Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by BloodRain
The **** dude, the **** ;-; /shakes fist/

The guy that wrote 450 psi didnt even post a source or reason, and the others link didnt show anything relevant. Human can bite through flesh without a max force bite. That means skin limit must around 100 psi. And if a human with a 150 psi can, and we can, bite through flesh that means all thats needed is 1.5x skins limit to start drawing blood.

Besides, what you said gives an average dog a bite of 202,182.606 psi... thats almost 1,400x that of a humans bite. Kinda impossible,. Most dogs cant even break through our femur which breaks at 2,000 psi. Dogs are not at the figures you gave.
Even weak guns are over 10,000 psi, and the strongest handguns being at 60,000 psi. Dog bite is not >3x> S&W M500 shot.

This is all thats needed:

Can a human chew through flesh? No.
= Over 70 psi needed.

Can a human bite through with a max bite? Yes.
= 150 psi needed.

Can a human bite through with less than max? Yes.
= Less than 150 psi needed.

Skin limit is about 100 psi. Skin limit can be overcome with 150 psi. Meaning 1.5x the limit and you can start drawing blood. A weak bullet can shoot right through a person at 10,000 psi. Only 100x skins limit and a (blunt) bullet can fly through a body.

As shown here with a cone area;
(1.77e9N/ ((pi*0.001*0.0005)*3))/ (1.87e6/ (0.001^2*2)) = 402x Raziel's Pa.
and here with a tip-point area;
(1.77e9N/ (0.001^2*3))/ (1.87e6/ (0.001^2*2)) = 631x Raziel's Pa.

Thats the ts the same as a human getting shot by [youtube=]the top two most powerful handguns ever made.[/youtube]

It killed him and dissolved all of his flesh before he hit the bottom, 30 seconds at most. I dont even think our strongest corrosive acids could dissolve a body of flesh that fast.

I would still like your answer for the question posed about the wound Kain had for hours being healed instantly.

Not my fault, the forum sometimes seems to lag out and delete my replies.

🙄 your using base per square inch figuires though, you dont have the areas for human teeth or one or two of them. Many human teeth hit the skin before the others, canines for one and a human bite is hardly phenominal.

Thats not the average dog, thats their highest figuire. The average dog was below 200 but the average dog is not a bullpit or mastiff that can apprently prove a match for even lions in Roman arena fights.

Thats chewing through flesh, chewing is different to biting, we dont know Skins limit for any bite. And your source does not simply blandly state that skin limit is below anything or that any one bite is higher than another which some are. Further, as I said your using per square inch, nobodies teeth are a square inch in area....

Bullets can also get stuck in bodies though, hence why a bullet wound has to be checked for debris, they dont always go all the way through. Theres also the fact the bullet is also much smaller than a full square inch as well.

I dont know how your getting 30 seconds, Raziel describes it as almost an eternity, time ceased to exist. He made it clear it was a long time, not 30 seconds....the lake of the dead is fairly large and as I said, you cant dissolve vamps fully, Raziel wasnt fully dissolved.

What about it? thats not what were talking about, yes the wraith blade healed the final wound but how does that help you concerning the earlier fight?

Originally posted by The Scenario
It launches him barely a step back, that's pretty pathetic for a toss. No, a wooden plank is hardly comparable to a living or undead creature, try again. A small cut won't suddenly reduced durability everywhere else, especially when it hit a different area.

Kain's not holding his whole chest, though. His hand is just huge, and covers, among other things, his lower chest and stomach area. Heck, look at the screenshots BloodRain provided, it's clearly not the same spot. When did I change my story? The wraith blade did hurt Kain, it just doesn't reduced his durability like you claim it does.

Raziel healed Kain at the end of the game, remember? There's precedent for this, and wrks much better than Kain simply recovering instantly for no reason.

He nearly fell over after that first kick, and by physics really should have given that he was lighter. And when he does kick it, it goes a meter at best. Not very good for strength.

Actually, there are a bit larger than Bowser, the second six especially so. Though perhaps I did overestimate, as the fist ball comes out to around 78 tons, though he did punch it 4 or 5 meters in a second; remember that Bowser is more than 2 meters tall. The second ones are a little bigger, and I got a little over 99 tons. Oh well, he still punches them pretty quickly at 4-5 m/s. Oh, and don't forget that this is one arm compared to Raziel's two.

Wraith blade isnt really a physical blade is it, he was still knocked back though and he did not fall over. It is because both of them can take X amount of punishment before being damaged or killed, the comparison is legit.

"his hand is just huge so ill ignore the parts that are covering anything other than the area ime reaching for", It easily covers teh area where his heart is taken and the wraith blade is huge as well, its not a thin weapon, the energy itself is quite large.

Not true, the wraith blade imbued by the old balance guardians healed Kain, it seemed Raziels will to do so as well.

Now Raz is apprently nearly falling over? wtf....no hes not 🙄 also, the door itself is quite large and thick, we dont really have any gauge about how much force Raziel used, considering hes using one foot which has a larger area, the door is underl ess pressure than the obelisk whihc was only 300 tons itself.

Like I said, assuming a lot of things. Thats still inferior to Raziels strength and more importantly, its him using effort vs Raziel using none.

Yeah same here sometimes. Though backspace and refresh usually works for me.

your using base per square inch figuires though, you dont have the areas for human teeth or one or two of them. Many human teeth hit the skin before the others, canines for one and a human bite is hardly phenominal.

Thats not the average dog, thats their highest figuire. The average dog was below 200 but the average dog is not a bullpit or mastiff that can apprently prove a match for even lions in Roman arena fights.

Thats chewing through flesh, chewing is different to biting, we dont know Skins limit for any bite. And your source does not simply blandly state that skin limit is below anything or that any one bite is higher than another which some are. Further, as I said your using per square inch, nobodies teeth are a square inch in area....

