Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by The Scenario

Man with an arbalest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m25s

Man with flamethrower AND some sort of advanced suit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m39s

Elder God says he was surprised, so? Makes no indication still that humans, killed them all by hand, impossible due to previous evidence. I dont know about technological regeression, its just Vampires dont need it and clear away most of humanity, they mostly live in the citadel in the video above. Again, you dont know anything about LoK, impalement is a weakness because as Raziel says all other wounds are healed almost instantly, you need to keep an object in a vampire for it to remain defeated, e.g. a spear through the heart. I would imagine, a spear would need to pierce a vampire to defeat them, if your going to play sillly bugger then your wasting my time again. So it takes Raziels force then to put them on these fixtures, you did not counter my point with the whole "raziel has find other ways" thing, afterall Raziel hasa pair of huge claws with 9 million tons of force at his disposal.

Why would they catch on fire? because its in-game where if the mechanics meant you had to stand and make sure they actually burned in say, 20 minutes it would be boring wouldnt it. Dumah was in a furnace...a whole temple right? wow, a whole temple and they cannot possibly be more worshipers. I have provided the human citadel if you watch the videos have flamethrowers, only vampire worshipers use knives.

Third degree burns from what? a bonfire? because talking about something that only touched a small area is not the same, all vampires get thrown in bonfires, or torches light them by hand and vampires are not all naked. I think if you were wearing clothing, you would burn. Vampires typically wear clothing, at least in your examples (Zephon has flammable objects all around him, cacoons for one).

😆 you take specific context sensitive scenes and then claim hes not going to move at all. Maybe bowser wont move side to side because hes in a 2d space in most of his games 😛 , your talking nonsense again, e.g. he did not move there, therefore hes not going to move now.

Infact thats wrong, you see using his claws I have calculated the power of Bowsers blow, assuming he moves exactly the same way as Raziel, I know he cant because hes cumbersome and until I see that kind of agility I am not agreeing to such velocity but actually, bowser only has about 47% more energy in his attack than Raziel:

Bowser

mass= 5443244 kilograms (strength+136 for his weight)

Speed= 4 meters over 0.4 seconds

velocity= 4 divided by 0.4= 10

Velocity squared= 100

Multiply squared velocity with Mass= 5443244 x 100

Kinetic energy= 544324400 x 0.5= 272162200 joule

272162200 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot

Pounds per square foot of force= 200736537.18402895141685934658307 (100 368 tons)

Pounds per square inch (PSI)= 1394003.7304446454959504121290491 (697 tons)

--------Kains durability based on lowest figuires-------186617.68459503740444519529708416 divided by 0.0032in2 (Bloodrains estimate of Raziels two claw tips) means Kain is invulnerable to 58318026.435949188889123530338801 (29 159.0132 tons) per 0.0032inch2. Which is 58318.0264 tons per 0.0064in2 ------Kain durability based on lowest figuires

1394003.7304446454959504121290491 divided by 0.0064in2 (Bloodrains estimate of Bowsers four claw tips) means Bowser does 217813082.88197585874225189516392 pounds (108 906.541 tons, almost twice Raziels power) per 0.0064inch2. Bowser, under the same cirumstances, speed etc has a better chance than Raziel at scraping Kains outer skin (47% more power?)

Exact figuires:

0.0015500031 = square millimeter x2= 0.0031000062

Kain is immune to 60199132.696907962456718730783235 pounds (30 099.5663 tons) of force per every 2 square millimters, or 0.0032inch2. 15049.78315 tons of force for every square millimeter (0.0016inch2)

92 903.04= number of square millimeters in a square foot

46451.52= number of 2mmsquared in a square foot, therefore Kain is invulerable to 1398170605.975776 tons of force over a square foot. in full, 1.39 billion tons of force over a square foot.

Kains resistance in a square inch:

645.16 square millimeters in square inch= 15049.78315 tons multiplied by 645.16= Kains invulerable to 9709518.097054 tonnes (9.7 million tons) per square inch.

Even using the best possible outcome for Bowser, your still talking bullshit, why? because for your plan to work and do any damage conceivable Bowsers going to have to be standing there for minutes while Kain lets him scrape piecies off his top skin layer off....this does not happen and is fleeting to Kain who will likely heal between slashes anyway. Now please stop wasting my time with red herrings, semantics and poor logic, i think we both agree your circular debating style is boring and has never gotten us anywhere.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Man with an arbalest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m25s

Man with flamethrower AND some sort of advanced suit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m39s

Elder God says he was surprised, so? Makes no indication still that humans, killed them all by hand, impossible due to previous evidence. I dont know about technological regeression, its just Vampires dont need it and clear away most of humanity, they mostly live in the citadel in the video above. Again, you dont know anything about LoK, impalement is a weakness because as Raziel says all other wounds are healed almost instantly, you need to keep an object in a vampire for it to remain defeated, e.g. a spear through the heart. I would imagine, a spear would need to pierce a vampire to defeat them, if your going to play sillly bugger then your wasting my time again. So it takes Raziels force then to put them on these fixtures, you did not counter my point with the whole "raziel has find other ways" thing, afterall Raziel hasa pair of huge claws with 9 million tons of force at his disposal.

'k, you have you weapons, though that second one looks like a torch. Wonder why I never saw those guys when I went through the human citadel? Oh, well. Still, there's no indication that either of those were used, seeing as most of the Dumahim in Dumah's fortress, as well as Dumah himself, were impaled by six foot long spikes. Unless you're arguing that the humans fit one of those spikes on that tiny crossbow, you're still not telling me anything. Further, yes, I know why impalement is a weakness, it was explained in the game, by Raziel himself. But it doesn't prove much of anything since Raziel is not the only one impaling things, seeing as it's one of the Sarafan's primary methods of disposing of vampires, and Raziel knew of it long before he got his wraith strength amp. Dumah was found nailed to his chair, that indicates there were humans in his throne room, and he was impaled from multiple directions, once in front, and one in each left and right. The Dumahim were found inside the fortress walls, and even in the fortress itself. Trying to argue that non-human strength did that has no basis, since they are human weapons and we've seen nothing that can launch the spikes. You'd have to show the, what, siege weapon? Whatever would be capable of launching those six foot spikes. It's much more likely, and even implied, that the humans took Dumah by surprise and killed him. Vampire hunters, in most of the games I played, usually attack in melee.

Why would they catch on fire? because its in-game where if the mechanics meant you had to stand and make sure they actually burned in say, 20 minutes it would be boring wouldnt it. Dumah was in a furnace...a whole temple right? wow, a whole temple and they cannot possibly be more worshipers. I have provided the human citadel if you watch the videos have flamethrowers, only vampire worshipers use knives.

Because its a stated weakness we've seen happen in cutscene. The in game animation is still consistent with both Zephon and Dumah's death taking seconds, so the weaker spawn taking similar time just makes sense. I have seen the human citadel, I simply did not see those weapon on account them not being six foot long spikes. I did see the spears, though.

Third degree burns from what? a bonfire? because talking about something that only touched a small area is not the same, all vampires get thrown in bonfires, or torches light them by hand and vampires are not all naked. I think if you were wearing clothing, you would burn. Vampires typically wear clothing, at least in your examples (Zephon has flammable objects all around him, cacoons for one).

Burning grill with a fire a bit smaller than this on one arm. Heck, a kid at my school had a bonfire explode on him due to stupid gasoline use and he's fine now. But the thing is, even if it is something that touched a small area, a torch, for example, will catch a vampire's whole body. You know, you say that, but I've yet to see a vampire that will actually wear a shirt with the exception of whatever the heck Dumahim wear. Though it doesn't seem to make a difference since they all burn the same. I notice Kain doesn't wear a shirt, either.

😆 you take specific context sensitive scenes and then claim hes not going to move at all. Maybe bowser wont move side to side because hes in a 2d space in most of his games 😛 , your talking nonsense again, e.g. he did not move there, therefore hes not going to move now.

Not all that context sensitive. Raziel hit Kain in the Soul Reaver 2 intro, though it was really just the same boss fight from the end of Soul Reaver being retconned. Raziel hit Kain even after both started fighting seriously in Defiance. A weakened Raziel's claws still pierced Kain's (who was absorbing him) chest, ruining any chance of Kain's immunity being accurate. The demonstrably slow Hylden Lord outfought and cut through Kain (the Soul Reaver and Nexus Stone put them on equal terms), and it took Kain 200 years to recover. Then the Hylden Lord knocked Kain out of the air during a slow jump. Based on those, I can say even if Kain moves Bowser can hit him. Especially if Bowser remembers he can teleport.

Infact thats wrong, you see using his claws I have calculated the power of Bowsers blow, assuming he moves exactly the same way as Raziel, I know he cant because hes cumbersome and until I see that kind of agility I am not agreeing to such velocity but actually, bowser only has about 47% more energy in his attack than Raziel:

Even using the best possible outcome for Bowser, your still talking bullshit, why? because for your plan to work and do any damage conceivable Bowsers going to have to be standing there for minutes while Kain lets him scrape piecies off his top skin layer off....this does not happen and is fleeting to Kain who will likely heal between slashes anyway. Now please stop wasting my time with red herrings, semantics and poor logic, i think we both agree your circular debating style is boring and has never gotten us anywhere.

