Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by The Scenario

As for this, theres nothing new here so I will just agree to disagree, you can believe smashing stone is greater than x3 earth core and I will continue to acknowledge Kain can not only take any strike from Bowser with little damage but can kill him with little effort either physically or with any one of his handfull of powers. Good day to you sir.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Putting aside the blatant personal attacks, I'll point out that a human with a knife can produce pressure equal to 10% of the sun's core. That is, according to the guy who helped BT with his math, BloodRain. (Whose words I would put more faith in, personally.)

Actually it was like, "raziel is only 230x human pressure with a knife so its not impressive", you could say the same for a lot of things on that poor stretch of logic.

A human can run at about 13 mph, so clearly a jet that only goes 100x that is not much faster than a human! 😆

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
after looking at the math. alot of it i see as you, going over it. its not exactly founded. and theres alot of guess work and rounding numbers. but, i cant argue against it, or admit it correct without seeing the formula's used to measure them. mind giving a link to a scientific study or teaching site that provides the structure of those formulas?

and im wondering how a 25-30 foot spire becomes 300 tons. your math on the outcomes of that seems to be based on guesswork. (the assumption of its weight as applied to a type of stone, when you have no idea what type of mineral or alloy that spire was made from, not nessisarily the math itself) so that also needs clarification.

and what? the very first picture i sent you, of the chinese crossbow was a repeater design with an gravity-assisted auto-loader. its over 1,000 year old design. and spearguns dont auto-load. what are you talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yntRCxEWknY
loading a spear gun. not easy. and the guns themselves are HUGE. and those spears still arent as big as the ones used in soul reaver. those spears, raziel used as pole-arm type staffs for combat. they were longer than he was tall. so. via the superpower common sense, and the uber skill logic. its highly unlikly that your idea of the humans having spear-guns that fired those size spears is what happened. nor is it very reasonable or feasable in combat. its far more likly that the humans impaled those vampires in melee combat. and that the ranged weapons were crossbows. seeing as how they looked like crossbows. and fired short bolts at you. and not 6+foot long spears.

and it doesnt take much in ways of piercing to get into flesh. human skin is surprisingly strong against ripping and tearing. but incredibly weak to peircing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kgWelgRfM&feature=related
see that guy? notice how his skin isnt shredding due his (large) weight? its much easier to stab a hole in leather than it is to tear, too. you need ALOT of force to rip it in half. and hardly any to cut. its not outside the stretch of feasable and reasonable conclusions to say those vamps died by human HANDS.

oh, and the hulk has been in more games than kain. hes even got arcade titles under his belt. so hes open game to compare. and while im at it. if i really wanted to be an ass, i *could* suggest you guys watch more of those "lets play" clips. and tell me how bad raziel strains to pull and push open simple wooden doors in soul reaver. i scoff at it every time. and sometimes i giggle.

Ask the people in the thread, they tought me some of the math to some extent although I admit, I could not do it myself on my own.

You cant clarify everything in video games, only make the closest estimation, we choose granite for most materials we math because its a common building material for obleisks.

Its practically possible though unlike Vampires being impaled in melee combat, the only other alternative is that the humans used magic like they do all the time in the mythos.

Also this shows a lack of knowledge on how surface area works, theres no such thing as "resistance", theres just pressure, a smaller area creates more pressure, it just seems Raziel with his vast power in his claws cant slice up these vamps.

I scoff just same when Kratos does ye ole Titan masher cant lift a door, or when Dante takes minutes at a time to break living manakins made of wood, sometimes I even laugh out loud.

so.. the math is not checked to be true. and its really only thought to be true, by other people on the forum. kay.. i cant say that i can agree with it, then, or hold it in any capacity until its able to be taken as solid fact, and not conjecture.

and.. who says abellisks are usually made of granite? ands the real weight to size ratio of granite? (thats not an estimation by anyone)

and im sorry, but every time in game i slice at vamps with claws, blood flies out from their bodies. he can slice. he can slice well. and if im understanding your headmeats, the train of thought says that because raziel can express this kind of force which gets multiplies into a small area, he can bring that much power to bear whenever he wants. doesnt matter if hes not really that strong, its just the very tips of his claws providing that pressure. and not say.. his entire arm backing that force up. hmmn.. from the vids ive seen.. especially that cannonball one, i think bowser STILL has raziel beat in terms of strength. which means his claws would definantly put out much more pressure than raziel. which would still slice into kain.

the door, i dont get, either. the puppets are demons, and if you ever play dante must die mode, they have their own devil trigger, too.. meaning extra resistence to damage, and their own regen. its a *****. trust me. both are good examples, though.

Depends what your calling "checked", the people themselves check it obviously and they probably know more about the math than you do, theres no such thing as being checked more than that unless you can get an official mathsmatician to actually come on here and legit it, tbh

Granite is the most common building material, others have said the obelisk in this game looks more metal actually because its colour looks similiar to the metal elseware in the game, which would make it heavier. Point is, thats the closest estimation you can make.

He has him beat in terms of strength, I never argued against that but his surface area is from 50% to 100% more and to win, he has to do more damage to Kain than Raziel can do, which is zero so far for Raziel. If you look earlier in the thread, math states that even with the best possible figuires for Bowser, he only has 10x the pressure required to potentially break through 2mm of Kains skin, so not much more than a kitten scratch. Also I would like to see bowser hit Kain who can "phase" through weapons, teleport, turn into mist and even if damaged can regen vampirically and come back from ridiculous punishment/mortal wounds that "should" kill him.

Its gameplay mechnics all the same is the point, Kratos who is ridiculously strong struggles and strains to lift small gates, doors and even little chests among some things, he must also weaken many enemies far weaker than those he can canonically destroy with ease just to rip them up. I dont care if their demons, their featless so based on their common construction material which is wood theres no reason to belive they should be hard to damage although again, you miss the point, your using mechanics like how much damage something in-game can take, cutscenes are the only true source of how much damage someone may take. Everything else is based on gameplay enjoyment, if Kain just one hit punched or "walked" through every sarafan in Defiance and there were no combos at all, e.g. as much as 10 sword slashes on a sarafan knight it would be boring, as would DMC if it has no combos or need to use more than one weapon.