Bullets can also get stuck in bodies though, hence why a bullet wound has to be checked for debris, they dont always go all the way through. Theres also the fact the bullet is also much smaller than a full square inch as well.

Youre missing vital mechanics to bullets getting stuck in someone. For the 10,000 psi thats the bullets force at point blank. The longer the distance the lower the force. Next, being an object of little mass and with no internal force [where a punch has internal force to keep driving on] impact on flesh, and especially bone, will further reduce the external force. Weak guns from a distance colliding with bone can get stuck in

Simple fact is a dogs bite psi can in no way be over 3 times the pressure of this.

Now look at it overall: A dogs bite can not be triple a .500 Magnum, and skin does break between chew and max bite pressure. Means that dog psi is not the 200,000 you gave it and skins limit tears and bleeds at 1.5x pressure.

I dont know how your getting 30 seconds, Raziel describes it as almost an eternity, time ceased to exist. He made it clear it was a long time, not 30 seconds....the lake of the dead is fairly large and as I said, you cant dissolve vamps fully, Raziel wasnt fully dissolved.

What about it? thats not what were talking about, yes the wraith blade healed the final wound but how does that help you concerning the earlier fight?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wraith blade isnt really a physical blade is it, he was still knocked back though and he did not fall over. It is because both of them can take X amount of punishment before being damaged or killed, the comparison is legit.

If it isn't physical it just hurts your position. To cause a physical wound it has t use physical force, anything else would just phase thrugh his or hurt something non-physical. Neither of those options reduces Kain's durability by the amount you claim. There is no X amount of punishment; it's all relative to the material and its durability or stamina. Wood doesn't behave like flesh.

"his hand is just huge so ill ignore the parts that are covering anything other than the area ime reaching for", It easily covers teh area where his heart is taken and the wraith blade is huge as well, its not a thin weapon, the energy itself is quite large.

If you actually look at the area where Kain's hand is, it's covering barely any part of his heart. It's his arm that's covering the heart, you think he'll just use his arm to hold the wound? His hand is actually farther along his chest. The Wraith Blade being thin just decreaes the area it hit, so it's even more unlikely it got near his heart.

Not true, the wraith blade imbued by the old balance guardians healed Kain, it seemed Raziels will to do so as well.

Except for the fact we saw Kain being healed before Raziel ripped his heart out. The fact this it invalidates the durability reduction theory is a bonus.

Now Raz is apprently nearly falling over? wtf....no hes not 🙄 also, the door itself is quite large and thick, we dont really have any gauge about how much force Raziel used, considering hes using one foot which has a larger area, the door is underl ess pressure than the obelisk whihc was only 300 tons itself.

He's standing on one leg and leaning back. He had to catch his balance after the kick, it shows that he was affected by the force he was using. The door is large, yes, and Raziel failing is still a failure f his strength. Otherwise you have no way of saying he used full strength against Kain and then the durability argument falls to pieces.

Like I said, assuming a lot of things. Thats still inferior to Raziels strength and more importantly, its him using effort vs Raziel using none.

Assuming what, specifically? Actually, that's Bowser using no effort and launching an iron ball farther and faster with one arm than Raziel can launch a stone block with two. See, Bowser using one hand makes it the better feat, especially since he used no effort to do it, despite you just arbitrarily deciding he did.

It easily covers teh area where his heart is taken and the wraith blade is huge as well, its not a thin weapon, the energy itself is quite large.

Originally posted by The Scenario
If it isn't physical it just hurts your position. To cause a physical wound it has t use physical force, anything else would just phase thrugh his or hurt something non-physical. Neither of those options reduces Kain's durability by the amount you claim. There is no X amount of punishment; it's all relative to the material and its durability or stamina. Wood doesn't behave like flesh.

If you actually look at the area where Kain's hand is, it's covering barely any part of his heart. It's his arm that's covering the heart, you think he'll just use his arm to hold the wound? His hand is actually farther along his chest. The Wraith Blade being thin just decreaes the area it hit, so it's even more unlikely it got near his heart.

Except for the fact we saw Kain being healed before Raziel ripped his heart out. The fact this it invalidates the durability reduction theory is a bonus.

He's standing on one leg and leaning back. He had to catch his balance after the kick, it shows that he was affected by the force he was using. The door is large, yes, and Raziel failing is still a failure f his strength. Otherwise you have no way of saying he used full strength against Kain and then the durability argument falls to pieces.

Assuming what, specifically? Actually, that's Bowser using no effort and launching an iron ball farther and faster with one arm than Raziel can launch a stone block with two. See, Bowser using one hand makes it the better feat, especially since he used no effort to do it, despite you just arbitrarily deciding he did.

And flesh, bone and organs do not behave like rubber, they dont just deform then revert to their original shape, it gets damaged, and further force makes it worse.

His whole arm, including most of his hand is still across his whole torso by nature of size, the fact he has his fingers further along doesnt actually change anything. Both scenes shown by BR just there show Kains hand covering the hole in his chest, just below the connector for his cloak.

Where? theres no wound at any point, so we dont see any healing.

Raziel weighs like half the weight of a human considering theres not much of him there, so pushing his foot against something at that angle may make you move back, it certainly would me. Erm yes I can because against Kain he is bloodlusted, you seem to struggle with "bloodlusted Raziel" or "full of ease" Raziel, I dont know why I would use hardly any strength when I am bloodlusted against someone than I would easily lifting a few boxes.....the same reason we know Bower struggles, he shakes and shows effort, Raziel does not.

The material in question, that again their solid, the way they move as well. Funny coming from you, "deciding", I have Bowser struggling yet ime the one suddenly deciding when your the one claiming just because Raziel counter balanced he is somehow weaker? wut?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah same here sometimes. Though backspace and refresh usually works for me.