Bowser's actually pretty agile and can throw his body into attacks. Still, being so much stronger than someone who ripped out Kain's heart should let Bowser do quite a bit of damage to Kain. That first video even shows Bowser amping his claws with magic purple fire. You can leave the math to BloodRain, since I don't really want to look at it, but even a cursory glance shows that Kain isn't immune to Raziel. Heck, Raziel was destined to kill Kain, and that's rather hard to do if Raziel can't hurt him. So, really, claiming Kain is immune seems the sillier option, given the evidence of Kain having his heart ripped by Raziel and slashed by the Hylden Lord, a wound it took 200 years in a coma to recover from.

Originally posted by The Scenario
'k, you have you weapons, though that second one looks like a torch. Wonder why I never saw those guys when I went through the human citadel? Oh, well. Still, there's no indication that either of those were used, seeing as most of the Dumahim in Dumah's fortress, as well as Dumah himself, were impaled by six foot long spikes. Unless you're arguing that the humans fit one of those spikes on that tiny crossbow, you're still not telling me anything. Further, yes, I know why impalement is a weakness, it was explained in the game, by Raziel himself. But it doesn't prove much of anything since Raziel is not the only one impaling things, seeing as it's one of the Sarafan's primary methods of disposing of vampires, and Raziel knew of it long before he got his wraith strength amp. Dumah was found nailed to his chair, that indicates there were humans in his throne room, and he was impaled from multiple directions, once in front, and one in each left and right. The Dumahim were found inside the fortress walls, and even in the fortress itself. Trying to argue that non-human strength did that has no basis, since they are human weapons and we've seen nothing that can launch the spikes. You'd have to show the, what, siege weapon? Whatever would be capable of launching those six foot spikes. It's much more likely, and even implied, that the humans took Dumah by surprise and killed him. Vampire hunters, in most of the games I played, usually attack in melee.

Because its a stated weakness we've seen happen in cutscene. The in game animation is still consistent with both Zephon and Dumah's death taking seconds, so the weaker spawn taking similar time just makes sense. I have seen the human citadel, I simply did not see those weapon on account them not being six foot long spikes. I did see the spears, though.

Burning grill with a fire a bit smaller than this on one arm. Heck, a kid at my school had a bonfire explode on him due to stupid gasoline use and he's fine now. But the thing is, even if it is something that touched a small area, a torch, for example, will catch a vampire's whole body. You know, you say that, but I've yet to see a vampire that will actually wear a shirt with the exception of whatever the heck Dumahim wear. Though it doesn't seem to make a difference since they all burn the same. I notice Kain doesn't wear a shirt, either.

Not all that context sensitive. Raziel hit Kain in the Soul Reaver 2 intro, though it was really just the same boss fight from the end of Soul Reaver being retconned. Raziel hit Kain even after both started fighting seriously in Defiance. A weakened Raziel's claws still pierced Kain's (who was absorbing him) chest, ruining any chance of Kain's immunity being accurate. The demonstrably slow Hylden Lord outfought and cut through Kain (the Soul Reaver and Nexus Stone put them on equal terms), and it took Kain 200 years to recover. Then the Hylden Lord knocked Kain out of the air during a slow jump. Based on those, I can say even if Kain moves Bowser can hit him. Especially if Bowser remembers he can teleport.

Bowser's actually pretty agile and can throw his body into attacks. Still, being so much stronger than someone who ripped out Kain's heart should let Bowser do quite a bit of damage to Kain. That first video even shows Bowser amping his claws with magic purple fire. You can leave the math to BloodRain, since I don't really want to look at it, but even a cursory glance shows that Kain isn't immune to Raziel. Heck, Raziel was destined to kill Kain, and that's rather hard to do if Raziel can't hurt him. So, really, claiming Kain is immune seems the sillier option, given the evidence of Kain having his heart ripped by Raziel and slashed by the Hylden Lord, a wound it took 200 years in a coma to recover from.

You should have seen them since their all over the place, their a major element. Well no, the point is not that they were used, the point was that if this was a modern assault, where Dumah and his kin were at Soul reaver era strength then they would be using soul reaver era weapons, not spears not to mension the fact that humans as proven could never even damage normal vampires in soul reaver era without equipment I have shown otherwise as I said, Raziel would make easy meat of them. I dont know about fitting them on the crossbow although I dont know all their methods, its more possible than humans driving spears through 9 million tons of durability. If you look at the speared vamps, a lot of them are not soul reaver era. No, nothing non human can do it because Raziel cannot, thats a simple deduction so until we know for a fact human strength did it its useless to claim they did, we have seen plenty of weapons to suggest they have more offensive power than grabbing a spear unless, as I said they were pre-soul reaver era. In most of the games you played? what ones? because usually Vampire hunters, sarafan etc have a lot of ranged weapons from cannons (demon hunters but similiar purpose) and arbelists, arrows etc.

It was stated not as a weakness that automatically defeats them, the way Raziel says it is that vampires only have to fear "wounds that inflame" it was never indicated as soon as you toss a match at one they die.

Did you also notice all fire throughout the game seems to catch light really quickly? if you want further proof I can find other points in the game where other objects catch light almost instantly, quicker than irl. Point is, this is a gameplay mechanic, I dont know many games, certainly old ones that have in-game fire that spreads realistically, did you also notice the torches lose their fire after you use it? all mechanics. Kains irrelevent tbh, hes shown more endurance to all things beyond his kin other than perhaps water, also you forget at his youngest Kain walked through the very fires of hell unscathed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_11r1yE3FI&feature=related#t=5m22s

Their extremely sensitive because Kain does not even try to move, your making the claim that just because "he was hit" and "did not move" that he will never move or dodge against any opponent in a vs, I think thats more fallacies than hasty generalisation but its also just bad logic. Does not ruin the immunity because Raziel did it after not only both were weakened but Kain took the soul reaver to the chest, which actually wounded him, again context is important. Blood omen 2 Kain is not in this thread ergo, Kains durability thousand or two years ago is irrelevent but dont forget the blade simply phased through Kain without harming him, its likely this will simply happen here and Bowser cannot even hit Kain assuming Kain does not just use mist dodge.

Not sure how accurate that is because its in space isnt it, they dont seem to have much gravity. It will let him at best, scrape the top piecies of Kains skin off at least until kain simply re-heals between slashes, again as I said your making a mockery of me I think because Kains not just going to just stand there assuming he even let bowser hit him. Again context please, they did not use only claws here, Bowser does not use the wraith blade, the major weapon of power in the series (aside from the soul reaver itself) and the weapon Kain admits can kill him. If you check back, its the only option since Kain stands immune to claws, if your giving Bowser the wraith blade then perhaps he can do some more damage but Kain does not have a heart anymore on top of that the wound was not physical, Kains physical body was barely touched it seems to magic fire from the hylden magic did more damage. But again, context, this is not Blood omen Kain, its almost like argueing the weakest Ganon in LoZ, e.g. one without triforce or any power ups and generalising his power throughout the entire series.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You should have seen them since their all over the place, their a major element. Well no, the point is not that they were used, the point was that if this was a modern assault, where Dumah and his kin were at Soul reaver era strength then they would be using soul reaver era weapons, not spears not to mension the fact that humans as proven could never even damage normal vampires in soul reaver era without equipment I have shown otherwise as I said, Raziel would make easy meat of them. I dont know about fitting them on the crossbow although I dont know all their methods, its more possible than humans driving spears through 9 million tons of durability. If you look at the speared vamps, a lot of them are not soul reaver era. No, nothing non human can do it because Raziel cannot, thats a simple deduction so until we know for a fact human strength did it its useless to claim they did, we have seen plenty of weapons to suggest they have more offensive power than grabbing a spear unless, as I said they were pre-soul reaver era. In most of the games you played? what ones? because usually Vampire hunters, sarafan etc have a lot of ranged weapons from cannons (demon hunters but similiar purpose) and arbelists, arrows etc.

Meh, I never killed the human, so I never fought against them. Just went through the citadel. However, I'm not really sure what you mean, because this is Soul Reaver era, and in fact shows several Dumahim impaled on spears, which are stated to be human weapons. Dumah himself is turned into a pincushion. Dumah and his kin being Soul Reaver era vampires. Don't really see any other way to put a spear in a vampire other than melee. Raziel not being able to tear vampires apart is just gameplay mechanics.

It was stated not as a weakness that automatically defeats them, the way Raziel says it is that vampires only have to fear "wounds that inflame" it was never indicated as soon as you toss a match at one they die.

Good thing we have cutscenes then. Which the in game animations match up with surprisingly well.

Did you also notice all fire throughout the game seems to catch light really quickly? if you want further proof I can find other points in the game where other objects catch light almost instantly, quicker than irl. Point is, this is a gameplay mechanic, I dont know many games, certainly old ones that have in-game fire that spreads realistically, did you also notice the torches lose their fire after you use it? all mechanics. Kains irrelevent tbh, hes shown more endurance to all things beyond his kin other than perhaps water, also you forget at his youngest Kain walked through the very fires of hell unscathed:

Doesn't really stop it from being a weakness, nor does it stop Zephon and Dumah from dying in seconds. Bowser's flame is demonstrably more powerful than even the furnace Dumah got hit by, so small flames don't actually matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_11r1yE3FI&feature=related#t=4m53s

Fixed.

Ironic, now I was the one suffering. Not anything as pedestrian as physical pain, rather the cruel jab of impotent anger.

Neither Kain nor Mortanius is even being burned, and not even human Kain seems bothered by it. It's doubtful that Hell even has literal flame. Since Kain wakes up in a grave, I question whether or not that event took place in a physical area, rather than a spiritual or mental one. Where's the Heart of Darkness, I wonder? (The real one, of course, as opposed to the healing items.)