So your only belief that Bowser may win, is just because you think hes stronger? have you played LoK? because if you have, you would know Kains weakest stats are probably his physical ones.

As for this, theres nothing new here so I will just agree to disagree, you can believe smashing stone is greater than x3 earth core and I will continue to acknowledge Kain can not only take any strike from Bowser with little damage but can kill him with little effort either physically or with any one of his handfull of powers. Good day to you sir.

'k, so if we're just agreeing to stop for sanity's sake, I'll see if I can clarify my statement better. I am not saying that breaking stone is x3 sun core, at least not by itself. I am saying that Bowser has claws and spikes that would multiply the stone breaking force exactly the same way that Raziel's claws would. Bowser breaks stone with huge surface areas such as his belly, what do you think would happen when that is all focused on the tiny surface areas of the tips of his spikes or claws?

I'm also pointing out that, because Raziel has not displayed the ability to break stone with a surface area as small as his fist, he is not nearly as powerful as Bowser is. Basically, Bowser achieves more damage with a higher surface area than Raziel does with a lower surface area. Putting Bowser's strength behind Raziel's claws would tear Kain apart. Since Bowser's spikes and claws have surface areas similar to Raziel's, it would essentially be what would happen if Raziel was thousands of times stronger.

Does that make sense?

see.. you can measure raziels strength, and claim that thats what it took to injure kain. but ive yet to see kain shrug off any lesser blows. you're entire arguement about kains skin being so tough is the assumption that the force raziel put out is the limit to what can or cant hurt kain.

does kain have feats of duribility or skin resistence that backs this claim up? or are you using the cutscene from defiance where raziel punches into his chest and takes the heart of darkness?

which, im sorry, but i have to interject a third point between you and scen, and say you're both wrong about the heart. the heart of darkness is NOT kains heart. its janos aldruns heart. and unless it states somewhere in the canon that they took out kains previously existing heart to put in janos's, then he's still got his own heart in his chest.

so that feat of kain taking an eviceration and surviving isnt very good. kain got a fist tore into his chest that took out an organ that wasnt even his to begin with, and was telekenetically punted into a demon-type realm. which knocked him out bad. seeing as that heart was not even his, that means having a large hole put in his chest and esentially being thrown knocked him stone cold out. sorry guys. but i had a revelation about it at work, and its been bothering me the entire 2 hour drive home.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
see.. you can measure raziels strength, and claim that thats what it took to injure kain. but ive yet to see kain shrug off any lesser blows. you're entire arguement about kains skin being so tough is the assumption that the force raziel put out is the limit to what can or cant hurt kain.

does kain have feats of duribility or skin resistence that backs this claim up? or are you using the cutscene from defiance where raziel punches into his chest and takes the heart of darkness?

which, im sorry, but i have to interject a third point between you and scen, and say you're both wrong about the heart. the heart of darkness is NOT kains heart. its janos aldruns heart. and unless it states somewhere in the canon that they took out kains previously existing heart to put in janos's, then he's still got his own heart in his chest.

so that feat of kain taking an eviceration and surviving isnt very good. kain got a fist tore into his chest that took out an organ that wasnt even his to begin with, and was telekenetically punted into a demon-type realm. which knocked him out bad. seeing as that heart was not even his, that means having a large hole put in his chest and esentially being thrown knocked him stone cold out. sorry guys. but i had a revelation about it at work, and its been bothering me the entire 2 hour drive home.

Raziel did not injure Kain in that example, he did zero. So although you have a point, saying this is Kains limit is a joke, because he took zero damage from it, its how we do things on KMC, and I dont have the interest in trying to work out max tensile strength of his skin, if its even possible. Using the fact his top layer of skin takes no harm from Raziel, you could probably work out how much he has throughout all 2mm of his skin and then try and argue combined muscle, bone etc strength but it would be hard.

What do you mean? that is the feat, Soul reaver 2 intro, Raziel slashes Kains chest in an FMV cutscene. As for the cutscene in Defiance, thats the limit shown to Kains durability, he cant take being weakened, slashed by the wraith blade and then have Raziels claws stuck in. You could also argue Raziel was stronger then than when he was hitting Kain earlier.

The Heart of Darkness is the vessel that made Kain from a corpse, to a Vampire, necromantic magic animated Kain through the heart, as for his own heart, theres no evidence to suggest it does anything more than it did when Kain was cold in the ground, e.g. stopped beating, same with all of Kains organs, general conensus on LoK vampires as shown by only very specific attacks being effective against them and Magnus (probably other exaples but thats enough) prove that their typical organs are just parts of the bags of flesh they animate.

Its not as good as him at full strength taking a blow from Raziels claws but my argument was never that the wraith blade cannot harm or weaken Kain at all. The way your talking about the heart of darkness seems to be from a position of ignorance because its almost like you think it was just "stored" in kain and did nothing else...it was what revived him.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Stone is not hard to break, the pressure required to break stone is not high, therefore even magnified across X number of spikes does not really give it the same edge, not even close as his actual strength feat which is 6k tons+ iron ball.

Raziel has displayed better than breaking stone, as has bowser. You can crack, beak stone with very little force. Also weve seen the calcs for Bowsers iron ball feat which is far beyond stone on his claws on Kain, and at best he has 10x pressure 2mm in, thats not "tearing kain apart", thats causing him a nasty cut.

Also I think the max strength of stone, lets say marble as the example because its the strongest one in the "max tensile strength" wiki is only about 15 mega pascals, concrete even less, I dont know what Bowser broke but considering 15 million pascals is nothing compared to Raziels force across the surface area of a punch which is 1.4 billion pascals its pretty irrelevent. I think thats what it takes to bend a piece of it and break it from there though, so actually smashing it is easier but ive shown that even when launched by a weak TK blast he smashes stone anyway, their TK blasts unless you want to claim otherwise (I wouldnt mind) are far weaker than their obelisk moving force and even less is Raziels minute bodyweight accelerated to 3/4 meters/second.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
does kain have feats of duribility or skin resistence that backs this claim up? or are you using the cutscene from defiance where raziel punches into his chest and takes the heart of darkness?

