Right. I remember no name being by himself on that issue. I simply suggested removing the plot device from him.
I think there's a balance. I hate the feat skewing you see (particularly in the versus forum) where people use the fact that characters have "more feats" as a reason they win. Obviously other media aren't going to have decades of "feats" in the way comics do. Or they're like games where you get an ending every once in a while. Sometimes you have to improvise. By the same token you don't assign some unproven level of power either simply by speculation.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Right. I remember no name being by himself on that issue. I simply suggested removing the plot device from him.I think there's a balance. I hate the feat skewing you see (particularly in the versus forum) where people use the fact that characters have "more feats" as a reason they win. Obviously other media aren't going to have decades of "feats" in the way comics do. Or they're like games where you get an ending every once in a while. Sometimes you have to improvise. By the same token you don't assign some unproven level of power either simply by speculation.
Oh I seek balance too.
See, my biggest problem in this case is that Innominate is trying to admit evidence solely based on vague extrapolation of lore. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I am saying that there is no possible way to demonstrate it's effectoveness or lack thereof. Suspected capability vs demonstrated capability. If I let that go, we may as well intoduce non-canon elements, and you know what that leads to better than most eh? 😉
That said, I don't mind using lore as a benchmarker as long as it can be proven at the very least within the powerset, and does not rely on plot devices or fallacies.
Innominate has utilised several of both in order to make a case, and I'm simply tearing down those speculations with proof. I've not flamed him, I've not attacked him, and I havn't baited him. Unlike Quan, and perhaps SamZ, I really think this is a case of ignorance more than any arrogance, and that to me makes this go-around easier to deal with.
Strength feats? If you wanna base it on that i guess... Like i said before strength alone doesn't win a fight.. Plus orochi doesn't actually fight just uses his powers... Doesn't display his strength just power which is very supernatural in nature... So there's no way to measure or calculate his power accurately...and as far as the kof story, he's the strongest being thus far, and that is why even to the latest instalment they're trying to tap into his power...
And as for DSZ, i wasn't intentionally trying to make a mess of the quotes haha... My apologies.. And for the rest of the stuff... I understand said faits are powerful and imo akuma's probably the strongest character in SF (that is until someone else jumps out with stronger feats), but mostly like i said i use the story and character info to sum up my conclusion of this theoretical fight... And summing it all up is why i stated (or claimed as you put it) that orochi was defeated by the 3 treasures because they were the only ones to be able to seal it away, it would be nice if other info were given but it seems that without the yata mirror you won't be able to defeat it... And in that sense you're right, his durability has never been tested by other means, so it leaves no choice but to go with what's stated... So you can keep relying on feats and ill relying on the story and context of it 🙂
Originally posted by Innominate__1
And as for DSZ, i wasn't intentionally trying to make a mess of the quotes haha... My apologies..
Ok.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
And for the rest of the stuff... I understand said faits are powerful and imo akuma's probably the strongest character in SF (that is until someone else jumps out with stronger feats), but mostly like i said i use the story and character info to sum up my conclusion of this theoretical fight...
If that's the case, then your relying on an incolplete picture of the situation. You cannot dismiss feats in favour of portrayal, especially if that prtrayain is simply an interpretation.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
And summing it all up is why i stated (or claimed as you put it) that orochi was defeated by the 3 treasures because they were the only ones to be able to seal it away, it would be nice if other info were given but it seems that without the yata mirror you won't be able to defeat it... And in that sense you're right, his durability has never been tested by other means, so it leaves no choice but to go with what's stated... So you can keep relying on feats and ill relying on the story and context of it 🙂
No, because that creates, as I said, a no-limits fallacy.
...
We don't allow fallacies here. it's really that simple.
Originally posted by Innominate__1Orochi has never shown any sort of ability coming from said ''supernatural forces'' that could help him winning against Akuma.
Strength feats? If you wanna base it on that i guess... Like i said before strength alone doesn't win a fight.. Plus orochi doesn't actually fight just uses his powers... Doesn't display his strength just power which is very supernatural in nature... So there's no way to measure or calculate his power accurately...and as far as the kof story, he's the strongest being thus far, and that is why even to the latest instalment they're trying to tap into his power...
And summing it all up is why i stated (or claimed as you put it) that orochi was defeated by the 3 treasures because they were the only ones to be able to seal it away, it would be nice if other info were given but it seems that without the yata mirror you won't be able to defeat it... And in that sense you're right, his durability has never been tested by other means, so it leaves no choice but to go with what's stated...Except storywise Orochi has never crossed paths with a mountain shatterer to say he can survive that. So, we can just assume he wouldn't until / unless proven otherwise.
The problem with Orochi is that he lives on plot devicies ans deus ex, but SNK never really gave us a precise statement of his destructive power, defence, etc.
