Smith vs. Anakin (Lord Vader)

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Disagree all you want, screen feats don't lie.

And this is giant load of bullshit for a counterargument.
No, Anakin doesn't have the TK feats to even come close to holding someone as strong as Smith in place. Nice try...but that's not going to fly.

Also, why would force choke work, at all...when, "Do you think that's air your breathing? Hmm?"

Not once was Smith out of breath during his whole ordeal...and for a good reason: he doesn't need to breath because he's a damn program that can do pretty much what he wants.

He can fly. 😬

Originally posted by dadudemon
And this is giant load of bullshit for a counterargument.
No, Anakin doesn't have the TK feats to even come close to holding someone as strong as Smith in place. Nice try...but that's not going to fly.

Also, why would force choke work, at all...when, "Do you think that's air your breathing? Hmm?"

Not once was Smith out of breath during his whole ordeal...and for a good reason: he doesn't need to breath because he's a damn program that can do pretty much what he wants.

He can fly. 😬

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, so this is where you tell me at which part in the SW movies was it implied that a force hold can be broken with brute force.

It was implied/shown that weight and mass factor in. Otherwise Yoda would have stopped and moved aside those couple tons of rubble as easily as Darth Maul flung his small chunk of debris.

So if Yoda(one of the most powerful) strained like he was taking a shit to move a couple tons, someone who can exert enough force that his punches cause shock-waves (and fly) would be a huge problem to hold, if it all.

We've gone over this before.

Originally posted by Robtard
It was implied/shown that weight and mass factor in. Otherwise Yoda would have stopped and moved aside those couple tons of rubble as easily as Darth Maul flung his small chunk of debris.

So if Yoda(one of the most powerful) strained like he was taking a shit to move a couple tons, someone who can exert enough force that his punches cause shock-waves (and fly) would be a huge problem to hold, if it all.

We've gone over this before.

He seemed to move the x-wing easily enough, but the couple of tons was probably heavier...and the podium that was flung at him which he stopped and then threw back...that was probably lighter as well

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Disagree all you want, screen feats don't lie.

[b] Depends.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, so this is where you tell me at which part in the SW movies was it implied that a force hold can be broken with brute force.

It is at this point that you show me where force TK is shown to be strong enough to hold a multi-ton lifter and super-sonic flyer in place.

Not the other way around, RJ. You have it backwards. The burden is on YOU to prove that they have force TK strong enough to do so.

You lack the feats. In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)

Not going to cut it, obviously. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is at this point that you show me where force TK is shown to be strong enough to hold a multi-ton lifter and super-sonic flyer in place.

Not the other way around, RJ. You have it backwards. The burden is on YOU to prove that they have force TK strong enough to do so.

You lack the feats. In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)

Not going to cut it, obviously. 🙂

The claim is that brute force can break a force hold. Claims must be backed up with proof. It's like if I say Preston is fast enough to avoid being shot by someone. I must show feats that prove this, it's not up to you to prove he can't, because you are not making the claim, I am. THAT'S when the burden of proof falls on me.

On a side note, we do see Yoda force lifting an X Wing. Which produces more resistance? Smith's brute strength, or the weight of the X Wing?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, people that claim brute force can break a force hold must show where in the SW movies it is implied this is possible.

"No the other way around, RJ. You have it backwards. The burden is on YOU to prove that they have force TK strong enough to do so.

You lack the feats. In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)"

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The claim is that brute force can break a force hold. Claims must be backed up with proof. It's like if I say Preston is fast enough to avoid being shot by someone. I must show feats that prove this, it's not up to you to prove he can't, because you are not making the claim, I am. THAT'S when the burden of proof falls on me.

"In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)"

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
On a side note, we do see Yoda force lifting an X Wing. Which produces more resistance? Smith's brute strength, or the weight of the X Wing?

Holding up that multi-ton pillar was a better force TK feat. The X-Wing is a light smallish aircraft built out of "futuristic" and "ultra-light' materials. Sure, it weighs more than a rock, but the best force lifting feat is that large pillar Yoda caught.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"No the other way around, RJ. You have it backwards. The burden is on YOU to prove that they have force TK strong enough to do so.