I'm just going to say he does not. I've gone through all the games and Kain has no resistance feats at all, save fore the Raziel one, which as has been pointed out is inconsistent with Raziel tearing his heart out.

which, im sorry, but i have to interject a third point between you and scen, and say you're both wrong about the heart. the heart of darkness is NOT kains heart. its janos aldruns heart. and unless it states somewhere in the canon that they took out kains previously existing heart to put in janos's, then he's still got his own heart in his chest.

I'll concede to this, personally. It should also mean Kain's still vulnerable to poison, like he was in Blood Omen.

so that feat of kain taking an eviceration and surviving isnt very good. kain got a fist tore into his chest that took out an organ that wasnt even his to begin with, and was telekenetically punted into a demon-type realm. which knocked him out bad. seeing as that heart was not even his, that means having a large hole put in his chest and esentially being thrown knocked him stone cold out. sorry guys. but i had a revelation about it at work, and its been bothering me the entire 2 hour drive home.

I agree here, too. Raziel piercing Kain ruins any claim of Kain being invulnerable to such attacks. I've brought it up before, but BT claims that Raziel using the Wraith Blade somehow made Kain lose his durability.

Originally posted by Burning Thought
Raziel has displayed better than breaking stone, as has bowser. You can crack, beak stone with very little force. Also weve seen the calcs for Bowsers iron ball feat which is far beyond stone on his claws on Kain, and at best he has 10x pressure 2mm in, thats not "tearing kain apart", thats causing him a nasty cut.

10x the pressure that Kain's skin can take is still more than enough to pierce him, which would, in fact, tear Kain apart. Dunno how you could think otherwise. Not that Bowser needs to when he has fire.

Also I think the max strength of stone, lets say marble as the example because its the strongest one in the "max tensile strength" wiki is only about 15 mega pascals, concrete even less, I dont know what Bowser broke but considering 15 million pascals is nothing compared to Raziels force across the surface area of a punch which is 1.4 billion pascals its pretty irrelevent. I think thats what it takes to bend a piece of it and break it from there though, so actually smashing it is easier but ive shown that even when launched by a weak TK blast he smashes stone anyway, their TK blasts unless you want to claim otherwise (I wouldnt mind) are far weaker than their obelisk moving force and even less is Raziels minute bodyweight accelerated to 3/4 meters/second.

That isn't necessarily taking into account the amount of stone. Seriously, Raziel cracked a few inches and Bowser smashed through several meters completely. That's a huge difference I don't think you're accounting for, especially since you seem to be under the impression that Raziel getting tossed is a strength feat for him, because it really isn't. I'm not going to bother with mathing something like this, though, so keep milking it if you want.

Originally posted by The Scenario

10x the pressure that Kain's skin can take is still more than enough to pierce him, which would, in fact, tear Kain apart. Dunno how you could think otherwise. Not that Bowser needs to when he has fire.

That isn't necessarily taking into account the amount of stone. Seriously, Raziel cracked a few inches and Bowser smashed through several meters completely. That's a huge difference I don't think you're accounting for, especially since you seem to be under the impression that Raziel getting tossed is a strength feat for him, because it really isn't. I'm not going to bother with mathing something like this, though, so keep milking it if you want.

Raziel thats likely stronger than before piercing a weakened Kain after hitting him with the wraith blade is a unique context, and cannot counter an actual FMV showing Kain deflecting normal slashes.

Having 10x the pressure required to pierce 2mm into Kain does not mean anything more than a 2mm deep cut at the moment, as I said, a nasty cut, here you go just claiming random things against, hence why this is a waste of time.

Never said it was a strength feat, his weight accelerated to 3/4 meters a second is next to nothing, it goes without saying also show me what bowser himself smashed through without any aid other than his own two legs. Good luck proving stone smashing is equel to x3 earths core, 1x the earth core pressure is enough to keep an enormous ball of iron, stone and god knows what else suspended and crunched into a hunk, solid might I add despite the temperatures in there.

so wait.. you have a cutscene of kain deflecting slashes with his just his skin? oh do show, please.. maybe it will actually back up your claim about his duribility. and.. see.. what ive been claiming, and everything ive seen scenario claim, has been backed by cutscenes, and videos. the only thing you've backed up with any video proof, was raziels strength feat. which bowsers strength feat beats.

so if you're just going to say that we're making things up, when we have proof otherwise, and you dont.. well.. im just going to have to do nothing, because this is the internet. and you'll never admit to any part of your arguement being wrong. yay anonymity.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
so wait.. you have a cutscene of kain deflecting slashes with his just his skin? oh do show, please.. maybe it will actually back up your claim about his duribility. and.. see.. what ive been claiming, and everything ive seen scenario claim, has been backed by cutscenes, and videos. the only thing you've backed up with any video proof, was raziels strength feat. which bowsers strength feat beats.

so if you're just going to say that we're making things up, when we have proof otherwise, and you dont.. well.. im just going to have to do nothing, because this is the internet. and you'll never admit to any part of your arguement being wrong. yay anonymity.

Erm no, I backed the slashes on Kain with video evidence as well...also, thats mostly a lie because youve not provided any video evidence and I can use evidence scenario has posted to make my case, considering most of it is his claims on Bowsers fire heat and speeds.

Ill post the video again since apprently, when you read the thread you only read posts that were not mine apprently.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m8s

Kain takes 2 slashes, his skin does not even deform and seems to absorb most of the impact. You see the thing with the calcs "against" Kain and "for" Bowser assume that Raziels impacts here are his max durability despite taking it without any harm, further it assumes his top layer of skin which takes all the damage is equel to his entire skin. On top of this, my opposition think penetrating the skin is enough to claim Kain gets torn apart when the muscle, bone and sinews underneath are vastly more durable than skin is. Thats just the basics, when we get into the fact Bowsers momentum would fail at the skin, slow him down once hes made his small cut and that he is lucky to even make this strike due to kains abilities to avoid it the whole argument has been for waste.

