Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by The Scenario
The context isn't important, though, because the Wraith Blade has no feats and Kain was healed before it in any case. So it really had no effect on anything, and again only one part of Soul Reaver was retconned, it didn't retcon Raziel hurting Kain in their first fight. Well, Kain honestly doesn't seem to have improved that much since Blood Omen 2.

As I said, depending on how badly your bones are broken and organ punctured you may never fully recover from a very hard hit. Kain wasn't running on Scionness before, so he was still pretty living at that point. Surprising, sure, but we already known the sword can heal him so it's not that bad.

Pretty sure I did that last post, but fine. How is a vampire different from a living human? The poison was from mutants, it's not like it was magical or anything, and again there's the issue of circulation and Kain coughing up blood in reaction to injury. Taking another look at Blood Omen 2, Kain keeps the blood from the Builder in his veins, not stomach, but then that actually proves he still has circulation and isn't just a corpse.

It's not really smaller given it has a much wider base and is nearly as tall. I'm not mathing that ball again, and cannonballs almost always have scratches or similar after being fired from a cannon; you can see the same effect on bullets fired from a gun. It's being pushed through a huge tube of metal by an explosion, why wouldn't there be scratches?
[url=http://britbitches.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/ridgefield20cannonball1.jpg[/url]

What are you trying to prove with this again?

The wraith blade has no showings, though, so not sure what the big deal about that is. They are different forces, as one is a claw and the other is inside a star, those have completely different effects on what they interact with; you can't compare them just because the numbers match up, it's nonsense. Atmospheric pressure and surface pressure are kinda different things. The child has no feats, I doubt it can harm Bowser, which is more my logic.

Nah, mostly because Bowser's flame is longer range than any Kain has seen before and is continuous, not to mention it destroys stione and metal. It's not like Kain has any actual resistance to fire, though, so it seems he'll just go up like a person.

Its got feats to defeat Kains durability, Kain who knows its power and feared it as the only weapon that can kill him. Then youve ignored evidence.

What sword? the wraith blade? wraith blade was not being used in that scene, the only thing we know is Kain was fine, not being hit basically....which makes sense.

How do you know it has no special properties, considering mutants do not exist? you seem to be making massive conclusions on a series you know little to nothing about with no evidence, as usual. What? apprently drinking blood goes straight to Kains veins therefore your conclusion is that Kain has circulation? wut? its true Vampires drinking blood mixes the power of said beings blood with their own, giving them attributes, thats nothing to do with circulation, or the heart tbh.

Show me, because on the rare occassions I have held a cannonball (in my youth) I do not recall it having large scratches on it, the impact of an explosion may make bumps at best not scratches, cracks appear in things that are hollow more than likely.

That the pressure Kain has taken is vastly higher than that at the core of the star. same forces, different object/process creating them, again ignorance, we still have a number for pressure, Kains resilence is higher. A child simply by its physical effort by your logic, regardless of feats should do it, simply based on what you said before.

Ive yet to see Bowsers fire do anything but create physical force, break things, he cant melt much at all. I have not seen a person melt either, Kain moving at human speed will avoid the fire anyway and one shot Bowser from a choice of spells or abilities.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its got feats to defeat Kains durability, Kain who knows its power and feared it as the only weapon that can kill him. Then youve ignored evidence.

It's got no feats anywhere else, though, so it's not that impressive when used on Kain and so wouldn't change context much. He just got hit by something that hurts him. By the evidence, the only inconsistency is in Soul Reaver 2, though Defiance solved it well enough.

What sword? the wraith blade? wraith blade was not being used in that scene, the only thing we know is Kain was fine, not being hit basically....which makes sense.

I think there's been an error in communication here. Raziel hits Kain with the wraith blade and then tears his heart out. When paired with Raziel harming Kain in Soul Reave, it's clear that Raziel is intended to be able to harm Kain.

How do you know it has no special properties, considering mutants do not exist? you seem to be making massive conclusions on a series you know little to nothing about with no evidence, as usual. What? apprently drinking blood goes straight to Kains veins therefore your conclusion is that Kain has circulation? wut? its true Vampires drinking blood mixes the power of said beings blood with their own, giving them attributes, thats nothing to do with circulation, or the heart tbh.

Mutants do exist, just not the kind you seem to be thinking of. In any case, how do you it does have any special properties? If you want to claim it does you need evidence, otherwise it's just poison. Please, enough with the "series you know little about," it's really quite rude. Yes, the fact that Kain has blood he can feel blood moving around in his veins proves he has circulation, I honestly don't see how you can deny this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77OgxBWkgA#t=3m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMWQAmW5G3I#t=50s

Show me, because on the rare occassions I have held a cannonball (in my youth) I do not recall it having large scratches on it, the impact of an explosion may make bumps at best not scratches, cracks appear in things that are hollow more than likely.

http://britbitches.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/ridgefield20cannonball1.jpg
Again, there are no cracks on Bowser's cannonball, and there is no reason cracks would even imply it being hollow. The fact it's a cannonball should be enough, who even makes hollow ones that aren't grapeshot?

That the pressure Kain has taken is vastly higher than that at the core of the star. same forces, different object/process creating them, again ignorance, we still have a number for pressure, Kains resilence is higher. A child simply by its physical effort by your logic, regardless of feats should do it, simply based on what you said before.

They are not comparable, don't try to pretend they are. Different objects, processes, and effects, you can't say one is interchangeable with the other; it just doesn't work. How is that by my logic? Please quote where I said that, anything still needs feats.

Ive yet to see Bowsers fire do anything but create physical force, break things, he cant melt much at all. I have not seen a person melt either, Kain moving at human speed will avoid the fire anyway and one shot Bowser from a choice of spells or abilities.

Then you're just ignoring Bowser burning trees in that case, as well as coral underwater, not to mention the metal, brick, and stone. Kain can't dodge forever, and he can't hurt Bowser based on feats.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's got no feats anywhere else, though, so it's not that impressive when used on Kain and so wouldn't change context much. He just got hit by something that hurts him. By the evidence, the only inconsistency is in Soul Reaver 2, though Defiance solved it well enough.

I think there's been an error in communication here. Raziel hits Kain with the wraith blade and then tears his heart out. When paired with Raziel harming Kain in Soul Reave, it's clear that Raziel is intended to be able to harm Kain.