The thing is, no matter what exact area you use its still going to be 1.5x difference. Fir instance if you used an area half that on the whole bite, then the chewing and max bite will both be 2x higher. Ie Chewing would be 140 psi, max would be 300 psi and skins limit would thus be 200 psi. Once again showing that 1.5x skins psi is whats still needed. A bite with less force is chewing. And it does prove it; If 70 psi cant tear skin but 150 psi can draw blood, the limit must be between these two. Besides, if you were to make the psi for the human bite higher for whatever area you want, then skins limit will be even higher, making the difference between it and your dog bite figure to be much smaller.

Youre missing vital mechanics to bullets getting stuck in someone. For the 10,000 psi thats the bullets force at point blank. The longer the distance the lower the force. Next, being an object of little mass and with no internal force [where a punch has internal force to keep driving on] impact on flesh, and especially bone, will further reduce the external force. Weak guns from a distance colliding with bone can get stuck in

Simple fact is a dogs bite psi can in no way be over [b]3 times the pressure of this.

Now look at it overall: A dogs bite can not be triple a .500 Magnum, and skin does break between chew and max bite pressure. Means that dog psi is not the 200,000 you gave it and skins limit tears and bleeds at 1.5x pressure.

He said an eternity passed, not that he spent an eternity falling. He may have been on the bottom for that long time but he was dead before he got there. Besides, he was falling at roughly 1.5m/s after the initial drop that auto adds around 5m. 30 seconds and that lake would be 50m deep. If he was falling for even an hour would mean the lake is 3.6km deep.. and its not just like acid. Being 'like acid' can be said about /any/ corrosive effect. Point is he was dead before he hit the bottom which didnt take that long.

Because now that we can confirm that when Raziel begins to be absorbed Kain is healed from wounds as large as a fist-sized hole in his chest, we can confirm that that was the reason Kain went from writhing and panting in pain from the Wraith Blades slash to perfectly find the moment Raziel started to be absorbed. Proves that the damage inflicted from the Wraith Blade was healed in that moment. This means that the Wraith Blade's slash had nothing to do with Raziel being able to shove his claw through Kain's chest. [/B]

But its not, pressure increases as SA decreases for an attack, but your pressure resistance does not increase the small you get, its actually less. So pressure goes up for a dogs tooth in its area, while a humans skin is very weak, like how a pin can pierce it easily but a punch cant.

Also thats what the source gave it, not me, although tbh your ignoring the fact a bullet is small and its energy does not stop so quickly, a dogs bite can only go so far because its teeth get larger the further up you go to the mouth top or bottom, a bullet on the other hand is tiny and sails right through. Hence why if a bullet with Bowsers pressure was fired it "may" get all the way through, bowser like the dog however cannot.

Also if you look at dog wounds, I would rather be shot then attacked by a mastiff tbh assuming neither were fatal of course or had long term disability, the visciousness of a dog wound can be clearly seen.

It still took so long he had more than enough time to think about it, its not like this is a worthwhile claim at all tbh, to actually keep a vamp dead, you would have to keep them in said water.

Your ignoring me on purpose? Did you read what I said? Raziel is not the wraith blade, and Raziel cannot be absorbed by Kain, only the blood reaver....theres no real comparison, theres also no reason to claim kain is "fine", other than he was not being bashed or buffeted.

And as for your comparisons in your caps, the first one has Kain with his whole arm over the area and where the wound will be, the second has just his hand. Why would someone stoop over like theyve been winded and hold their entire chest with their arm, steady themselves with their weapon if all that happened was a slight cut on his pectoral? tbh, i think your using the blood effects to try and claim theres a wound there when blood goes all over the screen after that.

Also ill prob reply to other threads tomorrow, ime tired now after work.

But its not, pressure increases as SA decreases for an attack, but your pressure resistance does not increase the small you get, its actually less. So pressure goes up for a dogs tooth in its area, while a humans skin is very weak, like how a pin can pierce it easily but a punch cant.

Eg: The SA used in the chew and bite calc makes the initial psi 10 times what it is, 700 for chewing and 1,500 for max biting. If, again, chewing can't pierce skin but max bite can draw blood.. that makes skins limit about 1,000 psi. 1,500/1,000=1.5x skins limit.

Not matter how you scale it, skins limit is going to be between chewing and max biting and is always going to be at the very most 1.5x is gonna be needed.

Also thats what the source gave it, not me, although tbh your ignoring the fact a bullet is small and its energy does not stop so quickly, a dogs bite can only go so far because its teeth get larger the further up you go to the mouth top or bottom, a bullet on the other hand is tiny and sails right through. Hence why if a bullet with Bowsers pressure was fired it "may" get all the way through, bowser like the dog however cannot.

Also if you look at dog wounds, I would rather be shot then attacked by a mastiff tbh assuming neither were fatal of course or had long term disability, the visciousness of a dog wound can be clearly seen.

Right now youre trying to say that the a dogs pressure, that has force only 4-5 times a humans force, can not only outclass the pressure of a bullet but also the most powerful handgun ever made.

It still took so long he had more than enough time to think about it, its not like this is a worthwhile claim at all tbh, to actually keep a vamp dead, you would have to keep them in said water.

Your ignoring me on purpose? Did you read what I said? Raziel is not the wraith blade, and Raziel cannot be absorbed by Kain, only the blood reaver....theres no real comparison, theres also no reason to claim kain is "fine", other than he was not being bashed or buffeted.

Now, did /you/ read what I wrote? It really doesn't matter who or what was absorbed, the fact is that the process, as we've admitted, heals him. The same process that was happening in their earlier conflict. So Kain /was/ healed in that scene, as was the Blades wound.

And as for your comparisons in your caps, the first one has Kain with his whole arm over the area and where the wound will be, the second has just his hand. Why would someone stoop over like theyve been winded and hold their entire chest with their arm, steady themselves with their weapon if all that happened was a slight cut on his pectoral? tbh, i think your using the blood effects to try and claim theres a wound there when blood goes all over the screen after that.

