I will monday, when I am not about to go away on a call for work. Its mostly in the thread here:
I will monday, when I am not about to go away on a call for work. Its mostly in the thread here:
Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Post it. :>
Zephon has no durability feats. Hasty generalisation, Zephon is not the entire race, hence why I gave the example of Dumah, Zephon is very different in physiology to Kain.
Dumah has no durability feats. In fact, he was killed by humans with stakes that pierced him rather easily. Zephon is still a Vampire, can you prove that Dumah is resistant to fire in some way? So far, Vampires tend to to burn very easily.
How do you know how "easy" it was to pierce him? also there are torches iirc all around the area, yet Raziel had to use a furnace to burn him. Zephons a vampire? so? hes horribly mutated down a devolutionary line greatly diverse from not only his other mutated brothers, but even further from the more pristine Kain.
"so far"? what are you talking about? they burn just like anything else.
Math:
I have a different set of workings, although in the other thread for the sake of it I conceded to certain measurements because it hardly mattered, so here is my math, on bloodrains figuires:
mass= 728696.466 kilogramsSpeed= 4 meters over 0.4 seconds
velocity= 4 divided by 0.4= 10
Velocity squared= 100
Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 728696.466 x 100
Kinetic energy= 72869646.6 x 0.5= 36434823.3 joule
36434823.3 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot
Pounds per square foot of force= 26872946.581685386240108122780119 (13 436.4733 tons)
Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 186617.68459503740444519529708416 (93.3088423tons)
186617.68459503740444519529708416 divided by 0.0032in2 (Bloodrains estimate of Raziels two claw tips) means Kain is invulnerable to 58318026.435949188889123530338801 (29 159.0132 tons) per 0.0032inch2.
Exact figuires:
0.0015500031 = square millimeter x2= 0.0031000062
Kain is immune to 60199132.696907962456718730783235 pounds (30 099.5663 tons) of force per every 2 square millimters, or 0.0032inch2. 15049.78315 tons of force for every square millimeter (0.0016inch2)
92 903.04= number of square millimeters in a square foot
46451.52= number of 2mmsquared in a square foot, therefore Kain is invulerable to 1398170605.975776 tons of force over a square foot. in full, 1.39 billion tons of force over a square foot.
Kains resistance in a square inch:
645.16 square millimeters in square inch= 15049.78315 tons multiplied by 645.16= Kains invulerable to 9709518.097054 tonnes (9.7 million tons) per square inch.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Razil's are like a blade? His claws are sharp for his attacks = small area.Meh.
Cept his claws aren't, nor is he that large.
-----------------------------
Ya got the mass wrong, its 272155.422 kg / 300 tons, and the velocity is 2m/s.
Well i dont know how big this bowser is, some bowsers look huge to me. He also has many claws to spread force over, not just two meaning his pressure would be divided more. His power may be halved, 2/4.
So I need to see him moving at speeds (same bowsers please) equel to Raz, using his whole body, similiar masses etc, then I can argue from there surface area. If he cannot best Raziel by a good 10% then I dont see the point.
not that this is important, argueing for the sake of it because hes not hitting Kain.
300 tons was the weight of the frustum you calculated, not the force Raziel used to move it which was greater. 2m/s was the speed the frustum was moving, Raziel moved further than 2m/s or rather, his body and further his arms did.
2m tall.
No way to suggest that he can't put full force into his strikes. Like said, Bowers J output is much higher, to say he cant produce that force as he chooses is an odd way to go.
Hoping someone else does the speed, but he has teleporting, so yay for something.
300 tons to kg * v of 2m/s = KE/ 2 = J. Youre joules are 67x the actual amount.
Originally posted by BloodRain
2m tall.No way to suggest that he can't put full force into his strikes. Like said, Bowers J output is much higher, to say he cant produce that force as he chooses is an odd way to go.
Hoping someone else does the speed, but he has teleporting, so yay for something.
300 tons to kg * v of 2m/s = KE/ 2 = J. Youre joules are 67x the actual amount.
Why would you be able to put your whole bodies energy into one punch? unless he, as I said leapt, using his legs/body and struck Kain with both hands?
