. Again, your mocking me, maybe you need another time out from this. And no, because different context, completly.

Another time out? When was my first one? Regardless, one high showing does not invalidate all others in the same way that one low showing doesn't. And Kain has more low showings than high.

Kain shrugged it off after a good few seconds, it makes sense since thats when he was not getting hit or knocked into, punch someone in the stomach, give them some time to rest and their not going to be yelling in pain for another hour like you seem to think Kain should have done.

A few seconds isn't "time to rest" before you charge them again and make it worse like Raziel did. Only after the soul absorb effect began did Kain show actual recovery. He doesn't need to be screaming to show pain, either.

What an assumption, thats not even logical since Kains a dead body, its like your claiming every organ functions like it does in a living human, again reaching, also Kain did not vomit, he spat out blood, theres a difference. Who says he recovered? wut? he didnt restore the hole on his chest until the end..

The heart still functions normally, and Kain is not immune to poison. Both of these indicate he still has some living functionality, so it is in fact quite logical. Actually, people coughing up blood does indicate serious injury like you said, which is even more evidence for Kain to still work like a human, since that is a very human reaction to such an injury. That was the point, Kain can't restore his heart on his own, which indicates his other organs are the same. Since you seem to believe that Kain coughing up blood signifies significant injury to his organs, and he has shown an inability to heal organs, that means that something else healed them. Enter Raziel, at which point Kain immediately stops all indication of pain or injury.

They said the minimum they used, pierced. They never said anytihng below that wouldnt, you need to go find more evidence on this subject, someone not actually being able to pierce would be nice.

They don't really need to say something that obvious, though. They increased the force until it pierced and then recorded the minimum, that's all that is really needed.

😆 funny, how you try and use massive reaches of lowballing characters that are not your own from pools of poor evidence but when theres actually Bowser, struggling in two situations with real evidence you cant take it. Why would a solid iron ball have cracks across it? Further, the force of the iron ball did not push Bowser into the ground, just like this statue did not even crack the final floor it fell on, all consistency imo on Bowsers strength, that its not as high as the fairly presumtious calcs claim.

I think there's some error of communication here. I'm trying to illustrate to you that a single low showing does not invalidate everything. Even if the iron ball was hollow, and there is nothing to indicate this, it would still be an order of magnitute greater than the statue. There were no cracks in the iron ball, just a few scratches that were presumably made when it was fired out of a cannon. You appear to listing more durability feats for Bowser's floor and I'm not sure why, because it doesn't detract from anything. Again, even if the iron ball was hollow it would be inconsistent with the statue because it would still be hundreds of times heavier. The statue is also inconsistent with Bowser crushing dozens of statues much like it into dust, or punching smaller iron balls several meters, both with zero effort. That specific statue is just one low showing among many great one, you can't simply declare it the only usable feat.

I dont use the suns whole area, thats your problem. The suns core is specifcally noted as a seperate calculation in size to the sun;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_core

We know the pressure in this core is X high, we know the core is vast, therefore Kain can take more than many times the entire pressure in his little body. Yes, because otherwise I could not say Kain has the pressure resistance of the core of the sun, if Kain were literally in the sun, he wouldnt be able take the whole of the suns pressure, he would just assuming only pressure was applied sit there ralaxing, wouldnt feel a thing. 😆 I like how you ranted with a load of nonsense and somehow came to that conclusion, you dont know what your talking about. This whole "iron ball" bowser thing is far more nonsense.

Then why were you saying the sun was so huge when talking about the pressure? Should have simply said the sun's core. In any case, that link doesn't mention pressure at all, though I suppose that was only to illustrate the size. Though I do notice it varies quite a bit, so you're generalizing quite heavily when you say "sun core" with no mention of any specific size or type of star. Hence why everything would be thrown off. You still haven't answered the question of how the pressure is spread over his body, though, either, so you're still just using buzzwords to sound impressive. Well, the difference between this and the iron ball is that Bowser actually caught a giant iron ball, and Kain has never been anywhere near a star. You're trying to use a feat that never happened and calling it impressive, which is far more into the nonsense category.

Assuming thats not pulled ut of thin air, humans biting at 100 pounds, would be divided over the area of a tooth on a surface. You would get far more pressure than just 10x, you would get hundreds again.

And the 10 pounds was on a spike with a sharp point; it was not actually 10x the pressure required, and so much closer.

I would like to see where your getting 400 from. Also again, show me the math proving only "50x or so".

That 400 was from back to BloodRain's calcs. Lion's bite force was around 500 pounds, the spike was 10 pounds. 50x right there.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Another time out? When was my first one? Regardless, one high showing does not invalidate all others in the same way that one low showing doesn't. And Kain has more low showings than high.