Also ill prob reply to other threads tomorrow, ime tired now after work.

Originally posted by BloodRain
I get what youre saying, but it has nothing to do with what I said.

Eg: The SA used in the chew and bite calc makes the initial psi 10 times what it is, 700 for chewing and 1,500 for max biting. If, again, chewing can't pierce skin but max bite can draw blood.. that makes skins limit about 1,000 psi. 1,500/1,000=1.5x skins limit.

Not matter how you scale it, skins limit is going to be between chewing and max biting and is always going to be at the very most 1.5x is gonna be needed.

The force they gave is right, the pressure you gave isnt. Actually, yes, the bullets energy does get taken down quickly due to its extremely light mass.

The only benefit a dog bite has over a bullet is that A) the dog has more teeth and B) that a dog doesnt stop after the initial impact and will keep thrashing around. Its the dog tearing the flesh that makes it deadly, its impact is still far below the weakest bullet. Like I said, dogs cant break a femur, bullets can and even through steel.

Right now youre trying to say that the a dogs pressure, that has force only 4-5 times a humans force, can not only outclass the pressure of a bullet but also the most powerful handgun ever made.

Not only was his thought-speech him talking about it, not at the time, but it also only took a 30 seconds for him to think it all over. 30 seconds may be whats needed to fully kill him, but even a brief moment was enough to make in agonize in pain.

..isnt that my line to your replies?

Now, did /you/ read what I wrote? It really doesn't matter who or what was absorbed, the fact is that the process, as we've admitted, heals him. The same process that was happening in their earlier conflict. So Kain /was/ healed in that scene, as was the Blades wound.

..The links below Scene's post, right? The second one clearly shows what Kain looks like when holding his heart with his hand, first pic shows that his hand is not over his heart. They would because the smallest cut on a person torso makes them curl inwards. I did the same when I was 10 and got a 3 inch tear just above my left hip. If a wound on the lower stomach can make a person winch over, so can a larger, deeper wound on the chest. Its not about damage or necessarily the area, its the pain. The blood only comes from the right side, the pics and vids show this.

Kay :I

Does your source say chewing cant pierce skin? I dont recall, also regardless of this. The surface area of a tooth would be doing thousands of times the pressure that skin can take in any situation yet still ony do a dog or human bite in damage, a human bite is at best capable of getting through the skin, maybe make small holes but thats it, a dog like a mastiff can at best take gouges out of someone but not rip through them like paper.

The pressure is calculated by force 🙄 and a bullet remains the same SA throughout its movement through a body, while the more of a tooth you put in, the larger teh SA becomes and the harder it is to enter.

Also, I like how your lack of understanding of the concept leads to you to question the source even though you dont have a better one. A bullet pierces humans, bone etc because its a tiny surface area, but a bullet makes a tiny wound all the way through your body, a dog can tear chunks into your face, hands etc but not through bone....what are you not understanding here?

I would be in agonizing pain if you poured acid on me.....

😆 but its NOT the same process, the process that healed Kain earlier was the imbued wraith blade being absorbed by Kain through Raziels will, in the scene your reaching for being a heal earlier, not only is the blade fully on Raziels arm by the end but was never imbued in the first place and Raziel does not even know he can heal Kain, he doesnt even try until the end.

His hands not really over anything in the first, as I said theres no wound, and as I said again blood is everywhere, it appears to come from kains mouth but his arm is still across his whole body, it covers the area where Raziel attacks later, with no physical wound on Kain visible theres only internal which means even more reason to belive it aided Raziels impact later. Also your reaching, show me any evidence to suggest somene would bend right over gasping just because theres a small cut on their chest? assuming there wasa cut....the only time ive doubled over like that is if someone hit me hard enough in the chest, a small cut? not at all....

Kains reaction, combined with what he admits earlier about it being the only weapon that can kill him sort of outlines that Kain has some fear of the weapon, on top of that Kain is in a massive state of weakness from the strike, nobody in their right mind would claim someone being hit again after that in the same area, or even within a few inches of the area which is the case even if you belive theres only a wound/damage on his right pectoral.

add in the fact we have FMV evidence to support kain can take Raz at full strength while hes at full strength without any harm and your case runs flat.

And they show the SR 2 FMV in the Defiance intro as well, so theyve not just forgotten it and weakened Kain so he can be pierced by a weak raziel all of a sudden. The motive and evidence is against you all because you think the Soul reaver/wraith blade does nothing to Kain apprently....

Originally posted by Burning thought
And flesh, bone and organs do not behave like rubber, they dont just deform then revert to their original shape, it gets damaged, and further force makes it worse.

Wasn't it you who kept going on about flesh having elasticity and absorbing force? In any case I never said anything even remotely like that, so not sure what you're even addressing there. Damage does not reduce durability to the point you are claiming it does, unless you feel like actually proving that getting a cut makes you thousands of times more vulnerable.

His whole arm, including most of his hand is still across his whole torso by nature of size, the fact he has his fingers further along doesnt actually change anything. Both scenes shown by BR just there show Kains hand covering the hole in his chest, just below the connector for his cloak.

Except for the part where he's holding a different spot. The best you have is that part of his huge hand is partially covering where he's later hit, but there is a massive difference between that and and actually holding a specific area.

Where? theres no wound at any point, so we dont see any healing.

Ok, you're saying Kain had no wound. Why, then, are you claiming that Kain's durability was lessened if there was no wound in the first place? Maybe it's just a communication issue, so I need to make sure: are you now claiming that the wraith blade did not damage Kain? Or that there was simply no physical wound? If the latter, there's again no possible way for Kain's durability to be reduced.

Raziel weighs like half the weight of a human considering theres not much of him there, so pushing his foot against something at that angle may make you move back, it certainly would me. Erm yes I can because against Kain he is bloodlusted, you seem to struggle with "bloodlusted Raziel" or "full of ease" Raziel, I dont know why I would use hardly any strength when I am bloodlusted against someone than I would easily lifting a few boxes.....the same reason we know Bower struggles, he shakes and shows effort, Raziel does not.