If he teleports then he loses the extra force from movement, so I would suggest not, especially if he teleports into Kains time distortion.
Did you ignore me? I said the mass is not 300 tons, you dont take the base weight of an object someone is moving as their strength. You have to use the amount equel to the force they exerted on said object. This calculation is Raziel striking Kain, not Raziel moving obelisk.
I think this is the figuire your talking about:
mass= 272235.422Speed= 4 meters over 1 seconds
velocity= 4 divided by 1= 4
Velocity squared= 16
Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 272235.422 x 16
Kinetic energy= 4355766.752 x 0.5= 2177883.376 joule
2177883.376 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot
Pounds per square foot of force= 1606324.3436777866507306658200642 (803.162172 tonnes)
Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 11155.030164429073963407401528224 (5.57751508 tonnes)
Do you know the exact anatomy and mechanics of the body, more importantly Raziel's body, to know how much of his MaxJ he put into one of his hands for the attack?
Don't take much to throw an arm.
The force he exerted was his joules, the joules came from the weight of the obelisk * the speed2. Thats the maximum force Raziel can push on Kain. I'm assuming either the velocity in that post is either the speed you think he lifted it or his strike speed. If the former its wrong, if the latter we don't do that.
Originally posted by Burning thought
How do you know how "easy" it was to pierce him? also there are torches iirc all around the area, yet Raziel had to use a furnace to burn him. Zephons a vampire? so? hes horribly mutated down a devolutionary line greatly diverse from not only his other mutated brothers, but even further from the more pristine Kain.
Well, it wasn't hard, since humans could do it with human strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyqnHc_syM4
There aren't that many torches, but how the heck would Raziel even use them? Zephon retains the weaknesses vampires are stated to have, regardless of their individual purity. The fact he caught fire is unsurprising.
"so far"? what are you talking about? they burn just like anything else.
They don't, really. Last time I checked, humans don't burst into flame when they touch fire. Vampires do, even sunlights effects are just catching on fire.
Math:I have a different set of workings, although in the other thread for the sake of it I conceded to certain measurements because it hardly mattered, so here is my math, on bloodrains figuires:
I'll let someone else handle this, just because I don't feel like math right now. Suffice to say it looks sorta like BS.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, it wasn't hard, since humans could do it with human strength.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyqnHc_syM4
There aren't that many torches, but how the heck would Raziel even use them? Zephon retains the weaknesses vampires are stated to have, regardless of their individual purity. The fact he caught fire is unsurprising.
They don't, really. Last time I checked, humans don't burst into flame when they touch fire. Vampires do, even sunlights effects are just catching on fire.
I'll let someone else handle this, just because I don't feel like math right now. Suffice to say it looks sorta like BS.
So you assume it was just speared in him by hand?
Pick them up and throw them or something? he picks up torches often as weapons. Some vampires gain immunities (Rahab to water) some gain weaknesses (melchiah is falling apart), it seems Zephon burns even more easily.
Neither do vampires iirc, most canon showings have Raziel launching large cacoons of fire, I doubt a human would stand unfazed at raziel launching large flammable objects at them.
You dont seem to even know what it is, yet you claim it BS, tbh I think the math concerning the ball of iron is BS too but it does not matter.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Do you know the exact anatomy and mechanics of the body, more importantly Raziel's body, to know how much of his MaxJ he put into one of his hands for the attack?Don't take much to throw an arm.
The force he exerted was his joules, the joules came from the weight of the obelisk * the speed2. Thats the maximum force Raziel can push on Kain. I'm assuming either the velocity in that post is either the speed you think he lifted it or his strike speed. If the former its wrong, if the latter we don't do that.
No, I simply argue that if you only punched using one arm, then your whole body cannot be in the punch while if you use your whole body, then your whole body is in the punch, save perhaps one arm.
Well then its that one arm that we can argue.
It came from the distance the obelisk moved, and the speed it moved. You then take that figuire, which is Raziels strength as the mass (plus raziels weight). The distance this time however is raziels arm. Give or take a few measurements, the figuires wont change much.
No one throws a punch withought putting thire body into it, why cant Bowser? Nore to the point is that how he, or any character, exerts their force in a strike is unknown. At most you can half it for a one arm strike, but the same will then be applied to Raziel... so nothing really changes.