A few seconds isn't "time to rest" before you charge them again and make it worse like Raziel did. Only after the soul absorb effect began did Kain show actual recovery. He doesn't need to be screaming to show pain, either.

The heart still functions normally, and Kain is not immune to poison. Both of these indicate he still has some living functionality, so it is in fact quite logical. Actually, people coughing up blood does indicate serious injury like you said, which is even more evidence for Kain to still work like a human, since that is a very human reaction to such an injury. That was the point, Kain can't restore his heart on his own, which indicates his other organs are the same. Since you seem to believe that Kain coughing up blood signifies significant injury to his organs, and he has shown an inability to heal organs, that means that something else healed them. Enter Raziel, at which point Kain immediately stops all indication of pain or injury.

They don't really need to say something that obvious, though. They increased the force until it pierced and then recorded the minimum, that's all that is really needed.

I think there's some error of communication here. I'm trying to illustrate to you that a single low showing does not invalidate everything. Even if the iron ball was hollow, and there is nothing to indicate this, it would still be an order of magnitute greater than the statue. There were no cracks in the iron ball, just a few scratches that were presumably made when it was fired out of a cannon. You appear to listing more durability feats for Bowser's floor and I'm not sure why, because it doesn't detract from anything. Again, even if the iron ball was hollow it would be inconsistent with the statue because it would still be hundreds of times heavier. The statue is also inconsistent with Bowser crushing dozens of statues much like it into dust, or punching smaller iron balls several meters, both with zero effort. That specific statue is just one low showing among many great one, you can't simply declare it the only usable feat.

Then why were you saying the sun was so huge when talking about the pressure? Should have simply said the sun's core. In any case, that link doesn't mention pressure at all, though I suppose that was only to illustrate the size. Though I do notice it varies quite a bit, so you're generalizing quite heavily when you say "sun core" with no mention of any specific size or type of star. Hence why everything would be thrown off. You still haven't answered the question of how the pressure is spread over his body, though, either, so you're still just using buzzwords to sound impressive. Well, the difference between this and the iron ball is that Bowser actually caught a giant iron ball, and Kain has never been anywhere near a star. You're trying to use a feat that never happened and calling it impressive, which is far more into the nonsense category.

And the 10 pounds was on a spike with a sharp point; it was not actually 10x the pressure required, and so much closer.

That 400 was from back to BloodRain's calcs. Lion's bite force was around 500 pounds, the spike was 10 pounds. 50x right there.

When I didnt respond ot you for a time, of course for some reason I couldnt help but reply eventually. I would like to see Kains "low showings" because if I recall, the only times hes been harmed at all are high in context you like to ignore.

It is for Kain and whats more, it didnt make the actualy wound worse afaik, we dont see that, we only see Kain in discomfort, all of which makes sense. Smash you in the ribs with a bat, then leap against you and your going to feel it but your not going to be whining in pain forever, especially when your a super durable vampire.

How do you know the heart functions normally? he has a black heart that revived him implanted in his chest, how is that normal? Raziel enters for healing at the end, not before though. Not when Kains walking around with a hole on his chest, Kain reacts to pain sure but that doesnt prove anything tbh, so does Raziel and hes a bag of bones.

Which is why all you have is a number for force used to pierce, not a force used that didnt.

Arguable, the iron ball if it was hollow could probably equel the weight of the statue assuming the statue itself is solid granite. hundreds of times? show me your math.

This is the "suns" core, the sun is a star and we have the pressure on wiki under "orders of magnitude pressure" near the bottom. I have all the numbers required to say Kain can take the pressure at the core of the sun with ease. Also what you just said concernin Bowser is like saying he could never survive a child punching him because its never happened, therefore its not a feat and is ridiculous to say so, see what I did there? your talking nonsense again.

You seem to be avoiding actually showing the math youve made, quote me the math you previously did on the spikes and the actual force in newtons behind the 10 pounds and ill probably do it for you to prove the difference between Kains durabilityi n the said area and Bowsers is far more than 5x, far more than 10-100x I would recall.

Thats force, not pressure. Youll find in the area of the lions tooth the pressure would be far greater than just 50x than the 10 pounds on flesh. And thats to pierce flesh.

Originally posted by Burning thought
When I didnt respond ot you for a time, of course for some reason I couldnt help but reply eventually. I would like to see Kains "low showings" because if I recall, the only times hes been harmed at all are high in context you like to ignore.

Ah, so when you ignored me. 'k, then. You've already seen Kain's low showings, though. Raziel harming him in Soul Reaver and Defiance come to mind. I can also mention most of Blood Omen 2 with the Sarafan Lord dominating him multiple times.