Mutants do exist, just not the kind you seem to be thinking of. In any case, how do you it does have any special properties? If you want to claim it does you need evidence, otherwise it's just poison. Please, enough with the "series you know little about," it's really quite rude. Yes, the fact that Kain has blood he can feel blood moving around in his veins proves he has circulation, I honestly don't see how you can deny this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77OgxBWkgA#t=3m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMWQAmW5G3I#t=50s

http://britbitches.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/ridgefield20cannonball1.jpg
Again, there are no cracks on Bowser's cannonball, and there is no reason cracks would even imply it being hollow. The fact it's a cannonball should be enough, who even makes hollow ones that aren't grapeshot?

They are not comparable, don't try to pretend they are. Different objects, processes, and effects, you can't say one is interchangeable with the other; it just doesn't work. How is that by my logic? Please quote where I said that, anything still needs feats.

Then you're just ignoring Bowser burning trees in that case, as well as coral underwater, not to mention the metal, brick, and stone. Kain can't dodge forever, and he can't hurt Bowser based on feats.

Why would it need a feat of power anywhere else? It counters/defeats a durability of incredible value.

When paired with the wraith blade only, and I think its clear that the devs, due to the changes in durability in SR 2, that retcons the previous decided Kains stronger than his Sr self and tbh, you dont have anything in Soulreaver, apart from Kain holding his face in what you assume is pain, you still dont have any physical wound.

Well you dont know anything about it, its more rude trying to claim random, unrproven things over someone who does. In the first vid she says "power" and in the second, he mensions the builders blood, its clear theres nothing alike to your comparison here, he drinks blood yet it goes straight to his veins so your whole argument which was to claim Kains body worked biologically sound was disproven. Also absorbing "veins" is a term used for drinking another vampires blood so mentioning veins is not necesserily literal.

You see thats an old cannonball, possibly found in the water after years, apprently Bowsers cannonball has cracks in it worse than that after one fireing? (Ive yet to see it fired more than once).

You just said before that Kain cant take pressure hes shown to be able to take unless hes actually done the speciic feat, e.g. hes not felt the suns pressure therefore you belive I cant use it, yet Bowsers not been hit by a child, same difference. Also your just making hot air, youve yet to prove your counter theory or claims and I am using actual science, saying "well you cant do this! because I dont understand it!" is not a counter.

At best he set them alight, just like any fire, so thats his best feat and yes, Kain can dodge forever, hell I could probably dodge forever, its that slow. Based on feats Bowser can take whats essentially stone smashing, considering stone is below the pascals Raziel can produce on two claws, Kain with his one thin sword tip smaller than Raziels claws+all its power, Bowsers doomed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Why would it need a feat of power anywhere else? It counters/defeats a durability of incredible value.

When you're trying to say it did something special to Kain, using it hurting Kain as evidence is not going to work. It's circular logic: "The wraith blade can hurt Kain because it's super powerful!"

"How do we know it's super powerful?"

"Because it can hurt Kain!"

And so on. The Wraith Blade has no feats that would change the context of Raziel ripping Kain's heart out.

When paired with the wraith blade only, and I think its clear that the devs, due to the changes in durability in SR 2, that retcons the previous decided Kains stronger than his Sr self and tbh, you dont have anything in Soulreaver, apart from Kain holding his face in what you assume is pain, you still dont have any physical wound.

The Soul Reaver engine doesn't show wounds. Heck, neither does the Soul Reaver 2 engine, which is why we have Human Raziel not show any wounds when stabbed with the Blood Reaver. You know this and yet still try to apply it to an argument. The fact remains Kain reacted in great pain to Raziel hitting him, in a cutscene that wasn't retconned. And then in Defiance he rips Kain's heart out. A change in durability seems to just be wishful thinking.

Well you dont know anything about it, its more rude trying to claim random, unrproven things over someone who does. In the first vid she says "power" and in the second, he mensions the builders blood, its clear theres nothing alike to your comparison here, he drinks blood yet it goes straight to his veins so your whole argument which was to claim Kains body worked biologically sound was disproven. Also absorbing "veins" is a term used for drinking another vampires blood so mentioning veins is not necesserily literal.

I seem to know more than you about a lot of it, really, since I actually back up my statements with actual canon from the games. For instances, you seem to be arguing that "The Builder's blood coursing coldly through my veins" does not indicate that Kain has a circulatory system when the opposite is true. Kain being vulnerable to poison similarly indicates he workks like a living a living things, as does the fact that vampire hearts are known to still pump blood. Fact is, Kain isn't just a corpse.

You see thats an old cannonball, possibly found in the water after years, apprently Bowsers cannonball has cracks in it worse than that after one fireing? (Ive yet to see it fired more than once).

You're dismissing the entire thing on "maybe it was an old cannonball found in the water"? Really, just on a "maybe"? Neither of them have any cracks in them anyway, at most there are scratches and pockmarks that all cannonballs have. You're really reaching if you think the ball is hollow.

You just said before that Kain cant take pressure hes shown to be able to take unless hes actually done the speciic feat, e.g. hes not felt the suns pressure therefore you belive I cant use it, yet Bowsers not been hit by a child, same difference. Also your just making hot air, youve yet to prove your counter theory or claims and I am using actual science, saying "well you cant do this! because I dont understand it!" is not a counter.

Not even close. You can't use Kain sitting in a star because it has never happened, yes. But what you're doing now is claiming that a child could beat Bowser and screaming "prove me wrong!" when the burden of proof is still on you. I've never made a claim relating to any child except perhaps Baby Mario being able to fight Baby Bowser; that's all something you're trying to put in my mouth unsuccessfully. You know what you can use? Raziel hitting Kain. You can't take that and say Kain sits in stars all day, it just doesn't work like that. You've yet to actually prove that a claw and a star are comparable forces, so you don't really have a case there anyway.

At best he set them alight, just like any fire, so thats his best feat and yes, Kain can dodge forever, hell I could probably dodge forever, its that slow. Based on feats Bowser can take whats essentially stone smashing, considering stone is below the pascals Raziel can produce on two claws, Kain with his one thin sword tip smaller than Raziels claws+all its power, Bowsers doomed.

"Kain can dodge forever" = [Citation Needed]

Actually, based on feats Bowser can take stone smashing, which is already above Raziel's strength, focused on a spiked shell with more force and doubled mass. Not to mention the countless explosions Bowser has tanked. Once Kain is on fire, it's pretty much over.