Oh, no. That was for the teleport.
The V comes from his lift speed, not its fall speed. Bit of a mistake there; Raziel's MaxJ (liking the sound of it) from the flip cant be added further to the speed of a strike, his maximum output cant be increased. Raziel can not produce more than 272 KJ, and thats the force behind his strike.
Thats why I dont use a 10GJ*5000m/s2 strengh for Dante.
Originally posted by Burning thought
So you assume it was just speared in him by hand?
You have an alternative theory and proof to back it up? Because as it stands, we know that Dumah was speared, most likely by humans.
Pick them up and throw them or something? he picks up torches often as weapons. Some vampires gain immunities (Rahab to water) some gain weaknesses (melchiah is falling apart), it seems Zephon burns even more easily.
Might go to gameplay mechanics, then. Dunno if any of the torches in fight were even removable. Still, exposing Dumah to fire killed him almost instantly and he caught fire.
Neither do vampires iirc, most canon showings have Raziel launching large cacoons of fire, I doubt a human would stand unfazed at raziel launching large flammable objects at them.
But they wouldn't exactly burst into flames like vampires do. By the way, the one on fire there was an adult Dumahim, so not particularly impressive.
You dont seem to even know what it is, yet you claim it BS, tbh I think the math concerning the ball of iron is BS too but it does not matter.
I can see what you did, though, and it doesn't look particularly reliable. I guess it doesn't really matter, though, since even a cursory glance tells you that Bowser is much stronger than Raziel seeing as what he did blows anything Raziel did out of the water and he's got claws, too. Plus fire.
Originally posted by The Scenario
You have an alternative theory and proof to back it up? Because as it stands, we know that Dumah was speared, most likely by humans.Might go to gameplay mechanics, then. Dunno if any of the torches in fight were even removable. Still, exposing Dumah to fire killed him almost instantly and he caught fire.
But they wouldn't exactly burst into flames like vampires do. By the way, the one on fire there was an adult Dumahim, so not particularly impressive.
I can see what you did, though, and it doesn't look particularly reliable. I guess it doesn't really matter, though, since even a cursory glance tells you that Bowser is much stronger than Raziel seeing as what he did blows anything Raziel did out of the water and he's got claws, too. Plus fire.
😆 apprently now my theory needs proof and yours does not? I never disputed it was done by humans, although I can give a suggestion not based on ignorance (you barely know the series) but on a vast educated knowledge on the subject, you see considering how even much older human civilisations used cannons, arbelists, ballistae as well iirc its fair to say its more logical that normal men did not take down the enormous Dumah simply by hand but used either an artifact like Moebius' staff or a mechanism. My logical deduction (not just because its from me, a better source on LoK) sounds better, due to the fact highwe tech humans who have access to flamethrowers are not going to take up spears by hand to fight Dumah.
Youve also used a red herring, Dumahs durability is irrelevent.
Well with about 700 tons of strength and sharp claws I like to see how you think he could not get a hold of some torch if you think thats more than enough, kinda like how the flamethrowers of the humans earlier were thrown away in favour of spears 🙂 , your deductions are not looking logical and based on what you said next, are based purely on a graphics animation. Well yes, I think most things would melt in an enormous furnace, I think you missed the "kain" and not "dumah" in the thread unless your trying to generalise here?
What that they burned? so the Dumahim are flammable? so?
You see what I did? I think your just shooting it down because it aids you to do so, not based on any logical deduction. No your right there, it does not matter, why? because Bowsers never hitting Kain. Bowser also uses punches, more than his finger nails so they can be hardly compared to Raziels claws. Also, you do realise this argument, about whether or not he can at least follow Raziels technique, is just to scrape the top layer of skin on Kains chest? not damage him in any way....
Originally posted by BloodRain
No one throws a punch withought putting thire body into it, why cant Bowser? Nore to the point is that how he, or any character, exerts their force in a strike is unknown. At most you can half it for a one arm strike, but the same will then be applied to Raziel... so nothing really changes.Oh, no. That was for the teleport.