Yes, because that's physics, and it does show he's using effort because he's affected by it when he fails to budge the door. Well, again, there doesn't really seem to be much behind "bloodlusted" Raziel when he proceeds to just let Kain talk. The scene makes it abundantly clear that Raziel is not trying to kill Kain, entirely because Raziel at no point actually tries to kill Kain. It's stacked against him because by not using the wraith blade Raziel is holding back and not using his most lethal means available. Instead, he's using some halfhearted attacks that barely push the lightweight Kain back a step, which primarily indicates he isn't using much force. Further, note the context of the scene: Raziel attacks Kain immediately after asking a question, and then stops to let Kain answer. What does this look like? Well, I'm going to just say my opinion is that Raziel's tactics here (nonlethal, not much force, questioning) rather resemble some form of interrogation and a failed attempt at intimidation. Kain has answers that Raziel wants, and so Raziel tries to bully Kain into giving up the information with some threats. Raziel attacks Kain to show he means business without actually trying to harm him. The entire point of Soul Reaver is that Raziel doesn't know what the heck is going on and keeps confronting people for information. Almost right after this Raziel confronts Moebius and what does he do? The same thing: pinning him against a wall and threatening him for information. "Bloodlusted Raziel" seems content to just push people into walls and listen to them talk rather than actually try to kill them.

The material in question, that again their solid, the way they move as well. Funny coming from you, "deciding", I have Bowser struggling yet ime the one suddenly deciding when your the one claiming just because Raziel counter balanced he is somehow weaker? wut?

Funny that you never seem to question those assumptions when they're on your side. You just assume that blocks are granite and solid, same for the obelisk, and as such it's pretty hypocritical of you to nitpick the same thing. The balls Bowser punches are the same type as the Super Ultra Wonderful Great Iron Ball, being almost identical save for size. Again, there are no hollow cannonballs, or really any metal ball for that matter and there is no reason to think they would be. You have Bowser struggling where exactly? I really hope it isn't that bit where the player missed the hitbox, because that would be a rather desperate reach.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Wasn't it you who kept going on about flesh having elasticity and absorbing force? In any case I never said anything even remotely like that, so not sure what you're even addressing there. Damage does not reduce durability to the point you are claiming it does, unless you feel like actually proving that getting a cut makes you thousands of times more vulnerable.

Except for the part where he's holding a different spot. The best you have is that part of his huge hand is partially covering where he's later hit, but there is a massive difference between that and and actually holding a specific area.

Ok, you're saying Kain had no wound. Why, then, are you claiming that Kain's durability was lessened if there was no wound in the first place? Maybe it's just a communication issue, so I need to make sure: are you now claiming that the wraith blade did not damage Kain? Or that there was simply no physical wound? If the latter, there's again no possible way for Kain's durability to be reduced.

Yes, because that's physics, and it does show he's using effort because he's affected by it when he fails to budge the door. Well, again, there doesn't really seem to be much behind "bloodlusted" Raziel when he proceeds to just let Kain talk. The scene makes it abundantly clear that Raziel is not trying to kill Kain, entirely because Raziel at no point actually tries to kill Kain. It's stacked against him because by not using the wraith blade Raziel is holding back and not using his most lethal means available. Instead, he's using some halfhearted attacks that barely push the lightweight Kain back a step, which primarily indicates he isn't using much force. Further, note the context of the scene: Raziel attacks Kain immediately after asking a question, and then stops to let Kain answer. What does this look like? Well, I'm going to just say my opinion is that Raziel's tactics here (nonlethal, not much force, questioning) rather resemble some form of interrogation and a failed attempt at intimidation. Kain has answers that Raziel wants, and so Raziel tries to bully Kain into giving up the information with some threats. Raziel attacks Kain to show he means business without actually trying to harm him. The entire point of Soul Reaver is that Raziel doesn't know what the heck is going on and keeps confronting people for information. Almost right after this Raziel confronts Moebius and what does he do? [b]The same thing: pinning him against a wall and threatening him for information. "Bloodlusted Raziel" seems content to just push people into walls and listen to them talk rather than actually try to kill them.

Funny that you never seem to question those assumptions when they're on your side. You just assume that blocks are granite and solid, same for the obelisk, and as such it's pretty hypocritical of you to nitpick the same thing. The balls Bowser punches are the same type as the Super Ultra Wonderful Great Iron Ball, being almost identical save for size. Again, there are no hollow cannonballs, or really any metal ball for that matter and there is no reason to think they would be. You have Bowser struggling where exactly? I really hope it isn't that bit where the player missed the hitbox, because that would be a rather desperate reach. [/B]

Aye, but not like rubber. Getting a cut makes the general area of that cut more vulnerable, if I punched the cut you would be in pain, just like how getting slashed across the chest by a weapon with countless sorcerous enchantments and that succeeds in wounding where a previous hit did nothing at all would do even more.

Wheres the holding? your playing on the factor that Kains hand just happens to hover above certain areas at different times, hes still holding his whole body, and in the general area he was hit. Kain doesnt "hold" anything tbh in the second image and in the first, his whole chest is held. Answer me why would someone double over in agony, barely able to stand from what you assume to be nothing but a nick on their chest from a regular sword (you seem to be under this illusion for the wraith blade).

Because theres no wound we can see, your claiming your certain theres healing as if were looking at some sort of regeneration before our very eyes but we only see that at the very end of the game. Also, I am of the mind Kain was harmed internally, or at the very least, his chest is softer after such a strike.