You dont have any more proof than I do, infact the math backs up kain taking the slash with minimal damage and based on discussions I am having at the moment, the pressures Kain has taken "should" be breaking the eletrical chemistry in his physical body, meaning he has some crazy physical durability on a chemical level as well, but I am discussing this out of KMC for the moment.

uhm.. i watched that vid alot. why is it that those strikes make a punching sound? O_o.. similar to the sound of when he kicks kain, and the impact of kain hitting the wall. looks to me like kain got punched twice, and kicked. but his claws are open. which can suggest slash. or slap. or open palmed strike. but, because his hands are open, ill give you kain was not harmed by raziels claws. HOWEVER!

retcon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENosWOAWUgo
O_o..thats what i remember. and look how weak he is. after only 3 hits. alot of the soul reaver storyline actually creates alot of paradoxes. such as kain himself facing off against raziel at the final boss to.. was it blood omen or blood omen 2? i think blood omen.. and then in defiance its raziel who kills his own sarafan self. so.. the legacy of kian series isnt exactly concrete in terms of what happened, is it? so you could say kain got slashed, or punched, or you could say he was struck by the soul reaver.

Raziel thats likely stronger than before piercing a weakened Kain after hitting him with the wraith blade is a unique context, and cannot counter an actual FMV showing Kain deflecting normal slashes.

Actually, Kain was absorbing Raziel there, so Raziel would have been much weaker, if anything, and since Kain was the one doing the absorbing he was the one that was stronger than usual. Plus, being a later cutscene it should take precedence.

Having 10x the pressure required to pierce 2mm into Kain does not mean anything more than a 2mm deep cut at the moment, as I said, a nasty cut, here you go just claiming random things against, hence why this is a waste of time.

Remind me where the "2mm" BS is coming from. As I recall, BloodRain proved that having 5x the required pressure can cut much deeper than that.

also show me what bowser himself smashed through without any aid other than his own two legs.

I have done this so many times. There is literally a link on the last page showing exactly this. You have quoted this link in one of your posts. You baffle me, sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=1m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=3m26s

1x the earth core pressure is enough to keep an enormous ball of iron, stone and god knows what else suspended and crunched into a hunk, solid might I add despite the temperatures in there.

And a guy with a knife produces pressure equal to 10% of that. So someone with 10x human strength could match it. Not nearly as impressive as you think it is.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Actually, Kain was absorbing Raziel there, so Raziel would have been much weaker, if anything, and since Kain was the one doing the absorbing he was the one that was stronger than usual. Plus, being a later cutscene it should take precedence.

Remind me where the "2mm" BS is coming from. As I recall, BloodRain proved that having 5x the required pressure can cut much deeper than that.

I have done this so many times. There is literally a link on the last page showing exactly this. You have quoted this link in one of your posts. You baffle me, sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=1m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=3m26s

And a guy with a knife produces pressure equal to 10% of that. So someone with 10x human strength could match it. Not nearly as impressive as you think it is.

Your unfound claims and extrapolations are disproven by the source material, Kain is so weak there that he can get impaled by an attack he tanked without damage not long ago while Raziel? theres no indication of weakness more than him being tired or drained, hes not actually been shown to be hit, certainly not by a weapon as powerful as the wraith blade. Also, Kain cant absorb anyone. And its not an FMV and its a unique context, I am sure I could if I knew the verse take a Bowser example of where he was weak and defeated and use it to counter the iron ball thing better than your doing here.

2mm is the thickness of skin, the calcluation we did earlier proves that he only has 10x the pressure to penetrate Kains skin in this area. Also if you can find his proof, quote it please if you want to use it.

In the first one hethe "stone", w/e it is, looks like concrete has little to no anchor meaning the center of itis not held by anything. Kids doing Karate do the same in a sense with boards of wood or sometimes even stone, if you smack the middle hard enough it will crack and fall....

The second feat is even worse, he smashes the wood in exactly the same way he does the stone slabs, its not one solid square meter, the first feat was arguably better, still vastly inferior to the iron ball. Hes also jumping on it, so we can extrapolate how strong the material is and how much pressure it takes to break by calculating bowsers weight and dividing it over his feat to get the pressure, very little.

I remember when I made this line of thought look really foolish by pointing out that by that logic that Jet speed is unimpressive because its only 100x more than a human running....

Also I think youve got the figuires mixed up, I suggest you look back a bit. And how can someone with 10x human strength match Raziel when Raziel himself is hundreds of times a human in strength? Your not making any sense. Also our calcluations there unless you had forgotten was not just a regular joe but an Olmypic champion and further if I am not mistaken this was only for a quick toss, Raziel pushes the obelisk up and holds it on him for a second or so, no human can take more than a ton or so, let alone 300.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your unfound claims and extrapolations are disproven by the source material, Kain is so weak there that he can get impaled by an attack he tanked without damage not long ago while Raziel? theres no indication of weakness more than him being tired or drained, hes not actually been shown to be hit, certainly not by a weapon as powerful as the wraith blade. Also, Kain cant absorb anyone. And its not an FMV and its a unique context, I am sure I could if I knew the verse take a Bowser example of where he was weak and defeated and use it to counter the iron ball thing better than your doing here.

kain, touching the physical reaver sword, was obsorbing raziel's spiritual essence into the sword. both strengthing kain via conduit, and weakening raziel via drain. that was kind of the whole point of defiance, was that kain wanted to avoid fighting raziel with the reaver, as it would absorb him. it even heals kains impalement injury.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUx-b1zaYtw&feature=related
see? thats what would have happened if raziel hadnt punted kain off of him.