Originally posted by The Scenario
When you're trying to say it did something special to Kain, using it hurting Kain as evidence is not going to work. It's circular logic: "The wraith blade can hurt Kain because it's super powerful!"

"How do we know it's super powerful?"

"Because it can hurt Kain!"

And so on. The Wraith Blade has no feats that would change the context of Raziel ripping Kain's heart out.

The Soul Reaver engine doesn't show wounds. Heck, neither does the Soul Reaver 2 engine, which is why we have Human Raziel not show any wounds when stabbed with the Blood Reaver. You know this and yet still try to apply it to an argument. The fact remains Kain reacted in great pain to Raziel hitting him, in a cutscene that wasn't retconned. And then in Defiance he rips Kain's heart out. A change in durability seems to just be wishful thinking.

I seem to know more than you about a lot of it, really, since I actually back up my statements with actual canon from the games. For instances, you seem to be arguing that "The Builder's blood coursing coldly through my veins" does not indicate that Kain has a circulatory system when the opposite is true. Kain being vulnerable to poison similarly indicates he workks like a living a living things, as does the fact that vampire hearts are known to still pump blood. Fact is, Kain isn't just a corpse.

You're dismissing the entire thing on "maybe it was an old cannonball found in the water"? Really, just on a "maybe"? Neither of them have any cracks in them anyway, at most there are scratches and pockmarks that all cannonballs have. You're really reaching if you think the ball is hollow.

Not even close. You can't use Kain sitting in a star because it has never happened, yes. But what you're doing now is claiming that a child could beat Bowser and screaming "prove me wrong!" when the burden of proof is still on you. I've never made a claim relating to any child except perhaps Baby Mario being able to fight Baby Bowser; that's all something you're trying to put in my mouth unsuccessfully. You know what you can use? Raziel hitting Kain. You can't take that and say Kain sits in stars all day, it just doesn't work like that. You've yet to actually prove that a claw and a star are comparable forces, so you don't really have a case there anyway.

"Kain can dodge forever" = [Citation Needed]

Actually, based on feats Bowser can take stone smashing, which is already above Raziel's strength, focused on a spiked shell with more force and doubled mass. Not to mention the countless explosions Bowser has tanked. Once Kain is on fire, it's pretty much over.

The fact it hurt Kain does make it super powerful though. Because its defeating Kains vast durability and even causing internal damage, it also damages the soul and has a list of elemental effects from heat to ice.

So you have no evidence and that was an FMV, not the SR 2 engine for hte intro. He held his face, infact its like he reacted to being poke in the eye, which may be true and the durability in said cutscene may have been retconned because Kain can now take zero damage on his body. A change in durability is shown in FMV.

Mockery. Kains an animated corpse powered by dark magic, and then his "scion of balance" power. Youve yet to prove any of your claims here, having the builders blood in his veins immediatly disproves anything comparable to humans for inner workings, certainly not his stomach, blood apprently goes straight to kains veins.

Not really, I would say the opposite true because afterall how could someone so weak they cant defeat the strength of a few tiny critters like Bowsers minions if they could lift the ball if it was solid?

Your grasping at straws, go and find me the special sources of proof that prove pressure as we know it is completly different in a star than pressure anywhere else, their all in pascals/bar afterall. You dont know what your talking about.

Your backed up against that wall again. Maybe ill play silly bugger as well and make this more fun. Kains TK can send people flying and break stone, therefore, Kains TK is more powerful than Bowser.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The fact it hurt Kain does make it super powerful though. Because its defeating Kains vast durability and even causing internal damage, it also damages the soul and has a list of elemental effects from heat to ice.

In which case there's nothing proving the Wraith Blade affects durability, which was your original claim. Proof that it damages the soul and feats for elemental powers?

So you have no evidence and that was an FMV, not the SR 2 engine for hte intro. He held his face, infact its like he reacted to being poke in the eye, which may be true and the durability in said cutscene may have been retconned because Kain can now take zero damage on his body. A change in durability is shown in FMV.

The evidence is Kain reacting to an attack, you understand. That indicates Raziel hurt him. The intro to Soul Reaver 2 is not a change in durability, it is a high showing. Nothing indicates Kain's durability actually changed at any point, and Defiance still has Raziel ripping Kain's heart out.

Mockery. Kains an animated corpse powered by dark magic, and then his "scion of balance" power. Youve yet to prove any of your claims here, having the builders blood in his veins immediatly disproves anything comparable to humans for inner workings, certainly not his stomach, blood apprently goes straight to kains veins.

Where? Kain is an animated corpse who nontheless acts and is acted upon like a living creature. The Builder's blood proves he has a circulatory system and Blood Omen proves he reacts to poison, something a corpse would not do. Blood going to his veins does not disprove Kain's living features, it is simply a peculiarity.

Not really, I would say the opposite true because afterall how could someone so weak they cant defeat the strength of a few tiny critters like Bowsers minions if they could lift the ball if it was solid?

Understand that you brought it upon yourself when I say, after all, how could someone so weak they couldn't open a door properly be able to tip a large obelisk if it was solid? This again ties into my point of low showings and your habit of focusing on only one showing and disregarding all the others. Bowser has more than this, you realize?

Your grasping at straws, go and find me the special sources of proof that prove pressure as we know it is completly different in a star than pressure anywhere else, their all in pascals/bar afterall. You dont know what your talking about.

You're the one claiming it, that puts the burden of proof on you. I don't have to prove you wrong so much as you have to prove yourself right.

Your backed up against that wall again. Maybe ill play silly bugger as well and make this more fun. Kains TK can send people flying and break stone, therefore, Kains TK is more powerful than Bowser.

Still waiting on that citation for Kain dodging forever, as well as any reason he would survive being on fire. Based on feats Kain's TK isn't strong enough to hurt Bowser, though.

Originally posted by The Scenario
In which case there's nothing proving the Wraith Blade affects durability, which was your original claim. Proof that it damages the soul and feats for elemental powers?

The evidence is Kain reacting to an attack, you understand. That indicates Raziel hurt him. The intro to Soul Reaver 2 is not a change in durability, it is a high showing. Nothing indicates Kain's durability actually changed at any point, and Defiance still has Raziel ripping Kain's heart out.

Where? Kain is an animated corpse who nontheless acts and is acted upon like a living creature. The Builder's blood proves he has a circulatory system and Blood Omen proves he reacts to poison, something a corpse would not do. Blood going to his veins does not disprove Kain's living features, it is simply a peculiarity.