The V comes from his lift speed, not its fall speed. Bit of a mistake there; Raziel's MaxJ (liking the sound of it) from the flip cant be added further to the speed of a strike, his maximum output cant be increased. Raziel can not produce more than 272 KJ, and thats the force behind his strike.
Thats why I dont use a 10GJ*5000m/s2 strengh for Dante.
Theres muslce in say your legs, lower back etc that may not be used in some punches. I can Punch with just one arm, my entire body, both arms etc would not be in a loose punch with just one arm. All Raziel is not using is one arm, so his strength would not be halved, since half his strength is not in one arm that ehs not using, but its important that bowser leaps into the attack. So far, looking through myself, he punches, not scrapes with his claws.
V comes from the potential energy shown, the obelisk moves a good meter or so without Raziels aid, hes doing to the obelisk what eh does to the smaller ones earlier, flipping. Yes it can, force increases due to speed, what do you think velocity is for? you dont use the velocity of the obelisk as the velocity for all his movements.
Dantes never moved something heavy at 5000m/s....seems to me according to you Dantes speed is irrelevent because you have to use the base speed of the feat and energy cannot be increased through speed, ofc I disagree but I dont know why your saying that.
I should not be awake right now...
Originally posted by Burning thought
😆 apprently now my theory needs proof and yours does not? I never disputed it was done by humans, although I can give a suggestion not based on ignorance (you barely know the series) but on a vast educated knowledge on the subject, you see considering how even much older human civilisations used cannons, arbelists, ballistae as well iirc its fair to say its more logical that normal men did not take down the enormous Dumah simply by hand but used either an artifact like Moebius' staff or a mechanism. My logical deduction (not just because its from me, a better source on LoK) sounds better, due to the fact highwe tech humans who have access to flamethrowers are not going to take up spears by hand to fight Dumah.
No, sorry, my conclusion was based on the evidence given in the actual game. Specifically, Dumah secretly being a complete idiot in addition to his weakness. Oh, it looks like the specific "human weapons," by which I mean "those that were seen to be used," of the humans are all spears. Not a flamethrower to be seen, just every single Dumahim neatly impaled on the human spears. Wielded by humans. With human strength. The ones noted to be the least likely to actually be a threat.
Well with about 700 tons of strength and sharp claws I like to see how you think he could not get a hold of some torch if you think thats more than enough, kinda like how the flamethrowers of the humans earlier were thrown away in favour of spears 🙂 , your deductions are not looking logical and based on what you said next, are based purely on a graphics animation. Well yes, I think most things would melt in an enormous furnace, I think you missed the "kain" and not "dumah" in the thread unless your trying to generalise here?
I think what you're missing here is that, canonically, Raziel did not even try. We don't know if a torch would have worked just as well on Dumah as it did on all of his children, since it never really happened. Still, the overwhelming evidence is that all pretty much all vampire are immediately killed by fire. Oh, and I did find it interesting how humanity does seem to have abandoned flamethrowers in favor of these knives and staffs/spears. Not that I even saw a flamethrower when I went through the game, aside from something in Zephon's arena that might have been one? Because, you know, other than that, no one seems to use flamethrowers.
What that they burned? so the Dumahim are flammable? so?
The problem being that humans, generally, are not flammable. Vampires, on the other hand, seem to burst into flame at the slightest touch with a torch and die on contact with a campfire. That Dumahim share this trait with every other vampire just sets a precedent for, say, Dumah himself to also be vulnerable to fire, as is shown by the furnace. Like every vampire in that game. So it follows that Kain is also vulnerable to fire, seeing as he, too, is a vampire, and a stated weakness of vampires is, in fact, fire. Of course, I don't see why this matters, as Bowser's flame is demonstrably much more powerful than even that furnace.
You see what I did? I think your just shooting it down because it aids you to do so, not based on any logical deduction. No your right there, it does not matter, why? because Bowsers never hitting Kain. Bowser also uses punches, more than his finger nails so they can be hardly compared to Raziels claws. Also, you do realise this argument, about whether or not he can at least follow Raziels technique, is just to scrape the top layer of skin on Kains chest? not damage him in any way....