oh, and more freakin retcons.
in the beginning of blood omen, kains revived as a vampire by mortanius. and the heart of darkness is not an organ in his chest, but an in-game mechanic for healing. the devs dont have a solid chronological storyline. lots of retcons, lots of paradoxes. plus, theres also the cutscene of the ending of soul reaver one, compared to the ending of soul reaver 2. one has kain taking only 3 hits, and having his arm dangling, useless, and his leg limping and him dragging it slowly. to raziel pouncing, punch/slashing and kicking kain, and thats the end of the fight. its kind of hard to judge exactly where kain is in terms of power and durability, without a solid canon to go by.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
kain, touching the physical reaver sword, was obsorbing raziel's spiritual essence into the sword. both strengthing kain via conduit, and weakening raziel via drain. that was kind of the whole point of defiance, was that kain wanted to avoid fighting razier with the reaver, as it would absorb him. it even heals kains impalement injury.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUx-b1zaYtw&feature=related
see? thats what would have happened if raziel hadnt punted kain off of him.

oh, and more freakin retcons.
in the beginning of blood omen, kains revived as a vampire by mortanius. and the heart of darkness is not an organ in his chest, but an in-game mechanic for healing. the devs dont have a solid chronological storyline. lots of retcons, lots of paradoxes. plus, theres also the cutscene of the ending of soul reaver one, compared to the ending of soul reaver 2. one has kain taking only 3 hits, and having his arm dangling, useless, and his leg limping and him dragging it slowly. to razier pouncing, punch/slashing and kicking kain, and thats the end of the fight. its kind of hard to judge exactly where kain is in terms of power and durability, without a solid canon to go by.

Theres no indication of it strengthening Kain and the whole point of defiance was trying to avoid the same turn of events which of course they could not, then the point was restoring Kain to scion of balance status which required him to have all his soul whole and purified hence why at the end of the game he absorbed the wraith blade itself.

Thats impossible, if Raziel hadnt punted Kain, Raziel would simply have been imprisoned within the sword.

Its always been in his chest, the in-game mechanic was there however but as I said before, we never used gameplay mechanics so this one in particular is irrelevent. Well this is a solid canon, SR 2 retcons SR 1, its as simple as that, thats probably the only real thing they changed, they made Kain from weak, to far stronger than before and even made a point of it by showing Kain taking some godlike damage.

hes the most durable conventional KMC character in games vs.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your unfound claims and extrapolations are disproven by the source material, Kain is so weak there that he can get impaled by an attack he tanked without damage not long ago while Raziel? theres no indication of weakness more than him being tired or drained, hes not actually been shown to be hit, certainly not by a weapon as powerful as the wraith blade. Also, Kain cant absorb anyone. And its not an FMV and its a unique context, I am sure I could if I knew the verse take a Bowser example of where he was weak and defeated and use it to counter the iron ball thing better than your doing here.

Except for the fact that Raziel has harmed Kain twice in canon, it's more consistent than the one time Raziel was unable to. We both have the canon on our side, it's just that I have 2 instances to your 1 single instance. Especially since you're in the same boat with Kain tanking an attack that has harmed him not long ago. So really, the one time Raziel failed to harm Kain is the outlier here. We've seen that Kain can be healed while absorbing Raziel and the Wraith Blade, which indicates he's not weakened as you think he is. For reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LulD2kar9I#t=3m50s

2mm is the thickness of skin, the calcluation we did earlier proves that he only has 10x the pressure to penetrate Kains skin in this area. Also if you can find his proof, quote it please if you want to use it.

If we've established that Bowser can pierce Kain's durability, that should be the end of it. Bowser can hurt him; there, done, nothing more needs to be said. Here's your BloodRain quote, then:

A thick claw can penetrate 4cm into the body without much force behind it. 500 psi is a fai estimation as its a light, small animal where something like a lions bite would be at 1,000 psi. Eh, may as well use that too; A lions tooth is not sharp, has an increasing body and bites at 1,000 psi at the highest. We know that a lion can deeply pierce and tear a person apart with its teeth, teeth only 10x our skins limit. Wait, why even go to something like a lion? Dogs can make deep wounds with their teeth while only producing 200-400 psi. Only 2-4x and it can the whole tooth in. These are real life examples proving that even 2x skins limit is enough to puncture the body, much more then 'only 2mm'.

Bowser has 10x the pressure needed to pierce Kain, so he'd be going pretty deep.

In the first one hethe "stone", w/e it is, looks like concrete has little to no anchor meaning the center of itis not held by anything. Kids doing Karate do the same in a sense with boards of wood or sometimes even stone, if you smack the middle hard enough it will crack and fall....

The second feat is even worse, he smashes the wood in exactly the same way he does the stone slabs, its not one solid square meter, the first feat was arguably better, still vastly inferior to the iron ball. Hes also jumping on it, so we can extrapolate how strong the material is and how much pressure it takes to break by calculating bowsers weight and dividing it over his feat to get the pressure, very little.

Enough downplaying, please. Bowser shattered roughly 6-8 meters of stone on that first one, all of which were supported by the walls and did not "crack and fall" as you put it. By the way, I'd love to see the kids breaking concrete, sounds interesting. For the second one, I'm not sure you were paying attention; did you miss the 10+ meters of stone blocks or something? Now, if you remember, Bowser can impart even more force than this in his ball form, and it's also covered in spikes (thus more pressure than his huge belly) and on fire (thus burning Kain, too.)

I remember when I made this line of thought look really foolish by pointing out that by that logic that Jet speed is unimpressive because its only 100x more than a human running....

Also I think youve got the figuires mixed up, I suggest you look back a bit. And how can someone with 10x human strength match Raziel when Raziel himself is hundreds of times a human in strength? Your not making any sense. Also our calcluations there unless you had forgotten was not just a regular joe but an Olmypic champion and further if I am not mistaken this was only for a quick toss, Raziel pushes the obelisk up and holds it on him for a second or so, no human can take more than a ton or so, let alone 300. [/B]

The guy with the knife is going to have only one point to focus the pressure on, Raziel has three, so it's divided further. Doesn't really change the fact that "sun core" doesn't actually mean anything, and your extrapolations are pretty much worthless. Like Kain surviving a nuke.

As I recall, all you can really use is Kain getting hit by a claw attack from a Class 30. Even that's questionable, though, since Raziel has hurt Kain before, twice. So Bowser hitting him with more Class 50-60 claw or spike attacks would ruin him, not to mention all the fire.

hes the most durable conventional KMC character in games vs.