Understand that you brought it upon yourself when I say, after all, how could someone so weak they couldn't open a door properly be able to tip a large obelisk if it was solid? This again ties into my point of low showings and your habit of focusing on only one showing and disregarding all the others. Bowser has more than this, you realize?

You're the one claiming it, that puts the burden of proof on you. I don't have to prove you wrong so much as you have to prove yourself right.

Still waiting on that citation for Kain dodging forever, as well as any reason he would survive being on fire. Based on feats Kain's TK isn't strong enough to hurt Bowser, though.

Of course it affects durability if it does physical damage to durability, if I had just smashed your ribs with a baseball bat, I have affected their/your durability. I never made the cliam that the wraith blade had a magic effect that reduces durability, I was argueing that by nature of physical/magic damage, the strike weakens Kain for the next blow. The Soul thing is common knowledge and so is the elemental powers, infact the reavers ice spell looks the same as Samus' ice weapons and Raziel has tons more than that in the wraith blade. The whole "herp derp, the wraith blade is irrelevent" joke is not amusing to me.

What do you find difficult to grasp about one old scene showing newly retconned information as opposed to a better feat in a new one? it would only be a basic "high showing" if the scene did not actually retcon part of the game. And Kain reacting to attack? not exactly, "hurt" is not the same as damaged.

How does the builders blood prove that at all? Blood omen allowed Kain to be poisoned, typically from drinking bad blood, this method is unique.

Open a door properly? I can open doors properly, I can smash a wooden one off its hinges, that doesnt mean every door I cant or dont open is too hard for me, Raziels method here makes sense.

I never claimed pressure at the core of a star was different to general pressure, that was your argumetn not mine. I am happy in accepting that pressure, pascals/bar etc are the same and I have yet to see evidence otherwise.

This has been proven based on being able to move at peak human speed which beyond the speed of any of Bowsers attacks. BUT YES IT IS! it can break stone with raziels body??! Apprently breaking stone is the highest feat one can accomplish.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Of course it affects durability if it does physical damage to durability, if I had just smashed your ribs with a baseball bat, I have affected their/your durability. I never made the cliam that the wraith blade had a magic effect that reduces durability, I was argueing that by nature of physical/magic damage, the strike weakens Kain for the next blow. The Soul thing is common knowledge and so is the elemental powers, infact the reavers ice spell looks the same as Samus' ice weapons and Raziel has tons more than that in the wraith blade. The whole "herp derp, the wraith blade is irrelevent" joke is not amusing to me.

That's not really how that works, though. It's not really going to make more damage that much easier; I think you're just overestimating that effect. I didn't ask about how common the elemental reavers were, I asked for feat to prove it's impressive.

What do you find difficult to grasp about one old scene showing newly retconned information as opposed to a better feat in a new one? it would only be a basic "high showing" if the scene did not actually retcon part of the game. And Kain reacting to attack? not exactly, "hurt" is not the same as damaged.

There part where you declare it Kain's only showing ever. It only retconned one scene, not Kain's whole physical makeup. Raziel damages Kain before and after this, it's an inconsistency.

How does the builders blood prove that at all? Blood omen allowed Kain to be poisoned, typically from drinking bad blood, this method is unique.

The Builder's blood coursed through his veins. Hence he has veins, hence there is blood moving inside them, hence this is how a circulaory system works. Kain can poisoned by attacks in Blood Omen, as well, and do you think a human would not be poisoned by bad blood?

Open a door properly? I can open doors properly, I can smash a wooden one off its hinges, that doesnt mean every door I cant or dont open is too hard for me, Raziels method here makes sense.

Raziel had to try three times to open a door. By your logic here that means he's too weak for any of his feats to make sense so they must all be hollow/flukes. That's essentially what you're doing to Bowser right now.

I never claimed pressure at the core of a star was different to general pressure, that was your argumetn not mine. I am happy in accepting that pressure, pascals/bar etc are the same and I have yet to see evidence otherwise.

Exactly, you're claiming that they're exactly the same. That's what you need evidence for.

This has been proven based on being able to move at peak human speed which beyond the speed of any of Bowsers attacks. BUT YES IT IS! it can break stone with raziels body??! Apprently breaking stone is the highest feat one can accomplish.

lol
You're missing the amount of stone Bowser breaks. Raziel just cracked it a little, whereas Bowser has tanked spikes with enough force to shatter multiple meters of stone.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's not really how that works, though. It's not really going to make more damage that much easier; I think you're just overestimating that effect. I didn't ask about how common the elemental reavers were, I asked for feat to prove it's impressive.

There part where you declare it Kain's only showing ever. It only retconned one scene, not Kain's whole physical makeup. Raziel damages Kain before and after this, it's an inconsistency.

The Builder's blood coursed through his veins. Hence he has veins, hence there is blood moving inside them, hence this is how a circulaory system works. Kain can poisoned by attacks in Blood Omen, as well, and do you think a human would not be poisoned by bad blood?

Raziel had to try three times to open a door. By your logic here that means he's too weak for any of his feats to make sense so they must all be hollow/flukes. That's essentially what you're doing to Bowser right now.

Exactly, you're claiming that they're exactly the same. That's what you need evidence for.

lol
You're missing the amount of stone Bowser breaks. Raziel just cracked it a little, whereas Bowser has tanked spikes with enough force to shatter multiple meters of stone.

Yes it is, if a group of people came in with baseball bats and beat up the heavyweight boxing champ and then I came in and delivered the final punch, that does not mean I could take him at his peak.

Its the only showing where Kains base durability is tested and proven.

He has veins with blood in yes, not just his own, apprently anyones blood he absorbs mixes in and gives him certain abilities, how does this prove that he has a biological system anything alike to a living being, it proves the opposite tbh. I dont know of any human who can drink blood, automatically add it to his own and somehow get ill from it no, tbh I dont even know of anything that has poisonous blood.

Raziel tapped a door, then knocked it off its hinges. No, I am using an actual showing of him being weak, then logically comparing it to an iron ball thats just been assumed completly solid for lulz and mathed as such.

Oh sorry, correction;

Apprently breaking a few meters of stone is the highest feat one can accomplish

Nothing on earth can compare to stone breaking power!

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes it is, if a group of people came in with baseball bats and beat up the heavyweight boxing champ and then I came in and delivered the final punch, that does not mean I could take him at his peak.

