Tottenham Riots

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well that I dont agree with.
Thats f**ked up and it does happen.

Youre twice as likely to be stopped as a white guy in a metal tshirt and long hair too, as his short haired suit wearing friend might be also.

So is the black guy in question in the hypothetical scenario wearing gang type clothes with hoodie an cap and listening to "Fu** the police" at full vol blaring from his car with lots of smoke coming out the window, or are we talking Bryant Gumble?

We are talking any black person in London or Nottingham etc. out and about.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
The level of hate towards the establishment and the Police in particular in some areas of society is ingrained and far deeper than the sort of dislike you mean.

Batton rounds are really pretty close range and fired from shotgun like devices, they are not automatics etc. the 6 mice scenario is not realistic as the Police tend to deal with disturbances on mass, one against six would probably inflame a situation firing at them and end up stabbed before he reloaded if they were that much of a threat.

Agreed the cannon might put fires out or as a sentry.

And who do they call when their family members are battered or raped?

Yet weve seen them get outnumbered/thinned out and pounced on on the news over the last few days....but generally, yeah I agree.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
yes I have and yes in their minds they are justified as they have no stake in society and these businesses are part of that society. Nobody has said it is O.K. but it is a justification albeit one you can't get your head around.

so, in your mind, anything a person feels they are justified in doing is thus justified?

where do you draw a limit on that?

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
We are talking any black person in London or Nottingham etc. out and about.

Well that I thinks a little fu**ed up.

But to be fair, some races are more prone to certain kinds of crime.

The white male of 18-35 is more often than not your guy in the line up, in the case of sexual serial killer patterns, for example.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, in your mind, anything a person feels they are justified in doing is thus justified?

where do you draw a limit on that?

A core point.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, in your mind, anything a person feels they are justified in doing is thus justified?

where do you draw a limit on that?

In my mind? In the mind of the perpetrator who has a very different set of values and view of society, yes anything can be justified and to engage in dialogue with perpetrators of acts of people with no stake in society you have to see their justification and where they are coming from to engage in a dialogue. Usually in these situations people have to be met half way, it is rare the majority's world view does more than contain it. As I have already said twice; much of this is opportunistic and the people engaging in this behaviour have taken advantage of the situation, doesn't mean they are not in their minds justified in their actions. That's the thing about cans of worms, once you open one, you need a larger one to put them back in.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
A core point.

hey, careful, we just might not be able to get our heads around that way of thinking

you know, because we love the police and all

Originally posted by inimalist
hey, careful, we just might not be able to get our heads around that way of thinking

you know, because we love the police and all

Now you're just getting upset.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
In my mind? In the mind of the perpetrator who has a very different set of values and view of society, yes anything can be justified and to engage in dialogue with perpetrators of acts of people with no stake in society you have to see their justification and where they are coming from to engage in a dialogue. Usually in these situations people have to be met half way, it is rare the majority's world view does more than contain it. As I have already said twice; much of this is opportunistic and the people engaging in this behaviour have taken advantage of the situation. That's the thing about cans of worms, once you open one, you need a larger one to put them back in.

ok

so, the people who work for major banks in America think they were justified in the actions they took that caused the major economic failure of the united states banking system. In their minds, they did nothing wrong.

would you extend the same moral protection to them? do you then think the bankers who destroyed the world economy were justified in their actions, simply because in their worldview they were?

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Now your just getting upset.

I'm laughing at you, not upset

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm laughing at you, not upset

Originally posted by inimalist
ok

so, the people who work for major banks in America think they were justified in the actions they took that caused the major economic failure of the united states banking system. In their minds, they did nothing wrong.

would you extend the same moral protection to them? do you then think the bankers who destroyed the world economy were justified in their actions, simply because in their worldview they were?

No, because they have a stake in the society they are stealing from. The are not excluded and disenfranchised. This is what I said earlier.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
No, because they have a stake in the society they are stealing from.

so do the people who are burning down police stations...

or do you mean the "perception" of stake? in which case, you have justified all types of terrorism

Originally posted by inimalist
so do the people who are burning down police stations...

or do you mean the "perception" of stake? in which case, you have justified all types of terrorism

It is debateable how much of a stake they have in society.

Most types of terrorism are justified to the perps and I can usually see how they have come to their world view, whether I share it or not.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
It is debateable how much of a stake they have in society.

Most types of terrorism are justified to the perps.

most types of murder are justified to the perps...

Originally posted by inimalist
most types of murder are justified to the perps...

Yes and again I can usually understand the justification.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Yes and again I can usually understand the justification.

you honestly believe that because a person thinks they are justified they are justified?

so like, if I killed your father, but I thought he deserved it, you would agree I was in the right?

Originally posted by inimalist
you honestly believe that because a person thinks they are justified they are justified?

so like, if I killed your father, but I thought he deserved it, you would agree I was in the right?

They are justified to themselves, yes and the more disenfranchised a person is and the less stake they have in society the more likely they are to take action beyond the standard range of any given society.

Did he deserve it? If he did in your mind, you have already justified it to yourself, now you need to justify it to me. If our world views are completely different you will never be able to justify it to me, if you can get me to see your point of view, then yes, I'd agree from your point of view it might be right. It wouldn't stop me hating you from my point of view though, unless I also agreed he deserved it. I would still wish to see you rehabilitated, that's me though.

Edited for redundancy, since question was answered by time of post.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
you have already justified it to yourself, now you need to justify it to me.

ok, then explain the point of view to me where rioting is justified as morally acceptable. whether I agree with it or not, explain how the action is justified, not why the behaviour occured