Their extremely sensitive because Kain does not even try to move, your making the claim that just because "he was hit" and "did not move" that he will never move or dodge against any opponent in a vs, I think thats more fallacies than hasty generalisation but its also just bad logic. Does not ruin the immunity because Raziel did it after not only both were weakened but Kain took the soul reaver to the chest, which actually wounded him, again context is important. Blood omen 2 Kain is not in this thread ergo, Kains durability thousand or two years ago is irrelevent but dont forget the blade simply phased through Kain without harming him, its likely this will simply happen here and Bowser cannot even hit Kain assuming Kain does not just use mist dodge.

Kain and Raziel were fighting seriously there, and Kain was still hit even while he was moving. I never once claimed that Kain would not move; If you read my previous posts, I said that Bowser could likely hit Kain even if he did try to dodge, seeing as both Raziel and the Hylden Lord have done so. I find it strange, however, that you say Blood Omen 2 Kain is not in this thread, yet just one paragraph ago you used Blood Omen 1 Kain to attempt to prove his durability. Why can I not do the same? All I'm arguing here is that Kain has been outfought on several occasions and Bowser is capable of doing the same. The Hylden Lord's blade actually gave Kain a pretty serious wound, not to mention Kain is still in pain from it over 200 years later. To quote Umah, there was but "The barest thread of life" still in him. Raziel also still tore out his heart, while weakened and being absorbed by Kain, and the Wraith Blade still struck a different part of his chest. Context, since Raziel could not have been using all of his strength there.

Not sure how accurate that is because its in space isnt it, they dont seem to have much gravity. It will let him at best, scrape the top piecies of Kains skin off at least until kain simply re-heals between slashes, again as I said your making a mockery of me I think because Kains not just going to just stand there assuming he even let bowser hit him. Again context please, they did not use only claws here, Bowser does not use the wraith blade, the major weapon of power in the series (aside from the soul reaver itself) and the weapon Kain admits can kill him. If you check back, its the only option since Kain stands immune to claws, if your giving Bowser the wraith blade then perhaps he can do some more damage but Kain does not have a heart anymore on top of that the wound was not physical, Kains physical body was barely touched it seems to magic fire from the hylden magic did more damage. But again, context, this is not Blood omen Kain, its almost like argueing the weakest Ganon in LoZ, e.g. one without triforce or any power ups and generalising his power throughout the entire series.

Ha, the gravity is unchanged from anywhere else in the game, and Bowser can fly anyway. Bowser, being stronger than the Raziel that pierced Kain's chest, could obviously do much more, especially if he chooses to amp his claws with that purple fire. Kain is hardly immune to claws, see Raziel, and then see how Kain spectacularly failed to regenerate and had to be healed by an outside force. See, based on this, I think Bowser wins if he can get a hold of Kain, which going by cutscenes is not all that hard, plus it looks like Kain's regeneration is hampered without his heart, since he needs to be healed now.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Meh, I never killed the human, so I never fought against them. Just went through the citadel. However, I'm not really sure what you mean, because this is Soul Reaver era, and in fact shows several Dumahim impaled on spears, which are stated to be human weapons. Dumah himself is turned into a pincushion. Dumah and his kin being Soul Reaver era vampires. Don't really see any other way to put a spear in a vampire other than melee. Raziel not being able to tear vampires apart is just gameplay mechanics.

Good thing we have cutscenes then. Which the in game animations match up with surprisingly well.

Doesn't really stop it from being a weakness, nor does it stop Zephon and Dumah from dying in seconds. Bowser's flame is demonstrably more powerful than even the furnace Dumah got hit by, so small flames don't actually matter.

Fixed.

Neither Kain nor Mortanius is even being burned, and not even human Kain seems bothered by it. It's doubtful that Hell even has literal flame. Since Kain wakes up in a grave, I question whether or not that event took place in a physical area, rather than a spiritual or mental one. Where's the Heart of Darkness, I wonder? (The real one, of course, as opposed to the healing items.)

Kain and Raziel were fighting seriously there, and Kain was still hit even while he was moving. I never once claimed that Kain would not move; If you read my previous posts, I said that Bowser could likely hit Kain even if he did try to dodge, seeing as both Raziel and the Hylden Lord have done so. I find it strange, however, that you say Blood Omen 2 Kain is not in this thread, yet just one paragraph ago you used Blood Omen 1 Kain to attempt to prove his durability. Why can I not do the same? All I'm arguing here is that Kain has been outfought on several occasions and Bowser is capable of doing the same. The Hylden Lord's blade actually gave Kain a pretty serious wound, not to mention Kain is still in pain from it over 200 years later. To quote Umah, there was but "The barest thread of life" still in him. Raziel also still tore out his heart, while weakened and being absorbed by Kain, and the Wraith Blade still struck a different part of his chest. Context, since Raziel could not have been using all of his strength there.

Ha, the gravity is unchanged from anywhere else in the game, and Bowser can fly anyway. Bowser, being stronger than the Raziel that pierced Kain's chest, could obviously do much more, especially if he chooses to amp his claws with that purple fire. Kain is hardly immune to claws, see Raziel, and then see how Kain spectacularly failed to regenerate and had to be healed by an outside force. See, based on this, I think Bowser wins if he can get a hold of Kain, which going by cutscenes is not all that hard, plus it looks like Kain's regeneration is hampered without his heart, since he needs to be healed now.

We know their human weapons, never disputed that so I dont know why you keep saying it, we know what happened eventually but not how. Raziel says in the cutscene he needs to burn and impale them consistently, a gameplay mechanic is the fact Raziel has to keep hitting them again and again, but the cutscene also points out he needs to find other ways. He would not say that if he could just pluck its arms from its shoulders or pull it in two.

Its not an FMV, it uses the same engine to render its cutscenes.

Well it does because you miss the point that its only a weakness because otherwise they would be invincible to typical harm. I dont know, what was your evidence for that exactly because all I have seen is him burning trees.

So your claim is that this is somehow just a dream? not a place? I dont get you, wheres your evidence?

So your argument is that because Raziel/Hylden lord can hit Kain while hes barely fighting, Bowser can when Kain is fighting at the top of his game? 🙄 It was not to prove durability, it was to prove fire resistance unless your trying to claim there is no difference between BO1 Kain physical resistance and LoK era? 😐

Kain was not fighting Raziel to defeat him, Raziel is integral to him, bowser is just a piece of trash to kill. The Hylden lord was fighting Kain at his weakest (arguably) and while wearing the Nexus stone that nullified Kains weapon. No, theres no actual physical wound, you just see it go through him. We dont know why Kain is still in pain, Hylden magic is my guess. It hit his chest, thats it, theres a lot of context thats important. Taking someone at their weakest and wounded to try and claim Kains weaker despite the other feat being Kain at full strength (and in an FMV) is illogical.

Kains chest<wraith blade=Raziel pierce. Kain chest>>>Raziels claws=no damage at all. As I said, small scrapes is all he can do, and it would take a while to eventually do any real damage, then he hits Kains bone...oh shit....Bowser gets punched, and dies or struck with Kains superior speed. One dimensional teleport, or one teleport for distance and a follow up strike. Or just TKs the big dinosaur into the air and slices him in half midflow. I could probably list all the practical ways for Kain to kill Bowser with ease but theres no point, Kain only needs his hands.

Also you really dont get the ending of Defiance do you, the whole "purification" and "healing" Raziel sacrificed himself for Kain was not just to heal the little hole he made on Kains chest...it was a purification of the corruption Nupruptor the guardian of mind cursed kain and all the circle guardians at the time with when his wife died, hence why Kain is so corrupt spiritually ANd why his sons devolve into monsters, they cannot take Kains corruption. Also if you look at Kains chest and when Moebius has his hand pulled to it theres no actual hole, its more a scar with blood across it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We know their human weapons, never disputed that so I dont know why you keep saying it, we know what happened eventually but not how. Raziel says in the cutscene he needs to burn and impale them consistently, a gameplay mechanic is the fact Raziel has to keep hitting them again and again, but the cutscene also points out he needs to find other ways. He would not say that if he could just pluck its arms from its shoulders or pull it in two.

Well, see, because we know that they are human weapons, and humans spears are wielded in melee, we at least know that humans engaged and defeated the Dumahim in melee. True, they had the element of surprise and Dumah's arrogance working in their favor, but that doesn't really affect durability. Gameplay mechanics would be the combat system, which requires vampires to be impaled, burned, or drowned and prevents normal attacks from working. We already know from the Sarafan that humans are capable of impaling vampire, so this isn't a surprise. The surprise is Dumah himself also being impaled, with a human melee weapon.

Its not an FMV, it uses the same engine to render its cutscenes.

Doesn't matter, it's still a scripted non-gameplay, story focused event. Which outright shows two allegedly powerful vampires die instantly when caught on fire.

Well it does because you miss the point that its only a weakness because otherwise they would be invincible to typical harm. I dont know, what was your evidence for that exactly because all I have seen is him burning trees.

No limits fallacy and gameplay mechanics for vampires being invincible. Bowser reducing trees to ash in seconds is a great feat for his fire, and already puts him above the furnace. There's also destroying brick and, if giant, stone and castles.

So your claim is that this is somehow just a dream? not a place? I dont get you, wheres your evidence?

1. No Heart of Darkness. Kain is revived using it, yet it does not appear in the scene. Instead, Kain just suddenly transforms.

2. Mortanius is also unharmed by the fire. Regardless of whether on not it's a real place, this indicates it isn't harmful.