Nope. I'd give that to Samus, personally, if by conventional you mean used on KMC frequently. Possibly Kratos, too, but I don't know much about him.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Except for the fact that Raziel has harmed Kain twice in canon, it's more consistent than the one time Raziel was unable to. We both have the canon on our side, it's just that I have 2 instances to your 1 single instance. Especially since you're in the same boat with Kain tanking an attack that has harmed him not long ago. So really, the one time Raziel failed to harm Kain is the outlier here. We've seen that Kain can be healed while absorbing Raziel and the Wraith Blade, which indicates he's not weakened as you think he is. For reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LulD2kar9I#t=3m50s

If we've established that Bowser can pierce Kain's durability, that should be the end of it. Bowser can hurt him; there, done, nothing more needs to be said. Here's your BloodRain quote, then:

Bowser has 10x the pressure needed to pierce Kain, so he'd be going pretty deep.

Enough downplaying, please. Bowser shattered roughly 6-8 meters of stone on that first one, all of which were supported by the walls and did not "crack and fall" as you put it. By the way, I'd love to see the kids breaking concrete, sounds interesting. For the second one, I'm not sure you were paying attention; did you miss the 10+ meters of stone blocks or something? Now, if you remember, Bowser can impart even more force than this in his ball form, and it's also covered in spikes (thus more pressure than his huge belly) and on fire (thus burning Kain, too.)

The guy with the knife is going to have only one point to focus the pressure on, Raziel has three, so it's divided further. Doesn't really change the fact that "sun core" doesn't actually mean anything, and your extrapolations are pretty much worthless. Like Kain surviving a nuke.

As I recall, all you can really use is Kain getting hit by a claw attack from a Class 30. Even that's questionable, though, since Raziel has hurt Kain before, twice. So Bowser hitting him with more Class 50-60 claw or spike attacks would ruin him, not to mention all the fire.

Nope. I'd give that to Samus, personally, if by conventional you mean used on KMC frequently. Possibly Kratos, too, but I don't know much about him.

"harmed" is a loose term, harming him is useless unless you mean caused physical damage to an extent thats worth mentioning which means if your trying to use the old Soul reaver 1 durability which is canonically retconned in SR 2 despite the source itself being poor (we see no damage) then you have 1 instance, Defiance which is not to be counted for the fact the context is vastly different. And no, weve not seen that, the only thing in the entire series we know that can heal Kain is him drinking blood, maybe a spell or so and the completed wraith blade complete with spirits of the old balance guardians.

No, if he can pierce a few millimeters in then thats all you have, why would a few millimeters be the end of anything?

Is that the best you have from old bloodrain, his evidence seems to have gone walkies unless the picture of a lions claw is supposed to be the evidence?

He has 10x the pressure to pierce the top skin layer, as for deep. Thats yet to be proven because hes going to lose speed massively by then, Kains skin can absorb far more than human skin as well, and then Bowsers going to hit bone and muscle combined, which is far stronger than skin.

It was barely supported at all, the walls if you did not notice are made of dirt or mud.

Well it does mean something, it means across a square meter of his body he can take 10x the suns core pressure, thats what it means. I tell you what doesnt mean anything, comparing it to 100x-200x or w/e human strength although that was earth core we were comparing there so read up on your source. Also look up nukes, they have less pressure than the core of the sun and on top of that, Comic forum does not use calcs at all although nice baiting.

It wouldnt do anything, it would cut 2mm deep then hit bone and Bowser would feel the counter pressure go up his arm and fall flat.

😆 Samus is one thing I would listen to but the fact you said "give it to kratos" then admitted you know nothing about him speaks volumes about your bias and how worthless some of your statements are, although I knew that already mr baiter.

Originally posted by Burning thought
"harmed" is a loose term, harming him is useless unless you mean caused physical damage to an extent thats worth mentioning which means if your trying to use the old Soul reaver 1 durability which is canonically retconned in SR 2 despite the source itself being poor (we see no damage) then you have 1 instance, Defiance which is not to be counted for the fact the context is vastly different. And no, weve not seen that, the only thing in the entire series we know that can heal Kain is him drinking blood, maybe a spell or so and the completed wraith blade complete with spirits of the old balance guardians.

That scene wasn't retconned, though. The only part of Soul Reaver retconned by Soul Reaver 2 is how the Time Streamer fight went, which is inconsistent with Kain's other durability showings. Raziel still hurt Kain in cutscene before that, as well as after. We know that Kain can be healed by contact with Raziel, though, from here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zjmJLQohc#t=6m1s

"And the Scion of Balance is healed." It's even got the same effect from Avernus, so the context actually isn't really that different.

No, if he can pierce a few millimeters in then thats all you have, why would a few millimeters be the end of anything?

Is that the best you have from old bloodrain, his evidence seems to have gone walkies unless the picture of a lions claw is supposed to be the evidence?

I don't see any reason for Bowser to stop at a few millimeters, personally, when something with 5x the durability of human skin can pierce farther than that.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2005/10/21/1485565.htm

A weak raptor can pierce 30-40 millimeters, that's much more than "a few."

He has 10x the pressure to pierce the top skin layer, as for deep. Thats yet to be proven because hes going to lose speed massively by then, Kains skin can absorb far more than human skin as well, and then Bowsers going to hit bone and muscle combined, which is far stronger than skin.

Can you prove that one? How do you know that Kain's muscle and bone is stronger than his skin, for example? If we're using human scaling, 10x would still be enough to beat that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJqKYFZw5z8

A lion can bite with 600 psi, still pierces flesh and breaks bones with teeth duller than Bowser's claws/spikes. That's 6x human flesh durability, BTW. Based on this, Bowser wouldn't have a problem hurting Kain badly, especially if he's on fire or using magic.

It was barely supported at all, the walls if you did not notice are made of dirt or mud.

This changes what? Please tell me what effect that would have on the feat and provide evidence for it, like that "kids breaking concrete" you claimed.