I assume that is a safe bet to think that Orochi is stronger than Goenitz.
Is stated that "Orochi is invulnerable to humans", but since Oni "is not human" and Gill "ah, ah, ah, ah. He's your god" it doesn't count 😛
Woah, it happened here too.. Ok well as you can see on orochi's list of powers/abilites (snk wiki or any other snk website) it states he's capable of regeneration, TK, TP(telepathy), translocate, soul damage (attacking) power, shooting those wierd projectiles from his hands (that negate every other projectile or power ingame), making pillars of energy (similar to goenitz's cyclones), and that harmful light (as in visible light) that engulfs the whole screen.. I know, pretty much these are summed up from game mechanics, but still these abilities are attributed to him thus far, using the context from the story to conclude this is an entity ''metahuman'', something not human, which has alot of other characters tapping into it's power... I don't see why a mountain splitting or rock splitting technic would be needed here... Orochi doesn't fight that way... And im not disputing the fact that it has ''no-limits'' (which are not allowed... ididnt know that, im Sorry.. @DSZ haha..!!) he just simply posses these abilities, where these 3 said characters don't (he posseses them all at once btw)... This isn't a contest of ''who can destroy more things'' it's who'd win... Who's got more abilities? Who's the MAIN villian in the story arc and supernatural? I'm just using common sense here, and as far as the story goes, obviously he isn't invulnerable (if there was a way to seal it without the mirror i'd concede) but stops being a threat when it's sealed in the yata mirror... That's why i bring in the 3 treasures into this argument, cause canonwise, we've never really seen orochi, (what you see in '97 is a possesed and altered version of chris) so it's form of the 8-headed serpent might be it's true form, in any case, so until the story provides more info i don't see you all stopping... But you guys are right about one thing... There's no way to prove how inmeasurable orochi's said abilities are... on a side note: i don't see why it bothers you guys so much.... 🙂
Akuma has demonstrated a better set of abilities than Orochi, specially in the cutscenes. And Akuma has nothing to do with the KOF series, so pointing out that Orochi is the main villain in ''the story arc'' is meaningless since Akuma belongs to a different series. Besides, no one in the KOF series has shown a level of power not even comparable to Akuma's.
Like I said before, the evidence we have at hand says Akuma would win this match for himself. With SNK releasing more information in the future this scenario may or may not change, only the future will tell. But for now with the evidence we have at hand to work with, the only way to make justice to the characters in this thread is to give this match to the one with better and more concrete evidence to back him up, which happens to be Akuma.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
Woah, it happened here too.. Ok well as you can see on orochi's list of powers/abilites (snk wiki or any other snk website) it states he's capable of regeneration, TK, TP(telepathy), translocate, soul damage (attacking) power, shooting those wierd projectiles from his hands (that negate every other projectile or power ingame), making pillars of energy (similar to goenitz's cyclones), and that harmful light (as in visible light) that engulfs the whole screen..
Yes? And? What can those things do to Akuma? You can list all the powers in the universe if you like, it doesn;t mean a thing when they arn't quantified.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
I know, pretty much these are summed up from game mechanics, but still these abilities are attributed to him thus far, using the context from the story to conclude this is an entity ''metahuman'', something not human, which has alot of other characters tapping into it's power...
So.... We give orochi the feats of other characters? is that what your suggesting?
No, thats not the way a debate works.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
I don't see why a mountain splitting or rock splitting technic would be needed here... Orochi doesn't fight that way... And im not disputing the fact that it has ''no-limits'' (which are not allowed... ididnt know that, im Sorry.. @DSZ haha..!!) he just simply posses these abilities, where these 3 said characters don't (he posseses them all at once btw)...
because orochi has never demonstrated the ability to defend against that much force?
Originally posted by Innominate__1
This isn't a contest of ''who can destroy more things'' it's who'd win... Who's got more abilities? Who's the MAIN villian in the story arc and supernatural? I'm just using common sense here, and as far as the story goes, obviously he isn't invulnerable (if there was a way to seal it without the mirror i'd concede) but stops being a threat when it's sealed in the yata mirror...
It's not a contest of "Who has more abilities" but also of how effective those abilities actually are. Case in point, Ryu vs Akuma, all out. Ryu posesses a similar skill and power set to Akuma, but nowhere near Akuma's scale. Akuma would roflestomp him into the ground currently.
No. Orochi's place in the story is of no consequence to his battle capability. At all.
common sense didctates the use of canon capability to resolve a fight, not "Character portrayal" form a story his opponent is not a part of.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
That's why i bring in the 3 treasures into this argument, cause canonwise, we've never really seen orochi, (what you see in '97 is a possesed and altered version of chris) so it's form of the 8-headed serpent might be it's true form, in any case, so until the story provides more info i don't see you all stopping... But you guys are right about one thing... There's no way to prove how inmeasurable orochi's said abilities are... on a side note: i don't see why it bothers you guys so much.... 🙂
The 3 treasures are a plot device, thus are irrelevant.