3. Human Kain is not burned, either.

4. Kain's quote specifically states he is not in any physical pain, but rather full of rage. Combined with the above two points, it seems the fire is mostly for show.

5. Most importantly, Kain awakens in a mausoleum as a vampire. It's most likely some kind of underworld, as opposed to any physical place.

I don't care whether it's a dream or not, or even whether the place exists. I'm simply pointing out that trying to use that as a fire resistance/durability feat is an exercise in futility.

So your argument is that because Raziel/Hylden lord can hit Kain while hes barely fighting, Bowser can when Kain is fighting at the top of his game? 🙄 It was not to prove durability, it was to prove fire resistance unless your trying to claim there is no difference between BO1 Kain physical resistance and LoK era? 😐

No, my argument is that because Raziel and the Hylden Lord can hit Kain at the top of his game, Bowser can also hit him. I'm talking more about speed, here; mostly the fact that Kain does not show very much of it while fighting. Fire resistance is durability, just focused specifically on fire. The confusing thing here is you seem to be claiming that a durability feat in Blood Omen 1 (this fire claim) still counts for something, yet your comments imply you think there is a difference in abilities between Blood Omen Kain and LoK era Kain. The fact that you're trying to use Blood Omen as a feat, however, implies you think Kain's durability is constant. How curious.

Kain was not fighting Raziel to defeat him, Raziel is integral to him, bowser is just a piece of trash to kill. The Hylden lord was fighting Kain at his weakest (arguably) and while wearing the Nexus stone that nullified Kains weapon. No, theres no actual physical wound, you just see it go through him. We dont know why Kain is still in pain, Hylden magic is my guess. It hit his chest, thats it, theres a lot of context thats important. Taking someone at their weakest and wounded to try and claim Kains weaker despite the other feat being Kain at full strength (and in an FMV) is illogical.

If only that were true. On the other hand, the canon outright shows that Kain was fighting to defeat Raziel, and in fact briefly did. Of course, after that Raziel attacks again, and you think Kain wouldn't go for the win a second time? Even before the fight, Kain was trying to fight defensively, dodging Raziel, yet he did ended up getting hit. Against the Hylden Lord, Kain was outfought when they were on equal terms, and after that the Hylden Lord could swat him out of the air. Fact is, if these guys could land a hit on Kain, I don't foresee Bowser having a problem with it. I don't care how strong or weak Kain was, because the beauty of it is that it doesn't matter. Kain's speed is the same in both cutscenes, allowing both Raziel and the Hylden Lord to tag him, regardless of how powerful he was.

Kains chest<wraith blade=Raziel pierce. Kain chest>>>Raziels claws=no damage at all. As I said, small scrapes is all he can do, and it would take a while to eventually do any real damage, then he hits Kains bone...oh shit....Bowser gets punched, and dies or struck with Kains superior speed. One dimensional teleport, or one teleport for distance and a follow up strike. Or just TKs the big dinosaur into the air and slices him in half midflow. I could probably list all the practical ways for Kain to kill Bowser with ease but theres no point, Kain only needs his hands.

No, as it turns out, Kain's chest > Raziel's claws since Raziel's claws pierced Kain's chest. The wraith blade did not appreciably affect this, seeing as it struck a completely different area and Kain was absorbing Raziel in any case. You're trying to use an earlier feat to contradict a later one, when this is not how it works. Raziel was even weaker than he was before, so it looks like Kain vs Raziel got retconned now that Raziel can hurt him in a weakened state. Now, Bowser, being so many times stronger than Raziel, will most likely just take Kain apart if he chooses not to torch the vampire.

Also you really dont get the ending of Defiance do you, the whole "purification" and "healing" Raziel sacrificed himself for Kain was not just to heal the little hole he made on Kains chest...it was a purification of the corruption Nupruptor the guardian of mind cursed kain and all the circle guardians at the time with when his wife died, hence why Kain is so corrupt spiritually ANd why his sons devolve into monsters, they cannot take Kains corruption. Also if you look at Kains chest and when Moebius has his hand pulled to it theres no actual hole, its more a scar with blood across it.

Yes, yes, I know how how the plot works, I was simply pointing out that it also physically healed Kain of his giant wound. When Raziel ripped Kain's heart out, Kain failed to regenerate, and the character model reflects that with a gaping hole. Without the heart, it seems Kain can't regenerate, which will just make it easier for Bowser.

Originally posted by The Scenario

We dont know their just human spears, and you cannot generalise just because previous humans have used spears in melee these were without a doubt used such so no, you have no case. Raziels says all of it in a cutscene. sarafan are pre-soul reaver era. Your assuming it was a human melee weapon, or that it was a spear at all, I could simply claim it was some sort of ballistae bolt or a shot launched from one of those crossbow things, all more likely than humans>>9 million tons.

It does matter, because the graphics render the fire, actions etc, it also makes wood and iirc stone burn just as quick when irl it could take minutes if not hours. And he did not die, Zephon flailed about, and I would hardly describe an enormous furnace for dumah as just "cought on fire".

Did you miss the point on purpose? How is burning a tree more impressive than a furnace?

1. This is the only worthwhile point, the rest;

2. Just a feat for mortanius as well

3. Hes hardly human at that point, hes dead so hes something in between but concious.

4. Well if it does not harm him he would not be in any physical pain would he.

5. Whether hes in an underworld or not, why does that matter?

Well we have a lot of excercises here, like you reaching for humans physically killing vampires in melee despite all evidence suggesting otherwise, Bowser being able to hit, let alone damage Kain as if Kains just going to do nothing etc.

Excuse me, top of his game? BO2? Your playing on PIS to help Bowser? maybe I will claim bowser will just jump up and down in this fight or punch then, since he does not seem to intelligently fight. Physically there clearly is a difference, but your claiming current Kain is weaker because of a previous Kain, illogical wheras I can claim current Kain is stronger based on previous Kains unless it can be proven he loses some specific power. What your doing is like using a Kratos feat from God of war 1 and saying Kratos in GoW 3 is weaker despite all his powerups because of it.

Well you dont know the story clearly, Kain does not want to harm Raziel and is simply defending himself. This is not the same here, Kains just going to kill bowser without any reason to halt or go all out to kill him. Kains speed is not moving basically, you use two context sensitive areas and then claim Bowser is going to hit him, ignoring mist dodge, teleport etc. But this is, again a red herring because Kain is just going to stand there and take what Bowser brings to the table with ease.

The wraith blade hit his chest, plain and simple, its the only difference between the two scenes that can give Raziel an advantage beyond Soul reaver 2 unless devouring Turels soul boosted him more than just his TK powers and gave him a general boost. You would be right if Kain was not weakened and struck by the wraith blade and if they were both at max power levels but hey, your not right because again you ignore context when it suits you. Again, you keep claiming bullshit, he can barely if hes lucky scrape the outer layer of Kains skin, Kain on the other hand swats the thing with the back of his hand, snapping its neck.

It looks like just a scar, fair enough Kains healing is not perfect but theres no real hole, as I said it seems fairly flat. Even the developers identify it as just a scar. Also, you forget that Kains natural body is not the only thing that regenerates him, he wields the reaver. The model looks like a scarred area with congealed blood, if it was an open wound then more blood would be seeping from it, the ribs would be pertruding etc, clearly these are healed because Kains chest is fairly smooth.

So far bowser cannot:

-Do any real long term damage to Kain
-penetrate beyond his outer flesh
-Show any feats to keep up with Kain
-counter the reaver
-counter time control
-counter mind rape, soul rape, blood drain.
-Counter Kains fist smacking into his skull and tearing his spine out
-Counter Telekinesis

So far all he can do is slap Kains chest in an infantile attempt at damaging him and win the hearts and minds of overzealous fans who are too filled with pride to drop a point no matter how fallacious it is.

How do you get all of that out of this thread so far? Like, are you even reading or just going back to ignoring everything again?

Nothing so far counters any of those statements. Also pot calling kettle black again, I cannot ignore something and then counter it or even post to it so obviously it was not ignored, infact I even use some of the oppositions things for my outcome.

I should probably just ignore your trolling but replying to one sentance hardly matters. Maybe if you spent more time actually making some sort of argument than throwing in fallacies now and then and more or less discrediting your own team you may help them out.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We dont know their just human spears, and you cannot generalise just because previous humans have used spears in melee these were without a doubt used such so no, you have no case. Raziels says all of it in a cutscene. sarafan are pre-soul reaver era. Your assuming it was a human melee weapon, or that it was a spear at all, I could simply claim it was some sort of ballistae bolt or a shot launched from one of those crossbow things, all more likely than humans>>9 million tons.

So you're ignoring the cutscene, then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=1m

They are stated to be human weapons. Just by looking at them I can see that they are sprears and tridents, with distinctly un-aerodynamic prongs on them. If you want to claim that they were launched from something, please show me the launching device. If you can't it seems you just made that up. Then I'm sure you can show me how they got such a siege weapon into Dumah's throne room.

It does matter, because the graphics render the fire, actions etc, it also makes wood and iirc stone burn just as quick when irl it could take minutes if not hours. And he did not die, Zephon flailed about, and I would hardly describe an enormous furnace for dumah as just "cought on fire".

This comes closer to ignoring canon than cutscenes, but functionally the same. Vampires are canonically stated to be weak to fire. Observations in cutscene show that this is in fact the case, with at least two vampires dying immediate after they are hit by fire. You can't deny this and still say you're following canon.

Did you miss the point on purpose? How is burning a tree more impressive than a furnace?