😆 The only point where Raziel does not try to harm Kain is when hes just listening to Kain, thats nothing to do with the bloodlusted attack, where Raziel uses vastly more effort, even leaps into his attack to harm Kain instead of casually lifting something. Also, Raziel is of the mind Kain deserves to die, only Kain slowly makes Raziel realise theres more to this story than Raziel knows, however Raziels bloodlust comes through twice in the scene, and the scenes context is obvious that Kain is so far beyond Raziel that hes treating him like an angry child. Also if you know anything about Raziel or Kain, they both know "threats" have never been enough to achive anything, Raziels known Kain for a thousand years+, Raziel never attempts to slash Raziel in quick succession, nor goes into a bloodlusted rage on moebius, if he did Moebius would be dead, Kain shows thats not the case for him and he can tank it all with nothing so much asa dent.

So you have logic to suggest random balls are automatically made of iron? not tin, not stone....it has to be iron? You dont have the same footing to suggest anything. Bowser struggles against the statue and the "great iron ball" with obvious effort, although the "hitbox" thing I brought up out of irony before, its funny how you take that into account but not when Raziels default "wall push" animation plays before the cutscene in SR.....your bias and hypocrtical.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Aye, but not like rubber. Getting a cut makes the general area of that cut more vulnerable, if I punched the cut you would be in pain, just like how getting slashed across the chest by a weapon with countless sorcerous enchantments and that succeeds in wounding where a previous hit did nothing at all would do even more.

That doesn't account for the huge discrepancy in the amount of force or pressure. Really, if it's such a thin wound Raziel is hardly going to be striking it. To use a simile you seem to favor, it's like trying to shove a baseball bat through a kitten scratch. Raziel's claws are more spread out, he's using all three, and he even managed to get his flat palm through a wound that is apparently so thin you can't see it.

Wheres the holding? your playing on the factor that Kains hand just happens to hover above certain areas at different times, hes still holding his whole body, and in the general area he was hit. Kain doesnt "hold" anything tbh in the second image and in the first, his whole chest is held. Answer me why would someone double over in agony, barely able to stand from what you assume to be nothing but a nick on their chest from a regular sword (you seem to be under this illusion for the wraith blade).

Lower left pectoral/stomach-ish area. It's not really covering the spot where his heart is very well, and at no point was Kain bleeding from that specific area. And personally I think you're underestimating "a nick" from even a regular sword. It's not like the wraith blade is a normal sword, but you seem to be saying it barely left a physical wound, which wouldn't affect Kain's physical durability. If it did leave a physical wound, it's too small to have much impact on Kain's durability, especially if it's too small to be seen. If it's internal...I don't see how it didn't damage the skin, especially since we saw blood being drawn, and it would just prove that Kain's internals and much more vulnerable to damage.

Because theres no wound we can see, your claiming your certain theres healing as if were looking at some sort of regeneration before our very eyes but we only see that at the very end of the game. Also, I am of the mind Kain was harmed internally, or at the very least, his chest is softer after such a strike.

Again, Kain suddenly is not "doubled over in agony, barely able to stand" immediately after touching Raziel. And still, there was a spurt of blood when Kain was hit, he very obviously had a wound there. If it was internal, I just repeat that it just means Kain is far more vulnerable on the inside.

😆 The only point where Raziel does not try to harm Kain is when hes just listening to Kain, thats nothing to do with the bloodlusted attack, where Raziel uses vastly more effort, even leaps into his attack to harm Kain instead of casually lifting something. Also, Raziel is of the mind Kain deserves to die, only Kain slowly makes Raziel realise theres more to this story than Raziel knows, however Raziels bloodlust comes through twice in the scene, and the scenes context is obvious that Kain is so far beyond Raziel that hes treating him like an angry child. Also if you know anything about Raziel or Kain, they both know "threats" have never been enough to achive anything, Raziels known Kain for a thousand years+, Raziel never attempts to slash Raziel in quick succession, nor goes into a bloodlusted rage on moebius, if he did Moebius would be dead, Kain shows thats not the case for him and he can tank it all with nothing so much asa dent.

Raziel's listening to Kain the entire time, though. Immediately before and after his various attacks, Raziel stops to listen to what Kain has to say. His "bloodlust" is nothing more than idle threats, he knows by now that none of his brethren were vulnerable to claws. That clearly shows that Raziel is not trying to kill Kain, and again, if he was he'd be using the wraith blade. In fact, he only begins using the wraith blade after Kain has already left, and does try to use it on Moebius, so why not Kain? Either he's not trying to kill Kain at that point, or he was escalating attacks, and not using his best attacks first. In both cases Raziel is holding back. Raziel knows threats don't work? I suppose that why he threatens Moebius with death multiple times, and even says "I should kill you" before Moebius starts talking? Later in the game, Raziel threatens Kain with the Blood Reaver to get him to talk, there is obvious precedent for Raziel using threats to get what he wants.

So you have logic to suggest random balls are automatically made of iron? not tin, not stone....it has to be iron? You dont have the same footing to suggest anything. Bowser struggles against the statue and the "great iron ball" with obvious effort, although the "hitbox" thing I brought up out of irony before, its funny how you take that into account but not when Raziels default "wall push" animation plays before the cutscene in SR.....your bias and hypocrtical.

Yes, I actually do. They highly resemble the SUPER ULTRA WONDER ULTIMATE RUTHLESS GREAT IRON BALL, which obviously enough is made of iron. They are similar enough, and found in Bowser's castle (the same place as the SUWURGIB) to be reasonably made of iron. Or, I could go with historical precedent and use the most common material for bullets and cannonballs, which is lead or iron (16th-17th century cannonballs started to be made from either iron or lead.) Lead being a metal that is much heavier than iron, which makes the smaller ball weigh roughly 113 tons, as opposed to 78 with iron. The larger ones, 99 tons with iron, become 142 tons each. As for stone or tin, one look can tell you the balls is metal, and thus not stone, and again historical precedent shows the use of both iron and lead in cannonballs. Otherwise, yes, it has to be iron unless you have a metal that fits better. Why does Bowser struggling against the SUWURGIB matter? Superman might struggle towing a planet but he's still stronger than Raziel. Though, are you suggesting as well that Raziel struggling to push a door in cutscene is comparable to a hitbox mechanic? You're still missing the low showing point, too.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That doesn't account for the huge discrepancy in the amount of force or pressure. Really, if it's such a thin wound Raziel is hardly going to be striking it. To use a simile you seem to favor, it's like trying to shove a baseball bat through a kitten scratch. Raziel's claws are more spread out, he's using all three, and he even managed to get his flat palm through a wound that is apparently so thin you can't see it.