It is for Kain and whats more, it didnt make the actualy wound worse afaik, we dont see that, we only see Kain in discomfort, all of which makes sense. Smash you in the ribs with a bat, then leap against you and your going to feel it but your not going to be whining in pain forever, especially when your a super durable vampire.

You very well might whine in pain forever depending on how bad your rips got messed up, especially with someone pushing on you and making it worse. If your organ were injured and you're coughing up blood it's much more serious, too. Of course, if at that point there's a magical soul glow and you suddenly feel fine, that's some real good indication of healing. When Raziel jumps against Kain he actually cries out in pain again, and then once the absorption starts he immediately stops.

How do you know the heart functions normally? he has a black heart that revived him implanted in his chest, how is that normal? Raziel enters for healing at the end, not before though. Not when Kains walking around with a hole on his chest, Kain reacts to pain sure but that doesnt prove anything tbh, so does Raziel and hes a bag of bones.

For one thing, it still beats. It still circulates blood in his veins, and as Blood Omen shows he's vulnerable to poison. Blood Omen 2 goes out of its way to show that Kain still has circulation after he finds The Builder. Fact is, before that point Kain still worked as a biological creature. Coughing up blood in reaction to an injury is just more evidence that he wasn't just a corpse at that point. Hence healing.

Which is why all you have is a number for force used to pierce, not a force used that didnt.

Which is a minimum. Hence any lower number would work.

Arguable, the iron ball if it was hollow could probably equel the weight of the statue assuming the statue itself is solid granite. hundreds of times? show me your math.

Feel free to math that, but even hollow the ball is several times the size of the statue. There's no reason for the ball to hollow, however, as it is a cannonball. Those aren't hollow for a reason, you are aware. Even giving the statue the same weight as a Raziel's obelisk the ball would be over 30x heavier.

This is the "suns" core, the sun is a star and we have the pressure on wiki under "orders of magnitude pressure" near the bottom. I have all the numbers required to say Kain can take the pressure at the core of the sun with ease. Also what you just said concernin Bowser is like saying he could never survive a child punching him because its never happened, therefore its not a feat and is ridiculous to say so, see what I did there? your talking nonsense again.

Not seeing that in there, link it please. Your numbers really are kinda useless when Kain has other showings that contradict them, so you're kinda ignoring canon there. Still, you haven't given a good reason that a claw is even comparable to this pressure, they are completely different forces with completely different effects. Your analogies need work, we have Bowser tanking things demonstrably stronger than a child in verse. With Kain you just have a lot of numbers that are contradicted by the game.

You seem to be avoiding actually showing the math youve made, quote me the math you previously did on the spikes and the actual force in newtons behind the 10 pounds and ill probably do it for you to prove the difference between Kains durabilityi n the said area and Bowsers is far more than 5x, far more than 10-100x I would recall.

That's because I already did it a while back and then swore to never math anything for a stupid thread like this ever again. You don't remember that? Then I just went for Bowser's fire breath because that was all he needed.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Ah, so when you ignored me. 'k, then. You've already seen Kain's low showings, though. Raziel harming him in Soul Reaver and Defiance come to mind. I can also mention most of Blood Omen 2 with the Sarafan Lord dominating him multiple times.

You very well might whine in pain forever depending on how bad your rips got messed up, especially with someone pushing on you and making it worse. If your organ were injured and you're coughing up blood it's much more serious, too. Of course, if at that point there's a magical soul glow and you suddenly feel fine, that's some real good indication of healing. When Raziel jumps against Kain he actually cries out in pain again, and then once the absorption starts he immediately stops.

For one thing, it still beats. It still circulates blood in his veins, and as Blood Omen shows he's vulnerable to poison. Blood Omen 2 goes out of its way to show that Kain still has circulation after he finds The Builder. Fact is, before that point Kain still worked as a biological creature. Coughing up blood in reaction to an injury is just more evidence that he wasn't just a corpse at that point. Hence healing.

Which is a minimum. Hence any lower number would work.

Feel free to math that, but even hollow the ball is several times the size of the statue. There's no reason for the ball to hollow, however, as it is a cannonball. Those aren't hollow for a reason, you are aware. Even giving the statue the same weight as a Raziel's obelisk the ball would be over 30x heavier.

Not seeing that in there, link it please. Your numbers really are kinda useless when Kain has other showings that contradict them, so you're kinda ignoring canon there. Still, you haven't given a good reason that a claw is even comparable to this pressure, they are completely different forces with completely different effects. Your analogies need work, we have Bowser tanking things demonstrably stronger than a child in verse. With Kain you just have a lot of numbers that are contradicted by the game.