And now you seem to have ignored the cutscene I showed you of Bowser destroying stone with his fire blasts. In any case, burning a tree to ash in seconds is rather above the shown feats of the furnace, which seems to be making a small explosion that fails to destroy stone, rather unlike Bowser's flames.

1. This is the only worthwhile point, the rest;

2. Just a feat for mortanius as well

3. Hes hardly human at that point, hes dead so hes something in between but concious.

4. Well if it does not harm him he would not be in any physical pain would he.

5. Whether hes in an underworld or not, why does that matter?

2. Hardly. Mortanius is still human, what reason does he have to be immune to fire? As a Necromancer, it's more likely he can communicate with dead in some way. Kain being dead, it's simply how he chose to give him the deal and convinces him to return to his body.

3. His body seems to be in a mausoleum. I'm guessing soul or spirit. Rather like Ariel. Still, not even mentioning the fire indicates it likely isn't hot.

4. Yet he seems to be describing emotional pain, like rage. Again, he doesn't even mention fire.

5. If he's in a underworld, he may not have a physical body. Him waking up in a mausoleum implies his body was there while his spirit or something was elsewhere, with Mortanius. Ergo his actual body has no fire resistance.

Well we have a lot of excercises here, like you reaching for humans physically killing vampires in melee despite all evidence suggesting otherwise, Bowser being able to hit, let alone damage Kain as if Kains just going to do nothing etc.

All actual evidenceis that the Dumahim were killed by humans in melee, though. That is, without all the speculation that they had non existent siege weapons that they got inside a castle before using. Unless, of course, you can prove that not only are tridents good ammunition, they have something to fire them out of, and got them inside Dumah's fortress.

Excuse me, top of his game? BO2? Your playing on PIS to help Bowser? maybe I will claim bowser will just jump up and down in this fight or punch then, since he does not seem to intelligently fight. Physically there clearly is a difference, but your claiming current Kain is weaker because of a previous Kain, illogical wheras I can claim current Kain is stronger based on previous Kains unless it can be proven he loses some specific power. What your doing is like using a Kratos feat from God of war 1 and saying Kratos in GoW 3 is weaker despite all his powerups because of it.

Well, you know, I can claim Kain lost quite a few of his powers thanks to his defeat and subsequent coma thanks to the Sarafan Lord. Since he did. Though, again, I'm not really claiming that Kain is any weaker, just that cutscene show him as not being very good at dodging. It's not like I'm saying the Sarafan Lord could almost kill him again, I'm saying that the Sarafan Lord hit him and Kain's dodging has not improved since then. Since the Sarafan Lord hit him again when he tried to attack him. And then Raziel managed to hit him again, showing that his ability to dodge has had little improvement. In this case, early Kain matches late Kain.

Well you dont know the story clearly, Kain does not want to harm Raziel and is simply defending himself. This is not the same here, Kains just going to kill bowser without any reason to halt or go all out to kill him. Kains speed is not moving basically, you use two context sensitive areas and then claim Bowser is going to hit him, ignoring mist dodge, teleport etc. But this is, again a red herring because Kain is just going to stand there and take what Bowser brings to the table with ease.

Yes, I'm sure that why he went all out and beat Raziel down. Remember when he did that? Yeah, good times. Oh, and if he was dedicating himself purely to defending, he did a poor job of it since he still got hit. So I doubt Bowser will have that much of problem hitting a non defensive Kain.

The wraith blade hit his chest, plain and simple, its the only difference between the two scenes that can give Raziel an advantage beyond Soul reaver 2 unless devouring Turels soul boosted him more than just his TK powers and gave him a general boost. You would be right if Kain was not weakened and struck by the wraith blade and if they were both at max power levels but hey, your not right because again you ignore context when it suits you. Again, you keep claiming bullshit, he can barely if hes lucky scrape the outer layer of Kains skin, Kain on the other hand swats the thing with the back of his hand, snapping its neck.

The Wraith Blade did not hit his chest, plain and simple. The scene is still quite different from Soul Reaver 2, including the way Raziel continually hesitating to kill Kain there. I doubt that he was using his claws. Whereas in Defiance he was weakened by, you know, Kain absorbing his soul. Heck, we know from the ending that touching Raziel can heal Kain, both physically and spiritually. So yeah, Raziel was weakened, and Kain was being strengthened. So really, noding boding well for Kain, especially with Bowser being so much stronger than Raziel.

It looks like just a scar, fair enough Kains healing is not perfect but theres no real hole, as I said it seems fairly flat. Even the developers identify it as just a scar. Also, you forget that Kains natural body is not the only thing that regenerates him, he wields the reaver. The model looks like a scarred area with congealed blood, if it was an open wound then more blood would be seeping from it, the ribs would be pertruding etc, clearly these are healed because Kains chest is fairly smooth.

I not convinced you even watched the video at the moment. Here. You can see it's a hole in the middle of his chest. Even here you can tell it's a hole he failed to regenerate. Oh, I wonder why this open wound isn't bleeding what with Kain missing the very organ that pumps it, not to mention Kain was lying in the Demon Realm for quite a while. No surprise he's not regenerating. His ribs weren't even visible when Raziel ripped the heart out, why would they be visible now?

So far bowser cannot:

Barely any of these were even brought up, why are you assuming you've disputed them? That seems dishonest.

-Do any real long term damage to Kain
-penetrate beyond his outer flesh

These are the same thing, why separate them? In any case, it's already known that a weakened Raziel can tear out a strengthening Kain's heart, in addition to the fact that Bowser is 20 times stronger than Raziel. Bowser can not only hurt Kain, he can poison him, which Kain is again known to be vulnerable to and can do absolutely nothing about.

-Show any feats to keep up with Kain

Define "keep up with." Bowser is plenty fast and can teleport, not to mention fly.

-counter the reaver
-counter time control

Flying. Problem solved.

-counter mind rape, soul rape, blood drain.

If you're referring to, say, Spirit Wrack, Spirit Death, or Blood Gout, not only were those lost due to his loss to the Srafan Lord, they are all projectiles. Slow projectiles, at that. Blood drain is especially doubtful.

-Counter Kains fist smacking into his skull and tearing his spine out

Bowser's durability is likely to make that one impossible. What with supernova being generally > Kain. Or giant iron balls. Not to mention he can just go giant form.

-Counter Telekinesis

Giant, teleport, flight, etc.

So far all he can do is slap Kains chest in an infantile attempt at damaging him and win the hearts and minds of overzealous fans who are too filled with pride to drop a point no matter how fallacious it is.

Well, so far Bowser is stronger than a guy that ripped out Kain's heart, exploits Kain's weakness to fire, and is capable of poisoning him, another weakness. That right there sounds like a win.

😐 😐 😐 King Koopa would manhandle Kain while Mario and Raziel got it on in the background, kidding. Kain would manhandle Koopa. Most of 'King' Koop is merely H2H, something Kain is great at due to his age and experience. And, I'd love to see 'King' Poopa stand being stabbed by the Reaver. Any form of it, lulz

Originally posted by The Scenario

Been a busy boy? I thought you had gone on holiday without telling 😠

You miss the point, we dont know "thier just" human spears, you also said yourself as I agree thier human weapons, but your the one assuming spears, I could just as rightly claim (more so based on evidence) that they were fired from a device, enchanted by magic used by previous vampire hunters or series of other things. You have seen a launching device, although why do i have to show you the launching device? your just making claims and suggestions, you could no more prove they did it by hand and defeated 9 million tons of durability which is ridiculous than I can prove my far more likely theory that arguably modern man (flame throwers, tech armour) or at least a humanity that have had so many far more higher tech weapons (including those shown in this game) used an unseen siege weapon, sorcerous device etc.

Thats because it can kill them, your making the reaching leap that it destroys them fast based on an old games graphics engine and how fire is rendered, its not just the vampires that burn like that in the game so I could argue perhaps that this is some super heated flame and that both the vampires and the flame are made more flammable from the soul reaver environment. I am not following your twisted interpretation.

Thats not impressive, destroying stone? a large industrial furnace is often used to melt metal. not sure thats even a feat, burning a tree to ash is worthless.

2. Hes a powerful sorceror, there could be inumerable suggestions why he can survive.

3. But ariel is not in some unkown hell....and if she was, what is your point?

4. Again, so what? hes standing in hell, the heat does nothing to him so he would not mension it would he, this is the worst point of your quintette because assuming what I said was true he would not mension the flames.

5. However in that scene Kain does not look like any spirit iirc in the series, you brought up Ariel as a good example of a spirit, ghostly and levitating around.

Nothing points to that, only your claim, the only proof you have is that humans did it in some form, which I never disputed. I think suggesting they have more weapons than just spears when all previous, older versions of man have far more and indeed, this version have tech armour and flamethrowers is far more likely than humans defeating millions of tons of durability , infact not a single human body is shown there iirc, meaning it may have been a completly ranged effort. Why do you keep claiming siege weapons have to be inside Dumahs throne room?

Since when can you claim that? A: Defiance Kain sees Blood omen 2 as an alternate event, meaning he has all the powers he had if BO 2 never happened. B: What evidence do you have he lost all his power? Sure Kain is weakened, but I dont recall indication that specific powers are lost to him, only his memory which does not touch the Kain in this thread.

Again ignoring context, honestly I am sure if we were debating Dante from DMC, you would claim he cannot dodge because of several very context sensitive events where he did not.