Raziel doesn't seem to have a problem hitting Kain, and he is not demonstrably faster than Bowser. Bowser does indeed punch, and breaks boulders doing so, but he has used his claws multiple times, particularly in the Paper Mario games where we learn that his claws are also poisoned. Blood Omen proves that Kain does not react well to poison. Then there's the fact that Bowser has literally more than 8 times Raziel's strength (much more if he goes giant) to rip out Kain's heart, and it's fairly easy to see that Bowser is capable of tearing Kain to pieces. Assuming he doesn't incinerate Kain first.
This is all heavy speculation that he can't simply put his body into a strike, like anyone would.
No, it comes from the person doing the lifting. The time and distance Raziel takes to lift it is the velocity, it falling down is under its own weight/gravity is velocity, just not one produced from Raziel's arms. And its not base energy, its the maximum amount of energy he can use. No ones using the V from the flip, we use the energy from it, and you cant release more then 100%.
Nor has Raziel ever moved 800 tons at 10m/s. Right now you're using his max strength feat and adding it to his attack speed, which has the same basis as using maxstrength*maxspeed^2. The highest force you can say was behind the attack is 272 KJ/his best strength feat.
And in this case would make the energy behind Kain's best durability feat 1/1000th that of what Bowser can produce.
Kain's durability = 0.272 MJ over claw tips.
Bowser's attack = 272 MJ over claw tips.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Then there's the fact that Bowser has literally more than 8 times Raziel's strength
Originally posted by BloodRain
This is all heavy speculation that he can't simply put his body into a strike, like anyone would.
Which I find weird because one of Bowser's first skills is the "throw body into punch" move. And Bowser has a bit more mass than Raziel, too.
20 times, 6,000 tons to 300 tons.
Ah, so it's not 700 tons as was claimed previously?
700 was my fault. I used a cuboid shape and assumed a height of 20m. I rechecked it with; Raziel more likely smaller height, measured block height of 14m and the formula to calc a frustum(the shape it is). It gives 293.307 tons, set at 300 as a friends method gave 307.
Going by joules, Bowser is exactly 1,000 times stronger. So strength isn't really an issue for him.
Originally posted by BloodRain
This is all heavy speculation that he can't simply put his body into a strike, like anyone would.No, it comes from the person doing the lifting. The time and distance Raziel takes to lift it is the velocity, it falling down is under its own weight/gravity is velocity, just not one produced from Raziel's arms. And its not base energy, its the maximum amount of energy he can use. No ones using the V from the flip, we use the energy from it, and you cant release more then 100%.
Nor has Raziel ever moved 800 tons at 10m/s. Right now you're using his max strength feat and adding it to his attack speed, which has the same basis as using maxstrength*maxspeed^2. The highest force you can say was behind the attack is 272 KJ/his best strength feat.
And in this case would make the energy behind Kain's best durability feat 1/1000th that of what Bowser can produce.Kain's durability = 0.272 MJ over claw tips.
Bowser's attack = 272 MJ over claw tips.
You need to look at the object mate, hence why we argue strength based on the objects, not how fast someones armsare moving. It does not fall down under its own weight until its moved a few meters on its axis, which Raziel made it go, if I was adding the distance it fell I would have 6+ meters down, not 3/4.
Show me where I added his max strength to his speed?
The durability of Kains outer skin layer is about 9 million tons, to get that from the 6000 of bowser, he needs to be able to claw Kain at Raziels speed, I have yet to see this kind of agility from him, if hes going to punch like a lot of his showings seem to imply this is a waste of time, not that its not already since as I said he would have to be lucky to strike Kain, very lucky.
Also dont forget to divide bowsers force over 4, not 2 like Raziel. Half the pressure than when Raziel hits Kain 🙂
Even if you can prove all this, Bowser gets a cookie for breaking Kains outer skin layer, he will get stuck though at Kains flesh/bone, in which Kain would more than likely just stick his hand through bowsers face, ripping it off.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I should not be awake right now...No, sorry, my conclusion was based on the evidence given in the actual game. Specifically, Dumah secretly being a complete idiot in addition to his weakness. Oh, it looks like the specific "human weapons," by which I mean "those that were seen to be used," of the humans are all spears. Not a flamethrower to be seen, just every single Dumahim neatly impaled on the human spears. Wielded by humans. With human strength. The ones noted to be the least likely to actually be a threat.