That's not a very good comparison unless your hand actually went through his chest. Otherwise you're just talking about endurance, since your punch would have affected him anyway. Hitting a guy with a bat won't suddenly make him able to be pierced by a fist, sorry. Though if you're claiming it, you might want to take a stab at proving it first.

Its the only showing where Kains base durability is tested and proven.

Except for all the others, you mean. There's still the matter of Raziel shoving his hand through Kain's chest. Note that he did it open handed, palm first, with all three claws. That's a ton less pressure than two points slashing, and is not even close to being covered by your durability reduction theory, especially when the Wraith Blade hit a different area.

He has veins with blood in yes, not just his own, apprently anyones blood he absorbs mixes in and gives him certain abilities, how does this prove that he has a biological system anything alike to a living being, it proves the opposite tbh. I dont know of any human who can drink blood, automatically add it to his own and somehow get ill from it no, tbh I dont even know of anything that has poisonous blood.

Not his own? That's an odd claim to make, given the implication that it's both Kain's blood and the Builder's. Kain still operates like a living thing, is the point. Blood circulates, his heart beats, he needs to eat, he's vulnerable to poison. Heck, according to you he reacts to internal injuries. Blood going to his veins doesn't erase all of that, it just indicates his biology is different. Certain toads, blowfish, lots of living creatures are poisonous, just not as many as those that are venomous.

Raziel tapped a door, then knocked it off its hinges. No, I am using an actual showing of him being weak, then logically comparing it to an iron ball thats just been assumed completly solid for lulz and mathed as such.

Not really, what you're doing is more akin to taking a lower strength feat and downplaying the heck out of everything else. I mean, moving that statue is still a good feat, just not as impressive as the iron ball. Which, as a cannonball, has a legitimate reason to be solid. The double standard then comes in when you refuse to allow anything of Raziel's to be math'd as hollow after he completely fails to open a door correctly.

Oh sorry, correction;

Apprently tilting a few meters of stone is the highest feat one can accomplish

Nothing on earth can compare to stone tilting power!

To quote you:"fixed."
As compared to Raziel just kinda tipping over some stone, Bowser breaking meters of it is easily better.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's not a very good comparison unless your hand actually went through his chest. Otherwise you're just talking about endurance, since your punch would have affected him anyway. Hitting a guy with a bat won't suddenly make him able to be pierced by a fist, sorry. Though if you're claiming it, you might want to take a stab at proving it first.

Except for all the others, you mean. There's still the matter of Raziel shoving his hand through Kain's chest. Note that he did it open handed, palm first, with all three claws. That's a ton less pressure than two points slashing, and is not even close to being covered by your durability reduction theory, especially when the Wraith Blade hit a different area.

Not his own? That's an odd claim to make, given the implication that it's both Kain's blood and the Builder's. Kain still operates like a living thing, is the point. Blood circulates, his heart beats, he needs to eat, he's vulnerable to poison. Heck, according to you he reacts to internal injuries. Blood going to his veins doesn't erase all of that, it just indicates his biology is different. Certain toads, blowfish, lots of living creatures are poisonous, just not as many as those that are venomous.

Not really, what you're doing is more akin to taking a lower strength feat and downplaying the heck out of everything else. I mean, moving that statue is still a good feat, just not as impressive as the iron ball. Which, as a cannonball, has a legitimate reason to be solid. The double standard then comes in when you refuse to allow anything of Raziel's to be math'd as hollow after he completely fails to open a door correctly.

To quote you:"fixed."
As compared to Raziel just kinda tipping over some stone, Bowser breaking meters of it is easily better.

Its a perfect comparison although your probably missing hte point on purpose, if people weaken someone or something down, be coming in to finish it off is not that impressive. Kains been greatly wounded here.

I dont know about palm first but that just proves how powerful the wraith blade is, not only is it capable of harming Kain to the point where hes bending over in agony but softens his chest enough for hte strike. And theres no "different" area, it covers his torso, so does Raziels attack, ignoring the wraith blade is pointless.

Reacting to internal injuries is the same as most animated beings though in this series, Raziel inluded who does not seem to have any organs at all of note. Kain simply does things any cold dead animate of his kind do, thats nothing comparable to a living biological entity tbh, its more supernatural.

How do you know its a cannon ball? just because its of a similiar shape? how its fired is nothing alike to cannon, theres no smoke or anything, it just pops out and flies along at speeds not befitting the force required to launch it so accuratly on top of Bowser. What? 😆 you make strange comparisons over and over, why would Raziel not smashing every door he comes across to splinters for the sake of it mean any of his blocks that could not possibly be hollow actually be so? unlike a ball that fails to damage the ground, has cracks on it and with the statue thing, would make more sense to be hollow.

Bowsers never tipped over stone, hes struggled against something arguably lighter.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its a perfect comparison although your probably missing hte point on purpose, if people weaken someone or something down, be coming in to finish it off is not that impressive. Kains been greatly wounded here.

It's completely different and doesn't cover what you seem to be saying. Getting hit with a sword that cuts you doesn't automatically make any other hit pierce you, nor does that apply to baseball bats. One hit won't make a punch kill you, or even do all that much different from a regular punch to a helpless oppenent.

I dont know about palm first but that just proves how powerful the wraith blade is, not only is it capable of harming Kain to the point where hes bending over in agony but softens his chest enough for hte strike. And theres no "different" area, it covers his torso, so does Raziels attack, ignoring the wraith blade is pointless.

Softening Kain up for a strike is just your fanon, there's nothing to support it. The wraith blade hit his stomach, Raziel hit him open palmed in the middle of his torso, there's pretty much no overlap between the hits.

Reacting to internal injuries is the same as most animated beings though in this series, Raziel inluded who does not seem to have any organs at all of note. Kain simply does things any cold dead animate of his kind do, thats nothing comparable to a living biological entity tbh, its more supernatural.

Including being vulnerable to poison? I don't actually care if he's living or not, he still reacts and works like a living thing.

How do you know its a cannon ball? just because its of a similiar shape? how its fired is nothing alike to cannon, theres no smoke or anything, it just pops out and flies along at speeds not befitting the force required to launch it so accuratly on top of Bowser. What? 😆 you make strange comparisons over and over, why would Raziel not smashing every door he comes across to splinters for the sake of it mean any of his blocks that could not possibly be hollow actually be so? unlike a ball that fails to damage the ground, has cracks on it and with the statue thing, would make more sense to be hollow.