Kain going all out to you is him "throwing" Raziel to the floor? 😆 , unfortunatly for bowser, Kain has anything form mist form, greater speed/reactions and a teleport to avoid any strike. Or he could just parry with his sword...killing bowser instantly in the process.

🙄 Where do you think it struck? his ears, his arms? show me your reach of logic that the wraith blade had no effect on weakening Kain. Holy shit 😆 you know nothing about this series and now your making Quanchi esque claims like how apprently purified Raziel at the end is the same as Raziel now...healing Kain on touch, are you serious? I dont know why you try and argue this if you cannot even do it properly, I dont know a ton on Bowser but at least I am not making ridiculous statements like that. Bowser has strength, but not the wraith blade.

You can see a dark mark of flesh, some blood...for all intents and purposes a scar. You think that blood only bleeds if its being pumped by a heart? because apprently its a hole, if its a hole you would see the broken rips, it would not be a dark mark like it would be if, lets say it was a scar amrite?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Barely any of these were even brought up, why are you assuming you've disputed them? That seems dishonest.

These are the same thing, why separate them? In any case, it's already known that a weakened Raziel can tear out a strengthening Kain's heart, in addition to the fact that Bowser is 20 times stronger than Raziel. Bowser can not only hurt Kain, he can poison him, which Kain is again known to be vulnerable to and can do absolutely nothing about.

Define "keep up with." Bowser is plenty fast and can teleport, not to mention fly.

Flying. Problem solved.

If you're referring to, say, Spirit Wrack, Spirit Death, or Blood Gout, not only were those lost due to his loss to the Srafan Lord, they are all projectiles. Slow projectiles, at that. Blood drain is especially doubtful.

Bowser's durability is likely to make that one impossible. What with supernova being generally > Kain. Or giant iron balls. Not to mention he can just go giant form.

Giant, teleport, flight, etc.

Well, so far Bowser is stronger than a guy that ripped out Kain's heart, exploits Kain's weakness to fire, and is capable of poisoning him, another weakness. That right there sounds like a win.

Not really, I was highlighting the fact that argueing physical ability is ridiculous when despite it being far more than enough in Kains favour in this thread, it is not Kains best asset.

Its shown that Raziel can do this to a damaged Kain struck by the wraith blade, context young man context, it is proven in SR 2 a max strength Kain can take a far more powerful blow with no damage at all. We have done this, less than 50% more pressure is being used if Bowser strike with his claws at raziels speed, I doubt hes capable of Raziels agility but even then, its barely enough imo to even pierce Kain. I think its hilarious how you bring up a reason for Kains heart missing earlier but then claim he can still be poisoned. Kain is by default immune to poison now isnt he.

"plenty" fast, I have not seen. Also show me him flying and teleporting.

😆 sorry? I dont think flying is somehow going to negate time powers or the reaver, especially not when Kain can also teleport.

I will wait until you make a case for them being lost but why do you assume just because their projectiles Bowser can automatically dodge them all with ease? you know their homing projectiles? and that bowser is not even fast....not sure I have seen greater than human speed from him yet. Blood rain is doubtful? its the best one, since it is not a projectile, its basically just Kain moving his hand slightly and Bowser going into cardiac arrest, his heart bursting and him dieing.

What durability? an iron ball does not>>>millions of tons of force. Show me him "just going" giant form, and then give me the advantage of this because I can only see disadvantages.

Hes going to be teleporting a lot to escape TK, I cannot imagine when hes going to get time to hit Kain if thats all hes doing.

All 3 of those claims have been shot down and rely purely on bowser being able to hit someone who is far faster, can teleport and turn into mist at will to avoid a strike if need be. Then you forget one counter attack with the reaver and Bowser dies.

Kains defence is far superior to Bowser offence which is inferior to Kains offence which can easily defeat Bowsers defence, ergo Kain wins with ease.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Been a busy boy? I thought you had gone on holiday without telling 😠

You miss the point, we dont know "thier just" human spears, you also said yourself as I agree thier human weapons, but your the one assuming spears, I could just as rightly claim (more so based on evidence) that they were fired from a device, enchanted by magic used by previous vampire hunters or series of other things. You have seen a launching device, although why do i have to show you the launching device? your just making claims and suggestions, you could no more prove they did it by hand and defeated 9 million tons of durability which is ridiculous than I can prove my far more likely theory that arguably modern man (flame throwers, tech armour) or at least a humanity that have had so many far more higher tech weapons (including those shown in this game) used an unseen siege weapon, sorcerous device etc.

Thats because it can kill them, your making the reaching leap that it destroys them fast based on an old games graphics engine and how fire is rendered, its not just the vampires that burn like that in the game so I could argue perhaps that this is some super heated flame and that both the vampires and the flame are made more flammable from the soul reaver environment. I am not following your twisted interpretation.

Thats not impressive, destroying stone? a large industrial furnace is often used to melt metal. not sure thats even a feat, burning a tree to ash is worthless.

2. Hes a powerful sorceror, there could be inumerable suggestions why he can survive.

3. But ariel is not in some unkown hell....and if she was, what is your point?

4. Again, so what? hes standing in hell, the heat does nothing to him so he would not mension it would he, this is the worst point of your quintette because assuming what I said was true he would not mension the flames.

5. However in that scene Kain does not look like any spirit iirc in the series, you brought up Ariel as a good example of a spirit, ghostly and levitating around.

Nothing points to that, only your claim, the only proof you have is that humans did it in some form, which I never disputed. I think suggesting they have more weapons than just spears when all previous, older versions of man have far more and indeed, this version have tech armour and flamethrowers is far more likely than humans defeating millions of tons of durability , infact not a single human body is shown there iirc, meaning it may have been a completly ranged effort. Why do you keep claiming siege weapons have to be inside Dumahs throne room?

Since when can you claim that? A: Defiance Kain sees Blood omen 2 as an alternate event, meaning he has all the powers he had if BO 2 never happened. B: What evidence do you have he lost all his power? Sure Kain is weakened, but I dont recall indication that specific powers are lost to him, only his memory which does not touch the Kain in this thread.

Again ignoring context, honestly I am sure if we were debating Dante from DMC, you would claim he cannot dodge because of several very context sensitive events where he did not.

Kain going all out to you is him "throwing" Raziel to the floor? 😆 , unfortunatly for bowser, Kain has anything form mist form, greater speed/reactions and a teleport to avoid any strike. Or he could just parry with his sword...killing bowser instantly in the process.

🙄 Where do you think it struck? his ears, his arms? show me your reach of logic that the wraith blade had no effect on weakening Kain. Holy shit 😆 you know nothing about this series and now your making Quanchi esque claims like how apprently purified Raziel at the end is the same as Raziel now...healing Kain on touch, are you serious? I dont know why you try and argue this if you cannot even do it properly, I dont know a ton on Bowser but at least I am not making ridiculous statements like that. Bowser has strength, but not the wraith blade.

You can see a dark mark of flesh, some blood...for all intents and purposes a scar. You think that blood only bleeds if its being pumped by a heart? because apprently its a hole, if its a hole you would see the broken rips, it would not be a dark mark like it would be if, lets say it was a scar amrite?

Not really, I was highlighting the fact that argueing physical ability is ridiculous when despite it being far more than enough in Kains favour in this thread, it is not Kains best asset.

Its shown that Raziel can do this to a damaged Kain struck by the wraith blade, context young man context, it is proven in SR 2 a max strength Kain can take a far more powerful blow with no damage at all. We have done this, less than 50% more pressure is being used if Bowser strike with his claws at raziels speed, I doubt hes capable of Raziels agility but even then, its barely enough imo to even pierce Kain. I think its hilarious how you bring up a reason for Kains heart missing earlier but then claim he can still be poisoned. Kain is by default immune to poison now isnt he.

"plenty" fast, I have not seen. Also show me him flying and teleporting.

😆 sorry? I dont think flying is somehow going to negate time powers or the reaver, especially not when Kain can also teleport.

I will wait until you make a case for them being lost but why do you assume just because their projectiles Bowser can automatically dodge them all with ease? you know their homing projectiles? and that bowser is not even fast....not sure I have seen greater than human speed from him yet. Blood rain is doubtful? its the best one, since it is not a projectile, its basically just Kain moving his hand slightly and Bowser going into cardiac arrest, his heart bursting and him dieing.

What durability? an iron ball does not>>>millions of tons of force. Show me him "just going" giant form, and then give me the advantage of this because I can only see disadvantages.

Hes going to be teleporting a lot to escape TK, I cannot imagine when hes going to get time to hit Kain if thats all hes doing.

All 3 of those claims have been shot down and rely purely on bowser being able to hit someone who is far faster, can teleport and turn into mist at will to avoid a strike if need be. Then you forget one counter attack with the reaver and Bowser dies.

Kains defence is far superior to Bowser offence which is inferior to Kains offence which can easily defeat Bowsers defence, ergo Kain wins with ease.

I think its certainly clear mr Bowser had no real chance, especially when all his supporters can bring up is claw slashing and jumping as his offence/defence 😛

Against Kain who has a long list of ways of finishing this match, none of which need to be physical anyway I think its clear the thread was made in the hopes of hyping up the whole SM galaxy nonsense, which even if were accepted as being as intense feats as the real celestial anomalies their apprently supposed to represent would not help bowser.

Not at all. 🙂 Turtle soup, anyone?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Been a busy boy? I thought you had gone on holiday without telling 😠

Like I always say, these threads don't end until real life interrupts.