You lack the feats. In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)"

"In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)"

Holding up that multi-ton pillar was a better force TK feat. The X-Wing is a light smallish aircraft built out of "futuristic" and "ultra-light' materials. Sure, it weighs more than a rock, but the best force lifting feat is that large pillar Yoda caught.

Speaking of lacking feats, we never see Smith use brute strength to simply walk or fly out of a force hold. See what I did there?

OK so your theory is that Yoda can lift X Wings and that pillar and hold them in place, but not a struggling Smith, using all of his brute strength, right?

So if Anakin force holds Smith, Smith will lol and simply walk or fly out of it?

Originally posted by dadudemon
"No the other way around, RJ. You have it backwards. The burden is on YOU to prove that they have force TK strong enough to do so.
a rock, but the best force lifting feat is that large pillar Yoda caught.

I said that Anakin can simply force hold Smith in place.

You are claiming that via brute strength, Smith will >>>>>Force hold. It is at this point that you are the one who must provide proof that Smith, via brute strength, can >>>>>Force hold.

Yes, AFTER you made the claim that Smith can >>>> Force hold via brute strength, I asked where in the SW movies was it implied that brute strength >>>>> Force hold, but that was a counter claim to your initial claim.

Now, I have provided what is as close to proof as possible with Yoda's feat of lifting an X Wing, and you quoted his feat of force hold/lifting the multi ton pillar. There you have it, that's as close to proof as we are gonna get on my end. I made the claim, I named the proof.

Now, on your end, you must quote where Smith, via brute strength, overcame a TK hold strong enough to lift an X Wing or the multi ton pillar.

2-1 me, your turn.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Speaking of lacking feats, we never see Smith use brute strength to simply walk or fly out of a force hold. See what I did there?

OK so your theory is that Yoda can lift X Wings and that pillar and hold them in place, but not a struggling Smith, using all of his brute strength, right?

So if Anakin force holds Smith, Smith will lol and simply walk or fly out of it?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So Yoda feats apply to Vader now ?

But you're right, let's discuss Vader feats. Fact remains that Vader was shown TKing several items of varying sizes, and that Smith was never, not once, shown muscling out of a TK hold. To say that he can is pure speculation. Naturally the heavier the object, the harder it is to TK it. But it was never shown that someone who has been TK'd can resist via brute force.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am talking about the Force in general.

But you're right, let's discuss Vader feats. Fact remains that Vader was shown TKing several items of varying sizes, and that Smith was never, not once, shown muscling out of a TK hold. To say that he can is pure speculation.

You also forget Smith controls the matrix world pretty much and since you made the claim it's up to you to prove it. Tking grunts and your gf doesn't cut it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
But one can say with great certainty that the force resisting the force user puts an undue strain on him/her. Sp since vader tk'd his gf is that proof he can tk Smith ?

You also forget Smith controls the matrix world pretty much and since you made the claim it's up to you to prove it. Tking grunts and your gf doesn't cut it.

You're tap dancing. Never, in any SW movies, did a live person resisting, make the TKer exert more force. You think Obi Wan was not struggling when Dooku force held him in ROTS? He was struggling like mad, but Dooku lol'd and threw him across the room.

Lulz, if you're gonna pull that card, "Smith controls the Matrix", then this thread is spite. He can just will Anakin away. MVF fights are to take place on a neutral battlefield where all of each combatants powers work on the other. Even DDM will admit this.

Bottom line is this: TK does not exist in the Matrix, so who's to say Smith can control Anakin's TK? It's a foreign power, the Matrix will not recognize it. Also, one more time, Smith has no "anti-TK" feats.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You're tap dancing. Never, in any SW movies, did a live person resisting, make the TKer exert more force. You think Obi Wan was not struggling when Dooku force held him in ROTS? He was struggling like mad, but Dooku lol'd and threw him across the room.