Because it was fired out of a cannon, all your nitpicking aside. Are you really going to deny that an iron ball fired out of a cannon is a cannonball? I think you're missing the point with Raziel, which is strange because it's the same point you're trying to put on Bowser. "Oh, no [Bowser/Raziel] has shown less strength than normal, that means all of [Bowser/Raziel]'s feats are worthless and have to be flukes!"

Bowsers never tipped over stone, hes struggled against something arguably lighter.

Are you talking about the stone statue he actually moved, unlike Raziel only being able to tip it? Or possibly the iron balls he punches regularly that are still better feats. Or the stone statues he shatters by rolling into them?

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's completely different and doesn't cover what you seem to be saying. Getting hit with a sword that cuts you doesn't automatically make any other hit pierce you, nor does that apply to baseball bats. One hit won't make a punch kill you, or even do all that much different from a regular punch to a helpless oppenent.

Softening Kain up for a strike is just your fanon, there's nothing to support it. The wraith blade hit his stomach, Raziel hit him open palmed in the middle of his torso, there's pretty much no overlap between the hits.

Including being vulnerable to poison? I don't actually care if he's living or not, he still reacts and works like a living thing.

Because it was fired out of a cannon, all your nitpicking aside. Are you really going to deny that an iron ball fired out of a cannon is a cannonball? I think you're missing the point with Raziel, which is strange because it's the same point you're trying to put on Bowser. "Oh, no [Bowser/Raziel] has shown less strength than normal, that means all of [Bowser/Raziel]'s feats are worthless and have to be flukes!"

Are you talking about the stone statue he actually moved, unlike Raziel only being able to tip it? Or possibly the iron balls he punches regularly that are still better feats. Or the stone statues he shatters by rolling into them?

It doesnt just cut him though does it, it launches him into the air and he spits blood, Kain takes the wraithblade like I would take a baseball bat to the chest, doubled over and holding my chest in pain, youve missed something if youve not noticed Kain is not easily sliced.

Yes because the game showing everything I have just said makes it my fanon, nothing supports it and Kain going from being able to take Raziel at full strength with ease only to get impaled by a weak Raziel after getting smashed and weakened by the wraith blade was all just a coincidence! Stomach? what? lol....I hear a lot of funny stories, Kain holds his whole chest and body and yet you claim it only hits his stomach despite the size of the area he holds AND the size of the SR and Bloodrain I recall argued it cut his left pectoral. So much reaching from you guyz! lol.

He feels pain, thats about it and the poison is a whole unique and strange thing concerning vampires in general, being dead poison shouldnt technically affect them so clearly theres no comparison between it and that which affects humans.

No, I just understand how your trying to claim a double standard where there is none. I brought up a point thats true for Bowser yet you think just because Raziel does not use his full power on every door or opening he comes across it makes him equelly weak as the straining, shaking with effort Bowser.

Flipping something easily>moving it a few cm with great effort. "iron balls he punches regularly", I would like to actually see this.

Why is the fire topic being discussed? Either Kain still has his vampire weakness or he doesnt but still lacks any flame resistance feats. So whats the discussion?

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Unless you took a 4in cut spraying a pint of blood its not even close. Until you prove that the Blade made it so Raziel's later strike could pierce him via anything besides /IMO/ then it is just a cut that had no effect in aiding Blue's next strike.

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Originally posted by Burning thought-

Taking the pressure of Raziel divided by the pressure of a human with a knife shows us how many times Raziel's Pa is above this limit for him to penetrate an object that said knife wielding human cannot. For instance tough rocks or metal. This is to simulate Raziel not piercing Kain and Bowser's attempt to;

Raz claw tips Pa/Pa of an object a peak human cant penetrate with a knife = If he can stab it.

(1.87e6/ ((0.001^2)*2)) / (8e3/ 0.001^2)
= 9.35e11 / 8e9
= 116.875
Raziel's with 0.001m^2 tip SA ,Pa is 117x above objects that humans cant stab. Given how he climbs and attacks people in armour it makes sense.

Now the rest of the claw-body, Raz claws trying to stab 8.626mm;
(1.87e6/ ((pi*0.008626*0.004313)))/ (8e3/ 0.001^2)
= 7.999e9 / 8e9
= 0.999
The same thing you did for Bowser not getting a mm into Kain means Raziel wouldnt even be able to pierce 1cm into rocks/armour/ anything a human cant.
Either they both use the same method to get their SA or we use the above and be incorrect.

Out of interest I checked out what the figures would be with Bowser using '1mm cone';
(64,374,736.4/ ((pi*0.001*0.0005)*3))/ (1.87e6/ (0.001^2*2))
= 14.61

Even using a 1mm cone SA with Bowsers impossible wrong strength(where the time is 1s) Bowser is doing near 15x damage.

With the cones and 0.1s speed makes him 146x, with the actual speed he's 402x. Cone or no cone he's still far above that 1-10x skin limit needed to tear into Kain unless you have another way that the 1.77e9N Bowser wont be doing much more than a 1.87e6 Raziel.

Originally posted by Burning thought-
-
-

The cone calc above he's 140-400x, with tips he's 230-630x. Whats more interesting is that with your figure with a cone and with the wrong strength its 10x, the same difference as a lions bite to human flesh. Lion bite > Kitten scratch.

..In any act of physical contact the force is absorbed into the person. Also has nothing to do with the muscles needed to stop being crushed. Muscles = Crash force or else he couldnt support it at all. But despite how it has no relevance, feel free to find out Bowsers bio-stats then find a way to calc the force transferred. Your point, you brought it up, you think its needed, so prove it.

Mm, how foolish am I for using IRL facts to back my argument.. hilarious. Area will be the same as Raziels with an extra claw, nor more no less.

Originally posted by Burning thought-
-

1. How does 'same as you' sound like an answer? Guess the deflection means you cant. 2. "the question of the feat is correct due to the same feat in question" 'Bowser can kill Kain 'cause of the Iron Ball'.. you need to prove things to prove things. 3. Read above +watch again. 4. Wrong method ./and double standards. Yeah seeing as once again youve stated your opinion when I asked you to provide facts and evidence.

1. ^Done. With a real formula and game screens. 2. ^Done. With IRL bio reasons with no in-game mention to this. 3. ^Done. 4. ^Done, the basic tip area as with Raziel as per area of initial contact with SA of the whole body entering leading to faulty answers. See, you asked and I provide clacs with real formulas, in-game proof and IRL stats. Next time give some evidence instead of deflecting; "Again, your stateing it, not proving it." ~BT.