You miss the point, we dont know "thier just" human spears, you also said yourself as I agree thier human weapons, but your the one assuming spears, I could just as rightly claim (more so based on evidence) that they were fired from a device, enchanted by magic used by previous vampire hunters or series of other things. You have seen a launching device, although why do i have to show you the launching device? your just making claims and suggestions, you could no more prove they did it by hand and defeated 9 million tons of durability which is ridiculous than I can prove my far more likely theory that arguably modern man (flame throwers, tech armour) or at least a humanity that have had so many far more higher tech weapons (including those shown in this game) used an unseen siege weapon, sorcerous device etc.

Vorador versus guillotine. Guillotine wins..

Janos Audron versus Sarafan. Sarafan win.

Janos Audron versus Sarafan Lord. Sarafan Lord wins.

Countless Vampires versus Sarafan. Sarafan still win.

See, according to actual Legacy of Kain canon, vampires are always getting slaughtered by humans. This is nothing new. Heck, both Vorador and Janos are a hell of a older than Kain, known as two of the most powerful Vampires in existence, and are repeatedly destroyed by lesser forces. I've just given you quite a few examples of Vampires losing in melee, it is not such a surprise when it goes something like this:

Vampires versus humans. Humans win.

Now that I've gotten evidence out of the way, where is yours? Where is this fabled spear launcher? To all appearances, it does not exist except in your excuses. So give me a reason melee is not a viable explanation given what we know of Vampire combat prowess.

Thats because it can kill them, your making the reaching leap that it destroys them fast based on an old games graphics engine and how fire is rendered, its not just the vampires that burn like that in the game so I could argue perhaps that this is some super heated flame and that both the vampires and the flame are made more flammable from the soul reaver environment. I am not following your twisted interpretation.

You might have a point if I didn't have two cutscenes proving you wrong. You certainly could argue that it is some super flame, but you would of course have no evidence. Unlike the two cutscenes I've shown you four times now.

Thats not impressive, destroying stone? a large industrial furnace is often used to melt metal. not sure thats even a feat, burning a tree to ash is worthless.

Then I'm sure you'll have absolutely no problems showing me that furnace (which, as we all know, has no purpose but to put smoke in the air) destroying either stone or metal in same time frame as Bowser. As Bowser can destroy stone in a fraction of a second. Show me a furnace taking less than a minute if you want to compare. So far, burning a tree to ash is that same fraction of a second puts him rather above any other flame I know of.

2. Hes a powerful sorceror, there could be inumerable suggestions why he can survive.

3. But ariel is not in some unkown hell....and if she was, what is your point?

4. Again, so what? hes standing in hell, the heat does nothing to him so he would not mension it would he, this is the worst point of your quintette because assuming what I said was true he would not mension the flames.

5. However in that scene Kain does not look like any spirit iirc in the series, you brought up Ariel as a good example of a spirit, ghostly and levitating around.

One of the best being his power of life and death, and the underworld. Dark Chronicle in particular seems to agree. Ariel being dead as well makes it similar enough, it's not as if she can feel pain. Mostly because there is no reason for hell to be damaging. What's the fire going to do once you're already dead? Kain's emotions are the things being targeted here. Sure, maybe it's not damaging him as he is there, but his body is not even there. Trying to hell as fire resistance is on of the stupider things I've heard. You're already dead, you have no body, so what's the point? Causing pain is about the only thing left, and that doesn't happen in this case.

Nothing points to that, only your claim, the only proof you have is that humans did it in some form, which I never disputed. I think suggesting they have more weapons than just spears when all previous, older versions of man have far more and indeed, this version have tech armour and flamethrowers is far more likely than humans defeating millions of tons of durability , infact not a single human body is shown there iirc, meaning it may have been a completly ranged effort. Why do you keep claiming siege weapons have to be inside Dumahs throne room?

Everything points to it, actually; see above for Vampires being annihilated by purely melee efforts, and a bloody guillotine of all things. And sure, you certainly could say that it's more likely that some siege weapon was involved, but of course the lack of evidence would again deter that effort. You need to show them having one before you can claim they used it, y'know? Plus, humans seem to have this weird thing about retrieving and burying their dead. Well, about siege weapons in the throne room, that is sort of where Dumah was found: nailed to his chair. Your choices are then limited to a bunch of humans breaking in and stabbing him, or a bunch of humans somehow maneuvering a siege crossbow over the cliff, through Dumah's fortress, and into his throne room, where they then fired it point blank in three different directions in in order to nail him to his chair. Presumably while also fighting off the Dumahim trying to stop them.

Since when can you claim that? A: Defiance Kain sees Blood omen 2 as an alternate event, meaning he has all the powers he had if BO 2 never happened. B: What evidence do you have he lost all his power? Sure Kain is weakened, but I dont recall indication that specific powers are lost to him, only his memory which does not touch the Kain in this thread.

The entire tutorial was Umah teaching Kain how to be a Vampire again. Since he apparently forgot several of his powers, and needed to be reminded that he could, among other things, float and turn into mist. I could also mention that he forgot the Whisper, but that one is stupid and never existed in the first place.

In any case I don't recall how the heck that timeline even works, so I won't pursue it. I was under the impression that Kain gaining new memories meant it happened retroactively, but whatever.

Again ignoring context, honestly I am sure if we were debating Dante from DMC, you would claim he cannot dodge because of several very context sensitive events where he did not.

But Dante doesn't dodge. He lets himself get hit to show off his regeneration. Literally anyone can hit Dante.

Kain going all out to you is him "throwing" Raziel to the floor? 😆 , unfortunatly for bowser, Kain has anything form mist form, greater speed/reactions and a teleport to avoid any strike. Or he could just parry with his sword...killing bowser instantly in the process.

He beat Raziel down, so yes. Bowser has teleportation, flight, and can breath fire in a huge area for a quite a while, preventing Kain from even getting close. I'm not really really seeing Kain's reactions here, and you've seen my evidence on his speed. Bowser could end it just by flying up and showering the area in fire, as he's been known to do. Bowser's a bit to durable for the Soul Reaver to take out that easily.

🙄 Where do you think it struck? his ears, his arms? show me your reach of logic that the wraith blade had no effect on weakening Kain. Holy shit 😆 you know nothing about this series and now your making Quanchi esque claims like how apprently purified Raziel at the end is the same as Raziel now...healing Kain on touch, are you serious? I dont know why you try and argue this if you cannot even do it properly, I dont know a ton on Bowser but at least I am not making ridiculous statements like that. Bowser has strength, but not the wraith blade.

It struck his stomach, obviously, are you not paying attention? If you were, you would surely have seen Kain start to absorb Raziel, just like what happened at the end of the game. It's just what happens when they come into contact. Kain was absorbing Raziel, so he was getting stronger while Raziel got weaker. And yet, Raziel still rips his heart out.

You can see a dark mark of flesh, some blood...for all intents and purposes a scar. You think that blood only bleeds if its being pumped by a heart? because apprently its a hole, if its a hole you would see the broken rips, it would not be a dark mark like it would be if, lets say it was a scar amrite?

Depth. That never stopped being a thing. You can quite clearly see a hole there, both when Raziel ripped it out and after. Seeing as the ribs were not visible when Raziel broke them, I see no reason for them to visible now.

Not really, I was highlighting the fact that argueing physical ability is ridiculous when despite it being far more than enough in Kains favour in this thread, it is not Kains best asset.

Physical ability isn't in Kain's favor though; not sure why you would think so.

Its shown that Raziel can do this to a damaged Kain struck by the wraith blade, context young man context, it is proven in SR 2 a max strength Kain can take a far more powerful blow with no damage at all. We have done this, less than 50% more pressure is being used if Bowser strike with his claws at raziels speed, I doubt hes capable of Raziels agility but even then, its barely enough imo to even pierce Kain. I think its hilarious how you bring up a reason for Kains heart missing earlier but then claim he can still be poisoned. Kain is by default immune to poison now isnt he.

It's shown the source of Kain's healing kills him, yes. While weaker than normal, if you forget that bit of context. The Wraith Blade hardly matters when it struck a completely different area from Kain's chest (stomach, y'know) and merely touching Raziel has been shown to restore Kain. So Kain is stronger and Raziel is weaker, ye he still rips the heart out. Bowser, still being 20 times stronger than Raziel, is still capable of harming Kain in the same way. Though it's not like it really matters when Bowser can breathe fire everywhere. Sure, why not, it's not like the poison is even needed. Kain can't regenerate, can't be poisoned, seems a nice trade.

"plenty" fast, I have not seen. Also show me him flying and teleporting.

Bamf. Poof etc. Sky. High.

You'll notice I assume Bowser starts giant. That would be because he does as much.

😆 sorry? I dont think flying is somehow going to negate time powers or the reaver, especially not when Kain can also teleport.

If Bowser is out of reach, he is out of reach, regardless of how time is going. I'm sure you can show me Kain teleporting that high into mid air, what with his long range teleport only usable when his hands are empty and the dimension reaver far too short ranged.

I will wait until you make a case for them being lost but why do you assume just because their projectiles Bowser can automatically dodge them all with ease? you know their homing projectiles? and that bowser is not even fast....not sure I have seen greater than human speed from him yet. Blood rain is doubtful? its the best one, since it is not a projectile, its basically just Kain moving his hand slightly and Bowser going into cardiac arrest, his heart bursting and him dieing.

All the videos I've posted so far have Bowser being faster than Mario while running or moving. The abilities also are not particularly long ranged; I doubt they reach even 10 meters. In any case, I have doubts they will have too much effect, given Bowser's typical immunity to one-hit kills and certain equipment that can prevent instant death. Or I could simply bring that Bowser cannot die. He simply comes back, animated by sheer hatred even after death. He's fought his way out of hell, then charged right back in, and had a good adventure in heaven, too, before he fought back to the real world.