Lulz, if you're gonna pull that card, "Smith controls the Matrix", then this thread is spite. He can just will Anakin away. MVF fights are to take place on a neutral battlefield where all of each combatants powers work on the other. Even DDM will admit this.

Bottom line is this: TK does not exist in the Matrix, so who's to say Smith can control Anakin's TK? It's a foreign power, the Matrix will not recognize it. Also, one more time, Smith has no "anti-TK" feats.

I'm not saying he will alter the environment to get an unfair advantage but to act like Anakin is going to overpower him in a world he controls is ridiculous.

There's three reasons why it won't work to achieve victory here.

1.Never been used on anyone as powerful or quick as Smith.
2.It's never been used easily in a sw movie against a highly skilled opponent. It's all about catching someone off guard. Even when it's caught someone off guard it's never held them in place to oneshot kill them.
3.With Smith's control I doubt he can hold him in the matirx for any time if at all.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dude you're wrong.

I said that Anakin can simply force hold Smith in place.

You are claiming that via brute strength, Smith will >>>>>Force hold. It is at this point that you are the one who must provide proof that Smith, via brute strength, can >>>>>Force hold.

Yes, AFTER you made the claim that Smith can >>>> Force hold via brute strength, I asked where in the SW movies was it implied that brute strength >>>>> Force hold, but that was a counter claim to your initial claim.

"No the other way around, RJ. You have it backwards. The burden is on YOU to prove that they have force TK strong enough to do so.

You lack the feats. In fact, we DO see the limit in Force TK being shown: Yoda and Sidious. They certainly pushed the limits and their final fight certainly was the best showing. They strained quite a bit and there is no doubt they were the strongest in force mastery, on screen. (Sure, Anakin may have been the strongest in the force, but his force mastery never eclipses that of Yoda and Sidious.)"

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Now, I have provided what is as close to proof as possible with Yoda's feat of lifting an X Wing, and you quoted his feat of force hold/lifting the multi ton pillar. There you have it, that's as close to proof as we are gonna get on my end. I made the claim, I named the proof.

Now, on your end, you must quote where Smith, via brute strength, overcame a TK hold strong enough to lift an X Wing or the multi ton pillar.

2-1 me, your turn.

The strength required to create those multiple shockwaves actually shows force requirements well beyond thousands of tons.

Let's go low end and estimate the shockwaves created only amounted to a 1 cubic km sphere.

It was raining so the density of the air is significantly greater than is shown on this website, but just to give you a mild taste of how ridiculous your question is:

http://greenearthfacts.com/weather/how-much-does-a-cloud-weigh/

So just the shockwaves from the punches they were throwning have a greater force than 1,003,000,000 kg (over a million tonnes). Do I even need to remind you of how much weaker a shockwave that originated from a punch to a rigid body, is? Yes, we are talking a factor of a thousand or more.

Obviously, the massive punch he throws at Neo towards the very end of their fight (where Neo falls to the earth and Agent Smith accelerates that fall) encompasses the entire city (meaning, its far greater than just 1 spherical km).

I have a major problem with having to even explain this little bit to you. You're not serious, just trolling, and already know your argument failed. You thought that people could not support their argument or something? That's just stupid. The entire fight sequence proves that.

Neo taking off at the end of Matrix and the beginning of Reloaded has such a steep acceleration vector that he could easily take off with thousands of tons in tow.

Stop trying to keep the thread alive with null arguments.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am talking about the Force in general.

But you're right, let's discuss Vader feats. Fact remains that Vader was shown TKing several items of varying sizes, and that Smith was never, not once, shown muscling out of a TK hold. To say that he can is pure speculation. Naturally the heavier the object, the harder it is to TK it. But it was never shown that someone who has been TK'd can resist via brute force.

You're applying a no limit fallacy to the Force.

No different than you saying "Yoda can lift a multi-trillion ton mountain" and then making someone else prove that he can't or it's true.

This thread is funny.

RJ's getting pounded... again

He likes it, the slvt.