Originally posted by Burning thought-

They're weak to water.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It doesnt just cut him though does it, it launches him into the air and he spits blood, Kain takes the wraithblade like I would take a baseball bat to the chest, doubled over and holding my chest in pain, youve missed something if youve not noticed Kain is not easily sliced.

It launches him less than a meter, much less than Ganon knocked the Master Sword, even. Him spitting blood is just more evidence for him working like a living creature. Point is, getting hit doesn't reduce durability no matter how much you might want it to.

Yes because the game showing everything I have just said makes it my fanon, nothing supports it and Kain going from being able to take Raziel at full strength with ease only to get impaled by a weak Raziel after getting smashed and weakened by the wraith blade was all just a coincidence! Stomach? what? lol....I hear a lot of funny stories, Kain holds his whole chest and body and yet you claim it only hits his stomach despite the size of the area he holds AND the size of the SR and Bloodrain I recall argued it cut his left pectoral. So much reaching from you guyz! lol.

Strawman, I never implied any of that. Please don't put words in my mouth. I know I can't compete with CosmicComet, pu the screenshots he posted do show Kain holding a different area, as well as Kain bleeding from the lower left. So yes, Raziel did hit him in 2 different places, not that your durability reduction theory ever held water.

He feels pain, thats about it and the poison is a whole unique and strange thing concerning vampires in general, being dead poison shouldnt technically affect them so clearly theres no comparison between it and that which affects humans.

You're using your premise as your conclusion there, which is kind of a fallacy. You can't just claim the poison is different because Kain is dead while trying to claim that Kain wouldn't be affected because he's dead. Doesn't work. In reality, the poison indicates he functions like a living thing, though I forget what relevance this has to the fight. Something about Kain lacking regeneration so Raziel had to have healed him.

No, I just understand how your trying to claim a double standard where there is none. I brought up a point thats true for Bowser yet you think just because Raziel does not use his full power on every door or opening he comes across it makes him equelly weak as the straining, shaking with effort Bowser.

See, that's where you don't seem to get it. You're clinging to a low showing and claiming every other feat has to be lowered, but won't do the same for Raziel. It's quite clearly a double standard, especially when Raziel did struggle to open a door.

Flipping something easily>moving it a few cm with great effort. "iron balls he punches regularly", I would like to actually see this.

I've posted it several times now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YouAqdzj9eI#t=4m6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAETeT-gbXs#t=53s

Pretty often. They are smaller, but stuff like that can weigh hundreds of tons.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It launches him less than a meter, much less than Ganon knocked the Master Sword, even. Him spitting blood is just more evidence for him working like a living creature. Point is, getting hit doesn't reduce durability no matter how much you might want it to.

Strawman, I never implied any of that. Please don't put words in my mouth. I know I can't compete with CosmicComet, pu the screenshots he posted do show Kain holding a different area, as well as Kain bleeding from the lower left. So yes, Raziel did hit him in 2 different places, not that your durability reduction theory ever held water.

You're using your premise as your conclusion there, which is kind of a fallacy. You can't just claim the poison is different because Kain is dead while trying to claim that Kain wouldn't be affected because he's dead. Doesn't work. In reality, the poison indicates he functions like a living thing, though I forget what relevance this has to the fight. Something about Kain lacking regeneration so Raziel had to have healed him.

See, that's where you don't seem to get it. You're clinging to a low showing and claiming every other feat has to be lowered, but won't do the same for Raziel. It's quite clearly a double standard, especially when Raziel did struggle to open a door.

I've posted it several times now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YouAqdzj9eI#t=4m6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAETeT-gbXs#t=53s

Pretty often. They are smaller, but stuff like that can weigh hundreds of tons.

It still launches him though which is the point and grealty wounds him. And yes it does, if I bashed a plank of wood with a hammer and it cracked or splintered, and then a young child came in and finished the break once the wood is weak, thats not the child doing all the work...according to you, it is.

He hit him across his whole chest, otherwise why is Kain holding his whole chest, why is Kain stooped over if all hes got is damage to his left pectoral? or spitting blood, why would someone spit blood if his chest/stomach was unharmed? your changing your stories over and over....nobodies yet to prove that a wraith blade strike did nothing to Kain which would be against the scene.

Your claim was that Raziel "had to have" healed him, its yet to be founded and makes no sense, Raziel has no healing powers.

Did he? I see no struggling, only a slow kick that did little compared to a strong one that knocked the door off its hinges.

What? lol, hundreds of tons, are you kidding? its like you pick the biggest number, if I had your enthusiam with Raziels pillar i would be claiming it as a 2000 ton feat for sure. Also their small, smaller than bowser, may not even be made of iron so you made that one up and they get launched a meter or so ina second, which is just enough force to press the button in, it doesnt damage the wall or the button itself.

Is that Bowser struggling to punch the 2nd ball in that second vid? about 2/3 punches?

Also, as for Bloodrains post I seemed to have deleted my reply so ill settle with that was important, the force you belive required to damage skin. per square inch of skin it requires about;

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_force_is_needed_to_puncture_average_human_skin

461.7 PSi , pounds per square inch to pierce or 3.1 million. Your examples of lions and such is all good and well, but per tooth, on the mm scale thats little to nothing, a lions larger, more piercing teeth or indeed even a dogs are still tiny by comparison, they can create about the following pressure;

http://dogbitesinformationandstatistics.blogspot.com/2008/01/canine-bite-force.html

Most dogs were beneath 400 newtons so its not easily to attain which dogs can do what damage, but if I use the strongest figuire they have at 1394 Newtons that would mean a dog can create about;

1394 / 0.000001

1394000000 pascals of pressure. or about 430x human skin can take. And thats in a square inch, if i understand it correctly, if human skin can only take 3.1 mil pascals of pressure in a square inch, then how little can it take in the same area as the dogs tooth in my example?

I used the square mm because thats what weve been using for claw tips and thats close enough to a dogs tooth tip, obvioulsy some have larger teeth than others. Its no wonder, that a lion can chomp someones skin. Kain has roughply 92 million times the pressure resistance per square inch than a human has based on the above figuire.

And most dogs cannot make much of a mark on humans, its true they can pierce skin, especially larger, stronger dogs but not much by comparison.