That's because I already did it a while back and then swore to never math anything for a stupid thread like this ever again. You don't remember that? Then I just went for Bowser's fire breath because that was all he needed.

Soul reaver retconned, Defiance, ignoring context as I said you would. You can mension it but I would laugh because BO 2 Kain is the weaker, non evolved entity who has no real strength feats.

What, why would you? Kain also feels nothing walking around with no heart later, so the fact he is now sort of confirms how powerful the attacks are. Not sure about feeling fine, looking at Kains face I would not desribe him as "fine" although, I would be very surprised if I was healed just because a sword was devouring someone.

The black heart beats yes but we dont really know how it works, it beats even after it gets ripped from his chest. We dont really know anything about the poison though. Prove he works as a biological creature, a vampire is not the same as a living human ,your going to need some good proof to prove he stores blood in his stomach.

Giving the statue the same weight would be a mistake as its smaller although again, show me the math on a hollow ball. And as I said, why would it have all those chips and scratches on it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(pressure)

He has no showings, we know the wraith blade>Raziels claws thats all. 😆 again, your ignorant and dont know what your talking about, theres no "entirely different forces", their both using force, and their both creating pressure, Kains resistance is greater, simple. I have numbers from a feat that shows him more durable than X pressure capable of, by your logic, Bowser cannot take hits from a child, he never has.

I thought you would retreat, and if we argue fire again, were argueing extremely slow fireballs or a very short range fire breath, both take more time to use than Kains going to give Bowser in any case and both do more physical damage than heat which at best can melt mortar between bricks so they fall apart.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Soul reaver retconned, Defiance, ignoring context as I said you would. You can mension it but I would laugh because BO 2 Kain is the weaker, non evolved entity who has no real strength feats.

The context isn't important, though, because the Wraith Blade has no feats and Kain was healed before it in any case. So it really had no effect on anything, and again only one part of Soul Reaver was retconned, it didn't retcon Raziel hurting Kain in their first fight. Well, Kain honestly doesn't seem to have improved that much since Blood Omen 2.

What, why would you? Kain also feels nothing walking around with no heart later, so the fact he is now sort of confirms how powerful the attacks are. Not sure about feeling fine, looking at Kains face I would not desribe him as "fine" although, I would be very surprised if I was healed just because a sword was devouring someone.

As I said, depending on how badly your bones are broken and organ punctured you may never fully recover from a very hard hit. Kain wasn't running on Scionness before, so he was still pretty living at that point. Surprising, sure, but we already known the sword can heal him so it's not that bad.

The black heart beats yes but we dont really know how it works, it beats even after it gets ripped from his chest. We dont really know anything about the poison though. Prove he works as a biological creature, a vampire is not the same as a living human ,your going to need some good proof to prove he stores blood in his stomach.

Pretty sure I did that last post, but fine. How is a vampire different from a living human? The poison was from mutants, it's not like it was magical or anything, and again there's the issue of circulation and Kain coughing up blood in reaction to injury. Taking another look at Blood Omen 2, Kain keeps the blood from the Builder in his veins, not stomach, but then that actually proves he still has circulation and isn't just a corpse.

Giving the statue the same weight would be a mistake as its smaller although again, show me the math on a hollow ball. And as I said, why would it have all those chips and scratches on it?

It's not really smaller given it has a much wider base and is nearly as tall. I'm not mathing that ball again, and cannonballs almost always have scratches or similar after being fired from a cannon; you can see the same effect on bullets fired from a gun. It's being pushed through a huge tube of metal by an explosion, why wouldn't there be scratches?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(pressure)

What are you trying to prove with this again?

He has no showings, we know the wraith blade>Raziels claws thats all. 😆 again, your ignorant and dont know what your talking about, theres no "entirely different forces", their both using force, and their both creating pressure, Kains resistance is greater, simple. I have numbers from a feat that shows him more durable than X pressure capable of, by your logic, Bowser cannot take hits from a child, he never has.

The wraith blade has no showings, though, so not sure what the big deal about that is. They are different forces, as one is a claw and the other is inside a star, those have completely different effects on what they interact with; you can't compare them just because the numbers match up, it's nonsense. Atmospheric pressure and surface pressure are kinda different things. The child has no feats, I doubt it can harm Bowser, which is more my logic.

I thought you would retreat, and if we argue fire again, were argueing extremely slow fireballs or a very short range fire breath, both take more time to use than Kains going to give Bowser in any case and both do more physical damage than heat which at best can melt mortar between bricks so they fall apart.

Nah, mostly because Bowser's flame is longer range than any Kain has seen before and is continuous, not to mention it destroys stione and metal. It's not like Kain has any actual resistance to fire, though, so it seems he'll just go up like a person.