Originally posted by leonidasIt's all about personal interpretation.
what was the author's intent? who is the author's target audience? i'd say the answer to the first question he wanted to have flash moving below c. it was said not once, but twice. the general audience for comics? probably kids? young teens? at the least, i'd certainly doubt the book was 'targetted' at math majors, or at a group of people like those here who dissect and apply real world math to comicbook feats.i'd say that in the minds of most who read the book, who did no more than they were SUPPOSED to do (ie-read and enjoy the story) what happened was what was SAID to have happened. how was this logical contradication between 'facts' and 'story' discovered? by viewing the story in a way it was NOT intended to be viewed.
is there ambiguity? of course there is. there is almost ALWAYS ambiguity of some sort or another. should this scene be tossed out like sm vs fl? sure. but just note that no problem would have arisen if a specified and, imo, unintended level of scrutiny were not applied to the scene in the first place. i've never had a problem simply taking the scene at face value.
If you factor in all of the facts, it does seem like it would require Flash moving well beyond c to achieve that feat.
a.) The issue prior we see Flash in Japan fighting Fernus alongside the JLA:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7281/38966503.jpg
Confirmation they were in Japan at the time:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/38791748.jpg/
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b.) We see Superman chasing after the final bomb, but failing to stop it before it hit Chongjin:
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7317/96134227.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/838/12682944.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8100/45240434.jpg
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c.) Next issue we see that Flash was able to make it from Japan to Chongjin North Korea- which equates to a flight distance of roughly 660 miles, AND save half a million people, in .00001 microseconds:
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1791/21551235.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9154/69134853.jpg
Tack that onto the very specific figures the narrator gave us in that scene, and I definitely see how it can be looked at both ways.
Originally posted by Galan007
It's all about personal interpretation.If you factor in all of the facts, it does seem like it would require Flash moving well beyond c to achieve that feat.
a.) The issue prior we see Flash in Japan fighting Fernus alongside the JLA:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7281/38966503.jpgConfirmation they were in Japan at the time:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/38791748.jpg/
---
b.) We see Superman chasing after the final bomb, but failing to stop it before it hit Chongjin:
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7317/96134227.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/838/12682944.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8100/45240434.jpg
---
c.) Next issue we see that Flash was able to make it from Japan to Chongjin North Korea- which equates to a flight distance of roughly 660 miles, AND save half a million people, in .00001 microseconds:
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1791/21551235.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9154/69134853.jpgTack that onto the very specific figures the narrator gave us in that scene, and I definitely see how it can be looked at both ways.
i'll disagree. why? because i don't believe it was intended to be viewed with that level of scrutiny, i don't think it was meant to be looked at holistically like that. in bringing all that to bear, you've ENHANCED the scrutiny. the average reader would never go to all that trouble, i don't believe for a moment the author expected them to. i'd wager if we ASKED him, he'd say the same thing. but that's just my opinion.
in any event, do you disagree that the author's INTENT in that scene was to have him moving below the speed of light?
Originally posted by leonidas
tbh, i think the VAST majority of people have entirely no concept at all of the speed of light. certainly i'd feel safe in wagering the intended target audience for most comicbooks wouldn't understand c, or the implications of that scene. 😬
Thats true. Quite frankly i find it ridiculous to think that he intended such a level of scrutiny to be given to feat.....and would still go ahead and indicate the speed it was performed at.
Originally posted by leonidasHe gave all the possible data - from the number of people in the specific town, to the distance he carried them to, the method through which he carried them and the specific time interval it took to do so - to the point that he did it with a ridiculous precision of 0.00001 microseconds, even specifying the very small subdivision of a second (micro) of that very specific number.
i'll disagree. why? because i don't believe it was intended to be viewed with that level of scrutiny
I don't see how that's any less small detail analysis compared to what we're doing, which is simply applying speed = distance/time, him already having clearly and precisely specified both of those.
ermmnone
Originally posted by Philosophía
He gave all the possible data - from the number of people in the specific town, to the distance he carried them to, the method through which he carried them and the specific time interval it took to do so - to the point that he did it with a ridiculous precision of 0.00001 microseconds, even specifying the very small subdivision of a second (micro) of that very specific number.I don't see how that's any less small detail analysis compared to what we're doing, which is simply applying speed = distance/time, him already having clearly and precisely specified both of those.
ermmnone
You honestly don't think taking an equation and figuring out math is any more complicated or time consuming then a writer FLAT OUT IN A FEW WORDS SAYING HOW FAST HE WAS GOING. What it comes down to is intent and the intent is clearly on the side of below c.
Originally posted by leonidasThere's really no 'trouble' to be found in what I just posted.
i'll disagree. why? because i don't believe it was intended to be viewed with that level of scrutiny, i don't think it was meant to be looked at holistically like that. in bringing all that to bear, you've ENHANCED the scrutiny. the average reader would never go to all that trouble, i don't believe for a moment the author expected them to.
Assuming the reader wasn't retarded (sorry, the "R word"😉, they would know that Flash was in Japan when the bomb went off in Korea. Thus they would know that the first step in him saving those people was for him to run from Japan to North Korea.
Then they would find out in the next issue that on top of running the aforementioned distance, Flash also saved 500,000+ people by carrying each of them 35 miles away (one way), and did all of this in .00001 microseconds. He saved an entire city's populace in .00001 microseconds.
And any reader who knew anything about Flash would know that he routinely breaks the light speed barrier, even when he's not trying as hard as he was in that scene. That said, I can see why many readers would look at that feat and say "there is no possible way he could have done that, or have been that spent afterward, if he weren't going all-out... And below light speed is FAR from all-out for Flash."