So in conclusion, using real animal bites to claim Kains skin can take only so much is redundant, animals can bite far harder than human skin, and comparatively, Kains skin has taken vastly more than human skin could take, unless your saying Bowser has over 500x the pressure required to pierce Kains skin which is unfounded, hes not likely to do more than make small holes as I said. Let alone do any real damage.

And yes weve established they have a weakness to water, no more than my weakness to acid, if not nearly as severe thanks to a healing factor. Water cant actually fully dissolve a vampire even if left in it for centuries.

Whoops not ready.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It still launches him though which is the point and grealty wounds him. And yes it does, if I bashed a plank of wood with a hammer and it cracked or splintered, and then a young child came in and finished the break once the wood is weak, thats not the child doing all the work...according to you, it is.

It launches him barely a step back, that's pretty pathetic for a toss. No, a wooden plank is hardly comparable to a living or undead creature, try again. A small cut won't suddenly reduced durability everywhere else, especially when it hit a different area.

He hit him across his whole chest, otherwise why is Kain holding his whole chest, why is Kain stooped over if all hes got is damage to his left pectoral? or spitting blood, why would someone spit blood if his chest/stomach was unharmed? your changing your stories over and over....nobodies yet to prove that a wraith blade strike did nothing to Kain which would be against the scene.

Kain's not holding his whole chest, though. His hand is just huge, and covers, among other things, his lower chest and stomach area. Heck, look at the screenshots BloodRain provided, it's clearly not the same spot. When did I change my story? The wraith blade did hurt Kain, it just doesn't reduced his durability like you claim it does.

Your claim was that Raziel "had to have" healed him, its yet to be founded and makes no sense, Raziel has no healing powers.

Raziel healed Kain at the end of the game, remember? There's precedent for this, and wrks much better than Kain simply recovering instantly for no reason.

Did he? I see no struggling, only a slow kick that did little compared to a strong one that knocked the door off its hinges.

He nearly fell over after that first kick, and by physics really should have given that he was lighter. And when he does kick it, it goes a meter at best. Not very good for strength.

What? lol, hundreds of tons, are you kidding? its like you pick the biggest number, if I had your enthusiam with Raziels pillar i would be claiming it as a 2000 ton feat for sure. Also their small, smaller than bowser, may not even be made of iron so you made that one up and they get launched a meter or so ina second, which is just enough force to press the button in, it doesnt damage the wall or the button itself.

Actually, there are a bit larger than Bowser, the second six especially so. Though perhaps I did overestimate, as the fist ball comes out to around 78 tons, though he did punch it 4 or 5 meters in a second; remember that Bowser is more than 2 meters tall. The second ones are a little bigger, and I got a little over 99 tons. Oh well, he still punches them pretty quickly at 4-5 m/s. Oh, and don't forget that this is one arm compared to Raziel's two.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Also, as for Bloodrains post I seemed to have deleted my reply

Originally posted by Burning thought
force you belive required to damage skin. per square inch of skin it requires about;

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_force_is_needed_to_puncture_average_human_skin

461.7 PSi , pounds per square inch to pierce or 3.1 million. Your examples of lions and such is all good and well, but per tooth, on the mm scale thats little to nothing, a lions larger, more piercing teeth or indeed even a dogs are still tiny by comparison, they can create about the following pressure;

http://dogbitesinformationandstatistics.blogspot.com/2008/01/canine-bite-force.html

Most dogs were beneath 400 newtons so its not easily to attain which dogs can do what damage, but if I use the strongest figuire they have at 1394 Newtons that would mean a dog can create about;

1394 / 0.000001

1394000000 pascals of pressure. or about 430x human skin can take. And thats in a square inch, if i understand it correctly, if human skin can only take 3.1 mil pascals of pressure in a square inch, then how little can it take in the same area as the dogs tooth in my example?

I used the square mm because thats what weve been using for claw tips and thats close enough to a dogs tooth tip, obvioulsy some have larger teeth than others. Its no wonder, that a lion can chomp someones skin. Kain has roughply 92 million times the pressure resistance per square inch than a human has based on the above figuire.

And most dogs cannot make much of a mark on humans, its true they can pierce skin, especially larger, stronger dogs but not much by comparison.

So in conclusion, using real animal bites to claim Kains skin can take only so much is redundant, animals can bite far harder than human skin, and comparatively, Kains skin has taken vastly more than human skin could take, unless your saying Bowser has over 500x the pressure required to pierce Kains skin which is unfounded, hes not likely to do more than make small holes as I said. Let alone do any real damage.

The guy that wrote 450 psi didnt even post a source or reason, and the others link didnt show anything relevant. Human can bite through flesh without a max force bite. That means skin limit must around 100 psi. And if a human with a 150 psi can, and we can, bite through flesh that means all thats needed is 1.5x skins limit to start drawing blood.

Besides, what you said gives an average dog a bite of 202,182.606 psi... thats almost 1,400x that of a humans bite. Kinda impossible,. Most dogs cant even break through our femur which breaks at 2,000 psi. Dogs are not at the figures you gave.
Even weak guns are over 10,000 psi, and the strongest handguns being at 60,000 psi. Dog bite is not >3x> S&W M500 shot.

This is all thats needed:

Can a human chew through flesh? No.
= Over 70 psi needed.

Can a human bite through with a max bite? Yes.
= 150 psi needed.

Can a human bite through with less than max? Yes.
= Less than 150 psi needed.

Skin limit is about 100 psi. Skin limit can be overcome with 150 psi. Meaning 1.5x the limit and you can start drawing blood. A weak bullet can shoot right through a person at 10,000 psi. Only 100x skins limit and a (blunt) bullet can fly through a body.

As shown here with a cone area;
(1.77e9N/ ((pi*0.001*0.0005)*3))/ (1.87e6/ (0.001^2*2)) = 402x Raziel's Pa.
and here with a tip-point area;
(1.77e9N/ (0.001^2*3))/ (1.87e6/ (0.001^2*2)) = 631x Raziel's Pa.

Thats the ts the same as a human getting shot by [youtube=]the top two most powerful handguns ever made.[/youtube]

Originally posted by Burning thought
And yes weve established they have a weakness to water, no more than my weakness to acid, if not nearly as severe thanks to a healing factor. Water cant actually fully dissolve a vampire even if left in it for centuries.

I would still like your answer for the question posed about the wound Kain had for hours being healed instantly.