Lower left pectoral/stomach-ish area. It's not really covering the spot where his heart is very well, and at no point was Kain bleeding from that specific area. And personally I think you're underestimating "a nick" from even a regular sword. It's not like the wraith blade is a normal sword, but you seem to be saying it barely left a physical wound, which wouldn't affect Kain's physical durability. If it did leave a physical wound, it's too small to have much impact on Kain's durability, especially if it's too small to be seen. If it's internal...I don't see how it didn't damage the skin, especially since we saw blood being drawn, and it would just prove that Kain's internals and much more vulnerable to damage.

Again, Kain suddenly is not "doubled over in agony, barely able to stand" immediately after touching Raziel. And still, there was a spurt of blood when Kain was hit, he very obviously had a wound there. If it was internal, I just repeat that it just means Kain is far more vulnerable on the inside.

Raziel's listening to Kain the entire time, though. Immediately before and after his various attacks, Raziel stops to listen to what Kain has to say. His "bloodlust" is nothing more than idle threats, he knows by now that none of his brethren were vulnerable to claws. That clearly shows that Raziel is not trying to kill Kain, and again, if he was he'd be using the wraith blade. In fact, he only begins using the wraith blade after Kain has already left, and does try to use it on Moebius, so why not Kain? Either he's not trying to kill Kain at that point, or he was escalating attacks, and not using his best attacks first. In both cases Raziel is holding back. Raziel knows threats don't work? I suppose that why he threatens Moebius with death multiple times, and even says "I should kill you" before Moebius starts talking? Later in the game, Raziel threatens Kain with the Blood Reaver to get him to talk, there is obvious precedent for Raziel using threats to get what he wants.

Yes, I actually do. They highly resemble the SUPER ULTRA WONDER ULTIMATE RUTHLESS GREAT IRON BALL, which obviously enough is made of iron. They are similar enough, and found in Bowser's castle (the same place as the SUWURGIB) to be reasonably made of iron. Or, I could go with historical precedent and use the most common material for bullets and cannonballs, which is lead or iron (16th-17th century cannonballs started to be made from either iron or lead.) Lead being a metal that is much heavier than iron, which makes the smaller ball weigh roughly 113 tons, as opposed to 78 with iron. The larger ones, 99 tons with iron, become 142 tons each. As for stone or tin, one look can tell you the balls is metal, and thus not stone, and again historical precedent shows the use of both iron and lead in cannonballs. Otherwise, yes, it [b]has to be iron unless you have a metal that fits better. Why does Bowser struggling against the SUWURGIB matter? Superman might struggle towing a planet but he's still stronger than Raziel. Though, are you suggesting as well that Raziel struggling to push a door in cutscene is comparable to a hitbox mechanic? You're still missing the low showing point, too. [/B]

What discrepency? the force/pressure is created on w/e level the wraith blade works on in damaging Kain, its an energy blade. Well the fact is, the wound is not the only factor, if theres a wound on someones body, especially from a beating doctors dont just patch up the surface wound and ignore any deep impacts just because a cut seems small. If anything, small cuts, especially on the head can mean deep trauma.

It barely left a physical wound we can see, the fact kain holds his whole chest and doubles over means theres more than a small nick to worry about. Well deep organs are vulnerable to damage arent they...hence why someone punching you hard enough can cause brusing to inner organs, since Kain doesnt give a damn about his organs this doesnt matter unless you were weakening those areas to grab his heart, its no longer there ofc so its no use doing in a vs but its not like anyone has enough force to do that to kain yet.

He wasnt doubled over when Raziel lunged at him either, Kain stood up....

Hes not listening while hes attacking though, Kains words on the Sarafan or more, Raziels assumptions on kain at the time turn him to bloodlust, and Kain as the scene displays puts him in his place, theres no argument for you to say Raziel was not trying to hurt Kain despite the bloodlust, thats like saying Kratos was going easy on all the gods because he listened to them speak from time to time....well no, he was using his best physical attacks, the difference that you seem to ignore is that the wraith blade is so far beyond Raziels claws its laughable, theres a difference between the claws and wraith blade you dont understand it seems. I like hwo your interchanging moebius and Kain as if their the same person or even the same spiecies...wtf...

Well yes once he has the reaver in his hand, or more specifcally the soul reaver...the only weapon more powerful than the wraith blade, which is also known to harm Kain, who knows this as well. Kain thanks to the chronoplast chamber belives he is fated to die on that spot, which as the devs pointd out was never going to be the case, Raziel "always" tossed the sword aside and spared Kain.

"highly resemble", their just balls, the great iron ball is specfically stated as such and is enormous, theres two differences. Do you claim every ball in the game is automatically iron? It matters because we actually have a max limit where Bowser is barely lifting something, the point is that we dont have this for Raziel, therefore we have no struggle. Also that is a hitbox, the player in that scene missed it, the cutscene starts a second later, hence the black bars top and bottom of screen. Your so bias on this its funny, when I point out a hitbox for bowser you complain, yet you love trying to use a player missing a hitbox to open a door in SR to claim Raziel is weaker.... 🙄

Originally posted by Burning thought
Does your source say chewing cant pierce skin? I dont recall, also regardless of this. The surface area of a tooth would be doing thousands of times the pressure that skin can take in any situation yet still ony do a dog or human bite in damage, a human bite is at best capable of getting through the skin, maybe make small holes but thats it, a dog like a mastiff can at best take gouges out of someone but not rip through them like paper.