Well it does mean something, it means across a square meter of his body he can take 10x the suns core pressure, thats what it means. I tell you what doesnt mean anything, comparing it to 100x-200x or w/e human strength although that was earth core we were comparing there so read up on your source. Also look up nukes, they have less pressure than the core of the sun and on top of that, Comic forum does not use calcs at all although nice baiting.

It's just your extrapolations that don't really work, though, since it's mostly nonsense. Why don't you just prove that taking a claw is the same as sitting in a star? Not that Kain tanking a claw is at all consistent, but hey, I'd like to see how they're comparable, personally. (Baiting is going to become your new buzzword, isn't it?)

It wouldnt do anything, it would cut 2mm deep then hit bone and Bowser would feel the counter pressure go up his arm and fall flat.

Right now it's looking closer to 40 and breaking some bones, while the rest of the flaming spikeball that is Bowser crushes Kain.

😆 Samus is one thing I would listen to but the fact you said "give it to kratos" then admitted you know nothing about him speaks volumes about your bias and how worthless some of your statements are, although I knew that already mr baiter.

That's weird, since I never actually typed "give it to kratos" before this moment, so I don't know who you're quoting there. I just said "possibly Kratos" based on the threads I've read and feats I've seen. I honestly didn't think it'd make you this angry, it was an offhand comment. The real point was Samus, Kratos was an afterthought. (Seriously, you're seeing bait where none exists.)

Originally posted by The Scenario
That scene wasn't retconned, though. The only part of Soul Reaver retconned by Soul Reaver 2 is how the Time Streamer fight went, which is inconsistent with Kain's other durability showings. Raziel still hurt Kain in cutscene before that, as well as after. We know that Kain can be healed by contact with Raziel, though, from here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zjmJLQohc#t=6m1s

"And the Scion of Balance is healed." It's even got the same effect from Avernus, so the context actually isn't really that different.

I don't see any reason for Bowser to stop at a few millimeters, personally, when something with 5x the durability of human skin can pierce farther than that.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2005/10/21/1485565.htm

A weak raptor can pierce 30-40 millimeters, that's much more than "a few."

Can you prove that one? How do you know that Kain's muscle and bone is stronger than his skin, for example? If we're using human scaling, 10x would still be enough to beat that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJqKYFZw5z8

A lion can bite with 600 psi, still pierces flesh and breaks bones with teeth duller than Bowser's claws/spikes. That's 6x human flesh durability, BTW. Based on this, Bowser wouldn't have a problem hurting Kain badly, especially if he's on fire or using magic.

This changes what? Please tell me what effect that would have on the feat and provide evidence for it, like that "kids breaking concrete" you claimed.

It's just your extrapolations that don't really work, though, since it's mostly nonsense. Why don't you just prove that taking a claw is the same as sitting in a star? Not that Kain tanking a claw is at all consistent, but hey, I'd like to see how they're comparable, personally. (Baiting is going to become your new buzzword, isn't it?)

Right now it's looking closer to 40 and breaking some bones, while the rest of the flaming spikeball that is Bowser crushes Kain.

That's weird, since I never actually typed "give it to kratos" before this moment, so I don't know who you're quoting there. I just said "possibly Kratos" based on the threads I've read and feats I've seen. I honestly didn't think it'd make you this angry, it was an offhand comment. The real point was Samus, Kratos was an afterthought. (Seriously, you're seeing bait where none exists.)

Kains whole durabiltiy was retconned itself, you see the scene that was conned, showed Kain far far weaker from Raziels attacks than his barely flinching self in the new version, so Kains been strengthened from his SR 1 scale and further its perfectly consistent because theres been one canon attempt by Raziel that ended with him wounding Kain mortally and that was heavy with context.

Thats Kain absorbing the wraith blade imbued with the balance guardians, it also seems to require Raziels will to do so, so I dont know about "simple contact", were you under the impression Kain just has to brush against Raziel and he heals or something? 😆

Your words are full of ignorance for many reasons, its like your just saying things that you think "sound" impressive without knowing their meaning, for example something have 5x durability of human skin is pretty poor. also go find me the figuires for human skin, show me how may pounds per square inch of force they can take first, then your "weak raptor" may have proven something for you.

Well, that is considering you may also find the PSI strength of its prey but ill allow you, out of my generosity just to find human durability since its Kains scale were using.

You need prove to prove bones are stronger than skin now? again, this is one of your daft comments and why these arguments are pointless. And again, baseless, 10x? since when? you dont even have the numbers for human skin yet, or bone...let alone Kains.

It never said "breaks bone" in your video unless I missed it also prove duller. Also, note that this 6x flesh durability is enough to according to the video close windpipes and such, not tear through things like their hot butter.

Because mud and rock cannot support a heavier amount of a heavier material its just basic science, if you build a small wall then wedge a thick slab of concrete or many of them (done it before in hopes of making a bbq, didnt work) it will collapse. Also, its also basic physics that if the whole thing is not supported, the center of the object is easier to break than the better supported areas, hence why people can do this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQyUqwjRAA

(couldnt find the kids one but heres another adult one;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdLxeGK7te4#t=1m13s

Their not using mud to stack their concrete either.

I dont see an argument, just a claim and possibly a bit of ad hominem. And if your baiting, your baiting, if you dont know what it is, then look it up if you want to avoid it. Also I have proven it in the threads concerning it pressurewise.

Is it? apprently by Scenarios hilarious logic a raptor cutting an unkown amunt of durability 40mm is the same as cutting 40mm into a human and therefore apprently the same as Bowser cutting 40mm in.... 🙄 are you ready to prove your claims yet or are you going to spam the hell out of this thread with nonsense?

Yes because baiting has nothing to do with posting "dur" images or anything to belittle your opponent, the pikachu image was just a laugh afterall but mentioning Kratos as a contender at all when you dont know him was foolish by itself, I know Kratos very well, its Samus I dont although I am sure shes smashed many a stone in her time for you to claim shes more durable than Kains planet core pressure resistance 😆

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains whole durabiltiy was retconned itself, you see the scene that was conned, showed Kain far far weaker from Raziels attacks than his barely flinching self in the new version, so Kains been strengthened from his SR 1 scale and further its perfectly consistent because theres been one canon attempt by Raziel that ended with him wounding Kain mortally and that was heavy with context.