I mean a drain drain won't work because Bowser has no blood.

What durability? an iron ball does not>>>millions of tons of force. Show me him "just going" giant form, and then give me the advantage of this because I can only see disadvantages.

He's fallen into the sun, a black hole, and was at the second big bang. That puts him above anything Kain could muster. Not to mention, of course, stuff like this. Oh dear, what would we do without this consistency.

Hes going to be teleporting a lot to escape TK, I cannot imagine when hes going to get time to hit Kain if thats all hes doing.

It doesn't really change the fact that Bowser is really big. Possibly too big for Kain's TK. Nor can Kain's TK really stop Bowser from, say, calling down meteorites on top of him.

All 3 of those claims have been shot down and rely purely on bowser being able to hit someone who is far faster, can teleport and turn into mist at will to avoid a strike if need be. Then you forget one counter attack with the reaver and Bowser dies.

Not really. I personally haven't seen anything that makes Kain "far faster" than Bowser, in reactions or movement speed. Bowser has his own teleportation, not to mention summoning meteorites or using lightning powers. Bowser's far out of range of the Reaver and has protection against it.

Kains defence is far superior to Bowser offence which is inferior to Kains offence which can easily defeat Bowsers defence, ergo Kain wins with ease.

I think you got that backwards. Starting to wonder if I should just add the Star Rod and get it over with.

Originally posted by JesterGeorge
This man speaks the truth. Kain is just too strong for Poopa to even go against. With a flick of his wrist, he'll pop Pooopa's brain like jelly, or manhandle him with magic or brute force. The so-called King wouldn't last a minute with Kain in hand fighting, or with magic. Your cute and cuddly turtle thing, lost this round, hard. GG, not really.

Then again, Kain can't really do any of that. Kain has never popped anyone's brain, and his magic manhandling is limited to human sized opponents and so far has lifted nothing of Bowser's size. In brute force, Bowser wins again, what with lifting an iron ball larger than anything Kain has touched. Bowser doesn't need to go hand to hand with Kain, but he is quite capable of winning there.

I suppose people underestimate Bowser simply because his archenemy is Mario? Really, if you just take the time to look at what Bowser has done, you might realize he's a lot better than people give him credit for. But, if it comes to it, we could always just go back to the Star Rod.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Your examples are not soul reaver era vampires, the ones we are discussing that have Raziel looking for ways for killing them. Although to explain, Janos is not powerful like other vampires are, he is a natural vampire. Vorador is durability featless so I dont know what your trying to show although similiar to when humans beat Janos, Moebius' staff is there.

You have yet to prove vampires are losing in melee though, soul reaver era vampires at that. Unless moebius' staff was in this fight as well, in which case thats another thing Bowser does not have.

Give you a reason melee is not viable? 9 million tons of durability, Vampires are faster and stronger than humans, even old era ones and on top of that are pushed and defeated into their little citadel, if vampires could be slaughtered so easily without plot specific reason most vampires would be.

You sort of ignored my claim/counter, you posting the same videos of two vampires burning means nothing. Constantly showing old evidence that has been countered does not help your case, its hardly going to convince me. The LoK world is thick with heavy industry and pollution, it makes sense that flames will be even more intense, either way thats a fact that the SR world has that this verses doesnt, also know what this verses has what this one does not? any of the vampires your using to make your claim, who are vastly different to Kain.

The furnace combusts with such force, it fills the room and blasts the metal door off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E&feature=related#t=8m30s

Ill drop this underworld point, mainly because its irrelevent at the moment. I may bring it up later, but still bringing up how apprently "whats fire going to do once your dead" when Kain is still technically dead, alongside every vampire and many creatures in the series.

He forgot a lot of things, but thats BO2 Kain, an alternate Kain that the modern era kain percieved as new memories that did not replace old ones in the words of the developers, Kain knows everything from both verses.

When he lets them to 😬 or does not bother to dodge.

I dont know about that, because I assume he can only breath fire in one direction, a nice backstab would follow Bowser attempting to breath a single flame. Your evidence is not evidence on speed at all, thats your problem in threads, you post a video and then constantly claim it as definitive proof of your claim regardless of how your opponent recieves your "proof", its just context, I dont see a reason why Kain would hesitate to mist dodge, teleport or pull Bowsers head off. A bit too durable based on? hes yet to show 9 million tons of resistance, and I was not even talking about the power, it devours souls, I have yet to see bowsers resistance to this.

Erm no, again look into the story. Kain is not absorbing anyone, the Reaver is which has no benefit for Kain, hell Kain did not even know it was going to happen. The wraith blade strikes across Kains entire stomach and chest, its more than big enough and if you did not notice, the hole that Raziel made covers those areas.

Because Raziels hand is not in the way, nor is pouring bits of blood in the last scene, we get a clear look of what you belive is a hole...there are no ribs, broken flesh just a dark mark that your reaching to be a hole when the developers and I say a scar.

Originally posted by The Scenario

I think being faster, higher reactions, greater durability and the ability to kill in a strike is pretty far in Kains favour.

😆 the most powerful weapon in the series and the only difference in Raziels favour from the last time he failed on harming Kain does not matter, stop reaching. I will come back to this point when you stop claiming Kain is somehow getting stronger and ignoring the reaver and previous evidence, I have FMV proof showing Kain is completly invulerable to a more powerful physical strike than Raziel here, difference being my evidence directly relates to the scene so unlike when you claim over and over how you have the evidence, this is relevent 🙂

First, what the hell....the first few videos are teleports, we dont know how long it took him to re-apear but I was talking physical speed. The second is mario running around an old version of him, not sure how thats relevent and the last ones are him flying around? fairly slowly at that, is that all you have?

Ok, so make your choice, is this super mario galaxy Bowser or the one holding up the iron ball. You realise this large bowser cannot even smash a small planetoid, probably smaller/lighter than the iron ball earlier and made of some sort of brick (filled with lava making it even worse a feat).

Your making the claim now that Kain can only teleport once? although tbh, distance is irrelevent since distance is speed/mass between two points and Kain does not physically travel distance and the dimension reaver can reach dimentional, I dont see how a few meters is going to be much to it and again the claim he has to put the reaver away to teleport just because he "did", you seem to have a problem with context/choice then claim someone has to, e.g. bowser "has" to fly to call meteors, bowser "has" to be large to even fly apprently. Also bowser will not be able to get out of reach when hes slowly moving like a slug in a time null zone...

Their range? their homing bolts of energy, they will find him eventually but again, hes not fast at all and gameplay claims wont help you here. Also how does that prove he has no blood.

😆 I like how you make these claims as if that means anything, the sun is a tiny ball of lava, the blackhole has no more gravitational pull than a sink plug hole on water, it can barely pull in the tinty balls of rock that constist of Super mario galaxy planets. These are not feats at all, its not even clear if hes struck by anything or harmed. Again, how does this prove he can survive 9 million tons PSI? infact its more than that, possibly as much as 18 million if Kain uses his sword and rips out Bowsers soul at the same time.

Yes because thats going to be effective, slow moving meteors that can barely daamge the weak piece of rock they were fighting on.

Dimetional teleport is faster than anything Bowser has attacked/reacted to, Kains reactions are insane during the point zero seconds he makes actions between teleports. Out of range? one teleport, protection? where?

I am starting to wonder if you should just concede and try and look past your pride in the future rather than picking about gameplay mechanics and making such general claims.

I dont know what the star rod is, but I doubt it is standard issue equipment for Bowser.

-Quickly looked it up, what use is this rod going to be? you going to pull some no limit fallacy/overhype to claim its going to grant any wish he wants when he could not even defeat Mario? who later canceled its affects out with some sort of "beam" apprently. Just a rough research but unless you have really good feats for the rod, claiming a no limit fallacy for not standard issue equipment is useless.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Then again, Kain can't really do any of that. Kain has never popped anyone's brain

And bowsers never used his claws to slash through 9 million tons of durability. Also, Kain effects blood with his TK, proving he can target something as small as blood particles or as such a low density as a fluid within a body, he has also proven to be able to manipulate things at least as heavy as a human in armour, ergo he has everything he needs to suggest he could create TK pressure in Bowsers brain but he has actual actions to suggest (with his blood TK control) he can send blood spraying throught bowsers body, sending his heart into melt down.

Godamnit it, BT. I hate having to post in this but your math is wrong. As has been highlighted before. You use a falsely inflated number for Raziel's strength and attempt to multiply it by abusing the idea of a small surface area.

272 000 J. This is Raziel's strength per his best feat.

272 000 N.

1N = 0.224808943 foot pound force.

27200N = 61148/144 = 424 lb/i^2

That's about 30 tons over a full foot, here's where I'm a total jackass.

Raziel pierced Kain not with just the tips of his claws, but fit his entire hand into Kain's chest. This has a lot more surface area than a millimeter. 😄

I once used a square foot for the combined size of OoT Link's hands to be generous. Let's use 1/4 of that, size square inches for the entire surface area of Raziel's considerably large hand.

This comes to 244592 pounds over thirty-six square inches. 122 tons total. Enough to tear Kain's heart clean out. What's that per inch, as per our standardized measurement? 6794.2 lbs/i^2. IE, it takes less than 4 tons of PSI to open Kain up.

Invulnerable to nine million tons of force my ass. 😐