You really need a source to prove that chewing can break skin? Got skin? Got teeth? Take a few seconds and chew on your arm like youre shewing food and tell me if you start bleeding. Chewing cant break skin. Where are you getting a thousand from? No matter what you want the SA to be, the difference between chewing and max bite will /always/ be the same, and skins limit will /always/ be between these two. "The ear is particularly vulnerable to avulsion injuries because of its exposed position on the side of the head. The most common cause of these injuries is human bites(...)" Not that the amount of damage matters as the whole point is to find the minimum force needed to break the skin, 1.5x at the very most.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The pressure is calculated by force and a bullet remains the same SA throughout its movement through a body, while the more of a tooth you put in, the larger teh SA becomes and the harder it is to enter.

Also, I like how your lack of understanding of the concept leads to you to question the source even though you dont have a better one. A bullet pierces humans, bone etc because its a tiny surface area, but a bullet makes a tiny wound all the way through your body, a dog can tear chunks into your face, hands etc but not through bone....what are you not understanding here?

Once again, the pressure /you/ gave is wrong. When did I question the source? Im questioning you. A dog bite cant be over a thousand times the psi of a a humans bite or a magnum. Taking a look at the mechanics; The dogs bite is 1,394N, a humans is 720N. 2 times the force. The SA of a tooth is 0.000075m^2, you have the SA of a dogs tooth being 1/75th the size.. Since when was a dogs tooth 1mm^2 when its not even sharp? A dogs canine SA is at the very least 0.000025m^2. Twice the force and three times the area of a human bite. That means that no matter what, a dog will only be around 6x human pressure, so thats 9x skins limit. Dont even need the Pa figures anymore as we know the N and SA difference to humans, and thus know its difference to skins limit.

What I like is youre lack of reading making me repeat myself. Bullets dont have several points, bullets dont tear at the skin after impact, and these after effects have nothing to do with the initial impact where its far below a bullet.

If you think that the pressure of a dog is as high as the number you gave it, how come a dog cant penetrate things a bullet can? Ive only seen dogs at best fracture the skull, they cant even get to the 1,400 psi to break the skull yet you say a dog is at 202,183 psi, 144x the pressure needed to shatter the skull. If the dogs pressure is really the figures you gave a dog would be able to, as shown in that vid, easily puncture steel or have its teeth literally burst when it clenches its teeth. Neither happen because a dog cant get to that pressure.

Currently it stands as this; 1.5xlimit draws blood, 9xlimit creates strong dog-like damage... strange, back at that 1-10x mentioned already. So like I said, 10x skins limit will be tearing deep into flesh.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I would be in agonizing pain if you poured acid on me.....

The point is that A) him saying acid is purely wordings, nothing more and B) irl acid cant dissolve all of our flesh in 30 seconds.

Originally posted by Burning thought
but its NOT the same process, the process that healed Kain earlier was the imbued wraith blade being absorbed by Kain through Raziels will, in the scene your reaching for being a heal earlier, not only is the blade fully on Raziels arm by the end but was never imbued in the first place and Raziel does not even know he can heal Kain, he doesnt even try until the end.

Originally posted by Burning thought
His hands not really over anything in the first, as I said theres no wound, and as I said again blood is everywhere, it appears to come from kains mouth but his arm is still across his whole body, it covers the area where Raziel attacks later, with no physical wound on Kain visible theres only internal which means even more reason to belive it aided Raziels impact later. Also your reaching, show me any evidence to suggest somene would bend right over gasping just because theres a small cut on their chest? assuming there wasa cut....the only time ive doubled over like that is if someone hit me hard enough in the chest, a small cut? not at all....

Kains reaction, combined with what he admits earlier about it being the only weapon that can kill him sort of outlines that Kain has some fear of the weapon, on top of that Kain is in a massive state of weakness from the strike, nobody in their right mind would claim someone being hit again after that in the same area, or even within a few inches of the area which is the case even if you belive theres only a wound/damage on his right pectoral.

add in the fact we have FMV evidence to support kain can take Raz at full strength while hes at full strength without any harm and your case runs flat.

And they show the SR 2 FMV in the Defiance intro as well, so theyve not just forgotten it and weakened Kain so he can be pierced by a weak raziel all of a sudden. The motive and evidence is against you all because you think the Soul reaver/wraith blade does nothing to Kain apprently....

A weakness that was healed.

And in SR we have two scenes of Raziel hurting Kain and again in Defience, point?

Also in the same league as your 'Dante's slow cos a slow move tagged him' I could easily say that Raziel put no force into those strikes as his kick was only 2x peak human.

Thats where your wrong, damage does matter. If the dog in my example

lol, ime wrong? how am I wrong? ime citeing the source which points out the newtons, dont give me the whole "it cant be" complaint, go and prove your case rather than asking incredulous questions. Magnums "cant" tear out large gouges off a persons face or chunks of flesh like a dogs teeth either, it can make a small hole through the body.

Also your making BS figuires up again, spouting "9x" and "10x" , human skin can hardly take anything, the creaturues youve mentioned like lions and dogs create vastly more force than flesh can take. Also never heard of "dogs" eating bones? your acting like they cant damage bone....theres more surface area in a dogs mouth than the pressrure at the top of its teeth, obviously it needs to bring more of its jaw down to get hold of a bone.

Again as usual your up against a wall and have to ignore what I state. Where the hell did I say Raziel didnt know therefore it didnt happen? Razie, unless youve missed a lot of Lok did not even have the imbued wraith blade....your making up shit, the reaver draining raziel never has any connection to Kain.

It cant to Raziel either, where your getting "30" seconds from I dont know. Theres a transition between Raziel burning in the fire and him hitting the floor that covers hundreds if not thousands of years of Nosgoths time period.