Orochi's 8-headed demon form has never been seen, so you cannot quantify that, period.
Ok, let me ask you this: If I came in and said "Akuma wins because he is a secret boss in SSF2T and SFA, thats 2 games more than Orochi!" how would you react?
I personally don't think that Orochi loses just because he lacks feats and quantifiable showings.
He is implied to be very powerful, however, until there are showings towards his level of power, he shouldn't be placed in threads. Unless it's specified that the version of Orochi being used is Orochi exactly as he was in the game.
A character like Pyron is a perfect example of this. Every showing Pyron has, is either him, very small or feats he's able to accomplish simply because he can get very big. He has no feat that actually requires him to put forth effort or use any of his special powers in his true form. Against characters in his known range, a VS would be okay. But against someone like Galactus, where he would need to actually TRY, the thread can't really move passed the starting point. This is because Pyron's never had to TRY to do anything. Orochi's case is even harder because, unlike Pyron, we don't actually know how far away from his full power he actually was.
Hmm... but in Pyron's case at least we have something quantifiable to go with, like the fact he has consumed planets through his life and his true size being 400,000 light years wide already tells you something about how powerful he should be. With this info alone we can already place him above most herald-level characters easily.
Just as an example; if we find out about the existence of a 100 ft tall man it would be easy to deduce the guy is stronger than a normal human even without knowing anything else about him... in virtue of his size alone.
Orochi on the other hand doesn't have anything of the sort to back himself up. I mean... there's nothing in Orochi's backstory that we can look up to deduce how powerful he may be precisely... and what actually matters in this case, there's nothing of concrete that we know about him that would place him above Akuma when it comes to who'd win in a fight.
I think the point still stands, that that aint enough info on Pyron to actually put'im in a thread where he would have to 'work' to win. We don't know enough about'im.
But DS also brings about an example where a lack of feats doesn't matter since story and plot info work just as well, in many cases. Like, how can lil characters like Jedah stand a ghost of a chance against Pyron, a guy who can crush stars at his weakest levels? Well in DS, we know that the souls of evil humans would be hundreds of times more powerful than any star. Thus, Jedah doesn't actually need the feats to survive Pyron when the story implies that he can.
Unfortunately, Orochi aint even got that type of plot information goin for'im.
Well i've agreed with that point before (not knowing enough about orochi to say for sure)... The plot of this story and all that it implies in it's arc is pretty much that orochi is an entity and has some sort of inmeasurable power capable of coming close if not wiping out the entire human race... Never been feats before to show but is obviously somewhat of a threat (at what scale you can be the judge since you always say it's minimal)... The only reason i bring up the 3 sacred treasures is beacause of the mirror used to seal him... If it only took force wouldn't it be done by now? Maybe orochi can be beaten by force, but it still won't make him go away (from what we see in the canon ending of '97) it took a pretty despearate kyo, blood riot iori, to hold him while delivering the final blow, but if it weren't for the mirror, it's strongly implied that, it would only be a matter of time before resurfacing again... So even if these 3 are able to subdue him (according to his nature and prior demonstration of doing so) he'd most likely come back... that can count as a win i suppose but i still see it very obscure... 🙂
Originally posted by Innominate__1That's all hyperbole BS unless there's some in-story record of him doing anything as big or at least comparable to wiping out all of humanity.
Well i've agreed with that point before (not knowing enough about orochi to say for sure)... The plot of this story and all that it implies in it's arc is pretty much that orochi is an entity and has some sort of inmeasurable power capable of coming close if not wiping out the entire human race... Never been feats before to show but is obviously somewhat of a threat (at what scale you can be the judge since you always say it's minimal)...
Originally posted by Innominate__1Depends on what level of force. There's no indication that the Orochi has ever had to deal with anything on the levels of what Akuma can dish out.
The only reason i bring up the 3 sacred treasures is beacause of the mirror used to seal him... If it only took force wouldn't it be done by now?
Originally posted by Innominate__1You'd still have to prove Orochi can return after having his body completely annihilated, because that's pretty much what Akuma's attacks will do to him.
Maybe orochi can be beaten by force, but it still won't make him go away (from what we see in the canon ending of '97) it took a pretty despearate kyo, blood riot iori, to hold him while delivering the final blow, but if it weren't for the mirror, it's strongly implied that, it would only be a matter of time before resurfacing again... So even if these 3 are able to subdue him (according to his nature and prior demonstration of doing so) he'd most likely come back... that can count as a win i suppose but i still see it very obscure... 🙂