Thats Kain absorbing the wraith blade imbued with the balance guardians, it also seems to require Raziels will to do so, so I dont know about "simple contact", were you under the impression Kain just has to brush against Raziel and he heals or something? 😆

Oh, okay, so it's fine to say that Defiance retconned Kain's durability back to normal levels, then. Raziel was still destined to kill Kain in Soul Reaver 2, though, and in Defiance he succeeded. It is shown that Kain simply contacting Raziel is enough to start the siphon, we see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=3m5s

Same thing as here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zjmJLQohc#t=5m30s

You can see Kain being healed just by contact with Raziel, so what's the problem?

Your words are full of ignorance for many reasons, its like your just saying things that you think "sound" impressive without knowing their meaning, for example something have 5x durability of human skin is pretty poor. also go find me the figuires for human skin, show me how may pounds per square inch of force they can take first, then your "weak raptor" may have proven something for you.

Well, that is considering you may also find the PSI strength of its prey but ill allow you, out of my generosity just to find human durability since its Kains scale were using.

'k, we can do that: TO MYTHBUSTERS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A5W20ohJzw (If you want to watch the whole thing, watch this. Otherwise, the second link skips right to the data.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A5W20ohJzw#t=3m

So, roughly 9 or 10 pounds of force (10 * 4.448222 = 44.48222 newtons) on a spike with a total surface area of roughly .63 m^2. (pi*2*10~63cm^2~.63m^2) So about 71 pascals or .1 PSI to pierce a human.

For completeness I'll do Raziel and Bowser, too. If I'm going to do math, might as well go all the way. And I am using a bit of a different formula than you or BloodRain, so it'll be nice to see how it matches up.

Raziel first, his claws have a total surface area of .33 m^2 for one, .66 m^2 for both, and I think I'll just leave off the thumb. (pi*2cm*7cm~32.9cm~.33m^2)

Looking over some threads, Raziel's at 1.868 MN or 1868000 Newtons from the obelisk tip. 1868000/.66m^2~2830303 pascals or 410 PSI over Raziel's 2 claws.

That puts Raziel at 4100x the pressure needed to pierce a human.

Now, Bowser. pi*2cm*6cm~37cm^2~.37m^2

.37m^2 for one claw, .74m^2 for two, 1.11m^2 for three, again leaving off the thumb. His newtons appear to be at 64374736.4, so 64374736.4/1.11m^2~57995258 pascals or 8411 PSI over Bowser's 3 claws.

So Bowser's pressure is roughly 84115x (eighty-four thousand times) greater than the pressure required to pierce a human and 20x greater than Raziel's pressure.

The tiger has a bite force of 1000 pounds, roughly 4400 newtons, and the surface area of it's teeth comes to .5 m^2. So about 8800 pascals, or 1.2 PSI. That's about 12x human durability. The lioness comes to roughly 7x human durability. I don't really need to show what they do to flesh, do I? The previous video showed them tearing it apart, and it's only around 7x flesh limit.

Bowser is at 20x.

You need prove to prove bones are stronger than skin now? again, this is one of your daft comments and why these arguments are pointless. And again, baseless, 10x? since when? you dont even have the numbers for human skin yet, or bone...let alone Kains.

It never said "breaks bone" in your video unless I missed it also prove duller. Also, note that this 6x flesh durability is enough to according to the video close windpipes and such, not tear through things like their hot butter.

No, I just wanted to make sure we were using human scaling to figure bones. If you watch the video you can see how the lions ate it. You know, tearing through the skin to get at the juicy bits inside. Again, lions are 7x and Bowser is 20x. Bowser is hurting Kain, and badly.

Because mud and rock cannot support a heavier amount of a heavier material its just basic science, if you build a small wall then wedge a thick slab of concrete or many of them (done it before in hopes of making a bbq, didnt work) it will collapse. Also, its also basic physics that if the whole thing is not supported, the center of the object is easier to break than the better supported areas, hence why people can do this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQyUqwjRAA

(couldnt find the kids one but heres another adult one;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdLxeGK7te4#t=1m13s

Their not using mud to stack their concrete either.

How do you know it's not heavier material? Bowser's stone isn't supported on mud at all, dunno why you're saying it is. Bowser's shattering several meters of stone, especially in the second one where it's supported by more stone. But fine, you want something that isn't supported like that, try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mr_VfbURU

Cool vids, by the way, and thanks for the evidence.

I dont see an argument, just a claim and possibly a bit of ad hominem. And if your baiting, your baiting, if you dont know what it is, then look it up if you want to avoid it. Also I have proven it in the threads concerning it pressurewise.

That's because it was a question. How is the pressure at the core of the earth comparable to a claw? How are they similar?

Is it? apprently by Scenarios hilarious logic a raptor cutting an unkown amunt of durability 40mm is the same as cutting 40mm into a human and therefore apprently the same as Bowser cutting 40mm in.... 🙄 are you ready to prove your claims yet or are you going to spam the hell out of this thread with nonsense?

The durability was pig flesh, which is basically identical to human flesh, and 40 millimeters is pretty deep into muscle. Since Bowser's already getting in several inches thanks to being 20x Kain's durability, this claim doesn't do much any more.

Yes because baiting has nothing to do with posting "dur" images or anything to belittle your opponent, the pikachu image was just a laugh afterall but mentioning Kratos as a contender at all when you dont know him was foolish by itself, I know Kratos very well, its Samus I dont although I am sure shes smashed many a stone in her time for you to claim shes more durable than Kains planet core pressure resistance 😆

The pikachu was too make sure you knew what I was referencing, because I didn't think just talking about extrapolations and nukes would be enough to indicate the comics thread. As for Samus, she certainly has broken a lot of stone. Now that I think about it, there hasn't been a Kain vs. Samus yet, has there?