I think what you're missing here is that, canonically, Raziel did not even try. We don't know if a torch would have worked just as well on Dumah as it did on all of his children, since it never really happened. Still, the overwhelming evidence is that all pretty much all vampire are immediately killed by fire. Oh, and I did find it interesting how humanity does seem to have abandoned flamethrowers in favor of these knives and staffs/spears. Not that I even saw a flamethrower when I went through the game, aside from something in Zephon's arena that might have been one? Because, you know, other than that, no one seems to use flamethrowers.
The problem being that humans, generally, are not flammable. Vampires, on the other hand, seem to burst into flame at the slightest touch with a torch and die on contact with a campfire. That Dumahim share this trait with every other vampire just sets a precedent for, say, Dumah himself to also be vulnerable to fire, as is shown by the furnace. Like every vampire in that game. So it follows that Kain is also vulnerable to fire, seeing as he, too, is a vampire, and a stated weakness of vampires is, in fact, fire. Of course, I don't see why this matters, as Bowser's flame is demonstrably much more powerful than even that furnace.
Raziel doesn't seem to have a problem hitting Kain, and he is not demonstrably faster than Bowser. Bowser does indeed punch, and breaks boulders doing so, but he has used his claws multiple times, particularly in the Paper Mario games where we learn that his claws are also poisoned. Blood Omen proves that Kain does not react well to poison. Then there's the fact that Bowser has literally more than 8 times Raziel's strength (much more if he goes giant) to rip out Kain's heart, and it's fairly easy to see that Bowser is capable of tearing Kain to pieces. Assuming he doesn't incinerate Kain first.
The game does not point out how Dumah was impaled, or how each vampire was impaled. Only that they are human weapons. Seems to me this was pre-soul reaver events, e.g. not long after Raziel was cast into the abyss because in the centuries that passed while Raziel was in the abyss, they had flamethrowers so unless these spears were launched by a contraption they must have been old traditional vampire hunters. It sort of goes against logic to think they held the weapons themselves unless they had some sort of magical properties because as shown earlier even Raziel with his much power needs to find ways of keeping them down and cannot just rip them in half, on top of that earlier humans had cannons and arbelists as I said.
Well of course he did not, what kind of idiot would try throwing a torch at Dumah? I like how you keep trying to imply fire destroys vampires so quickly not only based on gameplay animations but at the same time, its not immediatly at all, humans would also die if Raziel launched them into a huge bonfire. hasty generalisation fallacy, "vampire worshipers" are not classed as the whole of "humanity"
You have never seen a fire burn someone, humans are very flammable under certain heat, go and sit on a bonfire, you will burn. I dont see how it matters either, bowsers flame wont hit Kain, and Kain has durability beyond what his fire has burned no doubt.
Whats that based on? Kain just standing there in SR intro? 🙄 , well are we using paper mario bowser or another one? Bowser based on what I have seen prefers the punch in which he would not even harm Kain. Well I guess when you have a heart,poison going through your blood after you drink it is a bad thing. Fairly easy to see based on what? you have not even proven he can do exactly what Raziel can do yet. Your throwing around 6000 tons as if that makes up for all the pressure Kain can take, its not even close. To get from that to 9 million? your going to have do similiar things to Raziel and I am yet to be convinced he can even do that.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The game does not point out how Dumah was impaled, or how each vampire was impaled. Only that they are human weapons. Seems to me this was pre-soul reaver events, e.g. not long after Raziel was cast into the abyss because in the centuries that passed while Raziel was in the abyss, they had flamethrowers so unless these spears were launched by a contraption they must have been old traditional vampire hunters. It sort of goes against logic to think they held the weapons themselves unless they had some sort of magical properties because as shown earlier even Raziel with his much power needs to find ways of keeping them down and cannot just rip them in half, on top of that earlier humans had cannons and arbelists as I said.