Originally posted by leonidasI gave my opinion to KT on this matter, I believe.
in any event, do you disagree that the author's INTENT in that scene was to have him moving below the speed of light?
Originally posted by Philosophía
I don't see how that's any less small detail analysis compared to what we're doing, which is simply applying speed = distance/time, him already having clearly and precisely specified both of those.ermmnone
do you really (i mean this as an honest question) believe the author intended for his audience to break out ANY math equation, regardless of its complexity?
no one else answered, so maybe you will: do YOU think it was the the author's intent that flash was moving BELOW c?
Originally posted by Galan007
There's really no 'trouble' to be found in what I just posted.Assuming the reader wasn't retarded (sorry, the "R word"😉, they would know that Flash was in Japan when the bomb went off in Korea. Thus they would know that the first step in him saving those people was for him to run from Japan to North Korea.
Then they would find out in the next issue that on top of running the aforementioned distance, Flash also saved 500,000+ people by carrying each of them 35 miles away (one way), and did all of this in .00001 microseconds. He saved an entire city's populace in .00001 microseconds.
And any reader who knew anything about Flash would know that he routinely breaks the light speed barrier, even when he's not trying as hard as he was in that scene. That said, I can see why many people would look at that feat and say "there is no possible way he could have done that without going all-out, and below light speed is definitely not all-out for Flash."
I gave my opinion to KT on this matter, I believe.
meh, i'll still disagree. to me most would simply read it, as opposed to viewing it as you and some others have. you're right--most readers WOULD know he can travel faster than c. however, in order to arrive at the conclusion that he HAD to have been going faster than c in that particular scene would first, entail ignoring what was written, and second, taking time to try and figure out WHY there is a contradication.
imo, i seriously doubt the author would expect anyone to bother.
Originally posted by leonidasWell I believe he wanted Flash to save the city in the small amount of time after the bomb blew up. He made an error and put in light speed, that's what I think. Doesn't mean Flash didn't do the feat, IMO.
the people intended to read it wouldn't think it was so obviously beyond c, least not imo. speaking for myself, i simply read it, and never thought anything of it until it was brought up here years back.i agree--he wanted the city saved. but he went out of his way--twice--to specify BELOW c. do you disagree that that was his intention?
imo, it was pretty clear his intention was to have flash moving below c. for me, that's good enough.
Originally posted by leonidasI'm not disagreeing with you- just stating why/how the feat is ambiguous, and can be argued both ways.
meh, i'll still disagree. to me most would simply read it, as opposed to viewing it as you and some others have. you're right--most readers WOULD know he can travel faster than c. however, in order to arrive at the conclusion that he HAD to have been going faster than c in that particular scene would first, entail ignoring what was written, and second, taking time to try and figure out WHY there is a contradication.imo, i seriously doubt the author would expect anyone to bother.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well I believe he wanted Flash to save the city in the small amount of time after the bomb blew up. He made an error and put in light speed, that's what I think. Doesn't mean Flash didn't do the feat, IMO.
so you think he wrote BELOW lightspeed TWICE on... accident? you don't think he INTENDED flash to be moving below c?
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not disagreeing with you- just stating why/how the feat is ambiguous, and can be argued both ways.
oh, i said a long time ago i think the feat should be inadmissible in the forum. because in the forum is the only place you FIND this level of scrutiny. imo though, i think the intent of the author was clear is all, and i've personally never had an issue with taking it at face value.
Originally posted by leonidasI agree.
oh, i said a long time ago i think the feat should be inadmissible in the forum. because in the forum is the only place you FIND this level of scrutiny.imo though, i think the intent of the author was clear is all, and i've personally never had an issue with taking it at face value.
Personally, I think Flash had to have been going above c to accomplish that feat, based on the very specific figures we were given by the 'omniscient' narrator... But on the other hand, the 'omniscient' narrator also said he was moving < c, so an argument really can't be made on either side. Ambiguity is a b*tch.
g007-psyduck
Originally posted by leonidas'Ey, dude 😎
oh, i said a long time ago i think the feat should be inadmissible in the forum. because in the forum is the only place you FIND this level of scrutiny. imo though, i think the intent of the author was clear is all, and i've personally never had an issue with taking it at face value.
In a Surfer vs Flash race thread, I had worked out Flash's speed in this much-discussed incident. It came out to about 2 million cee. However, I agree: I believe that what the narrator states overrides any calculation. It's what the feat was meant to be. Personally, I don't like it; I wish writers would be more mindful.
Originally posted by Mindship
'Ey, dude 😎
😂
yo! been a while. hope RL is treating you all right.
In a Surfer vs Flash race thread, I had worked out Flash's speed in this much-discussed incident. It came out to about 2 million cee. However, I agree: I believe that what the narrator states overrides any calculation. It's what the feat was meant to be. Personally, I don't like it; I wish writers would be more mindful. [/B]
i would agree that they should be more careful. in their defense, i think they KNOW it's a comicbook, have an exceptional knowledge of their audience, and also likely know (in general) they WON'T be held accountable for these types of errors as these types of errors generally are NOT caught by the audience.
in short, i guess it makes the life of forum members difficult--but, since they aren't written to be dissected in a forum, i really doubt whether the people actually writing this stuff care all that much about what we find once we've examined things under a microscope. just my opinion of course.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Or he made an error.He wrote the exact numbers and the drawing supports it. I'd go with that myself.
imo, he pulled the numbers out of his butt, never bothering to check and assuming the majority of his readers wouldn't either. and i'd think the vast majority never would check. if he erred in the speed, he was adamant about the error. however, your perogative. i choose occam's razor.