Elder God points out that Dumah was just being stupid and underestimating people, so he and his kin didn't expect an attack. In fact, the guy was speared through while sitting on his throne. How, prey tell, did they get a siege weapon in there? It seems more like he was so arrogant he didn't even bother defending himself and got killed for it. That, or he was taken by surprise. IIRC, that time period is during Kain's reign of terror after Nosgoth went all to hell. I dunno, but what I saw in Soul Reaver suggestion a technological regression, seeing as every human in the game is wielding melee weapons and neither flamethrowers nor cannons and arbelists are ever seen. If you want to claim that the humans of the Soul Reaver era had such things, you're going to have to shown them to me. Further, impalement is an explicit weakness of vampires, too, so the humans would hardly need to rip them apart. All it takes, as the game shows, is to stab them with something and they die. Raziel can throw them onto sharp wall fixtures to accomplish this.
Well of course he did not, what kind of idiot would try throwing a torch at Dumah? I like how you keep trying to imply fire destroys vampires so quickly not only based on gameplay animations but at the same time, its not immediatly at all, humans would also die if Raziel launched them into a huge bonfire. hasty generalisation fallacy, "vampire worshipers" are not classed as the whole of "humanity"
Yes, your little gameplay argument. You know what? Scripted event. There you go, why would the animation show vampires instantly catching on fire and dying if that did not represent them? Why would those animations match the cutscenes of Zephon and Dumah so closely if that was not the intention? Why in the world, would fire be stated to be a weakness if it was not so very effective in game and in cutscene? By the way, the worshipers are hardly the only humans wielding melee weapons. There is a whole temple (right next to Dumah's territory, in fact) full of humans whose best weapon appears to be a pole-arm. A spear. I'm sure you will present evidence of high tech weapons if you want to prove the humans have them at that point.
You have never seen a fire burn someone, humans are very flammable under certain heat, go and sit on a bonfire, you will burn. I dont see how it matters either, bowsers flame wont hit Kain, and Kain has durability beyond what his fire has burned no doubt.
I have, in fact, suffered third degree burns before. You know what happened? My skin sizzled and blistered where it wasn't burned off. You know what did not happen? Well, my arm did not immediately burst into flames that quickly spread all over my body and thereby kill me in seconds. See, I think you are confusing "getting burned" and "being set on fire." You are always burned when you are on fire, but you are not always on fire when you are burned. See, the difference between humans and vampires is this: humans are not flammable, vampires are. Humans are difficult to set on fire; we can be burned, yes, but our skin does not catch on fire like paper, so the burns tend to be limited to the initial area of exposure or on clothing. Vampires, on the other hand, light up like fireworks.
I very well could sit on a campfire and, if my body didn't put out the fire, get burned pretty badly. What I won't do, however, is catch on fire, seeing as human skin is not flammable. Maybe my clothes will catch, if they don't melt. On the other hand, we have seen vampires land in a fire and immediately be covered in flames. We have seen a torch put in their chest catch their entire bodies. A flaming egg sets Zephon alight like any other vampire. This even happens in cutscenes, and is a scripted move for the torch weapon.
Whats that based on? Kain just standing there in SR intro? 🙄 , well are we using paper mario bowser or another one? Bowser based on what I have seen prefers the punch in which he would not even harm Kain. Well I guess when you have a heart,poison going through your blood after you drink it is a bad thing. Fairly easy to see based on what? you have not even proven he can do exactly what Raziel can do yet. Your throwing around 6000 tons as if that makes up for all the pressure Kain can take, its not even close. To get from that to 9 million? your going to have do similiar things to Raziel and I am yet to be convinced he can even do that.
Based on every fight between Kain and Raziel? Try Raziel tagging him with the Reaver. Or ripping out his heart. Try the Hylden Lord slashing right through him. Or knocking him into a wall. Really, Kain can't seem to get the hang of dodging.
Bowser's Inside Story is the only game where Bowser actually uses punches regularly. In other games he has other forms of attack, usually just fire breath. He breathes fire, throws hammers, or uses a ground pound in the original games. He uses his claws, teeth, fire breath, and the Star Rod in Paper Mario 1 and 2. He uses claws, weapons, and summons in Mario RPG. He uses shockwaves, shell attacks, and fire in Mario Galaxy. He has one punch move in Galaxy 2, but he's giant and his fist is covered in purple fire. With his claws he's over 20 times Raziel's strength, and since Raziel can rip out Kain's heart, Bowser will tear him pieces.